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Amanpour

U.S. and Cuba Move Toward Normalizing Relations; Pakistan Holds Three Days of Mourning; Imagine A World

Aired December 17, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Alan Gross, the American who was in prison for the last five years in Cuba, making his first public statement since he

was released in a surprise development earlier today and the manifestation of what is a game-changer as he said, a historic shift in U.S. policy

towards Cuba. And we will have more on that as we resume our program and analysis in a moment.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, for the first time in over 50 years a historic new deal between the United States and Cuba.

And I'll speak live to the former head of the U.S. mission in Havana.

Also ahead as Pakistan mourns, an exclusive live interview with Afghanistan's deputy president on how to stop the Taliban.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

For the first time since the Cuban revolution five decades ago, the United States and Cuba have restores relations. Speaking at exactly the same time

from Washington and Havana, Presidents Barack Obama and Raul Castro announced a prisoner swap and a deal to ease sanctions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And though this policy has been rooted in the best of intentions, no other nation joins us in imposing

these sanctions and it has had little effect beyond providing the Cuban government with a rationale for restrictions on its people.

RAUL CASTRO, PRESIDENT OF CUBA (through translator): This decision by President Obama deserves the respect and recognition of our people. I want

to thank and recognize the support of the Vatican and especially Pope Francis for the improvement of relations between Cuba and the United

States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Well, this day took 18 months of secret negotiations, including a last meeting at the Vatican. The final touches

were made during a phone conversation yesterday between the presidents -- another first in more than half a century.

And it signals the end of a policy that was little more than what most of the world called a dusty Cold War relic. But the American embargo on Cuba,

imposed by President Kennedy in 1960, will remain in place for now until Congress decides to lift it.

A much tougher nut to crack since Congress is where the most fierce criticism of the Castro regime rests these days.

AMANPOUR: Joining me now from Havana is Wayne Smith. He's the former head of U.S. interests section in Havana.

Mr. Smith, this day has been a long time coming.

What did you know about these negotiations?

WAYNE SMITH, FORMER CHIEF, U.S. INTERESTS SECTION IN Cuba: I know nothing about the negotiations. It has been a long time coming. And we've been

pushing for it for a long time.

Now it has come and thank goodness because, look, our Cuba policy has not worked. It's been time to change it for some time now. And I think the

president has done exactly the right thing by announcing this change at this time.

We're moving toward the hemispheric summit. The United States has been -- still is, at the moment -- the only country in the hemisphere not to have

full diplomatic relations with Cuba. I think there was some question about U.S. wisdom, diplomatic wisdom, over the years because we didn't have

relations with Cuba, not to say you have to agree with Cuba, but let's have a dialogue.

AMANPOUR: Yes, Mr. Smith, you were the last -- one of the last official heads of mission or one of the first, in fact. It appears now this sort of

mission that was or interests section that was at the Swiss embassy in Havana will soon be overtaken by an actual U.S. embassy.

The U.S. is going to move towards taking Cuba off the list of state sponsors of terror.

You know, how much is this going to change not only daily life for Cubans but the behavior of the Cuban government?

SMITH: No, I think it will. Look, there's no point in making the feeling -- the Cuban government feel isolated and rejected. Much better to have

engagement dialogue. It's not to say you have to agree on everything, by any means. But no point in standing off in a corner. And now we're not

going to do that. I -- you know, look I was the chief of the U.S. interests section from 1979 to late '82. I thought at that point under

Jimmy Carter that we were going to begin a dialogue. But then Carter was not reelected; it became clear the dialogue was off in the distance. And

so I left the foreign service and joined the Center for International Policy, where I've been pushing for a sensible policy ever since.

AMANPOUR: And Mr. Smith, many, many people have, even under the Clinton administration they wanted to ease or lift the embargo; Hillary Clinton

supports it now. Most Cuban Americans actually support a change in policy as well.

But the power to lift the embargo rests in the United States Congress. Let me play for you what one of the fiercest critics, Senator Marco Rubio, said

today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLA.: The White House has conceded everything and gained little. This entire policy shift announced today is based on an

illusion, on a lie, the lie and the illusion that more commerce and access to money and goods will translate to political freedom for the Cuban

people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now whether you agree or not with that hardline view, surely the burden of proof will be on the Cuban government. Even Human Rights Watch,

in its latest report, has called Cuba a "continued repressive regime."

SMITH: Look, didn't 50 years of embargo and hardline refusal to have a dialogue, did that change the Cuban government? No, it didn't.

It resulted in absolutely nothing positive. So time, time to try something new. And thank goodness we are. Fifty years is a long time to stick with

a policy that isn't working.

AMANPOUR: And, Mr. Smith, you are of an era, if I might be so bold as to say probably you remember the attempts to shift this regime, not just

through the embargo, but the Bay of Pigs, which turned out to be a fiasco, exploding cigars and most lately an attempt by USAID to effect some kind of

regime change by trying to infiltrate the hip-hop culture.

American efforts have not worked.

SMITH: Absolutely. The hard line has not worked. Yes, I was in the U.S. embassy when we broke relations. I saw all these things. They didn't

work; they haven't worked over a period of 50 years. Bay of Pigs sabotage efforts and so forth, no, time to try something new.

