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Captain Found Guilty in Costa Concordia Disaster; Ukraine Peace Talks Underway in Minsk; With Nigeria Vote Delayed, Opposition Speaks; Imagine a World

Aired February 11, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: make or break for Europe? Crunch talks underway in Belarus to end the war in Ukraine and

Greece goes to Brussels to get a better debt deal.

Is this a continent on the cusp of change? I'll ask the Lithuanian foreign minister, Linas Linkevicius, who's live in Vilnius.

Plus: is a former military strongman about to become Nigeria's next president? General Muhammadu Buhari joins me live from Abuja.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

President Putin has arrived at the presidential palace in Minsk to meet with President Poroshenko. But we are going to go to Italy right now

before continuing with the story because a verdict apparently has been reached in the Costa Concordia disaster that happened three years ago.

The captain has been on trial.

JUDGE GIOVANNI PULIATTI: . section 103.1 of the penal code in relation to the offense and also in the breach that happened after this is upheld. The

two main charges and he is now convicted to the 16 years in jail plus pay the court's proceedings expenses, five years in jail for section article

449 applied for the (INAUDIBLE), 10 years for the special hypothesis (ph) according to article 559 of the penal code, one year of in jail according

to section 31 of the penal code in relation to the charges for the gravity of this serious crime according to the penal code. One month also of

arrest. (INAUDIBLE) 29, 30 or 31 of (INAUDIBLE) Francesco that he will be banned from public office and disqualified for five years during these

legal execution of the sentence according to the article 1083 (INAUDIBLE) of the navigation code and we declare Schettino, Francesco, banned from the

profession for four months.

Having looked at article 138 and 39 of the penal code, we sentence Schettino, Francesco and Costa Crociere up to pay damages to the civil

parties and the sum will be determined in each case as follows: 30,000 euros to each of the civil parties, (INAUDIBLE).

AMANPOUR: Well, as the judge there, three-panel judge is reading out the names of the victims, 32 people were killed in that Costa Concordia

disaster three years ago. The sentence has been handed down: 16 years in jail for the captain on manslaughter charges. We go now to our

correspondent, Barbie Nadeau, who is there outside the courtroom.

Barbie, is this what people expected the verdict to be?

BARBIE NADEAU, "THE DAILY BEAST": This is very much what people expected the verdict to be. People were talking about between 14 and 18 years

(INAUDIBLE) in part because five people from the Costa cruise line company have already (INAUDIBLE) found guilty in this case. They've taken plea

bargains. That has taken away some of the culpability on Schettino's part.

He also has an automatic appeal. So there'll be an appellate process sometime in the next year, which could knock this sentence down a little

bit. The one thing we don't know right now though is if he has to go directly to jail, if he can wait until that appellate process is over,

that's something the judge is going to make an announcement at the end of what he's reading now -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And just quickly, this case obviously transfixed the world when it -- when the disaster happened. And it had a huge impact on Italy as

well.

NADEAU: Absolutely. This really is a bookend to a national embarrassment and really a national tragedy that so many Italians I think were very

worried that the court wouldn't find him guilty, very, very worried that this wouldn't end in a way that at least gives Italy a little bit of its

dignity back.

You know, for the people of the island of Giglio who are watching this tonight on a big screen and the local square, they are really, really happy

that the Italian justice system found him guilty.

The number of years he served, really, though, not a big surprise. I don't think anyone thought he would have -- be sentenced to the full 26 years and

3 months they were asking for.

But again, the appellate proceed in Italy, there are three levels of every court case. The second, the appellate process is second grade, will -- is

in a right of Schettino's to appeal. And we expect him to appeal. His lawyers told us before this verdict was read that if it's anything more

than five years, they will appeal. So we can expect this show not to be over for a long time yet -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, this story goes on a first verdict has been reached, Barbie Nadeau, outside the courtroom, thanks so much for joining us.

And we are going to return to the big story for Europe today and that is the peace talks in Ukraine -- for Ukraine, rather. President Putin has

arrived at the presidential palace in Minsk to meet with President Poroshenko of Ukraine as European leaders right now are trying to broker an

end to the war in the east.

But intense fighting continued throughout the day. Russian-backed separatists continue to fire at Ukrainian forces as they try to take more

territory. And as Donetsk came under heavy shelling again, NATO reports that President Putin has amassed another 10 battalions on the border and

there are fears that it could -- if the strategic town of Debaltseve falls, the port of Mariupol could be in Russia's crosshairs next.

