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Amanpour
Ukrainian Pilot Nears Death in Russian Jail; Pressure Mounts to Find Nemtsov Killer; Imagine a World
Aired March 02, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: has the opposition in Russia been killed off along with murdered activist Boris
Nemtsov? We ask his successor and also an ally of President Putin.
But first: will another high-profile death land at the Kremlin's doorstep? The Ukrainian pilot who's galvanized a nation by resisting time
in a Russian jail. She's on day 80 of her hunger strike. Her lawyer tells me time is running out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK FEYGIN, LAWYER FOR NADIYA SAVCHENKO (through translator): She is not in the best condition; 80 days of hunger strike and she is close to the
condition where we won't be able to help her anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
As the assassination of Russia's leading opposition activist, Boris Nemtsov, sinks in at home and across the world, the controversial case of
Nadiya Savchenko is nearing a fatal conclusion in a Russian jail that is sure to spark more outrage and condemnation of the Kremlin.
Savchenko is a Ukrainian military pilot. She's seen here last month. But now she's on day 80 of a total hunger strike. She's been held for
eight months, accused by Russia of being responsible for the deaths of two Russian journalists in Eastern Ukraine.
But President Petro Poroshenko today awarded her the country's highest honor, Hero of Ukraine. His government has accused Russia of kidnapping
her.
So can the Kremlin afford to let her die? Tonight her lawyer tells me her time is running out. But first, we get more on the extraordinary story
of Nadiya Savchenko, caught between the fierce nationalism of two neighbors, from our Diana Magnay in Kiev.
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DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The songs of the Ukrainian devout in a Kiev cathedral, mothers praying for children caught
between the two sides. Maria Savchenko's daughter, Nadiya, is on hunger strike in a Russian jail. She's very weak after 80 days without food. She
needs her mother's prayers.
MARIA SAVCHENKO, NADIYA'S MOTHER (through translator): I told her enough. I think people are supportive. I know as a nation born here, we
didn't have (INAUDIBLE). And because I'm 77 years old, I'm asking you to stop the hunger strike because we have a big struggle ahead of us.
MAGNAY (voice-over): But Savchenko isn't the type to stop. She was the only female soldier to serve with Ukrainian peacekeepers in Iraq. When
her unit wasn't assigned to the front lines in the east of Ukraine, she took time off to go as a volunteer, joining forces with her comrades from
the Maidan protests, to form one of Ukraine's notorious volunteer battalions, Azov. Her sister, Vera, shares her fighting spirit.
VERA SAVCHENKO, NADIYA'S SISTER (through translator): Why do we spend so much energy trying to persuade Nadiya to stop her hunger strike when we
should instead be persuading the Kremlin to release innocent people?
MAGNAY (voice-over): Russia has kept Nadiya in pretrial detention for eight months now, ever since she went missing shortly after this video was
posted on social media last June. It shows Savchenko being interrogated by pro-Russian rebels, cuffed to the railings. But she is unflinching.
"Did you come out here for the money?" she's asked.
"No. I swore an oath to the Ukrainian people to protect them and this country's territorial integrity."
"Against who?"
"Against Russia," she says.
Russia accuses her of being behind the killings of two Russian journalists hit by mortar fire at a checkpoint in Eastern Ukraine. They
say she then crossed into Russia and sought asylum, which is when they detained her. Kiev says she was kidnapped from Ukrainian territory.
In a letter from jail, Savchenko denies involvement in the journalists' deaths, saying they came under friendly fire. And speaking to
reporters from jail last month, she tells of the support she's had from within Russia itself.
"I've very rarely spoken to Russian people before," she says. "But now I've received letters from you. I understand you have your own
reasoning. You understand and feel what's right and wrong. You don't think we're your enemies and we don't think you are ours."
But she's clearly an enemy to some. And on a day when Ukrainians wept for the murdered Kremlin (INAUDIBLE), Boris Nemtsov, they prayed for the
release of their captured pilot.
Savchenko has said that she will continue her hunger strike until she's released back to Ukraine or she will die in a Russian jail. She has
become something of a national hero in this country, a symbol of Russia's supposed oppression of the Ukrainian people -- Diana Magnay, CNN, Kiev.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now earlier Savchenko's lawyer joined me from Moscow, saying that she's determined not to surrender and she wants to await her
trial out of jail.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mark Feygin, welcome to the program.
Mr. Feygin, when did you see your client and what state is she in now?
FEYGIN (through translator): I saw her just now. She is not in the best condition; 80 days of hunger strike and she is close to the condition
where we won't be able to help her anymore.
She's lying down most of the time, despite this is a hospital they inject her some medication. She uses medication in liquid form. Her
internal organs are sore at the moment.
She -- they have started some morphological changes in her body, irreversible changes, to do with the kidneys, stomach and other organs.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Feygin, it sounds like she's close to death. You're describing a process of general shutdown of vital organs.
Do you believe that she will survive until her May trial?
FEYGIN (through translator): No, no way she can survive until the trial in May under these conditions of the hunger strike, under no
conditions is this possible. It is not my assessment; this is the assessment of the doctors.
