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Amanpour
Shootings Close Holy Site, Fuel Tensions; Searching for Mexico's Missing Students; Imagine a World
Aired October 30, 2014 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: shootings in Jerusalem. One of its most sacred sites temporarily closed with the city
on edge. I speak to both sides of this ongoing conflict.
Also ahead, protests rage in Mexico; 43 students are still missing. Will there be justice?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORGE CASTANEDA, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER OF MEXICO: . the people who did that, whoever they may be, have very little to fear because they know
that the ones who did similar things before have not been punished.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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HOLMES: Hello and welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Michael Holmes, in for Christiane again today.
Well, tensions rising once again between Israelis and Palestinians, with one of Jerusalem's holiest sites at the center of a tinderbox,
scuffles breaking out as dozens of far right Israeli protesters tried to break into the al-Aqsa compound after it was closed for the first time in
years, following the shooting of a controversial right-wing rabbi. The site is known as Temple Mount to Jews and the noble sanctuary to Muslims.
It is expected to reopen on Friday although not for the first time Muslim men under the age of 50 will barred, Israel says, because of the
risks of demonstrations.
Rabbi Yehuda Glick, who had pushed for more Jewish access to the compound, was wounded in the shooting. On Wednesday, Israeli police then
shot and killed Palestinian suspect Moataz Hijazi. prompting clashes on the streets.
A spokesman for the Port Authority president Mahmoud Abbas described the closure of the holy site as a declaration of war or tantamount to that.
A visit by Ariel Sharon back in 2000, of course, helped ignite the second Palestinian intifada and all the violence that followed.
Tensions between the two sides are being simmering more than usual since the conflict in Gaza and also over Israel's plans to expand and build
more settlements in the West Bank and, crucially, East Jerusalem, which Palestinians want to be their future capital.
Well, can the two sides find any common ground?
I spoke to Israel's economy minister, Naftali Bennett, who joined me from Jerusalem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Naftali Bennett, thanks for being with us on the program. The mosque area, the Temple Mount area, is going to be reopened in the
hours ahead, one hopes.
Do you think that that will diffuse these current tensions?
NAFTALI BENNETT, ISRAEL'S ECONOMY MINISTER: I believe so. Unfortunately, we've gone through a wave of terror from radical Islamic
terrorists; just a few days ago, they murdered a 3-month-old Jewish baby and yesterday they shot point-blank at an Israeli.
And I hope now tensions will calm down.
What we need is for the Palestinian leadership to stop incitement, because they have been calling for these sorts of actions and indeed the
words do kill.
HOLMES: You know, the word "incitement" is a common one used by Israeli politicians and others when it comes to the Palestinian leadership.
But there are plenty on Israel's right in politics, in the settler movement which could be accused of the same. We've heard the chants of
"Death to Arabs" on the streets of Jerusalem and elsewhere, even liberal Israelis attacked on the streets in recent weeks.
Really the level of discourse has never been so low.
How does one improve that and get things back to some sort of civilized discussion?
BENNETT: First of all, that's incorrect. No Israeli leader, no Israeli member of parliament has been calling for the murder of
Palestinians; while at the same time, the Palestinians are doing just so.
In fact the president of the Palestinian Authority called to stop at any cost from Jews exercising their freedom of prayer on Temple Mount. So
I don't accept that assertion.
HOLMES: Well, have Palestinian leaders been calling for deaths of Jews?
I'm not saying that politicians were calling for the deaths of Jews. I said that "death to the Arabs" had been chanted on --
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: -- more than once in recent times. And I think that's a fair comment.
During the Gaza conflict, the deputy speaker of the Israeli Knesset said the only innocents in Gaza are IDF soldiers and called Palestinians
"savages of the desert."
That's the type of thing I'm talking about, when it comes to this word "incitement," and it's detrimental to any kind of discourse, is it not?
BENNETT: You bet that Palestinian leaders have been calling to murder. You know that the Palestinian leadership funds terrorists when
they're in jail after murdering Israelis. They actually pay them a monthly salary, which is way higher than your average salary in the Palestinian
Authority.
They call circles over the names of suicide bombers. So they do everything on their TV shows. They call to kill the Jews day in, day out.
That's blatant incitement. None of that happens in Israel.
In Israel, we have 1.5 million Israeli Arabs who enjoy full, equal rights, who vote for the Knesset, who are part of our parliament. None of
that exists here.
