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Amanpour

Yemeni Prime Minister Surrounded By Houthi Militia; Europe On High Alert After Paris Attacks; Combating Terrorism in Pakistan; Imagine a World

Aired January 19, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: with his hold on power tenuously Yemeni president holds crisis talks with rebels. The

information minister tells me that the prime minister's residence is also surrounded by armed Houthi.

Yemen, of course, hosts Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which carried out the Paris attacks. Turmoil there fuels terror here.

And a turning point against the Taliban in Pakistan after their army's school massacre last month.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): We have to go against the phenomenon of terrorism, against all terrorists (INAUDIBLE).

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Yemen, one of Al Qaeda's most important home bases teeters between government and rebel forces at this hour. The information minister tells

me tonight her government has almost no control and the prime minister, who was fired upon earlier today, is now holed up in his home, surrounded by

heavily armed Shiite Houthi rebels. They are still holding the president's chief of staff, whom they kidnapped on Saturday. The president right now

is in crisis talks with rebels about that.

There is, in fact, a cease-fire in place at this hour after a day of heavy fighting in the capital, Sanaa. Yemen, of course, has the world's

attention as home of Al Qaeda's most dangerous affiliate AQAP, which claimed responsibility for the attack on "Charlie Hebdo" in Paris.

One of the Kouachi brothers said he received training from them in Yemen.

So what happens here matters there and the U.S. has a massive anti-terror operation in that country. Amid the latest developments in this crisis, I

reached Yemen's information minister, Nadia al-Saqqaf, by phone in the capital, Sanaa.

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Minister Saqqaf, thank you for joining me from Sanaa.

NADIA AL-SAQQAF, YEMEN'S INFORMATION MINISTER: Thanks.

AMANPOUR: The prime minister was fired upon today.

What is the situation right now?

SAQQAF: Well, he is at his place but currently he's been surrounded by Houthi militia around his place. And they have stationed themselves at

rooftops of neighboring buildings. He is worried that the situation might escalate.

AMANPOUR: Has he just talked to you?

SAQQAF: Right now I just spoke to him on the phone and he's worried because he said I am not going to remain a prisoner.

AMANPOUR: This looks very dangerous, Minister.

SAQQAF: Yes, definitely, because he was just shot at this morning and now his place of residence is being surrounded.

AMANPOUR: Does he have a proper security force to fend this off?

SAQQAF: He does. And he is saying that if he needs, he will use it.

AMANPOUR: So as yet, there's no firefight.

SAQQAF: No, but he's worried that if they come closer or if they try to intimidate that he's not just going to surrender and they come in and have

a cup of tea.

AMANPOUR: So it'll be a battle.

SAQQAF: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Tell me how bad it is right now.

What is the state of control of the government:

SAQQAF: Almost non-existent.

AMANPOUR: Are you telling me the government is not in control?

SAQQAF: Yes, shocking, huh?

AMANPOUR: It is shocking. Can you describe what you're saying?

SAQQAF: What I'm saying is that this is almost a replica of what happened in September, on the 21st of September, when the Houthis came into the city

and took over everything. And there was the peace and partnership agreement, where they pulled back a little bit and allowed a government to

be created.

Now since then, the Houthis have not really left the capital. They've been around with their arms and what happened is that they've been interfering

in the government's work. But we were trying to go by and try and get this country going.

The political process was also happening, but at a slower pace. Now the Houthis has some demands that were not met earlier, although some of them

were inside the -- were part of the partnership and -- peace and partnership agreement.

AMANPOUR: Ms. Saqqaf, can you describe to me exactly what happened today, as best as you know?

Did they storm the palace? Have they taken physical control of any government buildings?

SAQQAF: Their control of government buildings has started two months ago, actually. It's not just today, though in really the Houthis were in

control of the capital before today. What happened last night is that the state military directed by Hadi, were asked to install their own

checkpoints in the streets.

And before last night, the checkpoints in the different streets, the security checkpoints belonged to Houthis and not to the state. And the

office manager of the president was kidnapped before yesterday and he is still under custody.

And they said that they are going to escalate and kidnap other government officials.

AMANPOUR: So what politically happens next? What about the constitution that the Houthis say they don't agree with?

How do you move forward?

SAQQAF: We don't. We move backward. We go back to the constitution drafting committee; probably the chance of this committee will -- the

structure of this committee will change, maybe new people will be added.

