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Amanpour

Secretary Hagel Resigns; FIFA Criticized by Sponsor

Aired November 24, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: a changing of the guard -- U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel steps down. What that means

for the fight against ISIS. Pentagon spokesman Admiral John Kirby is standing by live.

Plus the former FIFA executive still questioning Qatar hosting the 2022 World Cup.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDRA WRAGE, FORMER FIFA IGC: How did we end up with a World Cup bid in a country that is just incredibly hot, not safe for players to play, has

terrible human rights issues?

AMANPOUR (voice-over): We will get her take on the very controversial investigation.

And the Liberian president, in her own words, as the country slowly turns around the battle against Ebola -- her exclusive video diary.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York this week.

A policy shakeup for the Obama administration as Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel resigns. The White House has come under fire for foreign policy

missteps from Ebola to ISIS. How big a change this move is American policy depends largely on whom the president chooses to take over from Hagel. On

many short lists is Michele Flournoy, who served as Undersecretary of Defense for Policy and, as such, was the highest ranking Pentagon female

official ever. I interviewed her earlier this year and asked her about the tension between the White House and the military over timetables for

withdrawing U.S. forces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELE FLOURNOY, FORMER U.S. UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, I think the American people are war-weary.

But I think when the case is made to them that lays out why engagement or how a particular form of engagement will protect their interests, more

often than not they're willing to support a president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So what changes might be ahead for President Obama?

Joining me now to talk about this is the Pentagon spokesman, Admiral John Kirby from Washington there.

Admiral Kirby, thanks very much indeed for joining us.

ADM. JOHN KIRBY: Thanks for having me.

AMANPOUR: So what everybody wants to know is because this really hasn't been laid out is why the resignation but, more to the point, is there a

going to be a new focus on military or foreign policy?

KIRBY: Well, I think to your first question, Christiane, I mean the secretary's decision to submit his resignation today and for the president

to accept it was really borne out of several discussions they've had in recent weeks about the last two years of the president's administration and

what directions he and Secretary Hagel wanted to take the Pentagon and Defense policy.

But as the president said very clearly, much has been accomplished here under Secretary Hagel's tenure. Lots of reforms, more than a dozen reforms

to the institution and a significant agenda of defense diplomacy around the world, to include him being very much a point man for the Asia Pacific

rebalance.

So I don't think it's so much as a change in direction; it's that the secretary was brought on to lead the Pentagon through a period of

transition after 13 years of war. He's done that. He's accomplished a lot. And I think there was just a general mutual agreement that it was

time for new leadership to take the building forward.

AMANPOUR: Right. After 13 years of war, but in the midst of another reramp of war, especially in Iraq. So what is -- or is there not going to

be any shift in direction of the president's current strategy against ISIS?

I mean, look, you know, I know, General Martin Dempsey has suggested that maybe ground troops should be on the table.

Is that still in the offing?

Secretary Hagel was much more forceful about the threat of ISIS than earlier in the year President Obama had been.

KIRBY: Yes. I would say two things. First of all, the secretary's decision to resign has nothing to do with Iraq policy or the strategy.

He's very -- has been a very vocal and strong advocate for the policy and the strategy that we're executing there.

Number two, we're always going to reassess the strategy. General Dempsey has said that several times; I've said that. I mean, you don't ever look

at a strategy in a vacuum. You've got to constantly reassess it.

That said, none of us foresee any major changes to the strategy or, in fact, to the policy of not putting troops in a combat role on the ground in

Iraq. There's been no change and I really don't see that coming anytime soon.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you about Afghanistan? Because obviously a lot is riding on what happens there. Now, yes, there are nearly 10,000 residual

forces who are going to remain, but you know and we've read that over the weekend, there were suggestions that there's been a lengthy debate inside

the White House and with various departments over whether perhaps to enlarge the role of those forces. In other words, not just a non-combat

role, but to go after not just Al Qaeda but the Taliban as well, to continue maybe, if necessary and if asked for, airstrikes.

Is that going to happen?

Has that been under discussion?

KIRBY: Well, we -- again, we discuss strategy every day and certainly looking at the mission post-2014 in Afghanistan -- remember, there's two

parts to that. One is a train, advise and assist; that's the Resolute Support NATO mission. And then there were two as a counterterrorism

mission inside Afghanistan, which we knew would persist. There won't be as many forces applied to that from a U.S. perspective as there are to the

training mission, but that will -- that mission will persist.

