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Boko Haram's Silent Victims; Nigerian Government Responds to Critical Report; Foreign Troops Wind Down Afghan Operations; Imagine a World

Aired October 27, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight on the program, as the Nigerian government claim a truce with Boko Haram and the imminent release

of those kidnapped schoolgirls, we ask the senior adviser to President Goodluck Jonathan about the shocking evidence that the killings and

kidnappings in fact continue.

And then later in the program now that British and American troops have ended combat operations in Helmand province, can Afghan forces cope on

their own? We'll be talking to a top British general.

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HOLMES: Good evening, everyone, welcome to the program. I'm Michael Holmes in for Christiane today. Now they are the silent victims of rape

and torture. Today we give a voice to the hundreds of women and girls abducted in Nigeria by the militant group Boko Haram. Their ordeal has

been brought to light in a shocking new report by Human Rights Watch. The organization spoke first-hand to the victims, who describe appalling

treatment at the hands of the Islamic militants. From violence and sexual assault to being forced into marriage, even to commit murder as this victim

describes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): When they wanted me to kill the first man, my body was shaking and I fell down on the ground. They forced me to

get up and watch as they killed the second person. At that point, I was thinking I should grab a gun from the insurgents and kill myself, since

they had taught us how to shoot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Human Rights Watch estimates that since 2009, Boko Haram has abducted more than 500 women and girls, mainly Christians. The biggest

single incident, of course, was back in April. You'll remember this one, 270 schoolgirls taken from Chibok in northeastern state of Borno. Some did

manage to escape but they are heavily scarred and they continue to live in fear, not only for their own safety but for their families' safety as well.

Now this report not only exposes the brutality of the Islamic militants but also accuses Nigeria's government for failing to properly respond. Now in

just a moment I'll be speaking with an adviser to Nigeria's president, Goodluck Jonathan. But first let's talk to the author of the Human Rights

Watch report, Mausi Segun, who is in our London studios.

Thanks so much for being with us, Mausi. First of all, outline for us the reports insight into what these girls went through and, in fact, are still

going through from your own perspective. You're the one exposed to them.

MAUSI SEGUN, NIGERIAN RESEARCHER, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Yes. Many of the victims that we spoke with, women, young women and girls, are many stolen

from their homes right in the presence of their parents, their family members. Others taken while they were working on the farm and made to

follow the insurgents into their camp, cooking and cleaning for them, some having to participate as a video short (ph) in military operations with the

group, luring other victims in the community into the camp of the insurgents to be killed.

One young woman talked about being hunted at night to kill a young man who refused to join the insurgents in their war against the Nigerian state.

Other women, especially the Christian women, talked about being forced into marriage, being forced in to convert from Christianity, to Islam. And

those who subsequently agreed to go into the marriage are forced to enter sexual relations with members of the insurgents. Others are raped --

HOLMES: Yes, talk to me, if you will, about government action or inaction. One of the striking things about the report is it says many of the girls

who escaped weren't even interviewed, despite the fact that obviously they have some pretty valuable intelligence on Boko Haram.

SEGUN: Absolutely. And just in the words of one of the girls, she said when her parent took her to the local police station to report that she had

just returned from three months in Boko Haram captivity, the words of the police to her parents were, "Lucky you. You better go back home and thank

your lucky stars that you managed to escape."

There was no attempt to document what had happened to her or investigate because she had names. Many of them have names. They have location. They

have so much information about what's going on in the camp, where the group is and how well equipped they are, but all of these have been totally

ignored.

HOLMES: That just seems absolutely extraordinary. What resources have been offered to them to help them recover from their ordeal? These are the

ones who've gotten, let alone those who've been captive much longer and still being kept.

What is being done for them and prepared for those who will come, hopefully?

SEGUN: Many of these women and girls are -- remain in hiding for fear of their lives because for some reason the insurgents are still able to trace

them and send them threatening messages. They do not have information about the kind of help services or mental health services that they need to

deal with their experiences. Some services do actually exist in Nigeria. But they don't have that information.

They do not know how to access it and, again, this is a failure of the government to protect their rights.

HOLMES: And to that very point as well, that's their mental health.

What physical protection do these schoolgirls get now, not only those who've escaped, but other schoolgirls? We see reports of more abductions.

What in your view does the government need to do there?

SEGUN: I think that there are all kinds of community measures that can be taken, especially for example, taking some of the students into schools in

other states that are safer, have safer environments. What has happened now is that those girls, those students, have failed to return to school

because they are afraid of being reabducted.

