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Amanpour

Somalia Raid; Raid on Libya; Dysfunction in D.C.: What Does the World Think?; Imagine a World

Aired October 07, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. While the United States government remains shut down for the seventh straight day, the U.S. military is very much open for business.

Two raids against terrorist targets in two African nations had two very different outcomes at the weekend. But are they saying the same thing about changing U.S. anti-terror operations? From drones in the air to boots on the ground?

And just as important, what message is the Obama administration sending?

This man is Abu Anas al-Libi, believed to be a mastermind of the Al Qaeda attack on the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania back in 1998. The Pentagon says that he's now being interrogated in, quote, "a secure location outside Libya."

U.S. forces snatched al-Libi in the capital, Tripoli, Saturday morning, and this is the black car that he was dragged from by Army Delta members outside his home.

But 3,000 miles away in Somalia, the plan to catch the Al-Shabaab commander known as Ikrima did not go as planned, and Navy SEALs were forced to retreat under heavy fire.

Al-Shabaab, of course, claimed responsibility for last month's attack on the Westgate Shopping Mall in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi. The militant Islamic group, part of the Al Qaeda franchise, has been expelled from all of the main towns that it once controlled in southern and central parts of the country. But it is still clearly a potent threat.

Joining me from London to talk about all of this is the Somali deputy prime minister, and she's also foreign minister, Fawzia Yusuf Adam.

Ms. Adam, thank you very much indeed for joining me. Welcome to the program.

FAWZIA YUSUF ADAM, SOMALI FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane. Thank you very much for inviting me.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you first and foremost, how on Earth did these Al-Shabaab people apparently have the intelligence and the ability to repel a SEAL Team Six, a Navy SEALs operation, over the weekend?

ADAM: Well, we believe that these were not just Al-Shabaab. This is Al Qaeda. It's a global phenomenon. People from all over the place come there. But fortunately they are in their last leg. They are now diminishing by numbers. The morale is gone. They have -- we have taken back so many areas from them, liberated many people whom they abused and tortured.

So it's their last days and last legs.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Foreign Minister, let me just read you something that you said about them on a trip to Canada. You did, in fact, repeat that they are on their last legs and you did in fact say that they have lost members, lost morale and that "we are not worried about them. We are in control of the situation."

Now I'm asking you this and repeating this because are you really? I mean, they have maintained and mounted very, very spectacular raids. Obviously the Nairobi mall was a complete disaster. And now they're able to repel the most sophisticated, toughest, most successful U.S. Special Forces. Are you sure that they're on their last legs?

ADAM: I believe so. And we all believe so. Al-Shabaab/Al Qaeda has been there for many years and they were in full control before we became the capital city, Mogadishu. And had most of the country. But now they are in very, very small pockets in the country, including that small port where this incident happened.

Al Qaeda/Al-Shabaab are in, as I said, in their last legs because so many of them are giving themselves up. They are fighting themselves among themselves, killing each other. So they're in actually disarray.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister --

(CROSSTALK)

ADAM: Yes?

AMANPOUR: Sorry to interrupt you; let me just ask you a question. It is, nonetheless, a still partly fragmented country. I know there's been a lot of progress. I know the African forces the U.S. helped push them back, as we said. You do have a central government now and let's say the green shoots of stability and democracy are holding.

But these people are still there; they're still after you. Do you feel as a government, as a nation threatened?

ADAM: No, we are not. Actually, you could see me and many other young people who joined us from the diaspora starting their lives back in Somalia. Many businesses are starting. So many people investing. (Inaudible) credentials (ph). And many businesses are being built.

Somalia is coming back and Al Qaeda/Al-Shabaab are diminishing. This global phenomenon is going away from the region, as the Al Qaeda (ph) also finishes.

So we are very hopeful. We have vision and Somalia will be safe and the region will be very safe from Al Qaeda soon.

AMANPOUR: How worried are you? Because again, yes, Al-Shabaab/Al Qaeda franchise was pushed back. But there has since been an explosion of militants and guns and safe havens in places like Libya, for instance.

How much does this spreading franchise around North Africa and obviously still in East Africa, you know, how can you cope with it?

ADAM: We have been in a worse situation. We see the development and the positive actions taken by the AMISOM Vanguard Tank (ph) thru the African Union and to the true contributing countries -- and Ethiopia, who was supporting us with this Al Qaeda/Al-Shabaab. And we are all happy that they are actually out -- almost out of the country.

