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Amanpour

Afghanistan's Dangerous Deadlock; Fighting Assad, Fighting ISIS; Exploring the Ming Dynasty; Imagine a World

Aired September 18, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: live in Edinburgh and in a three hours polls will close in the historic Scottish

independence vote and the fate of Great Britain hangs in the balance while across the world in Afghanistan, another major election is still

dangerously undecided five months after voters first went to the polls.

When will that country have a new government? I ask their ambassador to the United Kingdom and also coming up arming the Syrian opposition, the

ground troops against ISIS. The former commander of the Free Syrian Army will join me.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, live tonight from historic Edinburgh Castle here in

Scotland, the most important vote in 300 years of this union is underway and the fate of the United Kingdom of 64 million people lies in the hands

of 5 million Scots who are deciding yea or nay to staying in or separating out into an independent state.

Now while the polls are open for the next three hours, there are strict reporting restrictions here.

So what we say cannot influence voters. But a huge turnout was expected and as I found at one polling station here, the voters are fully

engaged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt excited. I felt privileged to be allowed to vote.

AMANPOUR: How did it feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It felt very good to be able to participate.

AMANPOUR: Why is it important to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This one is important (INAUDIBLE) change all these years united and we don't know what (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's pretty crazy but I'm glad it's over. Very excited to see the result tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's the future. It's our future and it's important we (INAUDIBLE) right decisions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because this is forever and that's the scary thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Scary maybe, but it's a peaceful vote through a legal referendum. And while we await these results, across the world in

Afghanistan, there is fear the nation really could spiral into violence again unless the two main presidential candidates can break their deadlock.

Every single vote was recounted after presidential candidate Abdullah Abdullah alleged massive fraud against his rival, the camp of Ashraf Ghani.

That was after the June runoff.

And the Taliban appears to be growing emboldened as the United States prepares to end combat operations there later this year.

Mohammad Daud Yaar is Afghanistan's ambassador to the U.K. and he joins me now from London.

Ambassador, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me.

MOHAMMAD DAUD YAAR, AFGHANISTAN'S AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me now.

AMANPOUR: So look, elections everywhere, none more important perhaps right now than in your country.

Is there any sense that this deadlock is anywhere near being broken and you can have a new president?

YAAR: I'm personally very, very confident that there will be a solution. As you know, consensus building is a difficult process,

especially in a native democracy has its own difficulties. But we are on the right track today. The president met with leading figures of the

country and tomorrow these figures, these leading personalities are slated to talk to both candidates to encourage them to reach a final agreement as

soon as possible.

And the fact that --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Well, Ambassador --

YAAR: -- yes?

AMANPOUR: -- yes, I'm sorry to interrupt, but, Ambassador, we've heard this many, many, many weeks now that soon, as soon as possible, this

is going to be resolved. We understand that the recount has happened. But it's not being made public. It's over and it's done until both the

candidates can decide on their -- some kind of unity government.

Can you tell us what is the key thing holding it up?

YAAR: Well, it's a very complicated process. It contains a lot of intricate issues that are related to the functioning (ph) or

functionability (ph) of the new setup and also the constitutional framework that we have have to be observed.

The fact, in my opinion, the fact that the two candidates are taking more time to talk about this is a good sign. It means that the harder they

discuss things and the more foresight they use in this process, the easier it will be for them to work together and so that a functional, effective

government for the future.

If they do not take it seriously and they go into it without forethought, I'm afraid that things will be more difficult and bumpy in the

future.

AMANPOUR: Are you hearing some of what we're hearing that's being leaked from Kabul that actually Ashraf Ghani is going to be declared the

person who did actually have the most votes?

YAAR: Well, what you have heard is exactly what I have read and heard. It seems that he's the leading candidate. But as you know, now

that we will have national unity government, that is a less important issue than the agreement between the two, how to work together and set up an

effective government that not only observes the stipulations of the constitution, but also what efficiently to deal with the challenges that we

face.

We face many, many challenges at the moment and hopefully this new government will be able to set up an effective team to take on these

challenges that we face.

AMANPOUR: Well, one of those challenges actually is money and we've seen a lot of tweets come out of the office of Samantha Power, the U.S.

ambassador to the United Nations. There are Afghan officials there right now. And we understand that you've got a shortfall of some 100 -- or

rather half a billion dollars and you need to pay your bills and you need that money right now.