As I said, for goodness sakes, don't try the same thing over and over for 50 years when it isn't working.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Fidel Castro is in a position to know, understand and approve of this?

SMITH: Yes, I think he is and certainly Raul Castro is fully cognizant. I know Fidel Castro and know Raul Castro as well. I think Raul Castro is

pragmatic, understands and I think he's someone we can work with.

AMANPOUR: And what do you hope to see?

You've seen what the United States has done; you've seen Raul Castro thank the United States and President Obama.

What should we expect as a, I don't know, confidence building measure, some kind of response from Cuba, from the government?

SMITH: Well, we'll see. I think one thing they can do is to ease up on some of the restrictions on travel and on Cuban travel abroad. But there

are all sorts of things that the Cuban government can do and I dare say they will begin to do them. They also -- Raul Castro has indicated they

would like to move in a new direction as well, not to say exactly what that new direction would be. But something new, not the same old thing.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, it is a new day indeed. Wayne Smith, thank you for joining us from Havana, former head of mission at the U.S.

Interests Section in Cuba.

So what happens on the other side of the world is a major challenge for President Obama as well. The surge in Taliban attacks in Pakistan and

Afghanistan, one day after the deadly attack on schoolchildren in Peshawar, Pakistan stopped security officials are in Kabul and I'll talk to Dr.

Abdullah Abdullah, the country's chief executive officer, next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Pakistan is a nation in mourning; funerals and prayers are being held for the victims of Tuesday's horrifying terror attack; 145 people, most of them

children, were killed by the Taliban who stormed a school in Peshawar and opened fire. The prime minister has called for three days of mourning and

has vowed to stamp out homegrown terrorism for good.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAWAZ SHARIF, PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We categorically announce that the distinction between good and bad Taliban

will not be continued at any level. Today, our national leadership has reiterated this vow of solidarity and has decided that we will continue

this war as long as there is even one terrorist remaining on our soil.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Now there's an ongoing blame game between Pakistan and Afghanistan over who's enabling terrorism most. A senior security

official said that Pakistan has proof that the deadly attack was coordinated by Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. And Pakistan's top army

general flew to Kabul today for emergency talks with the Afghan president, Ashraf Ghani.

So can the two sides unite against a common enemy?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Afghanistan's chief executive officer is Abdullah Abdullah, and he joins me live now from Kabul.

Welcome to the program. It is an incredibly serious day and you both have suffered so much from these Taliban attacks.

Has Pakistan asked you and are you able to find the people who coordinated this attack in Peshawar yesterday?

ABDULLAH ABDULLAH, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, AFGHANISTAN: First of all, we never made any distinction between good terrorists and bad terrorists. And

when this tragedy took place in Pakistan, Afghanistan was also mourning. And we -- I talked to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, President Ashraf Ghani

talked to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and if there is one lesson in what has happened in Pakistan, that these terrorists no wonder (sic) what's the

history of them, or what they were doing earlier, at the end of the day, they will turn against every state and every state institutions. So the

sooner that decision and that critical decision of not making any distinction between good one and bad one among the terrorists is taken,

that will be in the better interest of all of us.

So while I don't want to get into what has happened in the past that we all know that our people have suffered for so many years because of the

terrorist actions, and we know where those terrorists were and where their camps were, now there is a new phase of relations between Afghanistan and

Pakistan. And then there is a claim that some of these terrorists might be in the border areas, at the side of the line.

While we don't have any proof of that, but at the same time there is no doubt that Afghan government believes that terrorism, radicalism is a

common threat if there is anything that we can do to prevent people crossing to our side of the border and making use of our territory, we will

not hesitate.

AMANPOUR: Dr. Abdullah, it is obviously a moment of extreme urgency. There's a new administration in Afghanistan and you have made -- there

seems to be a new willingness to -- for everybody to cooperate across borders and in the international community.

But you, too, are facing a real upsurge in Taliban attacks.

How is this going to be confronted by your own forces and are you concerned about the pulling back of international forces?

ABDULLAH: Our forces have assumed full responsibility of combat operations while a year or two ago there were 150,000 international troops in

Afghanistan. Now it is around perhaps 15,000 of them. So there are security forces, our national army, national police, national (INAUDIBLE)

security have assumed responsibility and full responsibility for the combat operations.

Nevertheless, that Taliban recently, especially in the past few days and weeks, they have increased their level of activities and there have been

lots of casualties, civilians and otherwise, in our part. But we are pretty sure with the continuation of support from the international

community and visible support mission, which NATO decided, which will start first January 2015, the support for our forces and training, assisting and

support mission will continue and we will be able to deal with it, if Taliban have any illusion of taking over parts of Afghanistan or

Afghanistan as a whole. That's an illusion, absolutely. Talibanization and radical ideas have been rejected by our people.

AMANPOUR: They have indeed and an overwhelming majority voted against that in the last presidential elections.

How do you think the Taliban are finally going to be confronted and eliminated as a threat? Either in Pakistan or in Afghanistan? As you

know, there's competing ideas of either fighting them or negotiating with them.