Are there a few Israelis on the sidelines that do that?
Perhaps, but not the Israeli government as a government.
HOLMES: Yes, well, I think the deputy speaker of the Knesset's a fairly senior figure. The point being, of course, that it is on both sides
and it's not helpful. And what we're seeing today is not just about this incident, this attack, brutal attack on the rabbi.
The anger and polarization have being roiling for a long time. There have been many arrests and deaths of Palestinians as well. The settlement
expansion in the West Bank and particularly East Jerusalem, attacks on Israelis, as you point out, too. Then this is just the latest spark.
What needs to be done to get back to some sort of talk?
BENNETT: That's the main thing.
What we need to be doing is investing in joint economy between the Palestinians and the Israelis. We can talk forever. But as long as the
quality of life for Israelis and Palestinians is not good enough, this thing is going to go on and on.
What we need to do is talk about paving roads, opening up new businesses, opening up commercial centers, factories and that's my focus as
minister of economy for Israel. We need to improve the lives on ground of millions of people.
And that's what I would focus the international community on.
HOLMES: When it comes to Temple Mount, one final question, in 1967, when Israel secured that territory, I think it was Galan who said take the
flag down.
Do you think the Israeli flag should be flying on top of Temple Mount?
BENNETT: Temple Mount is the most holy place for Jews in the entire world and it's the third holiest location for Muslims. So we have to find
a way where both religions can fully exercise their freedom to pray. That's what we need to be striving for and that's what I hope ultimately
will happen.
HOLMES: I have to leave it there. Naftali Bennett, thanks so much for being on the program.
BENNETT: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: And listening to that is the Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations, Riyad Mansour. He joins us now live from U.N. headquarters
in New York.
Ambassador, as we say, you heard Mr. Bennett there, the Palestinians are inciting violence and Israelis do not.
RIYAD MANSOUR, PALESTINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, the Israeli government and the occupying authority and the settlers are the ones who
are practicing that. The issue is not improving, building a road here or there.
The issue is ending occupation of our land. They said in the Security Council and Prime Minister Netanyahu said in the general assembly we are
not occupiers. This is a land that was given to us by God.
If that is the case, then we need to know where are we going to build the two-state solution. They have to come to the conclusion that there are
occupiers. That's the position of everyone in the Security Council, in the United Nations, in all corners of the globe, in all -- including
Washington, D.C. If they do not accept that they are occupiers and that they have to leave our homeland and by that I mean the West Bank, the Gaza
Strip and East Jerusalem, then there will not be doors opened for peace.
HOLMES: Well, as I said to --
(CROSSTALK)
MANSOUR: -- and people are much (INAUDIBLE) that they are looking for something here or there in the economic front. They are eager to have
their independence and freedom and this occupying army with its settlers and its oppressive machine against our people, including East Jerusalem,
has to evacuate from our homeland.
HOLMES: As I said to Mr. Bennett, the controversy over this shooting, the rabbi shooting and the closure of the mosque really is just the latest
in a series of incidents that perhaps haven't been as widely reported. There are daily demonstrations in East Jerusalem, a lot of controversy over
expanding settlement activity particularly in East Jerusalem.
What do you think is happening when it comes to that expansion? Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital.
MANSOUR: Absolutely. And there are daily incidents in which Israel occupying authority and their extreme settlers killing Palestinian
children, young people, arresting Palestinians, uprooting our trees, making our life miserable, closing down the third holiest shrine for Muslims, not
to allow anyone to go there, that is inflaming the situation.
That is provocation. When they bring settlers with the army and with the police to come to the Islamic compound of al-Aqsa Mosque, that is
intensification the situation and incitement. Nobody is denying anyone al- Aqsa Mosque is always open for visitors. And agreements between Israel and us and the Jordanian authorities, that it is open for everyone but it is
not open for except the Muslims to pray there.
You do not see Muslims praying in churches. You do not see Christians praying in Muslims' mosques. They visit these places, but each would pray
in their own holy site.
HOLMES: I've got to say to you that Benjamin Netanyahu has said he favors the status quo, which is that Jews not pray at Temple Mount and that
he wants that to continue.
The other thing --
(CROSSTALK)
MANSOUR: -- the status quo.
HOLMES: That is the status quo and he said that he still favors that.
He also says that he still favors a two-state solution, even though he's made comments and actions that would indicate he's not particularly
moving in that direction with any haste.
Do you think it'll happen?
