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Amanpour
Pakistan Defense Minister on Taliban Massacre; Iraq's Fight against ISIS; Imagine a World
Aired December 16, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: bloodcurdling, unspeakable brutality; worldwide condemnation of the
Taliban attack on a school in Pakistan that's killed at least 132 children. I'll speak live to Pakistan's defense minister.
Also ahead, Iraq's fight against ISIS terrorists; the country's deputy prime minister tells me they are making gains.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Massacre at school in Pakistan: in its most barbaric act yet, the Taliban have killed at least 141 people and injured more than 100,
almost all of them children, at a school in Peshawar near the border with Afghanistan.
World leaders from India to the United States express their condemnation. The Afghan president, Ashraf Ghani, called it "un-
Islamic" and "inhumane." And the head of the U.N. Human Rights Council said, "The Taliban appears to be competing to attain the highest level
of human barbarity."
One injured child told CNN, quote, "Four or five people entered and started rapidly firing. I was shot in my left shoulder. They were
making exclamations of 'God is great.' Then one of them proclaimed that 'a lot of children are under the benches. Kill them.'"
It was a school for the families of military personnel. And the siege lasted several hours until soldiers moved in. They say they were
hampered by IEDs that the terrorists had scattered around the school buildings.
A Taliban spokesman told CNN the attack was in revenge for the stepped-up Pakistani offensive against the Taliban in that frontier
region.
Joining me now on the phone is Pakistan's defense minister, Khawaja Asif, who is on his way back to Pakistan from London as we speak.
Minister Asif, thank you for joining me tonight. Look, the whole world has been shocked and everyone is sending condolences to the
government and to the Pakistani people.
How, though, how was a military school so badly secured and defended?
KHAWAJA ASIF, PAKISTANI DEFENSE MINISTER (on the telephone): Yes, it's a very sad day for us, perhaps one of the saddest days in our 67
years of our history. But you're right. You know, the blowback or the reaction to the operation which started in June was expected. But
definitely there must be some slackness in the security that these terrorists penetrated into this school from the back of the building,
which is next to a graveyard, I'm told.
But definitely the reaction which -- two months back -- we had an incident in Lahore, very close to Lahore on our border with India, more
than 60 people died over there. Then there was an incident in (INAUDIBLE) in Karachi.
So our (INAUDIBLE) also suffering and in the war against terror.
AMANPOUR: So, Mr. --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- Mr. Minister, there have been these several attacks. This is the worst of them. Is Pakistan going to continue with the
military offensive in the northwest frontier, in that Waziristan, northern Waziristan area?
ASIF: Absolutely. We are undeterred, you know, we will not back off. We are on the front line for the last now almost 11-12 years. You
know, we need the world, especially the Western countries, must recognize unqualified (INAUDIBLE) should be given to our sacrifices.
At this incident today, even the children are dying on the front line in war against terror. And these children are mostly the children
of our service men, our officers, our soldiers. It's not only that the service men who are dying in this war against terror, it's civilians,
their children.
The sacrifices, I can't count the sacrifices --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: It is very heavy. It is very, very heavy and it breaks everybody's heart.
ASIF: And, Christiane, the smaller the coffin, the heavier it is to carry. And we'll be carrying smaller coffins today, more than 100
small coffins we'll be carrying, the Pakistani nation.
AMANPOUR: It is a terrible sight.
ASIF: And when people tell us how to conduct this war and they say that we are discriminating against this group and not doing enough for
otherwise, then it really hurts, you know, like littering our sacrifice against this war.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Asif?
ASIF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I think we can hear your pain and I hope that you don't believe that nobody belittles the sacrifice that your civilians have
given and particularly your children. It is truly heartbreaking for the world to witness this.
But, sir, you are the defense minister. And you know that there are problems. You know that there are problems within the Pakistan
government and questions as to whether the powerful military is actually 100 percent supportive of you, the government's policy on conducting
terrorist attacks.
Do you believe that they are?
