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Amanpour

Sunset for Golden Dawn?; Curing the Curia; Human Impact of ObamaCare; Imagine a World

Aired October 03, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Tonight, tragedy in the desperate quest for a better life, the search for survivors continues after nearly 100 African immigrants drowned when their boat sank off the coast of southern Italy near the island of Lampedusa. As bodies are pulled from the wreckage, many more are feared dead.

The journey from the African coast to Italy is fraught with danger. If passengers survive, too often they are then met with outright hostility in Europe. Greece has seen a rise in racist attacks, many attributed to the far right Golden Dawn, a party with a neo-Nazi following.

Prosecutors are now cracking down on that group, charging the top leadership with running a criminal organization. They're coming down hard ever since last month's killing of an anti-fascist musician. He was stabbed allegedly by a Golden Dawn supporter.

The head of the party, Nikos Michaloliakos, is now in jail, facing charges that include murder, assault and money laundering. He was one of six Golden Dawn MPs who were arrested at the weekend. Other senior members lashed out at waiting journalists as they were released pending criminal charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): They were shouting, "Golden Dawn forever," when police raided the deputy leader's home. They found swastikas and chilling Hitler paraphernalia.

For Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, enough was enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIS SAMARAS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This government is determined not to allow the descendants of Nazis to poison our lives, to commit crimes, to terrorize and to undermine the foundations of the country that gave birth to democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now Golden Dawn are one of Europe's most violent far-right groups. Despite that, the group has support. It is the third most popular party in Greece, with 18 seats in the parliament. But last month, murder has sparked outrage and thousands took to the streets, demanding the party be stopped.

Despite a rash of violence attributed to Golden Dawn, why have the authorities only cracked down now?

Joining me live from Athens is the Greek public order minister, Nikos Dendias.

Minister Dendias, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining me.

NIKOS DENDIAS, GREEK PUBLIC ORDER MINISTER: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So I put that question, why is it only now that your government is taking serious steps to crack down? Some people are saying it took the death, the murder of a white Greek musician to spur you into action.

DENDIAS: Well, it is not accurate that the government has acted just now. Already in the hands of the judiciary, 33 criminal cases do exist.

What (inaudible) change now, what was the cardinal change is that following that murder of the last Pablo Spisas (ph), we were able to establish the full chain of command. So we were able to submit the report to the public prosecutor of the Supreme Court, claiming -- again, I'm saying, for this, the first time, that the Golden Dawn is a criminal organization.

AMANPOUR: Do you think these charges will stick? Already there are some who wonder about the legality of outlawing an entire group and prosecuting it as a mafia organization. And there are others also who are worried that it would backfire and create more sympathy for them.

DENDIAS: Well, our line is clear. It has been defined by Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. What we're just doing is we're asking the judiciary (ph) to implement the law, nothing more, nothing less. Greece has a constitution. Greece has a judicial system that is up to European standards. And the report submitted by the government and signed by myself asked the judiciary to implement the law.

AMANPOUR: I want to put up a graphic that shows some of the troubling developments, racist attacks rising by 20 percent in Greece back in 2012, 154 cases of racist attacks, and the same group says that already this year there have been 104 attacks.

So that's the situation. It's a bad and dangerous situation. And now I want to play for you, Mr. Minister, some tape that CNN acquired of an attack on a Tanzanian community center in central Athens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCIS WILLIAMS, PRESIDENT, TANZANIAN COMMUNITY, ATHENS: They expect that maybe the police could have given us a hand, you know, to at least confront these people and at least arrest some people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But nothing?

WILLIAMS: Nothing, of course, just looking at them and.

So I think that police are part of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So Mr. Minister, I don't know whether you could see that tape, but there's a Tanzanian community leader that says while the mob was attacking their center, the police just stood by and did nothing.

And there are people who accuse the police in the past of actually allowing these attacks or even colluding with them.

What are you doing to root that kind of thing out?

And do you agree with that charge?

DENDIAS: Well, what we have been doing is we have ordered a full- scale investigation by the internal department of the Greek police. And although -- and already that investigation bears fruit. I think nine or 10 cases are already in front of the judiciary. And please allow to me to say that we're a diamond in our target to clean up completely the Greek police, from any racist elements.