And so the failure to protect also fuels up (ph) the violations of other rights, including the right to education and the right to live in a

security environment. They and their parents, many are sleeping in the bushes at night for fear of Boko Haram's attacks.

HOLMES: And finally, it must have been an emotional experience for you to actually talk to some of these girls and hear these stories and record them

for the report. I didn't -- what is the long-term impact on these kids? I mean, I would imagine if you've got entire generation of girls who are

about too scared to get an education because of Boko Haram and government inaction?

SEGUN: I think it would take some years of consistent professional counseling to help them get through what their experiences have been and

the continuous fear that they have of the insecurity around them, of what the future holds for them and concerning the people that were left behind,

because hundreds more are left behind. They're left behind in Boko Haram's camps. They fear for them. They fear for those that have managed to have

kind of relationship with while they're away in the camp, all of that needs to be addressed by the government.

HOLMES: Mausi, thanks so much, Mausi Segun there of Human Rights Watch, appreciate all of your work that you've been doing and this report really

does bear reading. Thanks so much, Mausi.

All right. And joining us now to respond to some of those allegations is Nigerian presidential adviser Doyin Okupe. He is in the Nigerian capital,

Abuja.

And thanks for joining us, sir. You've now no doubt seen the report and the criticism that is contained inside of it, not enough helping done for

these girls who've escaped and not enough protection for those still trying to go to school, failing to prevent abductions, even when warned about

them.

What's your response to all of this?

DOYIN OKUPE, SR. SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GOODLUCK JONATHAN: Thank you very much, Holmes. I received to the lady that just spoke, some of

what she said are not absolutely correct. In first instance, (INAUDIBLE) Nigeria and (INAUDIBLE) governments have already directed the schools in

the affected area to be shut down and (INAUDIBLE) have been made that these children will be posted (ph) to a neighboring school and neighboring states

where the city and you must not forget, we're not living in peacetime. We are talking about war zone. We are fighting a war with Boko Haram.

So it's a different thing that if it was peacetime, not so. It is difficult to provide individual safety and security for each person and the

girls or students or men living in that area. The entire security problem there is something that the military is responding to on a daily basis. I

have had an opportunity to read the report. I find some part of it very patronizing.

For instance, the victims (INAUDIBLE) was advised and who have been advised how to (INAUDIBLE). This was a purely presidential initiative. Now

(INAUDIBLE) now advising us how to supervise, how to do this. I find that very, very patronizing.

The government is doing everything that it has to do. There is an elaborate plan on ground. There is an elaborate plan on ground to take

care of these girls, their psychological issues, their torments and all that.

But let me say something formed (ph). You know, when this thing broke, further government has dispatched two or three different teams. And the

parents of the girls refused to allow them to have contact with these girls. And it was understandable because they said they were afraid, they

didn't want to come back because of fear of reprisal (ph).

So (INAUDIBLE) nobody has questioned them, nobody has done this. And besides we will run our government here a little bit different from

elsewhere. We go and look at governments that have responsibilities. We've got state governments that have responsibilities. And they are

(INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

OKUPE: -- government had a much, much larger responsibility.

HOLMES: OK. Mr. Okupe, I want to ask you this.

On Tuesday, the Nigerian foreign minister said this -- and I'll read you the quote -- he said, "I can say with some optimism, cautious optimism,

that we are moving towards a situation where we would, in the very near future, be able to get back our girls."

Now these talks with Boko Haram that were meant to bring about a cease- fire, were meant to bring about the release of those girls from Chibok, what is happening with those talks?

Where are they at the moment?

We're hearing reports of more girls getting kidnapped.

OKUPE: Thank you very much. You know, (INAUDIBLE) Nigeria and the Nigerian military have confirmed and we're stating that we are having talks

with Boko Haram. The talks are going on. Yes, there are infringements of the peace of the cease-fire and even the Boko Haram people have come out

themselves to say that this had done by dissidents, this are done by some criminal elements who (INAUDIBLE) societies and it is not only (INAUDIBLE).

You know, we are talking of -- we are talking of an insurgency sects. They have different warlords. So they may not all agree together at the same

time. And it is not strained (ph) in Ukraine, one of the (INAUDIBLE) cease-fire for five days, you know, the government troops and the

separatists were shooting each other.

But today the (INAUDIBLE). People have to be present and allow us to make mistakes (ph) and not to get these very generals road map so we can get to

these areas of. The result, the major result we are looking at is to get these girls back --

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: Right. And it seems to be --

OKUPE: -- we have done.

