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Amanpour
Gaza Cease-Fire: Will it Last?; Liberia's Ebola Battle; Containing Ebola; Imagine a World
Aired August 26, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: beheadings, brutality and mortal threats. But should the West team up with Syria's
Bashar al-Assad to defeat ISIS? No way, says my guest tonight, the U.K.'s ambassador to the United Nations.
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SIR MARK LYALL GRANT, U.K. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The reality is that this is a monster that Frankenstein of Assad has largely created.
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AMANPOUR: Plus a monstrous virus, Ebola, as Liberia now struggles to rein in, I speak to the man who helped discover it 40 years ago.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
After 50 days of fierce fighting that has killed more than 2,000 people in Gaza and 69 in Israel, tonight officials announced a cease-fire. People
celebrated the news in the streets.
But how long will this truce last? One thing's for sure: the U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon tells me that this will be the last chance to
rebuild the devastated Gaza Strip.
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BAN KI-MOON, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: There's no point of building when they are continuously destroying. So we have built and they have destroyed
and built and destroyed. This should be the last time that we build.
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AMANPOUR: And while that conflict in the Middle East may be taking a time out, another one could be ramping up. After sitting on the sidelines in
Syria for the past three years, the United States may now be getting ready to confront ISIS there, possibly with airstrikes, now that President Obama
has authorized surveillance flights over the country.
Britain has issued a severe terrorist warning, saying that it's just a matter of time before ISIS attacks the West. And today, I asked the
country's ambassador to the U.N., Sir Mark Lyall Grant, whether there was now a will to confront this menace.
But I started by talking about whether the latest Gaza truce could actually lead to resuming proper peace talks to resolve that age-old conflict, talks
which abruptly broke down just before the latest outbreak of war.
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AMANPOUR: Ambassador Lyall Grant, welcome to the program.
GRANT: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Do you think there's any hope of serious negotiations after this cataclysmic war that's lasted nearly 50 days or more?
GRANT: I think there is. There, out of a crisis, comes an opportunity. And I think there is a realization that there needs to be a dialogue. But
we've seen truces before; we seen cease-fires before.
So what is important is that this one is actually implemented and that it is sustainable. And I think for it to be sustainable, it has to have some
substantive elements in it. And I hope we will see that there are some security guarantees for the Israelis, that there are guarantees for the
Gazans, that they will be able to undertake economic activity, that Gaza will be opened up and that there will be some form of monitoring and
verification mechanism to ensure that the international community can track this cease-fire and log any abuses of the cease-fire and ensure that it
becomes sustainable.
Because just the cease-fire, if it gets us back to the status quo ante, is not going to provide a long-term solution to the crisis.
We need something that is, A, sustainable and, B, acts as a bridge back into serious status negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and
Israel.
AMANPOUR: The secretary-general of the U.N., Ban Ki-moon, told me on this program yesterday that, yes, the Gaza would probably be reconstructed by
the international community but that this would probably the last time. He said we cannot keep reconstructing in order for it just to keep getting
blown up again.
Does that resonate with you?
GRANT: It does. And we have to make this cease-fire a sustainable one because otherwise we will be wasting money. We'll be rebuilding Gaza and
I'm sure that my country, the United States also will be very generous in supporting the reconstruction of Gaza and that is necessary.
But if it's all going to be torn down again in a few years' time, what's the point? We have to move on from this situation, this cyclical crisis,
into something that is more sustainable.
AMANPOUR: Let's move on now to another major challenge for Britain and for the West and for the region, and that is ISIS. Let me read for you
something that your foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, said most recently.
"ISIS is turning a swathe (sic) of Iraq and Syria into a terrorist state as a base for launching attacks on the West. Unless they're stopped sooner or
later they will seek to strike us on British soil."
That is clearly a big worry for your government. Will the U.K. join the United States in its current attacks on ISIS? They're happening now in
Iraq.
GRANT: We are not involved in a -- in a combat role and my government has made very clear that we're not planning to put boots on the ground in Iraq
or Syria. But we are heavily engaged, using military assets, not only on the humanitarian relief with aid drops, et cetera, in Mt. Sinjar in recent
days, but also in helping to transport equipment and ammunition, both to the Iraqi government and to the Kurdish regional government.