AMANPOUR: So do you think that this is going to go forward? I hear you saying there are many cases; the judiciary has been instructed to investigate and you will continue this. And obviously the prime minister was very, very clear that Greeks cannot accept followers of Hitler and the Nazis to be -- to be in this regard.

But they do have seats in parliament, Mr. Minister. Are you concerned? Because as one supporter said, the conditions that brought these people to prominence, which are the unemployment, the severe economic problem, the dislike of immigration, those still exist, those conditions.

DENDIAS: Well, in a way you're right. But please again allow me to repeat that, first of all, the prime minister was clear. We'll go ask for (inaudible) needs. Yes, those conditions do exist and employment does exist in economic crisis does exist. The Greek people, the Greek society is under considerable stress.

But that is no excuse and it will not be accepted as the excuse for the reappearance of a neo-Nazi phenomenon. Neo-Nazism is completely unacceptable. So the Greek society is an open society and a cosmopolitan society. We're going to face our economic problem by going to go out of the crisis eventually and at the same time we are going to protect human rights and the rule of law.

Again, please allow me to repeat: neo-Nazism is completely unacceptable in this country.

AMANPOUR: I hear you loud and clear. And obviously it's worried many people. They've seen all this violence, not just in your country, but even in other parts of central Europe. What do you think about the idea that immigrants feel unsafe in your country?

What can you do to protect them beyond what you're doing in the crackdown now, but in general?

DENDIAS: Well, first of all, we have established a full system of -- a modern system, if I may say so, the most modern system in Europe, which was dealing with illegal immigrants. First we have set up a new asylum service. We have set a new reception service. Together with the IOM in Geneva, we have set a full system of returns, of voluntarily returns.

And on the other hand, we do whatever we can to help those unlucky people. But please, on the other hand, let me be clear on one thing: Greece has a right to patrol its borders and Greece is a European country and Greece cannot become a transit point from -- for illegal migrants that just wish to pass through and go to the European Union. Again, that is also unacceptable.

AMANPOUR: And do you fear a backlash against your crackdown from the Golden Dawn supporters?

DENDIAS: No, Madam, I do not, for a very simple reason, that I believe that the government, the prime minister, has the full backing of the vast majority of the Greek society. I think that many people -- well, many people, I mean a huge amount, but not (inaudible) has voted for Golden Dawn because of the issues you mentioned before, high unemployment and economic crisis.

But on the other hand, we were able to reveal now to the Greek society the true nature of that party, which as I said before, is a criminal organization. And I believe that the following of that party will greatly diminish how the truth become apparent to the Greek society.

AMANPOUR: Well, we wish you good luck, sir; Minister Dendias, thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight.

DENDIAS: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And the sinking of that boat off the coast of Italy and its terrible loss of lives who were longing for a new home prompted the pope to tweet prayers for the victims of the tragic shipwreck in Lampedusa, according to his Twitter account.

And after a break, who is this new pope who keeps pushing the envelope of faith and reform? We'll travel to Assisi, the birthplace of Francis' namesake and we'll speak to a noted Vatican insider as we search for clues to the character and the mission of a pope for our time.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The tragic drowning of nearly 100 African migrants on their way to Italy today deeply moved the leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis, who delivered these strong comments after learning the terrible news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): I cannot mention without great dismay the numerous victims of the latest tragic shipwreck, which occurred today off the coast of Lampedusa. The word that comes to my mind is "disgrace." It is a disgrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: For Pope Francis, this is an issue close to his heart, because in July, he visited the island of Lampedusa to meet with migrants as he condemned the, quote, "global indifference to the refugee crisis."

Francis' mission from day one has been to make service a church priority. And he has just ended a three-day meeting with eight cardinals, who he's asked to reform the Vatican bureaucracy, the curia.

And this week, Pope Francis stirred things up again with yet another frank interview in which he criticized the Vatican's insular ways, quote, "This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around us. I do not share this view and I'll do everything I can to change it."

Now the Italian author and journalist, Marco Politi, is a veteran Vatican watcher. He joins me now from Assisi, where the pope is headed tomorrow.

Marco Politi, welcome back to the program. I see you there in front of the St. Francis Basilica.

MARCO POLITI, PAPAL BIOGRAPHER: Hello to everybody.

AMANPOUR: Marco, let me first ask you about the pope weighing in again about what happened in Lampedusa. This is an issue that is not just close to his heart, but he feels strongly politically about it, doesn't he?

