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Amanpour

Iranian-Born Gunman Dies with Two Hostages in Sydney; Fear of Backlash against Australian Muslims; Imagine a World

Aired December 15, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: a dramatic day-long siege in Sydney is over. Australian commandos storm a cafe,

shooting the gunman and freeing most of the remaining hostages. We'll have the latest on the operation.

Plus standing by live, former Australian prime minister, Kevin Rudd, on terror and security in his country.

And as we learn more about the gunman, reaction from the Islamic community inside Australia.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

A 16-hour hostage siege in Sydney was finally ended shortly when heavily armed police moved in on a cafe and shot the gunman. Self-

styled Muslim cleric and an Iranian-born man.

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MIKE BAIRD, PREMIER, NSW: We have lost some of our own in an attack we would never thought we would see here in our city.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And according to Australian police, two others also died and the New South Wales police chief said they had to

storm the cafe when they did; otherwise, he said, there would have been even greater loss of life.

The gunman was well known to police. In 2013 he had pled guilty to writing hateful letters to Australian soldiers and in 2002, he had been

charged with sexual assault.

For the latest, let's go straight to Kathy Novak, a reporter for SBS in Australia and very close to where all this took place.

Kathy, thank you for joining us. You've been coverage this most of the last 16 hours.

Were you there when this actually concluded? How did it happen?

KATHY NOVAK, REPORTER, SBS: Where I was standing, Christiane, what we heard were the loud bangs, that gunfire coming from outside Lindt

Cafe, where this hostage taker had been holding these people ever since yesterday morning and there was panic around where I was standing.

Ambulances rushing to the scene and of course we saw those dramatic pictures of police storming the cafe as we know that resulted in the

loss of life, not only of the gunman but unfortunately of two hostages, a man and a woman in their 30s.

Six others, we're hearing, were injured, taken to hospital with non-life threatening injuries. We're told one of the people injured was

a police officer who was injured by a bullet pellet in his face.

But yet when this all erupted, it had been hours and hours of this standoff we had heard that police had been negotiating with the hostage

taker. And certainly hoping that this may come to a peaceful resolution. Earlier in the day in the early hours of the afternoon, we

first saw three hostages emerge and then two more. We had reports from local reporters who could see directly into the cafe that the gunman

appeared agitated after those hostages escaped.

Then many more hours of this tense standoff with police surrounding the cafe and then as we know this dramatic escalation where police

stormed the cafe and all of these shots were fired.

AMANPOUR: Kathy, do you know how the two hostages died?

NOVAK: Police are not confirming whose bullets were responsible for the deaths of these hostages. They are still waiting to confirm

those details and certainly haven't released them as yet, as we go to the media. But all we do know is they died as a result of this

operation, that shots obviously were fired and that these two people died and that a number of people were injured.

AMANPOUR: And Kathy, finally, it had been known throughout the day who this gunman was and obviously we, you and the press, were asked not

to release his name too early on. It was clear then quite early that he wasn't perhaps in the traditional sense a terrorist.

NOVAK: No, it seemed that he was a lone attacker. Police are stressing that this was an isolated incident. There had been, of

course, a speculation, as you would imagine, as this unfolded throughout the day, especially because we saw this gunman forcing the hostages to

unfurl a banner, a black flag with Arabic writing. There had been early reports that this may be an ISIS flag and then reports that in fact it

was a more generic Islamic flag with an Arabic saying on it.

But that, of course, sparked speculation that this person could have links to ISIS; certainly seems that he sympathized with the cause.

But police now saying that he was a lone attacker, acted alone and not associated with a larger group.

AMANPOUR: All right. Kathy Novak, thank you so much for joining us.

"Now do not let this change the way you live your life or let it affect your decision to visit this city," thus said the chief of police.

So for more insight, let's turn now to the former prime minister of Australia, Kevin Rudd, who's currently a senior fellow at the Kennedy

School of Government at Harvard University and joins me live from there.

Prime Minister, thank you for joining me.

KEVIN RUDD, FORMER PM, AUSTRALIA: Thank you for having me on the program.

AMANPOUR: You know, this obviously is -- it's ended, but there has been a loss of life.

What is your reaction to that and do you think the commandos should have stormed the cafe?

I realize that's second-guessing at this point.