So we are heavily involved by we're not currently planning airstrikes and certainly not any boots on the ground.
AMANPOUR: There seems to be -- and there is -- a lot of debate right here in England about how to deal with jihadis going from here to there,
something like 500 have already gone; they say something like 20 per month are evading control to go to ISIS.
What about when they come back? Some have suggested strip them of their citizenship. Some have suggested presume them guilty until they're proven
innocent. Some have suggested reimpose the control laws in Great Britain to really tag them, even without a trial.
Where do you think Britain is going to land in how they deal with these jihadis, going and coming back?
GRANT: There are a number of issues here. I think the main focus needs to be preventing people leaving the United Kingdom to go and fight so-called
jihad in Syria or Iraq. And there the government has done a number of things. It can take away passports. It can take down radical extremists,
Internet sites that are recruiting. It can work with the imams in the mosques who may be inciting and radicalizing Muslim youth in the United
Kingdom.
So there's a number of steps to be taken when people go, before they go, to stop them going.
When they come back, there are some challenges. Does one take away their passports and prevent them coming back into the country and make them
stateless? Obviously that has legal connotations and is very difficult.
But the government is looking at all the options of finding a way of preventing further radicalization of British Muslim youth but also
protecting ourselves from potential terrorist threats from youth that is already radicalized and may be returning to the U.K. from these areas.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador, let me ask you about the United States stepping up its airstrikes, potentially into Syria.
Do you see a shift in that?
And I ask you because of the news of the surveillance flights over Syria, the fact that General Martin Dempsey, the top military commander has said
that ISIS must be confronted on both sides of what is now actually a non- existent border, both in Iraq and Syria.
Do you foresee greater action by the United States in Syria, airstrikes against ISIS?
GRANT: That is possible. It is true that ISIS does straddle both Iraq and Syria. Therefore, they do need to be confronted bought in Iraq and Syria.
As you say, the United States has taken a decision to have surveillance aircraft crossing over into Syria. As I understand it, no decision has
been taken on airstrikes. But I can understand why that is currently under review.
AMANPOUR: The Syrians have said, hey, let's all work together and combat ISIS.
Is that a starter for Britain, for the United States?
Are you going to believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend? And work with Assad?
GRANT: No. We have to be very clear about where Bashar al-Assad stands in that, in this problem. The reality is that Assad is very largely the cause
of the problem. He is certainly not the solution to the problem. There is a lot of evidence of collusion between ISIS and the Syrian regime. The
Syrian regime has been pleased to see ISIS build up its strength in Syria because it has been able to attack mainly the more moderate opposition, the
armed moderate opposition.
And the reality is that this is a monster that the Frankenstein of Assad has largely created. So he is certainly not the solution to this problem.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador, has the British government identified the killer of James Foley?
GRANT: I can't answer that question straight out. Clearly we're working very closely with the American authorities on that. I don't want to say
more on air about it.
But clearly it is really important that we do find who is responsible for this brutal act. And that that person is brought to justice. And we will
do everything we can working with the U.S. authorities to make sure that that happens.
AMANPOUR: We'll keep watching as this develops, Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, thank you very much for joining me from the U.N.
GRANT: Thank you very much, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And while the brutality of ISIS terrifies people in the Middle East and the West, in Africa, one word is even scarier: Ebola. Dr. David
Heymann was one of the first to identify the deadly disease in the 1970s and do battle with it. And after a break, I'll ask him if it's a fight
that can be won.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Ebola is still stalking West Africa five months after what is now the worst outbreak in history began in Guinea. In neighboring Liberia, more than 570
people have died, making that the highest number of deaths in any one country.
It is so bad there that local health officials have resorted to music to educate people. "The Ebola Rap" is one of the most popular songs playing
on the radio right now. Its lyrics are aimed at teaching people how to help prevent the virus from spreading, as the country struggles to contain
it.
Liberia's information minister Lewis Brown joins me from the capital, Monrovia.
Welcome to the program, Minister. And let me start first by asking you, do you feel anywhere close to breaking the back of this contagion in your
country?
LEWIS BROWN, INFORMATION MINISTER, LIBERIA: Well, let's just say, Christiane -- and thank you for having me -- we will do believe now that we
are best positioned than we've been in a couple of months to be able to get a handle on this and hopefully to eradicate it from our country.