Eighty days is too long period if you take into account she hasn't been eating any food, just drinking water and occasionally some tea with
zero calories.
And all the rest is just medication. And they cannot save her from death. This is a realistic -- this is not a pessimistic assessment, it is
realistic.
AMANPOUR: When her family tells her to stop her hunger strike, when you suggest that she stops her hunger strike, can she even understand you
anymore?
FEYGIN (through translator): She replies to everyone in the same way as me, I will not -- I haven't listened to my own mother when she asks me
to stop. So why would your opinion or any other politician from Ukraine more valuable than my mother? Maybe she thinks this is the only way to
fight against the system, a system of Putin.
AMANPOUR: What exactly does she want?
FEYGIN (through translator): At the moment, her demand is simple: she considers that she's innocent, that she has been for eight months in
prison unlawfully. She wants to leave prison to -- and to have any other form of pretrial detention. But not -- but not the prison. This is what
she's insisting on.
AMANPOUR: You're her lawyer; do you believe the Russian state will allow that, the judiciary will allow it?
And do you believe that Putin can afford to see her die in prison, especially after the killing of Nemtsov?
FEYGIN (through translator): There is no judicial system, no independent court. It is not independent from the authorities. It takes
decision under the pressure of the Kremlin, so you need to convince Kremlin to make a decision to free Savchenko. Whether Putin will take this
decision or not will depend on the level of Western pressure on him and no other conditions of her freeing, liberation, they don't exist.
AMANPOUR: Mark Feygin, we'll continue to watch and follow this case. Thank you for joining me tonight.
FEYGIN (through translator): Thank you, too.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So as an ever weaker Nadiya Savchenko fights for her freedom and her life, we turn next to Russian politics. In the wake of
Boris Nemtsov's brazen assassination, we ask can there ever be an opposition under President Putin?
We'll hear from both sides after this.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now mourners in Moscow today continue to place flowers at a makeshift memorial within sight of the Kremlin. That's where one of President
Vladimir Putin's most outspoken critics was shot to death on Friday night.
He had been due to lead an opposition march in Moscow on Sunday. Instead, it turned into a rally to remember Boris Nemtsov's life and what
he stood for. All along, Nemtsov knew that he was a target. Indeed, he told a newspaper just last month that his own mother pleaded with him to
stop railing against Putin lest he be killed.
So who did it? And will we ever know?
President Putin has vowed to find the killers and bring them to justice. But not all are convinced. Tonight, two sharply different views,
a Putin ally and former MP, Sergei Markov, and a former prime minister, Mikhail Kasyanov, who founded the People's Freedom Party with Nemtsov, and
he led Sunday's rally in his place.
First, we turn to Mr. Kasyanov.
Thank you for joining us.
Let me ask you first and foremost do you fear for your own life because you have now de facto been thrust to the forefront of whatever
opposition movement remains in Russia?
Are you afraid?
MIKHAIL KASYANOV, FORMER PM, RUSSIA: Well, everybody's afraid in the current Russia and I think this is a natural thing for human beings just to
be afraid, especially in such an environment. But we're afraid but we continue our fight and therefore just we voted yes on the matter Friday and
just in the memory of Mr. Nemtsov, my friend, Boris, and we continue consolidation of democratic opposition to fight for those ideas we had
together with Boris.
AMANPOUR: Do you think we will know who killed him?
And what do you make of President Putin immediately condemning it and saying that he was taking supervision of this case and vowing to find the
perpetrators?
KASYANOV: I think this -- demonstrators know there was some kind of shock for Mr. Putin, too. And in fact, just this environment, Mr. Putin
created, environment of hostile environment and intolerance, I think just for the last two years created such atmosphere, negative atmosphere in a
society in the country, of half of society fights with the other fire -- with the other half of society. This absolutely dangerous situation. And
that environment move these people to kill Boris because even on the meeting of supporters of Mr. Putin's supporters, they simply just saying we
shoot, eliminate betrayers.
And we would named our party and Boris Nemtsov and all of us were named as fifth column and national betrayers.
And so these guys just follow this encouragement and execute us.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Nemtsov -- sorry. Mr. Kasyanov, you said that you think President Putin himself might have been shocked by this murder.
Do you think, though, that the president will allow any greater space for an opposition movement?
Mr. Nemtsov himself said just recently in an interview with the "FT" four days before he died, "We need help patience," he said.
"I believe we'll have to struggle with Putin for a long time. It'll take a long time and a long battle. We're talking about 2024."
Do you agree that that is how long you'll have to wait for any possible opposition?
KASYANOV: No. That is a different -- that's the difference between our two views. I think just we much closer to changes. Those inevitable
changes. I think just we were already just in a way to impress Mr. Putin and during such an environment to put the president's regime, because of
simple reason. Now just the economy close cease to collapse. And that's happening because of all this strong policy for the last decade.
And just all these problems were expedited by low oil prices and Western sanctions. That's external feature.
