Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Racial and Social Justice in America; FIFA Criticized by Sponsor; Imagine a World

Aired November 28, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): This week on the program: a plea to mend a broken system from the family of the slain Ferguson teen,

Michael Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CRUMP, ATTORNEY: A first year law student would have did a better job of cross-examining a killer of a unarmed person than the prosecutor's

office did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And as racial tension rocks America, will it ignite a proper national debate this time?

Plus the ugly side of the beautiful game. We meet the former FIFA executive, who quit in protest over its resistance to reform and over Qatar

hosting the 2022 World Cup.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.

All week, this nation has again been rocked by protests and racial division, from Missouri to New York, from Washington, D.C., to Oakland,

Americans of all colors took to the streets to show their frustration as once again America's criminal justice system lay bare what has plagued this

country since slavery and segregation.

This summer in Ferguson, Missouri, a white police officer shot and killed the unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, who he'd suspected of stealing

from a store. And the fallout escalated after a grand jury decided earlier this week not to indict that police officer, Darren Wilson, who fired 12

bullets at Brown; six of them hit him.

For reaction and analysis, I spoke to Glenn Harris, the president of the Center for Social Inclusion, and in Ferguson, rap artist and local activist

Tef Poe, who's calling for justice for Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Let me start with you, Mr. Poe.

What is the action on the streets today?

Are people dissipating their anger?

Or do you foresee continued disturbances of the type we've seen for months now?

TEF POE, RAPPER AND ACTIVIST: Well, the feeling out here in St. Louis and Ferguson, it's a very emotional day. I think we have come to terms with

the fact that, in the United States of America, it is perfectly legal for police officers to murder people of color. And I think that's something

that we're coping with and that's the reality that we live in.

There is no justice when you are murdered by a police officer and you are a person of color. That is a harsh fact to embrace and accept in today's

time.

AMANPOUR: You're absolutely right; it's a harsh fact to accept. It's harsh, what you've just said.

And I want to turn to Glenn Harris here to put that into context because it is, what Tef is saying, quite an indictment of the system. And we have

seen over and over again black people assaulted by white police officers and over and over again they might have been acquitted or not indicted,

from California to New York and elsewhere.

What is the root of this problem?

GLENN HARRIS, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR SOCIAL INCLUSION: I think there are several pieces that are at play. I think first and foremost, as we think

about looking at indictments, it's not only that police officers don't get indicted, even when they move to indict, we frequently see the folks won't

prosecute, that actually won't turn into actually a real charge.

And part of that is I think about how bias works in those systems, but also part of that is fundamentally just all of police officers frequently are

not held to the same standard that you and I would be in a similar criminal situation.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that this was the right decision, given all the evidence the grand jury was given by the prosecutor, by the way, all the

evidence by the prosecutor, was this the only decision the grand jury could come back with?

HARRIS: It most certainly wasn't the only decision. I wasn't surprised by it. I think like Tef was saying and I think like many folks in the

country, we've seen this repeatedly. It's heartbreaking but not surprising. I do think there's an opportunity to think about how the ways

in which we can change those outcomes.

I think part of that is the work that's occurring right now on the ground in Ferguson, raising awareness, engaging folks in the possibility of a

conversation that will maybe take it to the federal level, to come back for a deeper reflection and investigation.

I think right now the most important point is that this isn't the end; in many ways, this is just the beginning.

AMANPOUR: And Tef, from your perspective on the ground -- and you've written a song, when all of this started in the summer -- you've written

about this in your music -- and you're obviously a very prominent activist on the ground.

You wrote something that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, that the reaction in Ferguson, even after the killing, was reminding you of

1963, of the deployment of National Guard, of German shepherds.

Tell me about how you felt.

POE: The reality of the situation for me, personally, is Mike Brown was unarmed and murdered because Darren Wilson feared his black skin. We live

in a society that has created preconceived notions about people that look like me, and especially if you're a male. You're thought to - believed to

be a violent person, to be an aggressive person, to be an angry person.

Whenever a police officer is taken on trial for murdering an unarmed person of color, the track record in the United States of America proves to be

consistent. They are let off.

