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Amanpour

The Washington Shutdown: The Crisis this Time; Interview with Dr. Jane Goodall and Dr. Vandana Shiva; Imagine a World

Aired September 30, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

In Washington at this hour, the United States is in imminent danger of a massive self-inflicted wound. While even another more calamitous crisis lurks on the horizon.

We're talking about first a likely U.S. government shutdown where nearly 1 million government workers will be sent home and services impacting all 313 million Americans will be severely disrupted.

The down-to-the-wire drama is playing out even as I speak on Capitol Hill, with the U.S. Senate convening now -- and those are live pictures of the Senate that you're watching.

After the House of Representatives voted this weekend to stop funding the whole government unless ObamaCare or at least funding for it is delayed for a year. Remember, this is a law that the Congress itself passed more than three years ago and it is President Obama's signature piece of legislation.

If the Speaker of the House put a simple funding bill to a vote, it would likely pass, say experts, and the government would be saved from shutting down.

However, Speaker Boehner is being held hostage by about 20 hardliners within his own Republican Party. They oppose Obama and his health care law at all costs, apparently.

And as if this isn't bad enough, the next big crisis is the possibility that Congress will fail to raise the debt ceiling, and that would force the country into default for the first time ever. And that would also have catastrophic financial fallout at home and around the world.

So I'm joined now by a former opposite of President Obama, Judd Gregg was a leading Republican senator and the former governor of New Hampshire. He now accuses his own Republican Party of playing a dangerous game by holding the entire American economy hostage. And he joins me now live from Boston.

Senator Gregg, thank you very much for joining me.

Those are pretty harsh words that you're using against your own party.

JUDD GREGG (R), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, (inaudible) the party. But there are a few people in our party who don't seem to understand the process of governing. We do have a divided government; we don't have a parliamentary system like most European nations. Our system requires that the two parties get together in order to govern. It's called a checks and balance system.

And if one side decides they're not going to -- puts forward a proposal which the other side you know can't ever agree to, then you're not going to make much progress.

Unfortunately, on the other side of the aisle, there really isn't a lot of constructive action happening, either. The president has not negotiated, he's not been in the room. You do need presidential leadership to get things done in Washington.

And so the two sides really aren't, in my opinion, acting in a very responsible way here. And as a result, we're at the brink of this precipice of maybe a government shutdown.

AMANPOUR: Senator, it really is deja vu all over again. We've been here before. What is the consequence of a shutdown? How bad would it be?

GREGG: Well, it think it would be brief. If it occurs on the continuing resolution, which is the resolution which funds the government, that can be turned around fairly quickly, after probably a day or two you would see something occur such as a one-week extension or a three-week extension to try to get everybody back to work and hopefully get people back in a room negotiating.

The bigger problem, as you alluded to in your opening statement, is that in about three weeks, maybe a little less, maybe a little more, we're going to hit a period where there's no more money in the till. And the government has to raise its debt ceiling in order to pay bills and especially to pay its debts.

And if it does not raise its debt ceiling, then you've got a real serious problem on your hands -- it's called default, of course. And that would be very difficult to deal with and I would have a -- obviously significant ramifications for the country and for our fiscal policies.

AMANPOUR: Let me just play a little bit of a speech whereby President Obama said exactly what he would not do in this regard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nobody gets to threaten the full faith and credit of the United States just to extract political concessions. No one gets to hurt our economy and millions of innocent people just because there are a couple of laws that you do not like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So he's basically saying there will be no negotiation over this; he could not set a precedent by giving into blackmail as he's clearly alluding to.

What would happen to the U.S. economy and what would the ramifications be globally if the U.S. defaults on its -- on its obligations?

GREGG: Well, first, I do think the president's being a touch disingenuous there. The debt ceiling has always been a point, a fairly significant negotiation between the parties, especially when the government's been divided. And in fact, the president voted against increasing the debt ceiling as have many other members of Congress. I never did that because I didn't think it was responsible.

But the fact is many members of Congress vote against the debt ceiling increase, assuming it'll pass, usually. And in -- it's not unusual for there to be significant negotiations before a final agreement is reached on raising the debt ceiling.

What the problem here is very fundamental. There are two things which are not negotiable. One is killing ObamaCare. The president's obviously not going to agree to that, that's his signature proposal. And Republicans aren't going to agree to raises taxes. If they're trying to reach an agreement on those two grounds, agreement can't be reached.

