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Kurdish Military Forces Repel ISIS Assault; Iraq's Battle to Expel ISIS; Interview with Ahmed Aboutaleb, Mayor of Rotterdam; Imagine a World
Aired February 18, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Hello, everyone. Tonight on the program, Kurdish forces fight back after ISIS launches a fresh offensive in
Northern Iraq.
Is it time for Washington to be giving the Kurds weapons directly? I'll be speaking live to the Iraqi ambassador to the U.S., Lukman Faily.
Also fighting fanaticism on the streets of Europe: my interview with the controversial mayor of Rotterdam.
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HOLMES: And a very good evening, everyone. Welcome to the program. I'm Michael Holmes, in for Christiane this week.
Well, it took hours of intense close combat but Kurdish military forces have repelled ISIS fighters after they launched an assault under the cover
of dark in Northern Iraq. A CNN team recently spent time with the Peshmerga on this very front line near the towns of Gwer and Makhmur. At
one point, the two sides so close during the battle the coalition jets couldn't bomb ISIS positions without risking the lives of Kurds. Though
they've been probing the Kurdish front line for some time now, the scale of this ISIS assault much greater than anything we have seen.
I'll talk with the Iraqi ambassador to Washington in just a moment.
But first, let's go to our Tim Lister, who is in Erbil.
Tim, you've been to that very area.
What do the size of this assault and its ferocity suggest in terms of ISIS tactics?
TIM LISTER, CNN PRODUCER: ISIS tactics, Michael, are to try to probe and attack in a technical fashion all sorts of Kurdish positions along this
massive front that they have to defend, 1,000 kilometers, more than 600 miles. It involves mountains, deserts, plains, every type of topography
you can imagine.
And they're strung out in pretty meager fashion across this long front. So you go to a front and you'll see half a dozen Peshmerga here, another 7-8
there. They've all got pretty ancient weapons. They don't have very much in the way of heavy weapons, certainly not heavy machine guns, certainly no
armor. Very much they depend on sandbags and earth movers.
Why earth movers? Because their greatest fear is ISIS' use of IEDs, Humvees that they have converted into these massive mobile suicide bombs.
So almost every Kurdish front line you go, you see an earth digger because they're digging these huge trenches in front of their front line positions
to prevent those suicide bombs hitting them -- Michael.
HOLMES: And I know that when you're out there, you saw a 1940s era British artillery piece, the other side, as you say, has night vision, high-tech
communications, heavy artillery.
Who -- what are they telling you, the Kurds, about how they're being armed, by whom and frankly why it's not happening quickly enough?
LISTER: Well, they're very frustrated, to be honest. And the line they have is quite a simple one. We can just about hold this line for now. But
if we have still to be doing this later this year, if the Iraqi army is not stood up, motivated, trained and ready to take on its share of the
fighting, we may not be able to continue to do this, especially if we don't get more serious weapons.
We were down on the front line near Kirkuk and they were almost pathetically grateful for a new range of German automatic rifles that they
received. But they're getting rifles from mainly the Europeans, about half a dozen European countries, and they're getting a lot of support equipment,
trucks and so forth.
What they're not getting is what they really need, and that is heavy armor, particularly armor that's capable of resisting these IEDs to which
they lose so many of their fighters. Seventy percent of the more than 1,000 Peshmerga killed so far have been killed by IEDs.
As you said, no night vision; they also want small attack helicopters because this is such a huge front. It's the only way they can deal with a
very mobile enemy -- Michael.
HOLMES: All this talk in the United States, as there has been for some time, about boots on the ground and what those boots are going to be, the
reality is that the Kurds are the only real boots on the ground outside of the Iraqi military.
How successful have they been overall and crucially can they sustain it?
LISTER: Well, we spoke to the Iraqi deputy prime minister the other day. He's a Kurd, Dr. Shawez (ph). And he said Kurdistan is safe. They feel
they've turned the tide; they feel they've established this front line across this huge range which they believe they can hold for now.
However, going forward, if they don't receive those weapons, more heavy weaponry, they could well be in trouble in some of these sectors, where
ISIS is still probing them pretty hard.
So their attitude is we're not getting a bullet from the Iraqi government. We are the main fighting force in this area. We have already retaken 5,000
square miles from ISIS. We are the only group that is around Mosul, keeping Mosul under siege, making life difficult for ISIS. We need more
support. That's their attitude; they are nevertheless aware that there are political considerations for the Americans, who are trying to stand up the
Abadi government in Baghdad and this would be, if they started supplying heavy equipment to the Kurds, another problem for Abadi.
HOLMES: Yes, the concept of the Kurds losing control of their turf doesn't bear thinking about.