So now I ask the government of the United States of America if it's perfectly legal for police officers to murder people of color, put it on

paper. Put it on paper so that the people in the streets don't have to flood the streets, don't have to get angry and aggressive.

We don't have to wonder why Darren Wilson was let off because we know now that it's perfectly legal for him to do it. That's -- I think that we live

in a state in time where it is -- it's a complete atrocity and I -- it just breaks my heart.

AMANPOUR: Do you see any real way, beyond the extreme version that you've just outlined, to pretend that it's proper and right that this should

happen or legal, in any event, do you see any way of some kind of community readdressing this?

For instance, the family of Michael Brown are calling for all police to wear body cameras.

Is that something, do you think, that will have an impact?

Will it happen? Will it work?

POE: Body cameras are great. And I do believe that police officers should wear body cameras.

But you know what, the number one problem here Missouri: no one wants to call it for what it is. It's white supremacy. You have Democrats that

guise themselves as Democrats that are really Republicans. They vote Democratic according to labor; they do not stand with the African American

community.

We are the last community to be addressed in this state, even onto a federal level, where we even have a black president that kind of sort of

addresses the problem, but he doesn't full-on address it. It's -- there's not a all-out attempt to eradicate racial profiling and bigotry in America.

AMANPOUR: Glenn, there -- obviously so much raw emotion and genuine hurt and genuine racial divide and legacy of so many years of prejudice and

discrimination. This country has a black president. There have been decades of improvement but obviously not enough.

Do you see an ability to move beyond this?

In other words, every time this happens, we talk about a national debate. We're going to redress something.

Is there ever going to be a national debate that redresses something?

I mean, even the outgoing attorney general, Eric Holder, has called about the vestiges of racial prejudice and racism in this country.

HARRIS: I think two things. I think, one, we have to find space to come to this conversation and this is the moment. If we want to honor Michael

Brown and his death, I think we really need to find space to hold this nationally and not have it be yet, to your point, just another moment.

The second is I think that conversation needs to be a little different. I think we need to find a way to have a deeper conversation not just about

the pain in it, but about the policy choices that we're making, the things that Tef was naming, which is right now, as the systems are set up, we're

generating outcomes that we see repeatedly.

Just something in that process that is failing. We've seen across the country in places like Seattle that actually taking on through government

actually addressing issues of racial equity in daily policy and practice that there's a possibility of getting to different outcomes.

AMANPOUR: So there is a way to make it different?

HARRIS: I believe so.

AMANPOUR: OK.

Tef, obviously people are going to criticize the violence that has been the reaction to this.

Can you see, can you understand, do you try to call for peaceful protests so that one hurt and one wrong is not responded to by another?

POE: You know, no one wants peaceful protest more so than people like myself. I live in this community. I've spoken with Michael Brown's

parents in the past. And we've had brief conversations. And I know that they completely endorse and call for peaceful protests.

And I think no one calls for that more so than the people that actually live here, the people that breathe the air here, the people that have to

raise their children here.

But the reality of the situation on the flip side of that is also that people are traumatized. People are angry. People are emotional. And you

know, there's no answers being provided in a flat-out layman's terms for our community.

You're telling me that a rogue police officer can come here, drive down the street, murder a young man in the middle of the street, let's leave him on

display for 4.5 hours in front of his friends and family, let him bleed to death in front of this entire community, no ambulance was brought; Chief

Jackson came up with excuse after excuse.

And it just appears to be a complete cover-up, in my opinion. I live in Missouri. I'm from St. Louis. I know how the police are. I can't sugar-

coat it for you. They're crooked. They've been crooked and they will continue to be crooked. They got away with it this time.

And the people decided, you know what, we choose to indict Darren Wilson however we choose to indict him because the system will not do so. The

system will not be, will not hold itself accountable.

You know, you have the DOJ on the ground investigating. But the DOJ essentially is investigating their own employees. So we have no voice. We

have no outlet.

AMANPOUR: Tef Poe, that was a very loud voice and the world has heard you and the world is watching Ferguson, Missouri.