RUDD: Well, I think anyone watching events unfold in Sydney, all their hearts reach out the innocents who have been caught up in this

extraordinary event. This has been an assault on the innocents. And Sydney is a very welcoming place. It's an inviting place; it's a

cosmopolitan, it's a city, it's a multicultural city. It welcomes people from around the world.

So this to happen in our major city's heart is a shock to all of us, including myself. On the operational matters, I leave all that for

others to comment on the government, who will make the appropriate statements on that back home.

But Commissioner Scipione of the New South Wales police is a highly professional, highly competent individual, as is his force. But I'll

leave the details to others.

AMANPOUR: So tell me, because obviously you were sitting in that prime ministerial chair yourself. This could have happened at any time.

What -- how does it work?

What are the negotiations like?

And I understand there were very professional negotiators and commandos who were in touch with it. I know you don't know the full

details of this case, but what is the general direction?

RUDD: Well, you're right. I mean, I'm here at the Harvard Kennedy School. I'm not in Sydney. And I'm certainly not in government. But

from the reports that I've seen, Prime Minister Abbott and his ministerial team behaved exactly according to the rulebook. An

emergency meeting of the national security committee of the cabinet would have been held and was held.

And from that I assume the appropriate directions were issued in of course Australia, which is a federal structure like United States. The

state police forces had the lead role. And the state police force of New South Wales is a highly professional force. And they have well

rehearsed, well established protocols for how you negotiate in these circumstances, among the best in the world.

But as I said, on the operational dimensions of this, I defer those comments to the government in Australia and to the statements that have

just been made by Commissioner Scipione and Premier Baird of New South Wales.

AMANPOUR: Now after a mass shooting back in 1996, there was a huge and successful gun buyback effort. There were assault weapons and

shotguns were banned.

How does somebody walk into a cafe in the middle of Sydney, a busy area, with an assault weapon or with a shotgun?

RUDD: Well, first of all, I don't know the categorization of the weapon concern. My predecessor, John Howard, did absolutely the right

thing after the 1996 shootings at Port Arthur in Tasmania. And there was a massive re-regulation of gun ownership and introduction of new

forms of gun control in Australia, which has enjoyed bipartisan support ever since.

I think, Christiane, the important thing to remember is that Sydney is a very open and welcoming city. It is not within our collective

consciousness that when you roll innocently into a cafe in Martin Place in the middle of Sydney, which I'm intimately familiar with, that you go

there in fear of your life. This is not something which is in the mainstream of our national life.

So you ask, how could this happen? Well, in any society, you're going to have people who are very much at the fringes of the margins and

obviously this individual was. But I think all of our condolences should be extended to the deaths of -- to the families of those two

people who have been killed tragically in this appalling and violent attack.

AMANPOUR: On the fringes and actually pretty well known to police and society. And I'll get to that in a second.

But obviously, when we first heard about this, everybody leaps to the inevitable conclusion that this is terrorism and particularly with

that ridiculous flag that was being waved in the cafe, that actually wasn't an ISIS flag.

What does it say to you about how concerned one should be?

Is it a lone wolf?

Is it a deranged individual?

Or is it a vanguard of something potentially bigger and worse?

RUDD: Well, in this particular individual case, it's important we wait for the authorities in New South Wales to give us all the facts.

There will be multiple interviews, which need to occur. But I think more broadly, in Australia, it's an extraordinarily peaceful country, an

extraordinarily multicultural country.

We have half a million Muslim Australians who are fine, upstanding members of the Australian community. And during the course of today,

the Grand Mufti of Australia stood up and condemned this action by the hostage taker and by the gunman.

We had combined prayers at Sydney's largest mosque involving our Jewish leaders, our Muslim leaders and our Catholic and Christian

leaders as well.

So the Australian society, we come from everywhere and people have bound together at this important moment as well. I think that speaks to

the strength of my country and I think it speaks also to what seems to me the very sensible way in which the Australian government and the

state authorities have handled this matter so far.

AMANPOUR: But again, he was known for a long time, presumably under your premiership as well. So speaking just for yourself, should

this person have been flagged earlier on?

He was well-known apparently.

RUDD: Well, I think you'll appreciate, Christiane, it's not proper to comment on any individual case. What I do know, however, and

Australia is that security intelligence agencies, are constantly engaged in dealing with matters which are of concern to them and are of concern

to the wider Australian community and frankly, the international community.