Now you can understand why on national TV I wouldn't get into the specifics of exactly what that counterterrorism mission is going to look like. But

it will continue to be robust and it will continue to be effective against terrorist networks.

AMANPOUR: Would you agree that you have a more accepting partner in the new Afghan president, Ashraf Ghani, who has very willingly and loudly and

publicly said that he wants U.S. forces and that may -- he may also want an expanded mission for U.S. forces.

Has he asked for that?

KIRBY: Well, I don't know that he specifically asked for any expanded mission -- and, again, we don't like to talk about future ops.

But what I can tell you is that certainly President Ghani has been a very willing and capable partner here as we -- as we get ready to transition

this mission. We welcome and appreciate his support for the bilateral security agreement that he signed and he's very clear that he wants and

that Afghan government wants a continued allied presence in Afghanistan to help them as they begin to assume full responsibility for their security.

AMANPOUR: Admiral Kirby, obviously the airstrikes and the general alliance against ISIS has made some inroads. And there is a sort of a halting of

momentum in certain areas.

Can you tell me how confident you are, though, that ISIS will be pushed back?

For instance, there were reports that the U.S. hoped to get them out of Mosul and other places or push them really back from Iraq by April, or at

least start the process there.

Also very troubling reports that still a massive amount of corruption and thorough inefficiency amongst Iraqi forces right now, which are hobbling

the effort.

KIRBY: Right. Well, there's a lot there in that question, Christiane. The first thing I'd say is that they have a new defense minister. They

haven't had one in four years, Obeidi . And he has made it very clear that he's got two goals: one is to go on the offense against ISIL and they are

in places like Anbar and the Baiji region. They've now reconnected to the Baiji oil refinery.

The Peshmerga forces up in the north have taken dozens of towns back. So there is -- there is this offensive going on.

Number two, he has pledged that he's going to reform the Iraqi security forces. He's also fired more than 30 leaders and officers, senior

officers, replaced them with more capable ones. So there's a lot of work going on and it's moving in the right direction.

That said, we want to be clear-eyed about this. There's a lot of work to be done. Much was ignored and neglected over the last three years under

the Maliki administration after U.S. forces left in 2011.

So we are very mindful that the Iraqi government still has -- has quite a road to hoe. But they are moving in the right direction and the

indications are going in the right direction.

AMANPOUR: So do you have a lot more faith in the Iraqi forces?

Admiral Kirby, I don't know whether you can hear me.

Do you have a lot more faith in the Iraqi forces right now?

KIRBY: I have you now, Christiane.

As I said, they had their first defense minister in four years. They are making some very solid gains on the ground and they're making some solid

bureaucratic and organizational gains inside the Iraqi security forces, firing incompetent leaders, hiring better ones, working with the Sunni

tribes in Anbar.

So there is progress. But we are under no illusion that this isn't going to be a long-term struggle.

AMANPOUR: There's been a lot of very public talk about tension between the White House and the military and the Pentagon ever since President Obama

came into office.

Some have said that Secretary Hagel was pushed out by those around President Obama or from wherever inside the White House.

How would you characterize that, yes or no?

KIRBY: No. He was not pushed out. This was a mutual decision that he and the president arrived at together after a series of conversations and as

for civil military tensions, the relationship between the Pentagon and the White House remains very, very strong and solid and productive. And you

know, of course there's disagreements over different things time to time. But I can tell you that everybody is devoted to the same national security

goals and objectives. And everybody's focused on moving out on those.

AMANPOUR: Admiral Kirby, thank you very much for joining me from the Pentagon.

KIRBY: My pleasure, thank you.

AMANPOUR: And after a break, another premature exit, not a good-natured resignation ending with a hug, but one accompanied by a storm of criticism.

I speak to the FIFA investigator who left behind a sport seemingly immune to reform, resigning and then rising to the challenge, the most powerful

football organization in the world.

The beautiful game turning ugly -- after this.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Bribery, corruption and scandal: no, I am not talking about politics or the banking industry. I'm talking about FIFA, the football world governing

body. For a game that inspires millions of people, young and old, all over the world, the allegations are pretty ugly. The organization is defending

itself amid still unsettled charges of corruption in the bidding process for the 2018 and 2020 World Cups, which have gone to Russia and Qatar.