Tef Poe and Glenn Harris, thank you so much for joining me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, desperately needed reform of a different kind. I speak to the FIFA investigator who left behind soccer's governing

body for seemingly being immune to reform. The beautiful game turning ugly, after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Bribery, corruption and scandal: no, I am not talking about politics or the banking industry. I'm talking about FIFA, the football world governing

body.

For a game that inspires millions of people, young and old, all over the world, the allegations are pretty ugly. The organization is defending

itself amid still unsettled charges of corruption in the bidding process for the 2018 and 2020 World Cups, which have gone to Russia and Qatar.

Will FIFA start feeling the heat now that one of its main sponsors, Coca- Cola, has publicly attacked its handling of all the allegations?

My next guest was a member of FIFA's Independent Governance Committee, who resigned last year in protest at its lack of reform. Alexandra Wrage

joined me from our studios in Washington shortly ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Alexandra Wrage, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me.

WRAGE: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: We see this drumbeat against FIFA simply getting louder and louder and the latest is the big, big, big titan, Coca-Cola, which is

criticizing FIFA for its handling of all these allegations of corruption and the like.

Were you surprised by that?

And do you think this is going to be a swell?

WRAGE: The only surprise, really, in the Coca-Cola announcement was how long it took for one of the sponsors to really stand up. The parade of

scandals that we have seen coming out of FIFA and the World Cup bids has been pretty extraordinary. And it was time to hear from the sponsors.

AMANPOUR: You resigned from the independent governing or governance board, which was trying to recommend reforms and look into allegations of

corruption and bribery.

Why did you choose to resign?

WRAGE: Well, the IGC, the Independent Governance Committee, was organized to make recommendations for improving the governance at FIFA and we all

assumed that they took the whole process fairly sincerely and really meant to change.

But we found out fairly quickly -- or at least it was my impression fairly quickly -- that they wanted to cherry-pick through our recommendations.

So we either needed to do much more work, which wasn't going to be possible and wasn't supported by FIFA, or we were at risk of just being window

dressing. And you know, over and over again, FIFA says "problem solved." They've done it recently with the Garcia report. They said, well, this

puts it all to rest and, in fact, it doesn't put it to rest at all.

AMANPOUR: Exactly, especially, I mean, his furious reaction to it has really prompted a huge amount of outcry, to the point that FIFA has now, I

think recommended this for yet another investigation.

So I guess really, the question is, why is there enough evidence for a criminal complaint to be lodged now but not enough to discredit the World

Cup bids in the original report?

WRAGE: Yes, absolutely, that is indeed the question.

How did we end up with a World Cup bid in a country that is just incredibly hot, not safe for players to play, has terrible human rights issues, has no

indigenous fan base?

And yet everybody is arguing -- everybody at FIFA is arguing that this was a legitimate vote.

And you know, who would vote for that package?

And why, frankly?

AMANPOUR: I want to play you a little bit of an interview that I conducted, an exclusive, his first-ever interview, with the new emir of

Qatar, who was very confident about their bid. This is what he said to me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAMIM BIN HAMAD AL THANI, EMIR OF THE STATE OF QATAR: I think that we have the right as Muslim countries and Arab countries to host such a big event

like that. And people should understand that Qatar had the best bid and Qatar will provide and will do one of the best World Cups in history. And

I'm sure about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So your reaction to that; and secondly, do you think that enough pressure will be brought so that the entire FIFA investigation, document,

dossier is revealed, not just the selected document that was released earlier?

WRAGE: Well, my reaction to the emir's response is it would be unfortunate if this were cast as an anti-Muslim or anti-Arab decision, because, truly,

the World Cup belongs to the whole world. I think a lot of people would be delighted to see it played in the Middle East.

But the conditions have to be right. And the conditions in Qatar certainly aren't and evidence of that is they're talking about having to move it to

the winter, because of the terrible heat.

Now as for the report, will we see a copy of this currently secret report?

We don't know. We should. I think, with mild redactions of names of whistleblowers and that sort of thing, I think the public deserves to see

the results of a year-long international investigation into what really happened.