Perhaps nobody's watching events in Minsk more closely than the former Baltic States, now members of Europe and NATO. They have endured months of

Russian provocations right on their doorstep and in their airspace.

Linas Linkevicius is the foreign minister of Lithuania and he joins me now from Vilnius.

Foreign Minister, welcome back to the program.

You know, first and foremost, we've seen this movie before. This could be called Minsk talks 2.

Do you have any hope that this time around a cease-fire can be agreed and will stick?

LINAS LINKEVICIUS, FM, LITHUANIA: Well, hope dies the last, probably. Everyone has a hope and we always think moment of true but so many moments

of true were before. And even if these negotiations will end up in positive way, to be too early to say that something happened because we

really suggest upon the -- upon the developments on the ground which was we all understand not necessarily a match to the statements.

AMANPOUR: Well, the developments on the ground are quite worrying. We've had days and right up to the hours around these talks of really stepped-up

fighting, scores of people have been killed, scores of Ukrainian forces as well as civilians.

What do you think a good scenario is?

What could be achieved at these talks that you would find satisfying?

LINKEVICIUS: Well, first of all, very important to have cease-fire because every day, people dying. Civilian population have nothing to do with what

happening. And they really suffering most of all.

But it's not enough because so far, when these negotiations taking -- were taking place, it was used for Russia to support separatists or terrorists

we can say. That's to acquire more arms. And even if you would have a look into the map, about the territories controlled by the separatists from

August so to say, it's rapidly expanding. And the tactics was to use this time to grab more territories in order to have the depositions for

negotiations.

So this is a spirit before and this is also something which is having some (INAUDIBLE) influence now.

AMANPOUR: Well, the reason we have you on is not only because of your expert analysis but because you are from the Baltic States and that the

Russians have been provoking and probing by air and other ways for the last several months. We've had you on before to talk about this.

Has that stopped? Do you feel more secure? Are the new announcements that NATO will put more bases, including in your state, does that bring you a

sense of security?

LINKEVICIUS: Definitely it's very important and we talked the last time and I can repeat all this presence and physical footprints (INAUDIBLE) in

our territory meet element of headquarters or exercises or training facilities, everything has some making difference. And this is really has

to do with the psychological (INAUDIBLE) insurance and also very important in the context of implementing the decisions which were made in Wales, in

NATO summit.

So we really value very much all these decisions and especially implementation of these decisions.

AMANPOUR: So do you think that'll be enough, these new bases and there are six of them, to deter President Putin and I understand that you are already

taking measures to prepare people in your country in case there is war.

LINKEVICIUS: I hope not just us but all of us (INAUDIBLE) appearing because we have to -- so to say to do with the something which was not

conventional before. We are calling it hybrid war, asymmetric threats. We are calling this unusual so to say moves which were by -- made by green

men, by white tracks, name it. It's something else and we really should review our manuals. We should review our tactics. I would say not only

us, Baltic States, but all NATO so to say machinery should adjust to the new so to say reality.

And this is really I hope it concerns not just us but all of our alliance.

AMANPOUR: But to the actual specific question, do you think President Putin is being deterred from any moves on you? Because obviously if it

happens to you, it brings NATO in in a collective defense.

LINKEVICIUS: It seems that the Russian leadership now visit with Ukraine and checking, testing our unity and also, as I said, grabbing more

territories, again denying being party to the conflict, same so to say, well, same text, same position. I hope it's not convincing to many. But

nevertheless, they continue with the same tactics and also checking our unity.

Always, always it worked so far. Why not to repeat again, to check, are we really united? Are we really going to implement what we are deciding? Do

we mean that our words are important? And this is really yet another opportunity. Some would say the last one; I don't know whether it's the

last, but it's really yet another opportunity to check whether we are serious and it seems that other side is really serious.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me get a unity check from you.

Do you feel that unity is there?

LINKEVICIUS: Well, so far, it's manageable. I shouldn't say that it's very easy, because very difficult to reach sometimes agreements. So far

it's working. But as we said some time ago, it's really sometimes coming too late, too little and it's really also matters. And by the way, time is

also not on our side. If we talk about Ukraine, definitely military threats are important but economic threats not less important. And again

time not our side and not on our side. So all very complex so to say threats coming and we really should take them on time, not too late, but

sometimes it seems not the case.