Do you have any real hope that, particularly under this government, a two-state solution is even on the table?
MANSOUR: What we have to look for is his action, not what he says. If he is truly in favor of a two-state solution, then he begins educating
his people that they have to evacuate from the occupied territory, not to instruct his ambassador in the Security Council to say that we are not
occupiers, this is our land.
If he wants two-state solution, he has to prepare Israeli people and society to evacuate from our land.
With regard to the status quo in al-Aqsa Mosque, should we believe what he is saying, the status quo? Or will his party vote in favor a piece
of legislation that will be put before the Knesset in order to divide al- Aqsa Mosque, which would be the highest form of provocation and incitement against not only the Palestinians, but the Islamic and the Arab world --
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: To be fair, his spokesman today said publicly that even if their party, the prime minister wouldn't sign it. But let me just ask you
this.
We saw Sweden formally recognizing the State of Palestine and calling on other countries to do likewise.
What impact will that have?
MANSOUR: That is an investment in peace and an investment in saving the two-state solution. We are grateful for this courageous position by
Sweden. I had today two meetings, one with the head of the foreign relation committee of the parliament in Finland. And I urged them to
follow the steps of Sweden.
And I had a meeting with the foreign relation committee of the senate of France. And I asked them to do so. And I understand that a motion has
been deferred to them for consideration so that France to also recognize the State of Palestine.
HOLMES: All right.
MANSOUR: Every European country that has not recognized the State of Palestine to do so is an investment in peace and an investment in saving
the two-state solution.
HOLMES: Still a long way to go on this issue. Appreciate your time, Riyad Mansour, Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations, thanks so
much.
MANSOUR: You're very welcome. Thank you.
HOLMES: Well, the tension in Jerusalem centers around one of the most important archeological sites in the world. As the Jews were building
their second temple more than 2,500 years ago, around the world in what is now Mexico there was a city that was thriving. Archeologists there say
that they may be on the verge of the most important discovery, the city's royal tombs.
Researchers uncovering a tunnel filled with thousands of precious objects, one step closer to finding their Holy Grail. And when we come
back, more on Mexico with the country in turmoil over 43 missing students. I speak with the former Mexican foreign minister, Jorge Castaneda.
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HOLMES: Welcome back.
Angry relatives of 43 students who were kidnapped in Mexico last month have confronted their president over the disappearance. Families demanding
Enrique Pena Nieto do more to help find their relatives and bring the perpetrators to justice.
Those students are believed to have gone missing after clashing with police, who then handed them over to a criminal gang, a drug gang -- the
police did that, the events outraging many Mexicans who were demanding the government take action.
Mexico's former foreign minister is Jorge Castaneda. He joined us earlier from New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Jorge Castaneda, thanks so much for your time.
This case has become a turning point of sorts in Mexico a lot of people believe in a country with such problems with drug crime.
Why this incident creating so much of a turning point?
CASTANEDA: Well, I think it is a turning point, Michael, and one of the several reasons.
One of them, of course, is that 43 students at a teachers' college who have disappeared now for a month, only about 100 miles from Mexico City and
who, in all probability, are now -- by now, unfortunately, not alive, is something that had not happened on this scale in Mexico for several years,
although there had been mass graves discovered in the north of the country.
Similarly, about three months ago, the Mexican army executed 22 people also close to Mexico City in a town called Iguala, and this also has become
public.
So if you take these two things, the army executing 22 people and the local police executing or disappearing and doing away with 43 people, plus
six who were killed in front of everybody, that's a lot of people who are dying at the hands of the authorities in Mexico, either local authorities,
state authorities or federal authorities.
It's a big deal.
HOLMES: And to look at some parts of Mexico, large parts in many ways, what you see is utter chaos when it comes to law and order. It must
be very concerning to you and others as you look at your country.
Why is it this bad?
We're talking about, as you point out, within miles of the capital.
CASTANEDA: Well, the violence is never present everywhere in the country. It sort of shifts around. A few years back, cities like Ciudad
Juarez in the north, Tijuana in the north, were the most violent. They have now settled down a bit. The state of Tamaulipas in the north remains
very violent. Michoacan and Guerrero are among the more violent states traditionally.
It moves around, depending on what the drug cartels do, but also on what the government does. And unfortunately, President Pena Nieto's
government, who has -- which has done so well on so many other fronts, in this area of law and order and drugs and fighting the cartels and organized
crime is simply pursuing former President Felipe Calderon's policies.