Some parts of the constitution draft will change and then the authority that's responsible for checking the constitution and its alignment with the

national dialogue conference outcomes is going to be changed as well.

So basically it will -- the entire political process will go backward.

AMANPOUR: Of course outside of Yemen, your country is important on many levels, not least in the fight against Al Qaeda. Obviously that's been

highlighted by the attack in Paris. And the claims of responsibility by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, AQAP, in your homeland.

Can you describe to me the level of threat, the level of danger you face from them right now?

SAQQAF: Al Qaeda is not a very visible entity. So it could be anywhere and with the chaotic situation, with not having just one particular entity

in charge of security, that is an added threat, because there's no accountability as the security responsible piece spreads between Houthis

and what remains of the state security.

The other problem is that while we were under -- this morning it was so chaotic that they said that nobody knew what was going on and who was in

charge. And these are situations where Al Qaeda can easily infiltrate and create -- either put its men amongst the people or easily target.

AMANPOUR: And what is the government's reaction to the claim by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula that they organized and planned the Paris attack?

SAQQAF: We have always condemned Al Qaeda as a terrorist because the precautions (ph) of this is not just on the world. It's first on Yemen.

Tourism has disappeared in Yemen. The relationship between Yemen and different countries has strained.

And we don't still have control over the country as it is. So you can imagine how Yemenis themselves felt, knowing that this is the image of

Yemen in the world.

AMANPOUR: Well, we keep watching your country and the developments.

Information Minister Nadia al-Saqqaf, thank you for joining me from Sanaa tonight.

SAQQAF: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now Peter Neumann is the director of the International Center for the Study of Radicalization. It was founded seven years ago and it was

the first global initiative of its type.

Welcome back to the program.

PETER NEUMANN, DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF RADICALIZATION: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: An incredibly frank and bleak portrait painted by Yemen's information minister.

NEUMANN: Absolutely. And ultimately the reason why we have this situation today is the same reason why Al Qaeda is in Yemen, which is that the

government is very weak, that you have a very chaotic situation, different tribal factions fighting each other.

And it is always in these conditions that terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda thrive.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about this, because everybody is very confused about what's been going on since the French attacks. Is Al Qaeda still a

huge threat? Is ISIS still a huge threat? Which is the bigger threat? Did intelligence take their eyes off Al Qaeda while they were so focused on

ISIS?

NEUMANN: For the first time now, we have two groups within the jihadist camp. We have Al Qaeda and we have ISIS. Now of course, last year, ISIS

was on the offensive. It was starting a country essentially.

And Al Qaeda people have been feeling that they were on the defensive and there may well be a competition between the different groups. And the one

thing that Al Qaeda believes it still can do in order to regain the offensive is to launch spectacular attacks in the West.

AMANPOUR: Such as the "Charlie Hebdo."

NEUMANN: For example, even though by AQAP standards, that was a pretty low-level operation. I think it's still credible that AQAP was responsible

because of the professionalism with which it was carried out. I doubt that Islamic State right now would be capable of organizing such a professional

organization inside the West.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's get to Islamic State, because the Belgian authorities are saying the anti-terror operation was directly linked to

jihadis coming back from Syria. That is Islamic State.

So are the two working together in any form or fashion?

NEUMANN: Well, there is a debate about that. I think it is right now inconceivable. If you have followed the history of the Syrian conflict,

you realize how these groups have hated each other over the past year and a half, how they have fought each other, killed each other's members.

The idea that you have a joint operation by Islamic State and Al Qaeda I find impossible to conceive.

However, there may be a -- there is a slight chance that people at the grassroots level have decided to collaborate --

AMANPOUR: So do you mean like Coulibaly and the Kouachis --

NEUMANN: Exactly. They've known each other for a long time and they may well have said, we're working together on this.

And of course, at the grassroots level, we've seen the jihadist reaction on social media. And even staunch supporters of the Islamic State have

cheered this attack by Al Qaeda, even though it was Al Qaeda.

AMANPOUR: You're here. What chatter are you seeing because the MI-5 chief said just a couple of weeks ago that they expect another mass casualty

event here in Britain or anywhere else in the West linked to Syria and that they've actually stopped dozens -- well, a dozen or so -- Syria-based

plots?