But even if we do see it, I think we should be prepared for it to be incomplete. There were not subpoena rights; there were a lot of people who

were not interviewed. The Russians lost all of their emails, so those were never reviewed. So even if we get to see the report, I'm not sure it's

going to put this to rest for good.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, you mentioned whistleblowers. There is one whistleblower who has come forward. Apparently she was interviewed by

Michael Garcia, the chief investigator. And then she had to retract and withdraw her complaint and her evidence under pressure from Qatar and had

no backing from FIFA.

How can anybody take seriously or actually put themselves on the line to actually give an honest report to an investigator?

WRAGE: Right. That's a great point. There were two alleged whistleblowers involved in the investigation. And I don't know them and I

can't speak to their veracity. But what you can't do as an organization is discourage or discredit people who come forward to give you information.

It's exactly the sort of governance issue that FIFA struggles with more generally.

They don't want to hear information that is negative. And so how do you get to the truth?

AMANPOUR: And what about Sepp Blatter himself, the head of FIFA?

Why is he untouchable?

And will there be any meaningful reform as long as he is the head of this organization?

WRAGE: I don't think FIFA is really going to turn its reputation around and really restore public confidence while he's at the helm. He's been

there a very long time and lived through a large number of scandals without anything really changing.

And I don't mean to imply that he's been personally tainted by any of the bribery allegations or anything, but at the same time, it was on his watch

and he's lost a large number of his executive committee members to allegations of corruption; either they've been forced out or they've had to

resign.

When you're running a ship like that, I think it's time to rethink the management.

AMANPOUR: Alexandra Wrage, thank you so much indeed for joining us on this.

WRAGE: Thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And P.S., if you want to hear about Sepp Blatter and FIFA on sexism and allegations of sexism against the organization, see what

Alexandra has to say online.

This Ebola crisis has hit the world of football as well. Morocco is no longer hosting the Africa Cup of Nations after expressing concern about the

spread of the disease. Instead, it'll happen in Equatorial Guinea.

But last week some happy news for football fans in Guinea, which was one of the worst affected countries by Ebola. Their team has qualified for

Africa's biggest and most popular football tournament.

And coming up next, Liberia is getting a better handle on facing down the disease. Our exclusive first-person account with the Liberian president.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where a deadly disease spreads panic from West Africa all the way here to the United States. But

thanks to late, determined human endeavor, it may be on the way out.

Take a look at this: recent statistics from the Centers for Disease Control show the rate of infection in Liberia, which is one of the worst-

hit Ebola countries, is slowing. And today, Liberia's president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf has urged her people to redouble their efforts in an

ambitious bid to wipe out the virus by Christmas Day.

Is that too optimistic? Maybe. But President Sirleaf has traveled to some of the worst affected areas in Liberia and now in her own words, she speaks

about coming face to face with the deadly disease in an exclusive video diary she did for this program.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

ELLEN JOHNSON SIRLEAF, PRESIDENT OF LIBERIA (voice-over): It's affected the lives of many people. Many have died, including health care workers.

That has brought our regular health care service to a halt because health workers were afraid to go and treat anybody.

We've had to close schools and that meant -- that means that most of our young people, most of our children, you know, are now suffering a

psychological effect of having to stay home.

The most difficult days, we were the poster child of the intensity of this disease. This country prayed, all the churches went to prayers and fasting

prayer, like with a very strong religious nation.

Today we thank God that our communities have taken charge. We're much more experienced. Our health workers are back at work. We're accepting our

issues and our partners have come in. We see positive signs and we're bringing this epidemic under control.

The overall number of health care workers -- wouldn't believe, there are something like 8,000-plus all over the country. Not all of them are

trained and certainly most of the facilities are not up to the level where they can provide efficient health service.

We're making sure that, unlike initially, that they have enough protective -- their gear.

Took us a while, given our circumstances. But now we think we're responding quite well to the needs of our health care workers.

There's never enough but this epidemic is so profound and it hits a country where your own health service is so poor anyway, the infrastructure is so

inadequate, you know, your expertise is limited and it's a disease that is totally unknown to anybody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from New York.

END