POLITI: Yes, of course. It is very important that his first trip in his papacy was just to Lampedusa because he wanted to underline what was a terrible destiny of people who have to leave their homes, to flee from wars and from conflicts and to try to come to Europe to have work to have -- to find a job, to have better lives.

But in the same time, these people are used and abused by the owner of these old ships, which are really slave merchants who many times just push the people into the water when they come to the coast of Italy.

They don't care if people can swim, how are the conditions of these people. And many times people are coming here dead on the shores of Italy. And now the last tragedy brought Pope Francis just in a very bad situation, he said it's a horror, it's a shame.

AMANPOUR: Yes, we just got a map out and just the desperation of people can be seen by the fact that they get in these rickety boats and travel more than 200 kilometers from North Africa to Lampedusa, trying to get into Italy.

Let me ask you to move on, to the meeting of the reform of the curia. Now this has just wrapped up in Rome and the papal spokesman, Father Lombardi (ph), said that among the things that were discussed was an emphasis on service; he said there was talk about giving the laity more of a function in the church.

And he said that they would not be just -- there wouldn't just be cosmetic touches to reforming this, that it would be really very strong reform.

What do you understand about where this is going, the reform of the bureaucracy?

POLITI: Look, Christiane, here the matter is much more than a reform of the bureaucracy or the reform of the Vatican departments. A real revolution is underway here in the Vatican with the new papacy of Pope Francis. There are four keywords: money, power, poverty and community. Money means that the pope wants full transparence in all financial affairs of the Holy See.

He has already begun with the Vatican Bank. The Vatican Bank is shutting down dozens of suspect bank accounts. They want -- that everything is absolute clear. But there is a lot to do also in other departments of the Holy See.

And power means that the pope doesn't want more; the Catholic Church to be an absolute monarchic system. He wants that the bishops of the world are part of the decision-making process.

AMANPOUR: Let me --

POLITI: He will speak now here in Assisi tomorrow about poverty.

AMANPOUR: Let me just refer to that in this quote, yet another quote that he -- you know, that was quite interesting, from his interview with "La Republica."

He basically said that "heads of the church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy."

I mean, those are pretty strong and fighting words, and they're bound to tick off those who have vested interests in the curia, the very bishops and cardinals who he's surrounded by.

POLITI: Yes, absolutely. He doesn't want the Vatican to be a court. He told the bishops and the cardinals in other moments that they have not to behave like princes of the Renaissance. He tells the priests not to forget when they buy a car about the children who starve because they don't have enough to eat.

Sometimes he has also said that there are disgusting priests who think too much about themselves.

So he wants to reform not only the center of the Catholic Church, but this reform has to go in all places where bishops, cardinals and priests act.

AMANPOUR: Let me just quickly ask you, do you think he 's going to get a lot of pushback? Or are people going to go along with these reforms?

POLITI: Well, people, the believers are really enthusiastic about this pope. The Pope Benedict had a very low consensus. And now the consensus of the people and of the young people especially is very high. But the structure is a big structure and there are -- there is -- it is always difficult to change the structure of an organization which is -- has more than 1 billion of people.

So already there has begun a war behind the scenes against this new pope. And there are many websites who speak very aggressively against him. They say that he's a demagogue, that he's populist, that he speaks too much about poverty, that he doesn't defend the role of the papacy.

AMANPOUR: All right. Marco Politi, very, very interesting days. And we'll follow what happens in Assisi tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining me.

And one can only wonder what the pope thinks about the U.S. government shutdown, because the longer the political gamesmanship goes on, the more it takes a very human toll -- literally -- life and death.

Maybe what's needed is the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln. But unfortunately, visitors to Washington can't even take comfort at his memorial. Government of the people by the people and for the people has been closed until further notice.

and after a break, we'll turn to Dr. Sanjay Gupta. His diagnosis of the very health care law that's causing such apoplexy in the halls of Congress. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The U.S. government shutdown and the pending battle over raising the debt ceiling has caught the attention of world leaders now. Today, Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, and a frequent guest on this program weighed in to warn of a default catastrophe, calling an immediate resolution, quote, "mission critical."

And the U.S. Treasury Secretary also has warned that any default would trigger a 2008-style economic meltdown or even worse.

President Obama went on the road to Maryland, warning business owners of the damaging costs of this shutdown debacle.