Tim Lister, there in Erbil, appreciate it, Tim. Thanks for all of your reporting.
Well, the Iraqi ambassador in Washington is optimistic about the fight against ISIS. In a sense, we are winning, he said in a recent interview.
Lukman Faily joins me now.
Ambassador, why isn't your government getting more resources to the Kurds, who, as we know, are clearly outgunned and at the same time so crucial in
the battle against ISIS?
LUKMAN FAILY, IRAQI AMBASSADOR: Thank you, Michael. As your report has indicated, the fight we have against ISIS is not just on one front. The
Kurdish region is one. We have it in the midland and we have it in the West as well.
We -- the government with its various forces, with its various entities, including the Peshmerga, are working on all fronts. So we need -- we have
limited resources. We need to manage that as we're working with -- jointly with the Kurds and others in management of that issue.
HOLMES: But the reality is it's not getting there quick enough. You just heard; they're woefully outgunned. If they weren't so good at their job
they'd probably be overrun in some places.
Western arms for the Kurds go through Baghdad.
What is your government's attitude to perhaps the West, the United States in particular, directly arming the Kurds?
FAILY: We have been very supportive, appreciative of what our fighters in Kurdistan are doing among other parts of Iraq. We are working with them.
We have a joint command and control. United States and other countries are part of that as well.
As we said, the front is not just in the Kurdish regions. It's an importance and a vital region. We also have other fronts in Diyala,
Saladin and other provinces and even parts -- some nearer to Baghdad as well we had recently.
HOLMES: Understood, but do you have objections to the United States, for example, directly arming the Kurds, flying them straight in there?
FAILY: The Americans have not talked about it. We have not requested it as well. The Kurds are also appreciative of the situation we face in all
of Iraq. There is no time delay in Baghdad in relation to weapons being provided to them. It's just a matter of resources and management. There
is no political agenda here. It's just an operational necessities and --
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: OK. I understand that. But the operational necessity isn't getting the weapons to them. I'm trying to understand --
(CROSSTALK)
FAILY: -- the Kurds.
HOLMES: -- I understand what you're saying about operational realities and the like.
But if the U.S. tomorrow said we're going to fly in C-130s loaded with heavy weaponry they require, would you have an objection to that?
FAILY: Everything, as any government has to have control and to get sight of it and so on so in that sense we're working with them. There's hasn't
been, as I said, there's not an issue of delay in Baghdad, it's an issue of control and an issue of understanding who has what, where do we need it and
as I said, the joint controls are -- command and control are managing that.
HOLMES: You know, I want to move on. We saw the Shiite militia leader, Muqtada al-Sadr stand down some of his brigades this week after allegations
of atrocities against Sunnis by militia and specifically the issue of the assassination of a senior Sunni tribal chief.
What is the Iraqi government's control over these militias?
Clearly they are important in the fight against ISIS. But such atrocities do nothing to bring Sunnis back into the fold and encourage them to rise
against ISIS.
FAILY: The fight against ISIS has consisted of many walks of life of Iraqis, whether they are political entities or just ordinary people want to
fight, to defend their honor and their country. So everybody is chipping in there. We need to make sure that no atrocities are committed, the prime
minister has been very fair-minded (ph) and zero tolerance toward that. We are also aware that the situation on the ground is dynamic and we need to
react to that.
The front against ISIS is not just one front. What you saw in the report was just 1,000 kilometer at the Kurdish front. We have it on other
provinces as well. We need to make sure that the focus is eradicating ISIS but at the same time make sure that there are no human rights abuses.
HOLMES: What is the chain of command when it comes to these militias?
You know the reports of atrocities against Sunnis and the damage that does to the whole notion of inclusiveness under the government of Mr. al-Abadi.
What is the chain of command?
Who's in control of these --
(CROSSTALK)
FAILY: The prime minister is the chief, is in charge of the whole army and in a way we also have in charge of mobilization forces. They report to the
national security adviser. There are committees set up at the various -- sometimes they are localities, sometimes central. The ministry of defense
has a part of it. The police have a part of it. The Peshmerga forces have part.
So it's not what you might call a unified structure. It's more to do with the necessities on the ground and reflecting that.
HOLMES: Ambassador, the capture of the town of al-Baghdadi (ph) there, that we saw recently, just how does that happen, literally a few miles from
the Ayn al-Asad base, where U.S. forces are also based, and what does that say about the claim of the prime minister that ISIS is losing ground in
Iraq? In this case, it's gaining ground right on the doorstep of this important base.
FAILY: It's more like hit-and-run aspect rather than gaining ground and the government is focused on that with the allies. We need air support.
We have been asking for it from day one. We have said that the Iraqis don't have enough ammunition. We need better eyes on the skies. We also
need sophisticated and to do with the booby traps you talked about earlier in your report.