Those policies led to a real massacre, a disaster in Mexico, more than 70,000 people died; 25,000 disappeared. And President Pena Nieto has
neither changed policies nor punished those responsible for the extraordinary levels of violence of the previous administration.
HOLMES: And I want to get to that point, too.
When it comes to this case, Iguala, where this latest outrage happened, one of the most extraordinary things is you're talking about a
place that's literally run by a drug gang. It's got its own mayor in power. It seems to be a systemic problem, an integration of drug cartel
and local government.
Do you see it that way?
CASTANEDA: Yes, it's not something which is present everywhere in the country.
The problem is that there's enough place it's sufficiently ubiquitous that the government doesn't have the firepower to deal with it everywhere
at the same time. And President Pena has not really changed the policies that would allow him perhaps to address this thing.
HOLMES: And the problem seems to be -- the criminals can have a very high level of confidence that they won't be prosecuted. That, too, is a
systemic issue, isn't it?
CASTANEDA: Well, it's a very, very high level of confidence because, in general in Mexico, the rule of law does not really lead to punishment
for those who commit crimes. There are no investigations. There are very few trials and very few sentences, let alone prison.
But this, which is true in all aspects of Mexican life, became especially true after the incredible bloodshed under the previous
administration. As I said, 70,000 dead, 25,000 disappeared, absolutely no one has been prosecuted for any of those things.
So when the army kills 22 people in Tlatlaya or 43 students from Ayotzinapa disappear, the people who did that, whoever they may be, have
very little to fear because they know that the ones who did similar things before have not been punished.
President Pena had been insisting for his first two years in office on his economic reforms, energy reform, trying to take the focus off the war
on drugs, off the violence, off the crime, but this has brought it all back to the very forefront of the news agenda; the whole country is paying
attention to nothing at all except Ayotzinapa for the last month.
And it's going to continue this way until the 43 disappeared are found dead or alive.
HOLMES: And it always does come back, of course, to drugs. And I know that in the past you've sort of favored legalizing, certainly
marijuana, and taking that massive part of the drug cartels' business away from them.
Do you still think that is an idea that would work?
CASTANEDA: I think more than ever it's necessary. Most of the drug traffic that takes place in states like Guerrero, like Michoacan, et
cetera, is marijuana. We don't grow coca leaf in Mexico. We are small producers of heroin. We're a transit country for cocaine, of course, from
South America. But mainly it's marijuana.
If we could take away the extraordinary rents that the small cartels obtain and we could stop waging war on them and just let them go about
their business, they would go about their business and stop bothering people or committing other types of crimes.
HOLMES: Jorge Castaneda, thanks so much for being with us on the program.
CASTANEDA: Thank you very much, Michael. It's always a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: And when we come back, he was the world's most famous athlete. But when Mohammed Ali battled George Foreman for the heavyweight
title 40 years ago today, their "Rumble in the Jungle" was about far more than just boxing. We'll have that when we come back.
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HOLMES: And a final thought tonight, today marks the 40th anniversary of one of sport's greatest events. Imagine a world without 1974's "Rumble
in the Jungle," where Mohammed Ali took on George Foreman in what was then Zaire. It was billed as a celebration and a return of black America to the
roots of their culture in Africa.
And that's the undefeated champion, Foreman, against the most famous and outspoken athlete in the world at the time. But the truth was slightly
different to the billing, if anything, the event was a celebration of President Mobutu Sese Seko, who ruled Zaire with a rod of iron and retained
political prisoners in the very Kinshasa Stadium where they fought.
Beneath the bravado, Ali knew his best years were behind him, banned for much of his career for refusing the draft to Vietnam. He was putting
his body and mind on the line for the purse. While Foreman became increasingly annoyed at the lack of respect he was shown by Ali and the
fans, for that matter.
Well, on the night history was made, of course, Ali rolling back the years with a knockout victory in the 8th round. Today, of course, Ali has
a tougher bout on his hands, that is of course his struggle against Parkinson's disease, while Foreman has gone on to become one of the most
popular celebrities in America. Even today he certainly sells a lot of those grills.
Zaire is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mobutu overthrown finally in 1996, but was riven by decades of civil war. Striving daily for
its place amongst nations, 40 years after the "Rumble in the Jungle," drew eyes of the world to its streets.
That is it for the program tonight. Thanks for watching and thanks for being with me this week. Christiane will be back next time. See you.
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