ASIF: Yes, they are, absolutely. The government, the civilian government and the armed forces they are on the same page as far as the
war against terror is concerned. There's absolutely no differences there. There -- we want to try, we want to get a chance to negotiate a
settlement and that it lasted for 3-4 months; nothing happened. And I think maybe we went into north Waziristan (ph) and since 14th of June,
we are fighting this war, actively fighting this war.
And we have -- we haven't actually -- actively fighting for last 3- 4 years. We went into Savad (ph), into South Waziristan, to (INAUDIBLE). You know, there's all these -- (INAUDIBLE) something which
is unspeakable, you know, terror has descended upon our nation today, unspeakably (INAUDIBLE). I have no words to express my shock, my dismay
over what happened today.
It's something, you know, the whole nation is mourning.
And we -- but still, I would say, I will reiterate that we will not give up, will not give up and we shall overcome, Inshallah.
We shall overcome. And we will get rid of this menace from our country. We (INAUDIBLE) our country from this menace.
AMANPOUR: You know, it's hard to ask these questions on a day like today, but for instance, your new army chief, who has been in power and
appointed for several months there, there are mixed reports on whether he is, you know, taking the fight there and supported and supporting
you, the government, and also the United States and other criticisms that there is collusion amongst members of your security forces and
intelligence forces with some of these Taliban.
Do you think today will put the lie to that?
ASIF: I think what happened today is a manifestation of our commitment, that the way they have retaliated, that means that we are
really hurting them. We are hurting them very, very, especially in North Waziristan, which was the richest -- called the epicenter of
terrorism in this whole region or perhaps in the world.
So this is evidence that Pakistan army is performing and performing very well. The fact that there's a blowback, the blowback and the
horror in wartime Karachi and now today in Peshawar, the contempt speaks of you know, the commitment of our armed forces for -- in fighting
terrorism.
This is -- you know, when people speculate about our commitment, and people, they say that perhaps we are not as committed as they are,
(INAUDIBLE) what has happened in the last few years, that Pakistan has suffered economically. Pakistan has suffered 50,000 (INAUDIBLE) in this
war against terror. Tell me one -- any other country, one country in the whole world --
AMANPOUR: Mr. Minister?
ASIF: -- sacrifice for war against terror.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Minister, there have also been questions and some criticisms about Pakistan's identifying the real enemy.
Do you identify your most serious existential enemy today? Because many have said that you see India as the bigger threat or Afghanistan or
even the United States.
Do you, though, believe today that these Taliban, these jihadis are your biggest internal and your biggest enemy?
ASIF: Let me make it very clear, Christiane. India, we had the princes of India. We still have issues with India settled their
(INAUDIBLE) will be no doubt about it.
But we don't (INAUDIBLE) or Afghanistan, we had problems with Afghanistan in the past. But since the takeover of the new president,
we have started a new chapter in our relationship with Afghanistan. And we very firmly believe that for peace in Afghanistan means peace in
Pakistan and without peace in Afghanistan, we don't have peace in Pakistan. That's -- we are very clear about it.
As far as U.S. is concerned, we have had the trust deficit between our two countries in the past also. And perhaps we still have some
trust deficit. But we do not classify them as enemies like we classify the Taliban as our enemies. They are not -- they are OK. They are --
AMANPOUR: No, I asked you who do you think is your biggest threat?
Do you believe the Taliban and these jihadis are your biggest threat?
ASIF: Absolutely. Absolutely. There is absolutely no doubt about it. The Taliban are the -- these extremists, the terrorists. They are
the biggest threat to the peace in this region, to peace in Pakistan, to the existence of Pakistan. And we are against any -- we don't classify
between different groups of Taliban, you know, that there are good Taliban and bad Taliban. They are all bad.
AMANPOUR: And, Mr. Minister?
ASIF: Yes?
AMANPOUR: You say they're all bad. Incredibly, the Afghan leader of the Taliban, Mullah Omar, has condemned what happened in Pakistan
today.
What do you make of that?