We need more sophisticated weapons. There's a sense of urgency in Iraq in dealing with this. Our brothers in Kurdistan and others all are
appreciative of that. We need to work together, allies have to be there faster and more agile. It's an issue of existence for Iraq. And I think
it's an issue of human rights abuses being committed by ISIS, by an extra day.
HOLMES: What is your timing when it comes to getting back Mosul?
FAILY: We are confident that this year will be the key year in which ISIS will be kicked out of Mosul. However, we -- to do that, we need provisions
in all kind of sort of walk of life we talked about, whether it's intelligence, ammunition, training and so on. The pace of development is
important. The support we get will help us in accelerating that pace.
HOLMES: What more can the West do, apart from airstrikes and advisers?
FAILY: Well, the sophisticated watches in dealing with the intelligence sharing and cooperation on the ground, the actual type of weapon, the size
of the weapons, the scale of it, the technology, training, there is a lot the West can do -- and has been doing. We're not -- I'm not. We're saying
we thank you.
But we need to more. The ISIS should no longer -- they no longer have the initiative, but they should more or less be defending and shrinking their
territory rather than thinking that they have the ability to form an attack, as we have just seen over the last 48 hours.
HOLMES: OK. Well, hopefully Kurds up in the north get some of that weaponry you're talking about.
Ambassador, I want to thank you, Lukman Faily, thanks so much.
FAILY: Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.
HOLMES: Well, Iraq making those gains in the battle against ISIS as is being claimed. But Afghanistan, let's talk about that: a bloody new
chapter for that country. 2014, the most lethal year for Afghan civilians. That's according to the United Nations since it began recording deaths back
in 2009. More than 3.5 thousand were killed -- civilians, children, the hardest-hit. So far almost 18,000 civilians have died since fighting
began.
After a break, I'm going to speak with the Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam. Fighting extremism and fostering tolerance in Western Europe --
after this.
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HOLMES: Welcome back to the program. I'm Michael Holmes, sitting in for Christiane this week.
Well, the fight against ISIS is not only a physical war and it is not only taking place on the front lines of Syria and Iraq. It is also very much in
the West. A war of ideology on the streets of sedate European cities like Rotterdam in the Netherlands. In the wake of the attack on "Charlie Hebdo"
in Paris, the mayor of Rotterdam made headlines around the world when he said this:
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AHMED ABOUTALEB, MAYOR OF ROTTERDAM (from captions): All the Muslims, all those well-intentioned Muslims, who may be looked at with suspicion, we
want to keep all those people together in what I call the "We Society." And if you don't like it here because you don't like the humorists who make
a little newspaper, yes, if I can say it like this, get (INAUDIBLE).
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HOLMES: Very direct.
Ahmed Aboutaleb is not part of the Far Right that has taken hold in many parts of Europe. He is a Muslim himself, born in Morocco. He's in
Washington this week for a White House summit on combating extremism. I spoke to him earlier and asked him what his experience and his city have to
teach the world.
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HOLMES: Mr. Mayor, your speech was a powerful one, coming from a Moroccan immigrant in particular and a practicing Muslim.
How was it received in Rotterdam and also the Netherlands?
ABOUTALEB: Well, my speech after the attack of Paris has been well received by, really I think, 160 million people in the Netherlands.
I received really thousands of emails from all over the world from people supporting the speech and the content of it.
HOLMES: It's fine to say let's share these values. It's much harder, isn't it, to impose them on others? I mean, even things like gay marriage,
which, of course, is legal in the Netherlands, would not be acceptable to most Muslims traditionally.
What do you say to those who say, well, you can't put all of the Netherlands' liberal traditions onto immigrants?
ABOUTALEB: You know, the Dutch constitution but also the Dutch society is constructed in very, very interesting basic value and that is tolerance and
acceptance. So the moment you come to the Netherlands, wherever from all over the world and you get a citizenship then you have to at least
underline and embrace the constitution and the values of the country.
We are a diverse country; my city is 154 nationalities. And that means that the rule of law is above everyone. Whatever your conviction is,
whatever your religion is, whatever your sexual behavior, the acceptance and tolerance is really a very important thing.
HOLMES: If you don't like it here, leave, which was the real line that stuck out, of course. It resonates with many people. But could it be seen
as a little superficial and unrealistic?
If you don't like it, just go.
ABOUTALEB: Well, what I say to people is there are two things: when you become a member of our society and I said when I give passport to new
citizens, that is not only a travel document. That is an identity. Then we request you and there is also a duty upon you to accept society as a
whole.
And there are -- there is also a lot of variety in it.