NEUMANN: I've repeatedly said I think this is probably the most dangerous situation that we've had for 10 years or so, because of the people

returning from Syria, because of the supporters that have stayed back here and also because of Al Qaeda's need to prove that it is still relevant.

So there are a number of things that are coming together right now that are, I think, strongly increasing the likelihood of there being further

attacks --

AMANPOUR: And what is your analysis of what happened in Belgium?

NEUMANN: Well, my analysis --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- going on around Europe right now?

NEUMANN: -- my analysis is that there are fighters returning from Syria. There are, in some cases -- not all of them, but in some cases they are

dangerous because they have been militarily trained. They do have networks. In many cases they've been brutalized. If they connect to the

people who've been supporters, who do not have these skills right now, you could have a very dangerous mix.

AMANPOUR: What is the answer? You know Prime Minister Cameron and others would like to close down the so-called dark corners of the Internet, would

like to get the cooperation of big Internet companies, big online companies, to allow information.

What does that mean -- what does that mean in the hunt for these plots/

NEUMANN: I think it could be one part of the answer. I think there's another thing that is even more important. What we're seeing right now is

predominantly an increase in the volume of threats. There are more people to watch by security services than ever in the last 10 years.

And this is about capacity. It's not necessarily about legal powers. I think there is a case to be made for more people watching potential

suspects, whether they need new powers, I'm not so sure about.

AMANPOUR: And lastly, you're also hearing people who've gone there. We're hearing a lot of sort of talk and reports that a lot of people who've gone

there are disillusioned and want to leave the ISIS.

NEUMANN: There are certainly some people. I cannot exactly quantify it, but it's probably a minority who are disillusioned, who went over in 2012-

2013 because they wanted to fight Bashar al-Assad, who believed that there was a genocide going on against the Sunni people of Syria.

Now that they are down there, the conflict has changed into something completely different. They feel that they are being trapped. They want to

come back and it's incredibly difficult for them to come back because of the current situation and because they are likely to be locked up for a

long time to come.

AMANPOUR: Peter Neumann, thank you very much. Thanks for joining me.

NEUMANN: Thanks.

AMANPOUR: So of course the tentacles of terror are gripping Europe, the Middle East and Pakistan. After a break, I will ask a senior army general

whether the massacre at an army school was a turning point in the country's war against extremists.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Now Pakistan is one of several Islamic countries where demonstrations continue against "Charlie Hebdo." Like French

authorities hunting down accomplices after the Paris attack, Pakistani security forces are also on the hunt for the killers of more than 140

people, the vast majority of them schoolchildren in Peshawar last month.

My next guest is Major General Asim Bajwa. He's the Pakistani army spokesman and he tells me that several arrests have been made. And just

like the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre in France, the slaughter of children at an army school is a turning point for Pakistan's fight against the Taliban.

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AMANPOUR: Major General Bajwa, welcome to the program.

The school that was so terribly, viciously attacked has reopened and the kids are going back.

Is it ever possible to guarantee their safety?

Have you got a lot more security in place now?

MAJOR GENERAL ASIM SALEEM BAJWA, DIRECTOR GENERAL, INTER-SERVICES PUBLIC RELATIONS, PAKISTAN: Yes. There is a lot more security at the national

level. It is very difficult to go in for the point security in each school, but there is a concept of security.

That has been evolved and there is a review of security at every level. I think it is very difficult to guarantee that nothing of this kind happens

anywhere in the world. We just saw what happened in Paris.

We have seen school shootouts in places like America, which is the most developed democracy of the world and it's a very good functioning system.

AMANPOUR: Has this been a turning point in relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan?

BAJWA: I would say this has given a huge fillip to the relations. But the relations were already on a positive trajectory, especially ever since we

had a new government in Afghanistan.

There has been a growing cooperation. There has been a growing understanding between the two countries.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. secretary of state has come through Pakistan. And he did praise the Pakistani authorities, the security authorities, for

stepping up the war against these militants.

But he is still -- and the U.S. is still asking for more attempts to go after the Haqqanis, for instance, who are conducting attacks against U.S.

forces across the border and on more consistent attacks against militants in Northern Waziristan.

Are you yet doing enough against these militants?

BAJWA: Well, I would say that we are doing enough as far as North Waziristan is concerned. We've already cleared a major part of North

Waziristan except for a small belt of area, of terrain, just next to Afghanistan border. There are air and aviation gunship strikes, which are

continuing.

And there will be ground operation as well.