But there's a huge area in between those two points such as reforming our entitlement systems or just doing very targeted action in the area of spending restraint that could be accomplished and which could be part of an agreement for increasing the debt ceiling.

As to your specific question, what happens if the debt ceiling were to -- if we were to default on the debt ceiling?

Well, nobody really knows because it's never happened.

But it would be a real shock to the world community if the world currency and the country which stands behind what is basically the world currency in the area are people borrowing Treasuries in order to support their own sovereign debt obligations, if that were put at risk by a default, there's nothing good that would come out of default for the economy of the United States or for the economy of the world.

AMANPOUR: Senator Gregg, I do hear you saying that neither the president nor the Democrats have properly been present and all sides share a lot of blame. And I'm sure you're absolutely right. The American people feel that by wide margins that if a shutdown were to occur, it would be the Republicans' fault, something like 70 percent of the American people feel that.

And a full 80 percent feel that no matter what they're feeling about ObamaCare, they would rather not have that create a government shutdown. They would rather make that go ahead rather than have a government shutdown.

So what is the advantage to I guess the people who I've described as the hardliners in your party to actually pursuing what seems like a fool's political errand?

GREGG: Well, you're absolutely right, I think, in your assessment. The Republican Party would be the loser in a shutdown and it would be the dramatic loser in a default. It's sort of like that line from "Man of La Mancha," where Sancho Panza says, "Where the rock hits the jar, the jar hits the rock, the jar loses. " And in this case, the jar is the Republican Party. So it would be a foolish political action.

Why are people pursuing this? I think they're pursuing it for personal political gain. There's a very small group of folks in our party who are gaining significant national attention and they're raising a huge amount of money, I'll tell you, for their political action committees as a result of taking the stand that they won't agree to a debt ceiling increase or to a continuing resolution unless ObamaCare is put off for a year or repealed, positions which the president clearly not going to agree to.

And they don't appear to be interested in governing, to be quite honest with you. And that's unfortunately right now to some extent, they're influencing the playing field in a disproportionate way.

AMANPOUR: It's really interesting because, as you say, yes, in their own home districts it may be playing very well and amongst their own fundraising group. But nationally, for the party, it's playing very badly and of course that affects what might happen in 2016 for the presidential race.

What do you think or what can you tell us about how the --

(CROSSTALK)

GREGG: There are some who are very --

AMANPOUR: -- yes, go ahead. Go ahead.

GREGG: There are some who are quite cynical, who think that there are folks on the Democratic side who really don't mind a shutdown for a few days because they see that as a political win, running up to the by- elections here next year. It's a cynical view. But there are cynical people on both sides of the aisle, unfortunately.

What we need to do is get the folks who actually want to govern to come together on this and work this out, because it's a very resolvable issue.

AMANPOUR: Well, it's great to hear you say that, because obviously the American people want that. Again, the polls speak to by vast majorities, the American people want both sides to be able to get together to govern and put aside this partisan dysfunction.

So what you can just explain to me could be the fallout on ordinary American lives if the government shuts down?

GREGG: Well, it would depend on how long it occurred for. But clearly basic offices that do the basic business of the government would be closed. It wouldn't affect the military; it wouldn't affect Social Security checks until you got to a default. If you had a default, then everything would be affected, because you simply would have no more cash in the draw to pay anybody.

But in a continuing resolution shutdown, which is what they're dealing with today, the implications would be that things like just the ordinary business of getting an approval for something from the government that you need, getting a passport made, any number of little things that the government affects every day and everyday life of everyday Americans would be put on hold.

AMANPOUR: And before I let you go, Senator Gregg, is this going to happen?

Is the government going to shut down or not? Tonight's the deadline.

GREGG: Well, my view is that it -- you may end up with a one- or two- day shutdown here because of the procedural problems the Senate has of passing anything that comes back to it from the House today with an amendment on it. That could lead to a one- or two-day shutdown.

Now I think the other alternative which isn't really all that better but is better by a small degree is that the House passes a one-week extension here, what's known as a clean bill, a bill without amendments, for a week or something. And they try to negotiate a bigger agreement or a more substantive agreement during that week.