HOLMES: -- yes, the talks are ongoing, but nothing so far. OK. I understand what you're saying.

One other report and issue I want to ask you about, there's been documentaries done and videos that are out there -- and I'm sure you've

seen them as well -- of Nigerian security forces carrying out human rights abuses as they hunt for Boko Haram. That "FRONTLINE" documentary recently,

a number of videos showing security forces actually committing atrocities.

Are you in control of your own military here (INAUDIBLE)?

OKUPE: I can assure you that Nigerian military are one of the most highly disciplined in the continent. I have seen this case myself. They are

quite (INAUDIBLE). It's unbelievable and I don't think nobody (INAUDIBLE) will do that. You know, they are very personable. They are sources and

(INAUDIBLE) have things that cannot really -- I'm sure CNN will not show it because they are (INAUDIBLE) and the truth behind them is difficult to

ascertain. I do not believe that anybody in the Nigerian army wearing a Nigerian uniform would do those things that (INAUDIBLE) those videos.

Those are not Nigerian army people. They are not.

HOLMES: All right. We'll leave it there. Nigerian presidential adviser Doyin Okupe, thanks so much, joining us there from Abuja.

All right. While Goodluck Jonathan is bidding for another term as president, by the way, the new president of Afghanistan, Ashraf Ghani,

wasting no time making his mark. "The New York Times" reporting that he actually barred the interior minister from an important cabinet meeting

because he was a few minutes late. He's cracking the whip there, it would seem. Ministers also advised to eat before coming to the presidential

palace because those lavish meals that were laid on by his predecessor, Hamid Karzai, well, they're off the menu now. You're not going to get a

feed if you go to the palace.

But change of a more fundamental kind has also come to Afghanistan. The last British soldier leaving Helmand yesterday. What now for security in

that region? We'll find out next.

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HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone, to the program. I'm Michael Holmes.

The Afghan War, which began in 2001, came one step closer to ending on Sunday or ending in one form, anyway. British troops closing down their

last base in the country. The American military pulling out entirely from Helmand province, a crucial battlefield in this war.

Despite the election of an internationally respected new president and deputy, the Taliban making territorial gains this summer, vying for power

themselves. By January, the Afghan military will be completely responsible for the country's security solo, not just taking the lead, as they've been

doing for some time now.

Could Afghanistan become another Iraq? Its military collapsing in the face of militant extremists. Well, General Sir Mike Jackson led the British

military from 2003 to 2006 as U.K. troops were stationed in Afghanistan and helped invade Iraq as well. Now he joins us from Hungerford (ph) in

England.

General, thanks so much for being with us. I want to ask you first of all no foreign power, as you're aware, being a bit of a student of history, has

ever won in Afghanistan. And today the Taliban have retaken broad swaths of territory, including large portions of Helmand itself, where this wrap-

up has happened.

Do you think the coalition leaves behind a job well done?

GEN. MIKE JACKSON (RET.), BRITISH ARMED FORCES: I believe so, yes. In terms of the determination and the courage displayed not only by Britain,

but by all the nations of the coalition, I think that is beyond question.

And you mentioned winning. Winning is a difficult thing to define, when you're not looking at a state-on-state war, where the outcome is decided on

the battlefield. This is different, as so many of the post-Cold War interventions have been.

Winning to me was the initial removal of the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, and we've got to remember, it all began with 9/11. And

then certainly for Britain and I think for some other countries, arguably not the United States, the mission broadened into nation building. Now

that is a very tall order, because it's way beyond just the military. You're looking at instituting good governance, representative government,

rule of law, good policing, education, health -- I mean, the whole gamut of a civil society.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: And the cultural issues as well. I've heard you say many times -- or several times -- that to you the definition of success is the question,

did we leave it in better shape than we found it?

Did you -- ?

JACKSON: Yes, correct.

I firmly believe so. Go back to the autumn of 2000 (sic) and the immediate aftermath of 9/11. You had an authoritarian regime which gave succor to Al

Qaeda. Hardly anybody was educated properly, least of all young girls.

The rule of law was nonexistent. Government was anything but representative. And to be fair -- and I think people must be fair here --

when you look at those various aspects of Afghan society now, it is undoubtedly better.

Now the security situation, of course, remains a concern. And the big question is are the Afghan security forces up to continuing to prevent the

Taliban from interfering fundamentally with the new Afghanistan?