As I said, they are in very small pockets with regard to the Westgate in Kenya, it's a sad story. We are sorry about it. I'm not sorry because Somalia is not in -- it is Al Qaeda/Al-Shabaab. It is this phenomenon where it's a global enemy, where people should come and unite. Thank God (ph) America is also supporting and has --

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you --

ADAM: -- cooperation with us.

Yes?

AMANPOUR: You talk about American support and cooperation.

As a government, do you accept, do you agree with the U.S. decision to mount that operation? There's obviously been complaints from Libya in the operation the U.S. mounted there.

What is your government's reaction on the Navy SEAL operation?

ADAM: We accepted it. We welcomed it. We are welcoming more if this will help us rid -- get rid of Al Qaeda/Al-Shabaab. We have cooperation and they don't have to ask us because we are fighting a common enemy.

This is what we feel and we are grateful for their support. Otherwise, the whole region will be in turmoil.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister, Deputy Prime Minister Adam, thank you so much indeed for joining me.

And you heard the foreign minister give a ringing endorsement for U.S. intervention. But that is not what we heard from Libya. Question there is also again raising issues about the U.S. military intervening in sovereign nations.

I asked Libya's Prime Minister Ali Zeidan about this very thing when I spoke to him in New York just a couple of weeks ago. I asked him why the U.S. shouldn't snatch terrorists accused of killing Americans there including U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens in Benghazi last year.

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AMANPOUR: Don't you think the U.S. is within its rights to snatch them, grab them and take them?

ALI ZEIDAN, LIBYAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We are in close cooperation with the United States. We arrested some suspects and they are under investigation. And they named some other suspects. Now there have been indictments issued against them, and they are a small number.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Zeidan also said to me that if they did ever find those who are accused of killing Ambassador Stevens, they should go to justice and they should pay for that crime. But as you know, the Libyan government has denounced this intervening to try to get and to get al-Libi, calling it a kidnapping.

So joining me is Daniel Benjamin. He is the former coordinator for counterterrorism at the U.S. State Department. And he's a former U.S. ambassador at large.

Daniel Benjamin, thank you very much for joining me. Welcome.

DANIEL BENJAMIN, FORMER U.S. COUNTERTERRORISM COORDINATOR: My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you first, do you think that the Libyan government did not know? Were they not tipped off?

BENJAMIN: You know, it's very hard to say; the early reports were that there had been consultations between the U.S. and Libya and I know that we have talked about issues like this on many occasions. It's entirely possible that there were discussions.

It's possible that they said OK, we'll turn a blind eye and that the public reaction was very negative. I think we have to take them at their word right now and say that they did not know about it.

AMANPOUR: Of course, CNN did interview the wife of al-Libi, who said to our correspondent there that all she heard was Libyan voices when he was snatched.

But let me ask you about what you just heard the Somali foreign minister, deputy prime minister, say, that she believes Somalia is pretty much free of the terrorist threat, that Al-Shabaab is on the run, has lost morale, is on its last legs.

Do you agree with that assessment? And what can you tell us about the Al Qaeda franchise and its strength in Africa, North Africa?

BENJAMIN: Well, I do agree with her that Al Qaeda is in decline -- I'm sorry; Al-Shabaab is in decline in Somalia. And that's quite clear from the fact that they were really routed by the African Union mission in Somalia, AMISOM. And you know, Al-Shabaab used to control Somalia, much of Somalia, including all of Mogadishu, except a few city blocks.

And now it doesn't control anything in Mogadishu.

That said, the group retains an ability to carry out terrorist operations in the region. It has a very hard time holding territory. And it's much weaker in that regard, but as we saw at the Westgate Mall, it's still able to carry out terrorist acts. And that is, of course, a big concern for everyone in the region.

It's also important to note that countries like Kenya don't have very strong security. And so Al-Shabaab can cause particularly damaging attacks.

AMANPOUR: So the other Al Qaeda franchises outside of Somalia, particularly those emanating from Libya, do you think that the -- as we raise the question, is the United States shifting away from attacks from drones in the air to the unthinkable, boots on the ground?

We've seen that they wanted to capture the Al-Shabaab leader, according to the Pentagon, alive, so that they could presumably get intelligence from him. Is that -- do we see changing tactics?

BENJAMIN: There's been a strong desire to increase the number of captures and increase the amount of intelligence that we can glean from these operatives. You may remember that there was an operative named Warsame (ph), who was seized on the water in the area between Somalia and Yemen.

There was a great deal of intelligence received from that set of interrogations, which I believe took almost two months.