That I would say it's 60-40 on that right now. But we'll know later in the day whether or not the House decides to go the short-term, one-week clean bill or whether they send an amended bill back to the Senate, in which case you'll definitely get at least a two- or three-day shutdown.

AMANPOUR: All right. Senator Judd Gregg, thank you so much for joining me from Boston.

And while Congress fiddles as Washington and the country burns, we'll turn to another manmade disaster that threatens the entire planet. And we'll meet two extraordinary women on the front lines of climate change. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

A major new study from the International Panel on Climate Change, which was published in full today, says scientists are now 95 percent sure that humans are to blame for global warming. The report says there is no longer room for doubt that climate change is happening.

The world's best known primatologist, Jane Goodall, who's famous for her groundbreaking work with chimpanzees in the wild, is sounding the alarm with her program called Roots and Shoots that she wants to use to harness the energy and the idealism of young people to literally save our planet.

Along with Vandana Shiva, one of India's most prominent activists for changes to food and agriculture practices, they fight on tirelessly because scientists say that if we continue like this, climate change will soon be irreversible. I spoke to both of them while they attended an international climate summit in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Dr. Jane Goodall, Dr. Vandana Shiva, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me.

DR. JANE GOODALL, PRIMATOLOGIST, ETHOLOGIST, ANTHROPOLOGIST, AND U.N. MESSENGER OF PEACE: It's a pleasure to be here.

DR. VANDANA SHIVA, INDIAN ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST: Thank you for inviting us.

AMANPOUR: You are attending the International Women's Earth and Climate Summit and presumably that means that there is a certain role for women to play.

Jane Goodall, what is a role for women to play that may or may not be different than a man's role?

Why is it called Women's Summit?

GOODALL: I sometimes wonder why is it that women somehow seem to be so much more concerned -- and maybe it's our traditional role of nurturing and caring for the family and it's so obvious to me -- I keep thinking of the rate of melt of the Arctic ice. And that is terrifying.

And I've been there and I've seen it in Greenland. And if you care about the future of your children, your grandchildren, then I don't know. Maybe women do have a very important role to play.

AMANPOUR: And Dr. Shiva, the disappearance of the summer Arctic ice, I mean, apparently it melts often but then it refreezes. What knock-on effect will it have?

SHIVA: I think the most important effect it's going to have is rising sea levels.

And that means more flooding, more small island nations going underwater, coastal areas of the south Asian subcontinent, India, Bangladesh, which are some of the most densely populated areas, because these were the most fertile areas, the most abundant and generous areas, will now become places from where refugees will have to run.

And can you imagine? The mountains are creating environmental refugees and the coastal areas will create environmental refugees.

Where on Earth will people go?

That's why we are gathering in New York, in the Women's Summit for Climate and the Earth because I really believe the time has come for sanity, for responsibility, for recognizing the rights of Mother Earth, for recognizing a deep science that works in accordance with the laws of Gaia, not the shallow and irresponsible science that works only in the marketplace for profits and power.

AMANPOUR: Well, following on from that passionate statement there, Jane Goodall, what is your reaction then to the reports that we're hearing?

In fact, it's confirmed that the new prime minister of Australia has actually dissolved their climate panel.

And the professor who's been doing this for a long time is chief of that commission, has said, you know, our job was and we have kept politics out of all of our findings. And the Australian public deserve an apolitical, honest accounting of what's happening. And he points out to some of the hottest temperature on record in Australia.

If the new prime minister is dissolving that commission, what does it say?

GOODALL: Well, what it says is what we all know, and that is that industry, corporations have so much power, they have power over governments. And it's the -- you know, we do everything because what matters is the bottom line, the next shareholders meeting. And this is why I'm so passionate about working with young people. It's their future we're messing with.

And it makes me so angry when I look at a small child today and I think how we've harmed this beautiful planet since I was that age.

And it makes me so sad to my soul when young people, like in college, say, well, you know, I feel depressed or I feel angry or I don't care because you've compromised our future. And there's nothing we can do about it.

AMANPOUR: Well ...

GOODALL: And we have --

AMANPOUR: Sorry; go ahead.

GOODALL: No, I was going to say, we have -- we have compromised their future. And it's high time that we get together and do something to help. And hopefully this conference with women, who are the mothers, who are the nurturers and traditionally haven't been the people pushing for the bottom line.