AMANPOUR: You have said basically, using your Twitter account, that you can't, quote, "trust a single word President Putin says," that it's

worthless until proven on the ground.

And you've also said, "Denying arms to Ukraine, we do not eliminate the military solution; we enable a Russian military solution."

Are you convinced that actually providing lethal weaponry to Ukraine will change anything on the ground?

LINKEVICIUS: Look, situation is really clear in my view. External aggression against Ukraine from Russia, although they denying but it's

quite clear it's taking place and then, you know, they already conducted this military solution. So by not helping Ukraine, but by not supporting

them with the arms, we are really not contributing to peaceful solution. We are contributing to the Russian military solution.

And if our task to make sure that they will -- they destroy the Ukrainian army in Debaltseve, as you mentioned, or Mariupol, and will be peace after

that, I don't think that we should celebrate that kind of peace. And this is really something I cannot follow this logic. We really have to help

them simply to withstand and also to support -- to defend their territory, their sovereignty. It's right and I would say it's also their duty.

AMANPOUR: As we see whether anything comes out of these talks, can I switch to other very important talks that have been going on in Brussels

and that is regarding Greece and its debt.

You, your country, this year, January, joined the Eurozone. Are you prepared to pay for Greece's debt if they say, well, we're not going to

abide by these terms that we've been under for the last couple of years?

LINKEVICIUS: I would put that in this way, you know, solidarity is important definitely but responsibility also important. Stability of

Eurozone is important. We have our own legacy, you know, some experience and there after 2008, after the crisis, our economy dropped 15 points. We

cut salaries, pensions, salaries we have cut by 20 percent. So we really suffered a lot. But without external assistance, we managed to cope with

that situation and now our GDP growth among the best in Europe, in union, almost 3 percent. So my point is that we really should take these

initiatives but we should also count who will pay the bills.

And by the way, let me mention our so to say minimum wages are the twice less than in Greece. So why I'm saying this? Responsibility not less

important than all these statements and I believe the leadership talk with the Greece in this way.

AMANPOUR: Fascinating, two amazingly monumental things going on, the war in Ukraine and the Greek debt. Thank you so much, Foreign Minister, for

joining me from Vilnius tonight.

And a note about the host country for these peace talks, which is Belarus, the president, Aleksandr Lukashenko, condemned the Kremlin's annexation of

Crimea last year. But he also happens to host Europe's last dictatorship. He's been in power for more than two decades. After a break, we turn to

another leader who's saving democracy for later and that is Nigerian President Goodluck Jonathan, who's delayed crucial elections for six weeks,

long enough to save him from a hard-charging opponent? General Muhammadu Buhari, that opponent, live from Abuja -- next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And now we turn to Nigeria, who are meant to be voting for a new president this very Saturday. But the

vote in America's -- rather, in Africa's economic powerhouse and its most populous democracy has been delayed at least six weeks because of the

violence and insecurity caused by Boko Haram terrorists.

President Goodluck Jonathan has just been speaking with the media about this very issue. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOODLUCK JONATHAN, PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA: Nobody is saying that they must wipe out Boko Haram completely before conducting elections in this country.

But definitely, in the next six weeks or so, serious advances will be made. But I'm not saying wipe out Boko Haram.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So promising to make the security situation there better for the people, and when they do vote, they will face a difficult choice between

reelecting President Jonathan after five years in which security and corruption have got much worse in Nigeria, or electing my guest tonight,

the dark horse candidate, General Muhammadu Buhari, who ruled briefly 30 years ago after taking power in a coup.

Incredibly, polls show the two candidates are now neck and neck and General Buhari joins me now from the capital, Abuja.

General, welcome to the program. Can I ask you first your reaction to the delay in this election by six weeks and to what you just heard President

Goodluck Jonathan say, that they will make inroads into much more security within the next six weeks?

MUHAMMADU BUHARI, NIGERIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, (INAUDIBLE) appointments because the politician may by in defendant national

(INAUDIBLE) were better they are ready to conduct the election on the days (INAUDIBLE) ago and for them to be forced naturally by the military that

they cannot guarantee their safety of their workers, they have to concede to the demand of the military an additional six weeks.

Now since those six weeks are within the constitutional time allowed, that is why we came and asked our supporters to remain calm and resolute --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: OK.

BUHARI: -- and or be the loss.

AMANPOUR: OK, General. Let me ask you because you are a former military general. You were ruling the country briefly. Why is it that the Nigerian

military today cannot take on Boko Haram and have failed to combat that terrorist organization?