And so there's a really big incentive to do that again. I'm sure that if Washington decided to go ahead with what we would call snatch operation, it was because they thought that it was doable and would have a big intelligence yield. You wouldn't put troops into harm's way unless you thought that you could achieve something like that.

Now having said that, I don't think other means of attack, means of strike are out of the -- out of consideration any more. It simply means that this was going to work in these circumstances. And as we know, SEAL Team Six was surprised by the amount of firepower they encountered and was through.

Undoubtedly, they didn't want to have a huge firefight and a lot of casualties and decided that this was the better way to go.

AMANPOUR: Let's just get back to al-Libi for a moment. You said that he's no doubt being interrogated. And then what? We hear that he could be taken to New York, where he's been indicted. And presumably, I suppose they hope that he's going to cooperate and there will be some kind of -- not only intelligence boom, but a successful prosecution as well.

BENJAMIN: Well, there is an outstanding indictment for al-Libi. And I don't think that the government would have any problem getting a conviction of him, even if he doesn't say anything. Others on the same charges have been convicted. And there is a mountain of evidence against him.

However, it would be nice to get some of the intelligence from him on connections between Libya and the Al Qaeda core in Pakistan, some of the networks that exist across North Africa.

What's going on in the federally administered tribal areas in Pakistan, where he has deep roots, there's a lot to learn from this man and there's the additional fact that the United States never lets these cases die. And it's very important to show that we're going to follow them to their conclusion and that justice will be done.

AMANPOUR: And that was clearly the message also as well as the operation, that the United States was trying to send this weekend. Daniel Benjamin, thank you so much for joining me.

And from one aspect of the American government that is still employed and getting paid, the U.S. military, we will turn to the rest, that is rusting away. Guess who benefits most? The politics of greed and self- interest in D.C., not Tripoli or Mogadishu, when we come back.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. You have reached the executive office of the president. We apologize, but due to the lapse in federal funding, we are unable to take your call.

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AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed, that is what we heard; that is what everybody will hear if they call the White House today. It's an eerie voice recording that who would ever have expected to hear from the seat of the most powerful government in the world.

What has been an unthinkable calamity suddenly got legs this weekend, when Speaker of the House John Boehner raised the specter of a U.S. default when he said Congress won't vote for a simple measure to raise the debt limit. And that could trigger a 2008-style economic crisis or worse, according to the experts.

The world can't get over how dysfunctional D.C. is. But my next guest says America's politicians are actually benefiting from it. Mark Leibovich is the chief national correspondent for "The New York Times" magazine and he spent five years delving into the inner workings of Washington. And he came to a deeply disturbing conclusion.

It's all in his new book, "This Town," and he joins me now from -- where else? That town, Washington.

Mark, welcome.

MARK LEIBOVICH, CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: Thank you, Christine.

AMANPOUR: Now you say the city was meant to be the center of public service is instead teeming with corruption and self-interest, professional incest, greed and all -- I mean it -- is it awful? Is it really that bad?

LEIBOVICH: Well, I mean, it actually is very, very pleasant when you're here. I mean, this is one of the more comfortable places in the country. And I think what people miss when I see Washington being hopelessly divided and dysfunctional is that, in fact, it's helplessly interconnected. And this has become the wealthiest metropolitan area in the United States.

I mean, Washington, D.C., is home to seven of the wealthiest 10 counties in the United States. And this is a combination of the boom around money and -- boom around politics and media and celebrity in politics, which has benefited everyone except for the people who are allegedly being served.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me just put up statistics that show exactly what you're saying. The stunning statistic in your book is about lobbyists; in other words, money. In 1974, 3 percent of retiring members of Congress became lobbyists. Now it's 50 percent of senators and 42 percent of congressmen who do so.

So it really is just one big revolving door.

LEIBOVICH: In a big way. I mean I think what -- I mean, the founders envisioned a system where people would come to Washington, serve for a time and then return to their communities whether their shop or their farm or their medical practice or whatever.

And what you've seen in the last few decades, in part because of the large amounts of money in the system, is that it has become this warm bath where people can just make a living and become permanent political or media figures and brands on their own.

And that has become really the engine that drives a lot of the politics that you see on TV, that you see on TV but ultimately doesn't serve the country well.

AMANPOUR: So let's talk about the current crisis, which obviously is the shutdown and, as we said, something even worse is being raised now, the idea that America will default on its debt.

And that, as every expert has said, could really trigger a terrible global economic crisis.

So your own newspaper, "The New York Times," had an amazing story this weekend, about how in fact this shutdown is not some spontaneous thing that happened at the last moment, but that had been in the workings for years and months and that had been, you know, buoyed by the very money that you're talking about, very rich activists have put a lot of money into toppling the government, shutting it down and trying to topple ObamaCare.