People watching this program from around the world know full well that their own law enforcement agencies are wrestling with these

complexities each day. The outgoing director general of the Australian Security Intelligence Organization said only a month or so ago that lone

wolves were a real risk in Australia. We also, as it has unfolded, have some hundreds of young Australians who are currently fighting with ISIS

in the Middle East and as you find them from the United Kingdom and from Germany and elsewhere as well.

So there are people who operate at the fringes of the community. But the remarkable thing has been this pulling together of the

Australian community, including our Muslim brothers and sisters on this critical day, to make sure that we are as one in responding to this

action by what appears to be -- appears to be -- a lone wolf.

AMANPOUR: This is a lone wolf or at least appears to be. But there is a bigger threat of ISIS. We had threats in Australia a few

weeks ago, where people allegedly speaking for ISIS said they wanted to behead an Australian in the middle of the street. There's been a

massive counterterrorist raid in Australia. And the current prime minister said that a senior member of the Islamic State was urging a

network in Australia to carry out public beheadings.

How concerned should a -- you know, a country as far away, if you like, as Australia be for that kind of militant radical terrorism from

these Islamist groups?

RUDD: Well, Christiane, we are now a global community. And with your watching this program this morning, from Beirut or Brisbane or

Beijing, frankly, these issues are as relevant because the forces at work within this absolute fringe organization -- and you're referring

here specifically to the ISIS/ISIL phenomenon, this violent jihadism represents a challenge for civilized peoples everywhere.

And so it's a challenge for us all to come together and I believe work at two levels. The first is through the intensification of our

efforts as security and law enforcement authorities around the world collaboratively against this common foe to us all.

And secondly, dealing also with some of the lessons which are slowly emerging from countries around the world about what motivates

such people to join these organizations from coherent multicultural societies around the world as well.

On Australia, I should add this; the government intelligently lifted the threat assessment in Australia to high for the first time in

11 years as a consequence of recent intelligence reporting and recommendations to the government. And so the government and the

country have been on higher alert. But we've taken many preemptive actions over the years, the period that I've been in office and the

period that others have been in office. And this occurs around the world.

I think the global public opinion, it's important to focus on the fact that there are many, many incidents which are preempted, prevented

from happening because of the sophistication and hard work of our security and intelligence officials.

AMANPOUR: Former Australian prime minister Kevin Rudd, thank you so much for joining me tonight.

And when we come back, more fallout from the Sydney siege, turning to the focus on the impact today's events could have on Australia's

Muslim communities, as we just spoke. I will be speaking to a senior officials in the Australian Islamic relations after this.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now Australia has been jolted by this hostage crisis in Sydney, which is now over after some 16 hours. Local residents are already

expressing worries of a backlash against the Muslim population there. While Australia's Grand Mufti has condemned the hostage taking as a

criminal act.

I'm joined now from Melbourne by Kuranda Seyit. He's the director of the Forum on Australia's Islamic Relations.

Mr. Sayed, thank you for joining me by Skype from Melbourne. Let me ask you first, you have heard who this man is. You have heard what

the police are saying that it's a lone wolf attack.

Was he known to you, as he apparently was to the media and to the police?

And what do you make of him specifically?

KURANDA SEYIT, DIRECTOR, FORUM ON AUSTRALIA'S ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Yes, good morning. And yes, he was very well known to our community, to

me personally. I'm actually originally from Sydney and had a lot to do with the initial problems that had arisen a few -- almost two years ago

when he was sending letters to victims of the -- of the -- of the Afghan conflict.

So soldiers who had served there, who had died, he'd been sending letters to their wives. And I think at that point it was very clear.

And we had made these statements at that time as well, that the individual was not representing anyone from the Muslim community. He

was acting alone and he was probably mentally unstable. And I think that these factors are now come into play in this latest saga.

And I'm very, very saddened by what I've learnt this morning and it's, I think -- the whole country's in deep shock.

AMANPOUR: So, Mr. Seyit, he -- you're telling me he was well known to you. You believe that he was probably mentally unstable. He had a

history of sending threatening and abusive letters to families of Australia's veterans, military veterans. And yet he was free on the

streets to acquire a gun, which have been banned, and walk into a cafe.