AMANPOUR: You know, obviously there's been a certain amount of criticism of the government, of president, for a slow start and a slow response.
How are you working now?
What are you doing that's different today than it was maybe a few weeks ago?
BROWN: Many things: many things we're doing differently. First of all, we now have a clearer understanding of this disease, how it spreads. The
second thing is that given the way we've operated before we now have a bit more coordinated. There's now a higher level of response have been
coordinated at the level of the international community.
But on the ground itself, we are returning more and more ownership of dealing with this problem to community leaders, communities themselves,
beginning with West Point and Dolo Town and it -- that model has now been spread across the many other communities.
We're pleased with what we're seeing already since communities have begun to take ownership of this fight.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me just say, since you mentioned, West Point, the slum area in Monrovia, that is under some kind of a quarantine and yet that has
caused an amazing amount of hardship and difficulty. And experts are saying that mass quarantine is not the way to do it. Isolation of those
infected and those who've been in touch with them and in contact with them is the way to do it.
Why are you quarantining?
BROWN: Well, we heard these experts speak about it from far off comfort areas. But the truth of the matter is we're not just fight a disease in
isolation; we're fighting the disease with people we know. We're fighting cultural, long held cultural practices and beliefs. And certainly we're
not the most enlightened society in the world. And we're trying to bring every tool imaginable to bear in helping our communities help themselves.
And so as you will be able to determine in West Point, and your team might be able to go in there and see the place has been returned to calm, the
people have taken ownership based on what we've done. And if quarantine was not the solution, certainly we believe it has catalyzed it. People in
West Point have not been able to break themselves down into seven different zones and blocks comprising each of those zones. Now they have not just
taken ownership, they're working with health teams. Health teams feel now that they are in control of the outbreak in West Point and doing the best
they can to give the people of West Point -- and, indeed, the people of Liberia -- the kind of help they so desperately need.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, just to focus on that, you know, our team has been in there and has seen lots and lots of people who are in rather unsanitary
conditions, not much running water. So there is still a great big lack. I am sure you would agree with that.
But can I also you ask -- also ask you, because part of this is messaging, as you said. Part of it is education. There are reports that the
president has fired and disciplined a number of officials and ministers who've been abroad and refused to come back out of fear of this disease.
Is that true? And what exactly is the situation?
BROWN: Well, yes. We can have a good president ordered all those who are members of the executive branch to be able to return home to Liberia and to
be able to join in this fight. It is truly a difficult fight. We need all hands on deck. We need all those expertise to align behind this fight as
best as we can.
And so many have not returned. And the president has done what many expected that she would do. She warned that if people did not return time
enough, that it would be -- there will have been considered to have abandoned their jobs.
And so she has gone on now, the sequelae (ph), the time has expired. And she's acted properly by dismissing those individuals.
AMANPOUR: All right. Minister Lewis Brown, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
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AMANPOUR: And local health workers on the front line of the battle with Ebola, some in many countries are understaffed and overstretched.
But my next guest says that it's not too late to stop its spreading.
Professor David Heymann co-discovered Ebola in the 1970s and he says despite a slow start tackling it, it can still be stopped with simple but
effective procedures.
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AMANPOUR: Professor Heymann, welcome to the program.
DAVID HEYMANN, PROFESSOR & SCIENTIST: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Liberia is obviously having a huge problem struggling to contain this Ebola.
What is it that they should be doing?
HEYMANN: Well, you know, it's not a secret what needs to be done with Ebola. There are three things that need to be done. Patients must be
identified, isolated and health workers must protect themselves as they take care of these patients so they don't become infected or spread
infection to others.
The second is that all contacts of patients should be traced, should be put under what's called fever surveillance, which means taking their
temperature twice a day. If they develop temperature, they're then put into a place where they can be diagnosed and if it's Ebola, they're put
into the Ebola ward.
And the third is community understanding about the risks of how they could become infected and how to protect themselves.
AMANPOUR: It's taken the infection of a couple of Americans to actually mobilize attention in the highest levels of certainly the United States.
Why is there no prevention? Why is there no drug for this?
HEYMANN: Well, there has been investment by the United States in developing vaccines and developing drugs and also monoclonal antibodies.