Where is that money going to go?

And do you think you're going to get it?

YAAR: Yes. Well, to tease you, money is always a problem anywhere. It's not only in Afghanistan, but I think the international community with

the kind of commitment that we have on the table from the international community, I'm sure that we'll overcome this and the financial difficulties

will go away.

Once the certainty of a new, effective government is in place, I'm sure that money will start flowing in and investment will come in and also

the restraint that has been put on expenditures, under private sector, will be taken away and the economy will again start to embark on a way to

growth.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador, we also understand obviously that a huge, huge risk is the Taliban and more violence. And this uncertainty, we

understand, is emboldening them and they are potentially in sight of taking large parts of Helmand again.

How serious is a Taliban revival now while you don't even have a government to deal with it?

YAAR: Well, I think, if you look at the short run, the short run or short frame of time, the Taliban see an opportunity in the uncertainties

that we face today.

But in the medium term and long term, we all know, they know that the commitments of the international community and the commitment of the Afghan

people themselves is strong enough to prevent any plans that they may have. And I personally am confident that once the new government is in place,

their false expectations will go away and they will realize that the only way for them to be successful is to engage in negotiations and

reconciliation.

AMANPOUR: And finally, these are two very good men, Abdullah Abdullah and Ashraf Ghani, are very well known, moderate, Western-looking, they've

worked in government before.

Do you believe that they can engage and they will engage in this power sharing or national unity with one president and somebody deemed chief

executive?

Will that work?

YAAR: I think they do. They have the political foresight, the technical capacity and the experience to be able to work together

effectively. And on the other side, there's no other choice. Anybody who is in political nowadays in Afghanistan, they know that there's no other

choice except national unity government, that functions on the basis of a broad-based consensus. And this is what they are trying to do. And the

president -- President Karzai has been trying very hard to make this happen. And I'm hopeful that his intervention will bear positive fruit.

AMANPOUR: Thank you so much, Mohammad Daud Yaar, Afghanistan's ambassador to Great Britain.

And even in the United States presence in Afghanistan, in your country, is winding down, the United States Congress now is voting to arm

and train the Syrian opposition to help fight against ISIS, who, in just the past 24 hours, have captured yet another 16 Kurdish villages in the

north of Syria.

General Salim Idris, former chief of staff of the Free Syrian Army, joined me from inside Syria to explain how the FSA could take on both Assad

and ISIS against seemingly overwhelming odds.

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AMANPOUR: General Idris, thank you for joining me from Syria.

Do you believe that the weaponry, the training that America says it wants to now give the FSA will make a difference? How much do you need?

How much training do you need?

GEN. SALIM IDRIS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, FSA: (INAUDIBLE) because the majority of the fighters (INAUDIBLE) and they must be trained and fully

equipped. And they need support. And now we have (INAUDIBLE) FSA (INAUDIBLE) that I don't have any (INAUDIBLE) of position now.

But I know that we, the FSA, will have a large number of fighters who are ready to fight, more than 10,000 now are ready in the (INAUDIBLE) of

Aleppo and (INAUDIBLE) of Idlib. And we are able to train more 5,000, it will be great.

But 10,000 fighters will be ready to fight against ISIS and the (INAUDIBLE) to fight against the regime. It will be very difficult

(INAUDIBLE) train 5,000 in the actual time.

AMANPOUR: General Idris, you know the United States -- and actually many Arab allies -- do not want you to fight Assad, the regime ,for the

moment. They want the moderate forces to fight against ISIS.

Is that something the FSA is prepared to do, abandon the fight against Assad for the moment and just concentrate on ISIS?

IDRIS: (INAUDIBLE) is impossible to stop fighting against Assad regime because the regime is bombarding the villages. They've been

bombarding the cities and using chemical weapons against the civilians and we can't now stop fighting the regime and fight only against ISIS. This is

a very difficult problem.

I understand that maybe (INAUDIBLE) in the supporting countries, they (INAUDIBLE) FSA fighters and those military fighters now concentrate

fighting against ISIS.

But what about (INAUDIBLE)? The main role of the revolution is to collapse the regime. And if we accept now that we are going to fight ISIS,

who can ensure us that the regime will not bombard the cities, will not attack the houses of the FSA?