And what do you think the backlash against the Taliban will be in your own country?
ASIF: Christiane, over the last 10 years, there used to be a lot of sympathy for Taliban or for these terrorists in Pakistan, like in
2004-5 or '06, you know. But over the last 3-4 years, this has diminished. Perhaps the sympathizers for Taliban today in Pakistan,
they are in (INAUDIBLE). They are past 5 percent or 6 percent or 7 percent or 8 percent. But there was a time when they had huge support
in Pakistan but today people realize that this is a menace and this is something which we have to eliminate.
And there is absolutely in Pakistan, there is no sympathy for any (INAUDIBLE) of Taliban, whether (INAUDIBLE) Taliban or Pakistani Taliban
or whatever denomination they have. We are against everybody. That is -- the world must recognize that and must recognize that without any
qualification, that we are fighting this war without making any differentiation between one group or the other group.
And we have approved it over and over again. We -- the different is -- this is what we've been (INAUDIBLE) said, that there's a trust
deficit between us and perhaps U.S. or any other country. That because they doubt our intention.
AMANPOUR: Well --
ASIF: And that really hurts, as I said earlier. That amounts to belittling our sacrifices, belittling our commitment to war against
terror.
AMANPOUR: Well --
ASIF: And -- yes.
AMANPOUR: -- we hear you loud and clear and obviously if today doesn't redouble the military's efforts then some have said probably
nothing will.
Defense Minister Khawaja Asif, thank you so much for joining me, as you head back to your country right now.
And as the Taliban's brutal attack on that Pakistani school reverberates around the world, in Iraq, the caliph they've pledged
allegiance to continues spreading its poisonous influence. Iraq's deputy prime minister tells me about his country's struggles with ISIS -
- that's when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Today's horrifying attack on innocent school children in Pakistan highlights a disturbing fact of
life in that region, the Taliban have increased their attacks in neighboring Afghanistan and ISIS continues its offensive in Iraq and
Syria.
Leaders of the Pakistani Taliban had even pledged their allegiance to ISIS. But Iraq's deputy prime minister, Dr. Rowsch Shaways, tells me
the new government is making some progress. He joined me earlier here in the studio.
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AMANPOUR: Dr. Shaways, welcome to the program.
ROWSCH SHAWAYS, DEPUTY PM OF IRAQ (through translator): Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You must have been shocked by the carnage and the terrorism in Pakistan today.
SHAWAYS (through translator): Yes, indeed. I was shocked. I was terribly shocked especially when an attack takes place at a school,
against innocent civilians, innocent children and teachers, which has shown the reality about terrorism, the ugly truth of terrorism.
AMANPOUR: The Pakistani Taliban senior leaders said they wanted to align themselves with ISIS, which has been wreaking such havoc in your
own country.
How is the fight against ISIS?
SHAWAYS (through translator): The fight against ISIS and the other terrorists in Iraq is now going through a stage which is different from
previous stages. In the past, the terrorists were able to accomplish some successes, particularly in Ramadi and other areas.
But now after the allies started the aerial bombardment, particularly the United States, the situation has changed.
And now the battle is turning into a new phase.
And the fighters have started now - the fighters who are fighting against terrorism are now advancing and accomplishing victories against
terrorists.
AMANPOUR: The biggest problem, of course, was the Iraqi national forces, the Iraqi army, which collapsed in front of ISIS.
Do you think they have recovered their backbone, recovered any skills in the last few months?
SHAWAYS (through translator): It is hard to tell yet. The truth is, the Iraqi military received painful blows. The least one can say is
that there were a big defeat in Mosul, Tikrit and Ramadi as well.
However, after the new -- the formation of the new government there is a new policy to reconsider the policies in the military and to
coordinate with other forces in the country, which gives some hope to the Iraqi people that there could be a successful battle against
terrorism and against those who commit mischief in Iraq.
AMANPOUR: The new prime minister, al-Abadi, who I interviewed, has actually made some quite dramatic reforms. He has appointed a Sunni
defense minister. He's trying to root up -- out corruption. He's trying to show that he's a prime minister for all Iraqis.