AMANPOUR: I guess that was my next question. You know, the science does seem to be irrefutable. And the latest report that I broadcast earlier is that something like 95 percent or more of the world's scientists now do believe and are in agreement that humans do contribute greatly to global warming.

How do you mobilize young people to do something about this and to protest what's happening?

Vandana?

SHIVA: Yes, Christiane, if you look at some of the data, 40 percent of the greenhouse gases come from an industrial globalized model of farming that uses synthetic nitrogen and emits nitrogen oxides, that uses fossil fuels, puts animals in factories and tortures them, that emit methane.

All of this can be solved immediately by shifting to an ecological agriculture and everybody in the world, the United Nations, UNTA (ph), the IASTD (ph), the FAO (ph), the international labor organization, are recognizing that for every crisis we face today, whether it be the economic crisis of disappearance of work and jobs, or it be the ecological crisis with climate at the center, or it be the food crisis that a billion people are facing, directly for lack of food and 2 billion for lack of good food, healthy food, and they're suffering diseases of obesity, diabetes, et cetera, all of these problems get solved by promotion ecological agriculture on the basis of the science of agricology.

And I think we need a groundswell across the world that creates another paradigm and another world view, and that's where women at this summit are taking the lead to say there's another way of living on this planet, another way of being, another way of thinking. Change your minds, you guys.

AMANPOUR: Indeed. Change your minds, you guys.

What, finally, Dr. Goodall, is your biggest nightmare?

What keeps you up at night over this?

GOODALL: I think what keeps me up at night is that all my life I have loved being out in nature and I see nature shrinking and shrinking as human populations spread, as development takes over areas that once were so beautiful and so clean, forests which protect the quality of the air and of the water are being destroyed.

And I think my worst nightmare is thinking of my own great-great- grandchildren and what the world will be like for them, if we don't change.

And you know, I so agree with everything that you've said, Vandana. And this is why I'm working with the youth and the boys as well as the girls, I have to say they're really important. But when young people get to understand the problems, they're going to be depressed, angry, bitter, violent or apathetic unless they know there's something they can do.

And so our Roots and Shoots program is about helping young people understand and then they themselves choose projects to make things better for people, animals and the environment, and learning to live in peace and harmony with each other, between religions and nations and between us and Mother Earth, because these things are at the heart of everything.

Roots and Shoots is about growing a family of young people who share a philosophy.

And I was talking to one of them the other day, and he said, "What I love is I know anywhere I go in the world, even if I know nobody, if there's a group of Roots and Shoots, I find my family."

And I believe as the children grow up, we will reach that critical mass of young people sharing the right philosophy to follow the path that you're talking about, Vandana.

AMANPOUR: Dr. Jane Goodall, Dr. Vandana Shiva, thank you very much for joining me.

GOODALL: Thank you very much for having us on your program.

AMANPOUR: Wishing you good luck.

SHIVA: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So that was my conversation earlier.

And now while the evidence may be undeniable, for many it remains a distant threat, not an imminent one, an expensive cleanup better left to better times and another generation.

But imagine a world where climate change is sinking an entire nation, one island at a time. Paradise in peril, when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, Russia's President Putin (inaudible) President Rouhani aren't the only world leaders who've just taken to America's op-ed pages. Last week, the president of the Marshall Islands in the Pacific published a chilling SOS in "The New York Times."

And with the results of this latest panel that we've been reporting about, imagine now a world that's survived the hydrogen bomb only to face death by drowning.

For the Marshall Islands, global warming isn't a theory, it is a death sentence. This string of 1,000 coral pearls is home to nearly 70,000 people and its waters teem with marine life.

But as President Christopher Loyad (ph) warned in his letter to "The Times," a three- to six-foot rise in global sea levels is predicted by the end of the century. An existential threat to islands that suffered an unprecedented drought and a devastating tidal wave earlier this year.

And back in 1952, on one of these coral ribbons, the U.S. detonated the first hydrogen bomb, 1,000 times more powerful than the bomb it dropped on Hiroshima. It was one of 67 nuclear tests in the 1940s and '50s.

The Marshall Islands survived -- all of them -- to become an independent nation. But now a manmade threat even greater than the hydrogen bomb leaves paradise clinging to a life raft, waiting for the world to answer its SOS.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always contact us at amanpour.com. And you can follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END