Nobody can give us any (INAUDIBLE) insurance. (INAUDIBLE) and then even if we have insurance that the regime will not attack the (INAUDIBLE)

of FSA, (INAUDIBLE) stop fighting against the regime because the main problem is that (INAUDIBLE) Damascus.

AMANPOUR: Do you want the U.S. to bomb ISIS targets?

Do you want the U.S. to put ground troops on the -- on the ground there?

IDRIS: Honestly, I think we don't need ground troops from any country in the world. We are able, if we receive enough support, to fight against

ISIS. We recognize that it is important to (INAUDIBLE) of ISIS. But really, in Syria, we don't need ground forces. We don't need ground forces

from the Western countries or from the international community.

Just support, train, organize. And this is very important point and very important issue to organize the groups and (INAUDIBLE) who are now

fighting and to build a kind of (INAUDIBLE) army because they are working and fighting now by different groups.

There is now a chain called command and control and that is very important. We need to organize them, to build a regular army which

(INAUDIBLE) command and that will be (INAUDIBLE) in fighting against the regime and against ISIS.

AMANPOUR: General Salim Idris, thank you very much for joining me.

IDRIS: Thank you. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So a huge task ahead there.

And while the national identities of Scotland and Afghanistan are being decided with ballots and that of Iraq by bullets, the country we know

as China was indelibly defined by a cultural revolution. No, you will not find it in the little red book of Chairman Mao. If happened in the first

half of the 15th century, 50 pivotal years of the Ming dynasty and many of its wonders are now on display at the British Museum in London. We'll take

you on an insiders' tour of Ming and its meaning for the modern world. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now the eyes of many other nations are on Scotland and what they might call an insidious separatist

movement here, including China, which, as we know, stares down such challenges.

But a very different period of Chinese history is open to the world at London's renowned British Museum today. It's an exhibition called "Ming:

50 Years that Changed China."

Most of us know the Ming dynasty because of its iconic blue and white porcelain. As curator Jessica Harrison-Hall told me, to understand China's

massive footprint on the world today and tomorrow, it is vital to know its past.

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AMANPOUR: Why did you choose Ming?

JESSICA HARRISON-HALL, CURATOR, THE BRITISH MUSEUM: We chose this period because it's got such an interesting material culture and because of

so many new things that have been discovered, for example, the gold ewer over there --

AMANPOUR: Over there, yes.

HARRISON-HALL: -- was literally in China's earth in 2002. So we're bringing these things which were only discovered within the last 10 years

or so and putting them alongside traditional things that people are more familiar with.

AMANPOUR: This is not so usual for non-scholars and non-experts. That is a whole color scheme that none of us perhaps associate with what we

internalize as Ming, blue and white.

HARRISON-HALL: Absolutely. I mean, there are only two of these in the world. They're --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Only two in the world?

HARRISON-HALL: -- only two in the world. One is in Switzerland, which is its pair, and then this one. It was made for the Xuande Emperor

between 1426 and '35 and its production was overseen by a eunuch agency within the Forbidden City. So you're looking at the earliest piece of

finely crafted Chinese cloisonne in the world.

AMANPOUR: And eunuchs were, what, the group who made all this?

HARRISON-HALL: They were the group that supervised their production. Eunuchs were men who -- and sometimes boys -- who were castrated from the

age of 10, brought into the palace to look after the needs of the imperial family. But gradually in this period, they became more and more educated

and their roles became increasingly important.

And one of those eunuchs led the voyages to the East Coast of Africa in the early 1400s.

AMANPOUR: And that is really incredible, given China's association with Africa right now.

HARRISON-HALL: That's right. I mean, to think of these flotillas of boats, 600 boats, traveling with 27,000 men, most of whom were armed,

arriving in these different communities to reestablish trade is extraordinary.

AMANPOUR: It was trade and not conquering?

HARRISON-HALL: Definitely not conquering. But it was an armed force that were prepared to involve themselves in local conflict if they were

required. They were reopening the yen trading routes. So they were bringing people back to China. They were bringing goods back to China.

Everything from special scented woods to perishable goods to animals, giraffes, exotic animals which would then join the --

AMANPOUR: And they would never have seen a giraffe before.

HARRISON-HALL: Absolutely not.