HOLMES: Which brings me to the next question, and let's actually discuss that very point. As you well know, Afghanistan -- I've been there many

times -- is a very tribal land, warlordism, familial ties outweighing any real sense of nationalism.

When it comes to the military, there are undoubtedly -- and I've seen them train -- good units in very good form. But there are other more rank-and-

file units that have major issues. Seems like absenteeism, they just go home for the weekend and don't come back, skill level, commitment. And

what we've seen in Iraq, we can see what that can lead to.

Do you think they're up to it?

JACKSON: I hope so. I'm -- it's eight years since I was in the country, when I stood down retired from the army. So I'm going to be careful. But

I talked to a lot of old military friends, who've been in Afghanistan since I stood down. They are much more confident that enough is being done to

give the Afghani security forces the right training and equipment to take on the security role.

HOLMES: Well, they said that about Iraq as well, of course, and look what happened. And I think (INAUDIBLE) between Iraq and Afghanistan; I do get

that. You know, one of the phrases that I heard more than once in Afghanistan when it comes to the Taliban is you in the West have the

watches; we have the time, meaning of course that the Taliban more than happy to wait it out. They don't care if it's 10 years, 20 years, 30

years. They're up there in the mountains. They're in Helmand province. They're all around the place, around Kandahar and they think they're going

to be back in power in some form or another.

Do you agree?

Certainly possible.

JACKSON: I know the quotation very well, hence my wry smile. It's not for a soldier or even a retire soldier, I think, to get into what needs to be

done politically. But if I can offer an opinion as Citizen Jackson rather than General Jackson, it would seem to me, in the long term, the politics

of Afghanistan need to include those who call themselves the Taliban.

Now how that is done is beyond my experience. But it seems to me only in that way will you encompass the big tent of Afghanistan as a whole and move

on to that stable and secure Afghanistan which we would all want for the Afghanis themselves and then in the wider world, in that very turbulent

region. A stable Afghanistan, to me, is a must.

HOLMES: And just very briefly and finally, the Taliban, we say the Taliban, but that's like saying ISIS. There's many, many elements to the

Taliban and which one you think you're talking to while you're talking to all of them.

They're resilient, though. Do you think they're going to sit back there and say, oh, well, the Americans and the Brits have gone, we'll play nice

now?

JACKSON: I don't know the answer to that question. And the timing of the coalition withdrawal is debatable. There is a view that we probably are

going a little early for some judgment. But that's water under the bridge. The decisions have been made.

As I say, we're now into what is pretty political ground and I'm not sure I'm any better witness to that than anybody else. But I repeat, it seems

to me the long-term stability of Afghanistan requires a political accommodation and not just a continuing internal security operation.

HOLMES: Yes, unlike Iraq, there will be some troops staying behind, but too many, not enough, that is debatable.

JACKSON: I mean, the important thing is that -- those coalition forces who stay after the end of the year are not in a combat role. They're in

training, mentoring, supporting, probably some logistic help as well. And that, of course, has been the political point, certainly in the United

Kingdom and I dare say in the United States and elsewhere.

HOLMES: General Sir Mike Jackson, thanks so much. Great to have you on the program. Appreciate your time.

JACKSON: My pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Well, since the beginning of operations in 2001, 445 British soldiers lost their lives in Afghanistan and that mission ends as it ends

Camp Bastion, once a bustling military base, it's empty. We're going to look at a novel way the experience of the soldiers who served there are

being brought home to Britain when we come back.

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HOLMES: And finally tonight, imagine a world where soldiers who fought in the land where the 9/11 attacks were planned are finally coming home with

13 years' worth of memories among them.

Back in April, photographer Robert Wilson went to Afghanistan to record the drawdown of British troops ahead of what we're seeing now. He captured the

startling photographs of those soldiers and the battle-scarred world they knew. And earlier this month the series of images was displayed on

billboards and at bus stops throughout the U.K. to bring home the war in Afghanistan to the hometowns of those who fought in it.

Some, like this one, showing a sign reading, "Little Heathrow," have a touch of irony, pointing out just how far away their lives are life they

left behind. Others offer a bit of wry humor. There's one there, one of a fortified bus stop in Kandahar.

Yet all of these images bring home the mundane moments and the haunting beauty of that conflict that claimed the lives of more than 450 of their

brothers in arms, a strikingly beautiful country, troubled for so many decades.

That is our program tonight. And remember you can always watch the program online at amanpour.com. Follow me on Twitter @HolmesCNN. Thanks for

watching. I'll see you tomorrow. Goodbye for now from Atlanta.

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