Will FIFA start feeling the heat now that one of its main sponsors, Coca- Cola, has publicly attacked its handling of all the allegations? My next guest was a member of FIFA's Independent Governance Committee, who resigned

last year in protest at its lack of reform. Alexandra Wrage joined me from our studios in Washington shortly ago.

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AMANPOUR: Alexandra Wrage, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me.

WRAGE: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: We see this drumbeat against FIFA simply getting louder and louder and the latest is the big, big, big titan, Coca-Cola, which is

criticizing FIFA for its handling of all these allegations of corruption and the like.

Were you surprised by that?

And do you think this is going to be a swell?

WRAGE: The only surprise, really, in the Coca-Cola announcement was how long it took for one of the sponsors to really stand up. The parade of

scandals that we have seen coming out of FIFA and the World Cup bids has been pretty extraordinary. And it was time to hear from the sponsors.

AMANPOUR: Alexandra, let's just go back over these scandals that we've been buffeted by for the last several months and weeks.

First and foremost, this so-called investigation into the allegations of corruption of the Qatar and Moscow bids.

As you know -- and I'll just remind our viewers -- FIFA said that the investigation and the bids were "well thought, robust and professional."

Now Michael Garcia, who was the chief FIFA investigator, a former U.S. attorney, has said that the report, quote, "had numerous materially

incomplete and erroneous representations of the facts."

And now the British chief -- or rather the former chief of the English Football Association, David Bernstein, is saying FIFA reminds him of a sort

of "totalitarian" setup. He said it reminds him of "the old Soviet empire."

So does that ring true to you, Alexandra, that it is really something sort of Sovietesque, as David Bernstein alleges?

WRAGE: Well, I'm not sure I would use that language. But it certainly appears to the public that FIFA is a power unto itself and that it proceeds

without any real regard to the reputational damage that it's suffering.

And it seems answerable, really, to no one.

AMANPOUR: Is that why you resigned from the independent governing or governance board, which was trying to recommend reforms and look into

allegations of corruption and bribery?

Why did you choose to resign?

WRAGE: Well, the IGC, the Independent Governance Committee, was organized to make recommendations for improving the governance at FIFA and we all

assumed that they took the whole process fairly, sincerely and really meant to change.

But we found out fairly quickly -- or at least it was my impression fairly quickly -- that they wanted to cherry-pick through our recommendations.

So we either needed to do much more work, which wasn't going to be possible and wasn't supported by FIFA, or we were at risk of just being window

dressing. And you know, over and over again, FIFA says "problem solved." They've done it recently with the Garcia report. They said, well, this

puts it all to rest and, in fact, it doesn't put it to rest at all.

AMANPOUR: Exactly, especially, I mean, his furious reaction to it has really prompted a huge amount of outcry, to the point that FIFA has now, I

think recommended this for yet another investigation.

So I guess really, the question is, why is there enough evidence for a criminal complaint to be lodged now but not enough to discredit the World

Cup bids in the original report?

WRAGE: Yes, absolutely, that is indeed the question.

How did we end up with a World Cup bid in a country that is just incredibly hot, not safe for players to play, has terrible human rights issues, has no

indigenous fan base?

And yet everybody is arguing -- everybody at FIFA is arguing that this was a legitimate vote.

And you know, who would vote for that package?

And why, frankly?

AMANPOUR: I want to play you a little bit of an interview that I conducted, an exclusive, his first-ever interview, with the new emir of

Qatar, who was very confident about their bid. This is what he said to me.

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TAMIM BIN HAMAD AL THANI, EMIR OF THE STATE OF QATAR: I think that we have the right as Muslim countries and Arab countries to host such a big event

like that. And people should understand that Qatar had the best bid and Qatar will provide and will do one of the best World Cups in history. And

I'm sure about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So your reaction to that; and secondly, do you think that enough pressure will be brought so that the entire FIFA investigation, document,

dossier is revealed, not just the selected document that was released earlier?

WRAGE: Well, my reaction to the emir's response is it would be unfortunate if this were cast as an anti-Muslim or anti-Arab decision, because, truly,

the World Cup belongs to the whole world. I think a lot of people would be delighted to see it played in the Middle East.

But the conditions have to be right. And the conditions in Qatar certainly aren't and evidence of that is they're talking about having to move it to

the winter, because of the terrible heat.

Now as for the report, will we see a copy of this currently secret report?

We don't know. We should. I think, with mild redactions of names of whistleblowers and that sort of thing, I think the public deserves to see

the results of a year-long international investigation into what really happened.