AMANPOUR: What did these special 50 years, the first 50 years of the Ming dynasty, do for China?

How did it revolutionize China in the Middle Ages?

HARRISON-HALL: Very much by moving the capital to Beijing from Nanjing. Before this period, China's capital moves around all the time.

It's been in Luoyang, Hangzhou, Xi'an, many others, different places.

But from this point onwards, Beijing becomes the capital and there it stays.

But the moving of the capital north creates a character of China that we know today.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about the porcelain with the gold top.

HARRISON-HALL: This is a very, very special -- it was excavated from Liangzhuang Wang's tomb in Hubei. Before this was discovered in 2002, we

only knew about this from paintings. So when we found an actual blue and white stem cup, with the cover, with the silver stand, we could see how

they were used in paintings. It was a remarkable discovery.

AMANPOUR: Is it unique?

HARRISON-HALL: It is utterly unique. There's only one of these in the entire --

AMANPOUR: Only that one in the world?

And on these porcelain Chinese vases, there is Islamic calligraphy, Islamic design.

HARRISON-HALL: Yes, absolutely.

AMANPOUR: How important is that?

HARRISON-HALL: You've picked a very pertinent point because, in fact, both the Islamic design at the top here and the shape of this ewer in the

Islamic form are very, very fashionable in the early 1500s. And this is partly because of contact with those countries and also partly because of

things which were left behind by the Mongols when they fled China and were copied in porcelain at this period. This is a vogue at court, which only

lasts for about 30 years.

AMANPOUR: Here we're walking into the arts of war section of this exhibition.

Was it a very expansionist time for the Chinese, for the Mings?

HARRISON-HALL: It's a terrifically important time for military culture. In fact, at the early Ming, I would say that military culture is

more important than civil culture.

AMANPOUR: They didn't skimp on their equipment. This is an incredible saddle.

Is that the emperor's saddle?

HARRISON-HALL: Well, it's the most extraordinary saddle because it's iron and then covered with gold foil, inlaid with turquoise -- the pale

blue -- and then lapis lazuli for the deep blue.

AMANPOUR: What do you think is the significance, the importance of this kind of exhibition, of this period of Chinese art and culture?

HARRISON-HALL: I think what it tells us is how sophisticated and how globally engaged China was before the arrival of Europe. Often Ming

history has told us China awakened through the arrival of the Europeans in the early 16th century. But from all the beautiful things that surround us

and all the interesting things that you can see in the exhibition, that idea is very old. And the new scholarship tells us how deeply engaged with

the whole world China was in the early 15th century.

AMANPOUR: What is this long scroll of what looks like ledger activities?

HARRISON-HALL: Well, this is one of the portraits of the emperors that we borrowed from the palace museum in Beijing and it shows the emperor

engaged in different sports with his eunuchs, keeping everybody fit and ready for battle.

AMANPOUR: So this is...?

HARRISON-HALL: This is him engaged in watching an archery competition. And here we have football. So these eunuchs, front, have got

a ball that they're playing keepy-uppy, which strengthens --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Keepy-uppy?

HARRISON-HALL: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I love it.

So did the Chinese invent football in here? Or did the British?

HARRISON-HALL: Oh, I think Chinese invented most things.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So after a break, another game-changing vote in Scotland today, and we'll tell you more when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as millions of Scots of all stripes and both sexes go to the polls today, a private club with 200 -- 2,500

members -- all male -- has also voted to change 260 years of sporting history.

Imagine a world where the home of golf, a bastion of the old boy network, has finally decided to admit women. The royal and ancient golf

club of St. Andrews was founded in 1754, two decades before the American Revolution. And its iconic clubhouse stands as the symbol of the game

itself. Along with the United States Golf Association, it also administers the rules that govern golfers around the globe, from weekend duffers to

Tiger Woods. And yet while women have played at St. Andrews as guests and competitors in their own championships, they have been carrying what

golfers call a handicap, vis-a-vis their male counterparts denied membership and voting rights, that is, until today.

While the future of Scotland itself remains unknown, this most royal and ancient of boys' clubs has voted not only to let women tee off but to

give them a seat at the table where they can help make the rules.

And that's it for our program tonight from Edinburgh. I'll be back in just a few hours as results of the referendum vote start coming in and

polls close. For now, remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching

and goodbye from Edinburgh.

END