Is it working?
Do the Sunnis feel that he is for them as well?
Are they -- are they coming into the central government or not?
SHAWAYS (through translator): The truth is there was a good start. That was a good start. But we should not forget that the mistakes of
the past were huge and they still require some time and some courage, a lot of hard work to correct the mistakes of the past and not to repeat
them.
What's taking place now is just the beginning; I can only call it a start. But it's a new start which gives us hope and I personally hope
that the -- that the policies will become more profoundly different in order to attract our brothers from the Sunni Arab sect for mutual
interest.
AMANPOUR: Well, if it's not quite where it should be yet, by a long stretch, according to what you're saying and according to what
we're witnessing, can you explain to me the divisions between Iraq and the United States, for instance, in trying to dislodge ISIS?
Iraqis apparently feel like they want to go into Mosul in a winter offensive. The United States is saying, no, we're not ready yet. It
could become sectarian. We've got to wait until April.
Have you resolved this issue?
SHAWAYS (through translator): The truth is we still have not resolved those issues. But since Mosul is a big center of population
and, in particular, a Sunni population center, that requires deep study and profound planning.
We do not like to doubt the consent of the Mosul population itself and we cannot liberate Mosul without cooperation between the Iraqi
national army and the Peshmerga as well as the aerial bombardment from the United States.
This requires a lot of coordination among different parties, and also requires to wait for the right moment; there is no harm in giving
the matter the time it requires.
AMANPOUR: So you're not pro a winter offensive?
SHAWAYS (through translator): I do not -- I do not support any acting in haste.
AMANPOUR: And finally, there still is a central government. But maybe in name only.
The central government doesn't have any sway hardly against the Sunni heartlands, Ramadi and that area, Mosul. And your Kurdish group,
Kurds, have said they want independence.
Do you think independence is off the table for the moment with the signing of the Kirkuk oil deal between the Baghdad government and the
Kurdish government?
SHAWAYS (through translator): Now there is a federal democratic Iraq, which was formed according to a constitution.
Even that, the constitution has not been implemented completely, but abiding by what we can abide by from the constitution will maintain
the unity of Iraq and will make the Kurds feel somewhat independent within a federal, democratic, united Iraq.
Now Kurds have reached an agreement with the federal government and that agreement is a temporary one within the budget of one year only.
And we hope that this agreement, despite its long -- its short term, for one year only, that it will be renewed and it will live longer
and eventually can get us to a -- the correct or the right environment to accomplish one united, democratic Iraq with diversity among the
population.
AMANPOUR: Deputy Prime Minister Shaways, thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.
SHAWAYS: You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. too.
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AMANPOUR: And after a break, imagine a world where the victim of an extremist attack on education rises up to become its greatest
champion. Malala, when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where the barbarity that we've seen in Pakistan isn't a rarity but an all-too common
reality. More than 1,000 schools have been destroyed by the Taliban since 2010. The latest brutal attack comes just a week after Malala
Yousafzai became the youngest person ever to win a Nobel Prize, and we were in Oslo, Norway, to watch her accept along with her cowinner, the
Indian children's rights activist, Kailash Satyarthi.
Of course, Malala herself was famously attacked by the Taliban two years ago for standing up for her rights and all girls' rights to go to
school. The bullet they tried to destroy her with merely gave her a steely will and a global platform, like at the Nobel Peace Prize awards
last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALALA YOUSAFZAI, EDUCATION ACTIVIST: Why is it that giving guns is so easy but giving books is so hard?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And today, she once again stepped forward to attack the attackers and encourage the world to fight for children's rights to go
to school without fear.
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YOUSAFZAI: We stand with all those families and all those children who are injured right now and who are suffering through this big trauma.
And now it is time that we unite. And I call upon the international community, leaders in Pakistan, all political parties and everyone that
we should stand up together and fight against terrorism.
And we should make sure that every child gets safe and quality education.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
END