And all of this because of the GOP's implacable resistance to ObamaCare, a law that's already been enacted and that, after all, only starts to bring the U.S. partially in line with international health care norms.

As the politicians battle it out, the American people are signing up for ObamaCare in droves. Its website was inundated by millions of visitors, far more than the government had anticipated, and that site was plagued by malfunctions from the very start.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is on a bus tour across America to diagnose ObamaCare's launch. He, too, is in Maryland today, and I got up with him earlier on his stop in Baltimore.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Sanjay Gupta, welcome. Good to see you out there on your bus tour.

What have you found regarding people and ObamaCare?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: A few months ago, if you were to ask people how many people are likely to be interested in this, how many people will sign up, they estimated -- some estimates were that only two people in the entire state of California may actually do this. I can tell you here in Maryland, just over the last seven hours, more than 1,000.

So there's a lot of interest here. There were some glitches in the beginning ,but that seems to be getting sorted out.

AMANPOUR: So, Sanjay, can we sort of sum up by saying -- would this be accurate, that despite the incredible, ferocious resistance and controversy ObamaCare inspires amongst the politicians, the people who need it are actually going up to sign up for it?

GUPTA: I think that that's very fair. And you know, when people -- the people who need it are these 40 million to 50 million people who are uninsured, about 15 percent to 17 percent of the population. They are the people who need.

And Christiane, you probably heard these polling numbers. They polled the country and they say what percentage of people think they will benefit from it? The number that comes back: 17 percent. It actually fits perfectly with the number of people who are uninsured, have not been able to get insurance for some time.

So yes, those people seem to need it and seem to be able to find it, already starting to find it.

AMANPOUR: And now what is the shutdown having in terms of an effect on people in health effects or whatever?

GUPTA: Simple things like flu shots. The CDC had to stop the distribution of flu shots. Maybe people think that's a big deal; maybe they think it's not. It's kind of a big deal. I mean, 35,000 people a year die of the flu in the United States.

Food inspections, this is another big one. You have these food outbreaks; we make a lot of news about them when they occur because 6,000 people died of a foodborne illness. Many thousands get ill every year. Food inspections in many places have come to a halt.

Potentially a big deal. And I talked to Tom Friedan, Dr. Tom Friedan, who's head of the Centers for Disease Control and even the idea of investigating potential infectious disease outbreaks to make sure they don't become bigger, more rampant, more widespread, he said that he's had to not shut that down but really tailor that back significantly.

And these are things that could have a significant impact on the health of Americans.

AMANPOUR: It really is terrifying. And of course I saw the CDC tweets regarding no flu shots. That does obviously affect as you said, so many people. If it carries on for a couple of weeks or more, what kind of impact can you foresee?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I -- if you look at hospitals, for example, especially hospitals that are dependent on federal funds, oftentimes the people don't always realize that these -- some of these same hospitals, these big academic hospitals that do get money from the federal government are often the hospitals that do research, train residents for the future and take care of the sickest patients.

Research, training the future and taking care of the sickest patients. And oftentimes they are -- they are somewhat dependent if not entirely dependent on these federal dollars.

I've talked to some of my colleagues and those academic hospitals, the pinch hasn't been felt yet in large part because there is redundancy that's built into these systems, reserve, if you will, in terms of dollars. But again, if this carries on, eventually that money's going to run out. And these three things, these three pillars, if you will, of health care are going to be dramatically affected.

So I don't know how you -- I don't know how it sustains itself weeks and months down the line.

AMANPOUR: It's an incredible story. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much for really putting the human face on it and how this shutdown is affecting people's very lives. Thanks for joining me from Baltimore.

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AMANPOUR: And now finally tonight, imagine a world where a forward looking pope looks back to the Middle Ages for inspiration. Pope Francis, as we said, is scheduled to travel to Assisi tomorrow.

That's the birthplace of his namesake, St. Francis. And there in the ancient basilica, the pope is expect to reiterate his call for a poor church for the poor. Echoing beneath the magnificent Giotto frescoes, it is the same message that St. Francis delivered to the world eight centuries ago: humility in the service of humanity.

And perhaps nothing says it better than the peace prayer long attribute to St. Francis. And in the wake of the tragedy and the dysfunction that we've reported on tonight, some of St. Francis' prayer are words indeed to live by today.

Quote, "Where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy."

That's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always contact us at amanpour.com and follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

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