But even if we do see it, I think we should be prepared for it to be incomplete. There were not subpoena rights; there were a lot of people who

were not interviewed. The Russians lost all of their emails, so those were never reviewed. So even if we get to see the report, I'm not sure it's

going to put this to rest for good.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, you mentioned whistleblowers. There is one whistleblower who has come forward. Apparently she was interviewed by

Michael Garcia, the chief investigator. And then she had to retract and withdraw her complaint and her evidence under pressure from Qatar and had

no backing from FIFA.

How can anybody take seriously or actually put themselves on the line to actually give an honest report to an investigator?

WRAGE: Right. That's a great point. There were two alleged whistleblowers involved in the investigation. And I don't know them and I

can't speak to their veracity. But what you can't do as an organization is discourage or discredit people who come forward to give you information.

It's exactly the sort of governance issue that FIFA struggles with more generally.

They don't want to hear information that is negative. And so how do you get to the truth?

AMANPOUR: And what about Sepp Blatter himself, the head of FIFA?

Why is he untouchable?

And will there be any meaningful reform as long as he is the head of this organization?

WRAGE: I don't think FIFA is really going to turn its reputation around and really restore public confidence while he's at the helm. He's been

there a very long time and lived through a large number of scandals without anything really changing.

And I don't mean to imply that he's been personally tainted by any of the bribery allegations or anything, but at the same time, it was on his watch

and he's lost a large number of his executive committee members to allegations of corruption; either they've been forced out or they've had to

resign.

When you're running a ship like that, I think it's time to rethink the management.

AMANPOUR: Alexandra Wrage, thank you so much indeed for joining us on this.

WRAGE: Thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And P.S., if you want to hear about Sepp Blatter and FIFA on sexism and allegations of sexism against the organization, see what

Alexandra has to say online.

This Ebola crisis has hit the world of football as well. Morocco is no longer hosting the Africa Cup of Nations after expressing concern about the

spread of the disease. Instead, it'll happen in Equatorial Guinea.

But last week some happy news for football fans in Guinea, which was one of the worst affected countries by Ebola. Their team has qualified for

Africa's biggest and most popular football tournament.

And coming up next, Liberia is getting a better handle on facing down the disease. Our exclusive first-person account with the Liberian president.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where a deadly disease spreads panic from West Africa all the way here to the United States. But

thanks to late, determined human endeavor, it may be on the way out.

Take a look at this: recent statistics from the Centers for Disease Control show the rate of infection in Liberia, which is one of the worst-

hit Ebola countries, is slowing. And today, Liberia's president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf has urged her people to redouble their efforts in an

ambitious bid to wipe out the virus by Christmas Day.

Is that too optimistic? Maybe. But President Sirleaf has traveled to some of the worst affected areas in Liberia and now in her own words, she speaks

about coming face to face with the deadly disease in an exclusive video diary she did for this program.

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ELLEN JOHNSON SIRLEAF, PRESIDENT OF LIBERIA (voice-over): It's affected the lives of many people. Many have died, including health care workers.

That has brought our regular health care service to a halt because health workers were afraid to go and treat anybody.

We've had to close schools and that meant -- that means that most of our young people, most of our children, you know, are now suffering a

psychological effect of having to stay home.

The most difficult days, we were the poster child of the intensity of this disease. This country prayed, all the churches went to prayers and fasting

prayer, like (INAUDIBLE), very strong religious nation.

Today we thank God that our communities have taken charge. We're much more experienced. Our health workers are back at work. We're accepting our

issues and our partners have come in. We see positive signs and we're bringing this epidemic under control.

The overall number of health care workers -- wouldn't believe, there are something like 8,000-plus all over the country. Not all of them are

trained and certainly most of the facilities are not up to the level where they can provide efficient health service.

We're making sure that, unlike (INAUDIBLE) that they have enough protective -- their gear.

Took us a while, given our circumstances. But now we think we're responding quite well to the needs of our health care workers.

There's never enough but this epidemic is so profound and it hits a country where your own health service is so poor anyway, the infrastructure is so

inadequate, you know, your expertise is limited and it's a disease that is totally unknown to anybody.

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AMANPOUR: The reflections of President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf on the worst outbreak of Ebola in history. And of course we were talking about Chuck

Hagel, the outgoing Defense secretary, well, under his auspices, the United States military also went to Liberia to build treatment centers.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from New York.

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