ABDULLAH: The point is that our policy towards Taliban is very clear. The -- while the door for negotiations is open, at the same time we will have

to defend our people. And that sensate and general cooperation between Afghanistan and Pakistan will help. And the situation which didn't exist

before, it was only blame game and we knew that Taliban enjoyed sanctuaries and free right and the leadership are still there and the situation is very

clear what I'm talking about.

So it is the right moment for all of us to decide once and for all that terrorists will not serve any country's national interest. And to deal

with them in an outright manner and even to honor the losses and the sacrifices that Pakistani army has made in dealing with Taliban and

fighting against the Taliban or Pakistani people have made, the right way to honor is to deal with it in an outright manner. And Afghanistan is

ready to cooperate.

AMANPOUR: Well, those are very, very hopeful words from the chief executive officer of Afghanistan at this critical time. Dr. Abdullah,

thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.

ABDULLAH: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And after a break, imagine a world where religion can be a force for good. Cuban President Raul Castro, as you heard, thanked the pope for

facilitating this change in relations with the United States; perhaps it's been boiling, though, since 1998, when his brother, Fidel, was president

and Francis' predecessor, John Paul II, became the first pope ever to visit Cuba. I was there when it happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Good evening from Havana. Today, an invasion of new ideas, an invasion of hope; tens of thousands of Cubans are listening to the pope.

John Paul II wants to see the crippling U.S. embargo lifted from Cuba. He also promises to speak forcefully for human rights here, just as he did in

Eastern Europe. Tonight, he had that chance at a meeting with Fidel Castro.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as both Cuban and American presidents simultaneously declared the resumption of diplomatic relations after nearly

54 years, imagine a world frozen in time. That's Cuba since the U.S. embargo was imposed half a century ago. That's the world I witnessed

during Pope John Paul's historic visit in 1998.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The casual observer may see all of this and think Cuba is the land of plenty. But look a little closer and you'll find a lot

of people just looking.

The typical couple comes here perhaps once every two weeks, examines every stall and scrutinizes every price because the average salary is less than

$10 a month. And the U.S. embargo means that every pepper, every peanut is a luxury.

This is where most people buy their staples, at the state grocery store, where prices are subsidized and amounts are fixed -- when they're

available.

Every Cuban household gets a monthly ration book. One bar of soap, six pounds of rice. Only families with children under 7 get milk. At the state

store, rice costs the equivalent of less than 2 cents a pound, but the state doesn't supply nearly enough to last the month. And at the farmer's

market, rice costs 15 times as much. We ask these people how they survive.

One man told us he manages on his pension and help from his grown children. But others interrupt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I haven't bought anything yet today. I'm going to see if I can afford anything. If I can't, I'll go

back to my home emptyhanded and what will my children eat?

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Orlando tells us he can barely live on what he earns and he earns an average wage. He has three children, a 4-year old, a

2-year old and a newborn.

The whole family lives in one room, no bathroom, no refrigerator, a cooking stove in the corner. Orlando's daily obsession: finding milk for the

children. He's a hospital orderly who has to work odd jobs on his off hours. The milk he needs costs one-third of his monthly salary.

Others need medicine, restricted by the U.S. embargo.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The Americans are strangling us. My daughter is sick and we don't have medicine. They should lift the

embargo. Down with the Helms-Burton law.

AMANPOUR: Zeera's (ph) got prescription for drugs to treat a basic stomach parasite, but the pharmacies don't stock it. They don't stock much of

anything; the shelves are practically bare.

At Cuba's best pediatric hospital, the staff works around the shortages. They ration everything from x-rays to operations. Emergency surgery is

performed; the rest must wait. The best keep its medicine and equipment are 90 miles away in the United States but the embargo forces Cuba to pay

four times as much to ship supplies thousands of miles from South Korea.

It's both stressful and immoral, say the doctors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in war I have to treat the enemy soldier exactly the same, the same dedication as my own soldier, you know. If American

people knew this, things would change in less than 34 hours because the American people is normal, is humane, is sympathetic.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Havana looks like America, frozen in time. The Chevies and the Buicks are all classics from the '50s and every street

features one with its hood up. Like everything else, the cars here run on individual ingenuity.

Wherever you go, whoever you talk to, you always hear people blame the U.S. embargo for all their woes. But the fact is that Cuba's rigid socialist

structures are as much to blame for this country's dysfunctional economy.

A few openly admit that and the complain about a growing elite.

"Most people are suffering," says this woman. "But those at the top by Fidel's side live very well."

And the gap gets wider. In 1993, Fidel Castro allowed ordinary Cubans to hold dollars and open special dollar stores. But not everyone has access

to those dollars.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): At those stores, there is everything. But we have no dollars because Fidel doesn't pay us in

dollars.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Pesos don't buy much. But still, people like Orlando don't wake up every morning plotting how to overthrow Fidel;

rather, how to find milk for their children.

ORLANDO (through translator): I don't know who to blame. There are many people like me.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And there's other politics of survival.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now imagine a world where a new pope helps propel these two adversaries and their people towards a better future.

That's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always watch the show at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for

watching and goodbye from London.

END