How does that happen?

SEYIT: Well, I think you can understand that the matters that had happened over the past few years have all been being dealt with under

the courts and that he was constantly in and out of court on bail. There are a number of charges that he was facing.

So, well, the way the justice system works here is that you know, people can appeal against their decisions and the process can be drawn

out over a long period of time.

So it is very, very sad that this person was still at liberty in the community. But there were no ways to have this person incarcerated

until the court process had finished. And I think that maybe this was a tripping point. And the grievances that he had harbored were building

up and unfortunately it was too late to stop this person from going to the next step and --

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AMANPOUR: What is it --

SEYIT: -- can imagine to obtain a gun anywhere in the world, particularly in places like Australia. It's not that difficult,

unfortunately.

AMANPOUR: What does it say about the wider Muslim community, many of whom are fearing a possible backlash?

And about the efforts to de-radicalize? Australia has gone through an attempt, like many countries, to de-radicalize possible militants.

SEYIT: Well, I think that we have to differentiate with this particular individual who doesn't fit that profile. Of course, in

general, there is an issue around particularly young Muslims being radicalized and we are working around the clock on this issue in terms

of creating programs, having outreach programs, helpline for parents and families and also dealing with the government and looking at (INAUDIBLE)

programs.

So there are lots of processes in play. And I think that the crisis in Syria and Iraq has really been the catalyst for us to start

taking more proactive steps in dealing with this issue.

Up until now, I'm sad to say that generally speaking, we have been quite apathetic about this problem. And I think that we need to learn

from some of the issues that we've seen in the U.K. and in the U.S. and that we need to be much, much more I suppose proactive and strategic

around trying to prevent young people from being radicalized.

And the way that the ISIS campaign is being sent out to the community very effectively is a very important wakeup call for us, that

this is very serious and we need to be doing as much as we can to prevent radicalization of Muslim youth.

AMANPOUR: Tell me a little bit more, because it's obviously within your concern, I assume, about fringe groups, separating from this

individual and this instant, how worried are you about fringe groups?

SEYIT: Well, we are now looking at various levels. One of the areas that we're looking at is just young people in general being able

to access them at a school level.

So there are programs now looking at targeting particularly at this stage Islamic schools, but generally later on we can look at looking at

all schools, where we can have a program which, without quite radicalization, is about inducting young people into the correct mindset

about Islam and making sure that they actually do understand a lot of the misconceptions about Islam, particularly examples of jihad and

Islamic interpretations of war and so forth.

The fringe groups are very, very difficult to access and usually mainstream community organizations like ourselves find it hard to be

able to tap into those young people. However what we are looking at doing is utilizing some of the young imams and having an outreach

program both in Sydney and Melbourne.

I hope that this will probably be one way to reduce some of the issues, because I've had a lot to do with the young people here in

Australia, who are on the fringes of being radicalized. And I find that most of them are going through a sort of phase or a fad. And it is not

that difficult to get them to snap out of maybe their anger or their radical sort of thoughts. It seems to be a passing phase.

And I think that it's important that we get to those young people to avert any terrible actions, including going overseas to fight abroad.

Because it's very devastating for the families, and especially the parents when they hear about these young people out of the blue turning

up in Syria or Iraq.

AMANPOUR: Indeed. Kuranda Seyit, thank you so much indeed for joining us from Melbourne tonight.

And after a break, imagine a world where this tragedy unites, not just a nation but the world in an act of compassion. A helping hand

going viral -- after this.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, earlier you heard Australia's former prime minister talk about the tolerance between Australia's many

different nationalities and ethnicities.

But today's events in Sydney will surely again reinforce all the fears and negative stereotypes of Muslims around the world. But imagine

a world where the horrors of that cafe can actually inspire a shining example of solidarity and humanity.

On Facebook and spreading to Twitter, came the hashtag, #IllRideWithYou, where countless Sydney residents promised to ride on

public transport with any Australian Muslim who feels afraid of a possible violent backlash. Within hours of it being created, it had

been used by tens of thousands of people in Australia.

But it didn't stay local. This map, showing the hashtag hot spots spreading across the globe, as people began offering companionship, car

rides and coffees, showing that sometimes those who would seek to divide people can instead draw disparate communities closer together.

And that's it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching. You can always see us online. Goodbye from London.

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