BUHARI: Well, this has been made much more clear when the national assembly attempted to conduct a hearing after soldiers were given

(INAUDIBLE) media about being sent to the front without proper weapons. The national assembly attempted to conduct a hearing by getting the budgets

approved by the national assembly over the last three years and inviting the (INAUDIBLE) to come and tell them why is it the weapons were not

procured and sent to the soldiers and their competent leadership? And this year was the curtain (ph). So in short, the application or the

appropriation of the resources provided by government (INAUDIBLE) the Nigerian military was unable to defeat Boko Haram.

AMANPOUR: General, you today just got a huge, massive endorsement from a former ally of President Goodluck Jonathan, that is the former president

Obasanjo.

How do you react to that? I mean, what will that do for your campaign?

BUHARI: Well, it will certainly bring more supporters to us and more confidence again to us for those who were sitting on the fence because

General Obasanjo is highly respected and that's why the Nigerian militia is concerned there is no serious issue that can be discussed without

(INAUDIBLE) his opinion and (INAUDIBLE).

AMANPOUR: Can I now ask you about yourself because headlines around the world are portraying this election as a choice between a failed president

and a former dictator. And you're the former dictator according to these headlines.

You know, people say and they remember that you expelled 700,000 migrants years ago, thinking that would create jobs, that you have banned political

meetings and free speech, that you've detained thousands of people, secret tribunals, executing people for crimes that were not capital offenses.

Have you changed? Or is this what the Nigerian people have to look forward to?

BUHARI: Well, all those things you mentioned with a degree of accuracy, actually what happened were then under military administration and well,

the ministry, that ministry (INAUDIBLE) under my leadership, we suspended a military then a part of the constitution that we felt would be difficult

for us to operate and as also a consensus.

So I don't think -- I think our being judged harshly as an individual that were to happen, we are a military administration can be extended and a

multiparty democratic system.

AMANPOUR: OK. So now you say you're a democrat. What do you think you can do to combat Boko Haram and to combat the galloping corruption in your

country?

BUHARI: Well, Boko Haram, we know how it started. Certainly the Nigerian military that built a reputation internationally for effectiveness is a

great embarrassment to them and to the country that they haven't been able to secure Nigerian territory over an area of (INAUDIBLE) government out of

774 local governments. I believe this problem will not be too difficult for HEC (ph) government because we know the Nigerian military is confident,

it's accustomed of making sure that the money voted recruitment and training are properly utilized.

AMANPOUR: About corruption, there's so many complaints for many people around your country about the massive corruption they say. Can you face up

against that? Are you committed to rooting out corruption?

BUHARI: We have to because there are serious (INAUDIBLE) of this country that said unless Nigeria accuse corruption and corruption will kill Nigeria

and that is thus illustrated by the another (INAUDIBLE) conducted by the national assembly on (INAUDIBLE) a question of power, electricity power,

and then the corruption in petroleum industry which is a country depends over 90 percent of its external revenue. The national assembly conducted

the hearing here in Abuja and in the six geopolitical zones of the country, take the recommendation to the electorate and it has been there collecting

dust for the last 18 months.

AMANPOUR: All right, General Muhammadu Buhari, opposition candidate in Nigeria, thank you very much for joining us from Abuja tonight.

And a final thought tonight: imagine a world where cartoons are criminal. It is an all-too-familiar picture in 2015. In Malaysia right now, the

artist known as Zunar, one of the country's best-known political cartoonists, faces a charge of sedition. His crime: tweeting his cartoon

criticizing the five-year prison sentence that was slapped on opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim yesterday. Now in court, Ibrahim himself denied the

charge of sodomy, calling it, quote, "a fabrication coming from a political conspiracy to stop my career."

He accused the judges of being partners in crime who chose to remain on the dark side. CNN reached him as he was being hustled from the courthouse to

jail.

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ANWAR IBRAHIM, MALAYSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER: (INAUDIBLE) a price I have to pay. I thank Malaysians and all democrats. I will not be silent. I will

continue to fight for freedom and justice. And I will never surrender.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And amid the local protests an international condemnation over his sentence, Zunar drew up his own outrage against the

judiciary and the prime minister, Najib Razak; now his cartoons have put him on the wrong side of the law. His wife told the AFP Agency that just

like Anwar Ibrahim, Zunar will not bow down to this intimidation, she said. He will continue to criticize even if he remains in jail.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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