But if you reject the society, you don't want to be member of what I call the we community and you reject the constitution and you reject the quality
between people and you reject the freedoms, then it's up to you to examine whether you want to be with us.
There is also another choice and that is not to be with us and to leave -- to leave our society. You are not forced to be with us. It's a choice.
And that's what I said to people. I'm not forcing anyone to get out of the we society. It's a free choice. Be with us; work with us together to
construct a we society.
But if you want to send out of the we community, you threaten us, you go to Yemen to learn how to use a Kalashnikov and to come back to citizen
society, well, you are not part of my we society; you'd better leave.
HOLMES: I understand, of course, why your message stands out so much is because you are Muslim. You are Moroccan. You didn't even go to the
Netherlands until you were 15.
How did your family integrate, move to accept that liberal nature of life in the Netherlands?
ABOUTALEB: Mr. Holmes, I'm one of the people who knows how it is to live in poverty. I spent 15 years in Morocco of my life on one meal a day,
walking without shoes. Go to the Netherlands without a coat to protect myself. So I know how it is to be a product of poverty.
And I cannot accept that poverty leads to terrorism. Poverty must lead to a seek to knowledge, to sciences, to be better, to climb on the social
ladder.
So I know how it is. It's about investing in yourself, first of all, and by doing that, you invest in society. And that's the message I try to give
to these people, yes, indeed. I'm not only a mayor of a city, but I'm also Muslim and that gives me maybe the additional authority to say these things
that maybe other colleagues of mine in Europe and maybe in the U.S. are not maybe authorized to say.
HOLMES: Is there room for maintaining different cultures in your mind, having parallel Muslim and traditional Dutch values?
Or is it all or nothing?
ABOUTALEB: No, there is a lot of space to combine a lot of things. My city comprises 154 nationalities. We have all religions in the
Netherlands, in my city, too. There are mosques and synagogues and churches from all denominations. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's even OK if you have radical opinions as long as you act within the borders of the law, there is nothing wrong with that.
You may have also the reason to believe that you have the truth of the all too -- the ultimate truth in religion between your ears, nothing wrong with
that. But as long as you go to the outside world, then there is the rule of law and then you may accept the constitution and the rule of law.
And those things, if you bring that together, there must be a balance that is possible. And my case, it shows that it is possible.
HOLMES: And you do a lot of outreach in Rotterdam and the Netherlands in general. But I wanted to finish by asking you this very quickly. It seems
like there are surprisingly few examples of people like you, immigrants in positions of power in Europe. You know, considering their sizable
population, I'm thinking of places like the United States, where there are many immigrants in positions of power.
Why do you think that is?
ABOUTALEB: Well, I would like first of all to congratulate the U.S. government in bringing us together, those days in Washington, to think and
rethink what is going on in the world and how to deal with that. And indeed, the U.S. has a big advantage to have a lot of scholars and public
leaders within a lot of religious communities, but also public officials. We don't have that.
But the migration to the Netherlands is a very young migration of 40 years. I'm so far the only mayor with a Muslim background in Europe. So I have a
lot of work to do, also to have a representation from all minorities in European government. So we have a -- miles to go and we just have to leave
this behind us.
HOLMES: The mayor of Rotterdam, Ahmed Aboutaleb, thanks to you.
ABOUTALEB: Thank you for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: And a fascinating perspective.
Well, trying to forge a future without extremism in Washington -- after a break, China moves forward to new beginnings with a little confusion.
Imagine a world where nobody knows quite what year it is. It's after this.
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HOLMES: Welcome back. Finally tonight, imagine a world where you welcome in the New Year only to be unsure of exactly what that year is. As China
celebrates a new year of the zodiac, people across the country and the world are wondering whether it is the Year of the Sheep or the Goat or the
Ram, the confusion coming from the Mandarin symbol yang, which actually encompasses all three creatures as horned animals, sheep or goat. It is a
fitting animal analogy for China right now as millions are herded through the country's roads and railway stations and airports. The Lunar New Year
sees billions of journeys being made to catch China's biggest holiday in the world's largest human migration.
Even though this year is seen as a bit of black sheep in some ways, classic sheep characteristics of naivete and weakness caused birth rates to drop as
the superstitious parents wait the year out before procreating. But the sheep does have a vocal defender in the Hong Kong chief executive, CY
Leung, who says protesters should act more like that easily-led animal, unnerving activists who often describe Leung as "the wolf," the sheep's
natural predator.
But hopefully the new year will bring the positive virtues of its kindhearted namesake, whatever horned animal it may actually be.
I'm a Rat, myself.
That's the program for tonight. I'm Michael Holmes. Thanks for your company. Remember you can always see the whole show online at
amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter, @HolmesCNN. Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow. Goodbye for now from Atlanta.
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