I think people overseas just simply wouldn't have expected that. Tell us a little bit about that.

LEIBOVICH: You know, I think actually a lot of people domestically wouldn't have expected that. I mean, I thought it was an incredibly eye- opening story.

And I think basically -- I mean, like you said, I mean, the illusion of this being a grassroots, spontaneous emotional outburst against the government, in fact, is this systematically very, very well-funded effort by some very, very powerful and wealthy interests that is causing a lot of this. And I really think that that was an eye-opener.

But I also think the other part of this is if you look at the single most influential person in -- on the -- on Capitol Hill right now ,it's Ted Cruz, who has essentially been in office for just a few months.

He has the power of media attention, which itself is governing (inaudible) celebrity, which will probably result in him running for president in 2016 and that in itself becomes a far greater currency than actually accomplishing things, working together, passing bills, levels of experience that used to be what people valued in politics.

AMANPOUR: And of course, that flies in the face of what the American people feel about this, because by wide margins, they did not want this government shutdown even if they didn't like ObamaCare.

But let me ask you about what's being said in the rest of the world. There have headlines flying around like America is flirting with self- destruction.

Do they care or know how this is being viewed overseas?

And do you think this terrible thing of the first-ever debt default, not raising the debt ceiling, is actually going to pass?

LEIBOVICH: Well, I don't know. I mean, I certainly hope that it doesn't. I think the dirty little secret about the world we're talking about which is in Washington, the Washington world we're talking about, is a level of insularity which completely shelters people from what the real sentiments of Americans and also people around the world are coming to think about this.

And what that tells you is that, look, I mean, there is no -- there's nothing as powerful as self-interest in Washington. And people here are doing very, very, very well. All the people who are arguing on TV and who are shouting at each other on the floor of the House and who are writing blog posts, they're all getting paid.

These are not the tens of thousands of people who are being furloughed, who have nothing to do with the people in my book or that you see yelling at each other on TV. So it's part of the broader disconnect that I tried to bring to light.

AMANPOUR: So is there a glimmer of hope? Or is this now, as everybody says, the new normal? I mean, is persistent dysfunction, even the plunging over the cliff of a debt default, are these things that are now just simply going to keep happening?

LEIBOVICH: Well, again, I think self-interest is ultimately the most powerful thing. And if, in fact, they don't raise the debt ceiling and there's this collapse and this calamity that some people are predicting and ultimately people lose a lot of money, the politicians will be punished in a much realer way. And I think that that will ultimately be a trigger that maybe gets something done.

But right now, no. The urgency doesn't exist; and I certainly hope it's not the new normal, but that's -- there aren't a lot of indicators day to day or even in the month to month that would indicate that this is going to change anytime soon.

AMANPOUR: Mark Leibovich, thank you very much indeed, from "The New York Times" and author of "This Town."

LEIBOVICH: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And after a break, imagine a most invincible generation of insurgents. No, not the allies who fought off the Nazis in the World War II, but America's former enemies, the Viet Cong. We'll remember the general who led them and defeated not one but two Western powers. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we've seen how terrorist cells continue to challenge America's military might. Imagine a world where a self-taught soldier wrote the playbook for modern insurgency and used it to defeat two mighty armies.

Vietnam today is planning a state funeral to honor General Vo Nguyen Giap, who died on Friday at the age of 102. But more than a half a century ago, as a history teacher, he joined forces with a former dishwasher named Ho Chi Minh to create a lethal guerilla army.

In 1954, their stunning victory at Dien Bien Phu forced the French out of Indochina. And a decade later, as the Vietnam War raged, General Giap 's guerillas fought the U.S. in jungles, in caves and on television.

A master of propaganda, Giap launched the Tet offensive in 1968. It was a military defeat for Vietnamese forces, but Giap gambled that the American public had had enough of televised slaughter. And his gamble paid off. A year later, U.S. ground forces began to withdraw.

Even in retirement, General Giap remained an icon, whether shaking hands with his old adversary, the U.S. Defense secretary at the time, Robert McNamara, or greeting admirers like Cuba's Fidel Castro and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.

Current U.S. Senator John McCain was a prisoner of war for years in Hanoi, and he recalls meeting Giap while he was still in prison and again in the 1990s when the two countries had normalized relations. McCain says that Giap told him, "You were an honorable enemy."

That's it for our program tonight. And remember, you can always contact us at amanpour.com and always follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

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