AMANPOUR: For years, these militant groups have been considered by some, at some point, an asset.

Do you still think that?

Are you being able to get yourself away from the collusion in some instances with these militants?

BAJWA: First of all, you know if you want to go back then you need to go to the time of Afghan jihad and the border of Afghanistan --

AMANPOUR: I know all about that. But I want to know now, because it's now.

BAJWA: -- OK. I will tell you. You know, that was a time who all raised, fed, trained and used these people. Now coming to now, Pakistan is very

clear, very determined. There are no good terrorists. There is no collusion. We are absolutely clear, no confusion in our mind.

We are going against all terrorists without any discrimination of hue and color. I think there is no confusion in our mind that we have to go

against the phenomenon of terrorism, against all terrorists, and their abettors.

AMANPOUR: And now the question is, are you up to it?

Is the Pakistan force -- and I say this with deep sympathy for all of your people who've been killed during this and for those children, who were

slaughtered because of your latest assault against the Taliban -- but are you up to it?

BAJWA: I would say this is an insult to the Pakistani people and Pakistani forces if you ask this kind of question. When I say we're very clear and

we are capable of dealing with them.

However, if you see the nature of this conflict, you see the U.S. forces in Iraq, then in Afghanistan, they've been there for so long, you look at the

ISAF forces. The scale and magnitude of the forces and resources which are employed and look at the performance of Pakistani forces, they have done an

excellent job.

We have been so effective and we've achieved the desired results. And we are expanding it. We will go to the last terrorist and we will eliminate

terrorism totally from our soil.

AMANPOUR: Where do you see this going now in the future?

BAJWA: I would say that as long as we are very clear, we have made the decision. If you see in Pakistan we have really seen this crisis as an

opportunity. The whole nation has come together. There is a whole of nation approach. You've seen the entire political leadership take on one

table and take certain decisions for the future of our country.

This is a fight which is against an enemy who is focused and who is very clear that the whole world is their enemy. So we, the whole world, need to

come together, join our hands and fight this common enemy with common resources and with common narrative.

No one in the whole world could imagine that they would become such brutal savages who would just get into any school at random and slaughter so many

students.

And you know it has shaken not only Pakistan, it has shaken the whole world. And we are grateful to the world for showing their solidarity at

this time of great pain and grief.

AMANPOUR: Since the attack on the school at Peshawar, the death penalty was reimposed in certain issues. And the military has now been charged

with military courts, with being able to prosecute, try and judge these so- called terrorist suspects.

Are you worried about the backlash, the blowback of these executions?

BAJWA: There is always a chance of blowback. So now that the military has been mandated, it has a sunset clause for two years. But there is also a

criminal justice reform which is underway.

So this military court is a stopgap arrangement which has now been given to the military for a period of two years while the criminal justice system is

under reform.

AMANPOUR: General Bajwa, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

BAJWA: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now across the United States, people are paying tribute to one of their greatest leaders ever, Martin Luther King, who fought for civil

rights and ending racism.

And on this day, MLK Day, MTV is broadcasting in black-and-white throughout to trigger more debate about a society that still sees in black-and-white.

That's after a break, imagining a world where half a century later, Martin Luther King's dream is still a distant one.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, 50 years ago, Martin Luther King took his civil rights crusade to a small Alabama town called Selma. Now imagine a

world 50 years later that's still haunted by the racial divisions that Dr. King fought to stop, where reconciliation is still a distant dream. That

is the America "The New Yorker" magazine depicted on its cover this week, a portrait of Dr. King marching beside those who've died in the United States

in these times defined by racial strife, the African American Eric Garner of Staten Island, New York; Trayvon Martin and Ferguson's Michael Brown and

the Asian American police officer Wenjian Liu, who was murdered in revenge.

Now Hollywood is abuzz with complaints of a missed opportunity because the critically acclaimed film, "Selma," a biopic of King and his epic march,

received only two Oscar nominations, fewer than other nominated films with less favorable reviews.

And indignation is mounting as this is the first year since 1998 when no black actors were nominated. If the Academy fell short, however, the White

House stamped its seal of approval on the film and its historic significance. America's first African American president, Barack Obama,

hosted a special screening over the weekend, honoring the man who laid out a simple dream half a century ago.

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MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER: I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up, live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold

these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

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AMANPOUR: And more than 50 years later, those words still ring true.

That's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from London.

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