That's been grants to private sector. But there's no market for these in Africa. And it's actually very difficult to test these drugs because you
must have a epidemic in which to test them.
So these drugs have -- and vaccines and the antibodies have gone through certain animal studies and shown to be effective in animals. And now
they've been used, for example, in the Americans, the monoclonal antibody hasn't been used. And hopefully more of these experimental drugs that have
been shown to be effective in animals can be used at the outbreak site in clinical trials that will tell whether or not they're effective.
AMANPOUR: This is a poor people's disease. And therefore the poor people in Africa are not getting the investment in the drugs that may, in fact,
save their lives.
HEYMANN: Well, you know, Ebola has spread into Europe in the past, into Switzerland. And in Switzerland, it was rapidly contained in a hospital
and there were no other infections.
In fact, it wasn't even known it was Ebola; it was a fever from an African country. And it turned out to be Ebola. Nobody else was infected. Where
there's good hospital infection control, there's not a risk that this disease will spread.
But for Africa, and in getting medicines, there are some things that the African nations could be trying now if they decide to do that. One of
those is to look at the blood of those people who have been survivors, taking the blood from those persons, taking the antibody from that blood
and providing that antibody to patients who are ill in the hopes that any antibody would be successful in stopping the infection.
It's a very difficult thing to do in the middle of an epidemic. But it is possible. I myself after the first outbreak stayed around to collect
convalescent bloods for 2.5 months from survivors. And that was stockpiled in Europe until it was -- sorry; it was stockpiled in Africa until it was
no longer effective. And then it was no longer used.
But this is something that the African countries could be trying now. And it's something that we would suggest that they consider.
AMANPOUR: This is the worst outbreak of Ebola that's been recorded. How long do you think it's going to take to break the back of this?
HEYMANN: Well, you know, this outbreak began because the initial response was not robust enough. But it's not good to look backwards; it's good to
look forward now. And what we see now is that the World Health Organization is really stepping up to coordinate activities, especially
within countries where they have now strong WHO coordinators and hopefully this will help the NGOs and other groups who are working in these
countries, better work together, better fill the gaps of what needs to be done and stop this epidemic.
It's very difficult to predict when this epidemic will stop. It depends on how good the activities are, how effective they are in containing the
outbreak. And that depends on how well people work together and trust within the communities where the disease is occurring.
AMANPOUR: How scared should we be?
How scared are you about this, the worst outbreak of Ebola?
HEYMANN: Well, I'm scared because this is a very horrible outbreak for the African continent. It's very terrible to see people dying each day because
there can't be a coordinated response within the country, because there's distrust, because people don't understand. And it's going to take a major
effort of the NGOs and the groups that are trusted by countries, such as the Red Cross and others, to really step in and help do this job.
But I'm not afraid for my in Europe or in North America. But I am afraid for the Africans who are, again, suffering from a very difficult disease in
a very difficult situation.
AMANPOUR: Professor Heymann, thank you very much for joining me from Geneva.
HEYMANN: Thanks very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And while the disease threatens to spread, we take a look at two other apocalyptic scourges, war and conquest, that continue to plague the
planet.
Amid mounting tensions over Ukraine, all eyes were on Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko at a summit of
regional leaders in Belarus today. And while the two came close enough to exchange a brief handshake, they still remain miles apart on the matter of
war and peace. And what about the ordinary people actually caught up in the crossfire? The tragic face of war when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, the numbers tell only part of the story of life in Eastern Ukraine, where the United Nations reports more than 2,000
civilians and combatants have been killed since April, which is an average of 60 per day.
Meantime, hundreds of thousands of people have fled their homes to escape the fighting. Now imagine a world where war is also numbered in the
unforgettable faces of those who remain. These patients wait in the basement of a hospital that was damaged by artillery fire in the rebel-held
city of Donetsk. This woman holds the hand of her sick friend in that same hospital basement, offering comfort as the fighting rages on above them.
And up there on the streets of dying cities like Luhansk, critical shortages of basics like running water, food and electricity vie with the
indiscriminate shelling to create a humanitarian crisis with no end in sight right now.
The battlefields may change from Ukraine to Gaza to Iraq and Syria, but the wounded faces of wounded lands can only cling to each other as the killing
goes on.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from London.
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