But internal people cannot keep patience just without freedom and just very soon it'll collapse. We'll lose everything. But poor people, just
they'll feel already in the upcoming for just problems in their each family.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Kasyanov, obviously President Putin still enjoys very high poll ratings and the opposition is quite sort of siloed. It's not a
massive nationwide opposition.
But the question I wanted to ask you is what was Mr. Nemtsov going to deliver in terms of evidence? He said he had evidence about Russian
involvement in the Ukrainian war.
KASYANOV: The report Mr. Nemtsov, Boris Nemtsov wanted to prepare just we discussed with him just five days ago was -- and targeted for
Russian people, just especially for Russian people, because just Russian people cannot understand the logic. They cannot understand the motivation
of the regime and exact actions they undertaking because just under propaganda, they don't have just exact access to truth. At least half of
population. But the issue is in all reports --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: OK.
KASYANOV: -- before. The issue is just to put everything just what's already available in the --
AMANPOUR: I see.
KASYANOV: -- appropriate order, in the logic. We shall describe already existing facts and Putin illogic in with the confusion. That is
the way, not a --
AMANPOUR: All right.
KASYANOV: -- but information already available.
AMANPOUR: OK. Mikhail Kasyanov, thank you very much indeed for joining me from Moscow.
And now we turn to Sergei Markov. He is a former MP for President Putin's United Russia Party.
Now, Mr. Markov, what do you make of what happened on Friday night?
Who do you think is responsible for the death of this key opposition figure, Boris Nemtsov?
SERGEI MARKOV, FORMER UNITED RUSSIA MP: I think those who killed Boris Nemtsov, who'd been my friend during 20 years and he was teach
(INAUDIBLE). And of course it's really a pity as he have been killed. Those who killed Boris Nemtsov, they want justibilization (ph) of Russia.
For them (INAUDIBLE), it's so-called sacrifying (ph) to become (INAUDIBLE) of anti-Putin revolution in Russia.
Now a lot of evidence show that this assassination have been organized by security in Kiev, it's all dreadful to let Kiev regime, who killed Boris
Nemtsov to encourage anti-Putin revolution in Russia --
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AMANPOUR: Mr. Markov, do you actually have evidence? Because obviously people have been saying things like that, that it's the
opposition himself -- themselves. But it does sound like a conspiracy theory, that.
MARKOV: There are a lot of (INAUDIBLE) Boris Nemtsov, that moment exactly we'd been with Ukrainian citizen woman and she had been dressed in
white. And she is in black, killer, kill only Boris Nemtsov. But you know, usually killer kills also those who nearby. Also now is became clear
that these Ukrainian (INAUDIBLE) had been your friend of the neo-Nazi officer who is now member Ukrainian parliament. It's Mr. Birioza (ph),
head of the neapre (ph) one neo-Nazis battalion, which is a very important role in Ukrainian war against anti-fascist Donbas (ph).
AMANPOUR: Mr. Markov, what do you make? You call Mr. Nemtsov your friend of 20 years.
What do you make of him describing Russia today just a few days before he was killed, again, to the "Financial Times," he said, you know, after
2012, when President Putin was elected again, "We live in a different country, a country of war, of humiliated, hypnotized people, mass hysteria
about annexation of Crimea, aggressive propaganda that the West is the enemy and Ukrainians are fascists, et cetera."
Surely you can see this change in your own country right now.
MARKOV: Country didn't change. But environment changed dramatically. Now we see hybrid war, which party of war from Washington have against
Russia for all destroying of democratic elected and very popular president of Russia, Vladimir Putin.
Ukrainians not fascists. But in the fascist junta (ph) with neo-Nazis implores (ph) to the Ukrainian people. Now the solution of Ukrainian
crisis is democracy offer to Ukraine. Give freedom and the right to Ukrainian people, federalism, federalism is solution for Ukrainian --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: OK.
MARKOV: -- crisis. And I ask why American politicians against federalism to Ukraine?
AMANPOUR: Yes. Can I just bring it back to politics in Russia? And you mentioned sort of a fascist junta. But you know very well that any
sort of far right, neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine barely got even 1 percent of the vote in the last election. But I want to ask you about your own
country.
You heard former Prime Minister Kasyanov saying that even President Putin must have been shocked by Nemtsov's death.
Do you think that this shock will enable some kind of space for a legitimate opposition for people to challenge the president legitimately
and through politics?
It hasn't been allowed up until now.
MARKOV: It's propaganda. Your anti-Russian propaganda that in Russia there are no space for opposition. In Russia, three opposition
parties and a lot of opposition with us. And obviously on Russian in Russian media, you know, leading Russian newspapers, is controlled by
Russian opposition. I'm taking part in the Russian TV show discussion about Ukraine and another every day. And every day, we have representative
of Kiev be on Russian TV, who protected this -- defended this Kiev policy.
But no one, politician or public figure or author (ph) can go to the Kiev TV. It's because in Ukraine, there are police state which terrorize
Ukrainian people and in Russia, we have freedom of opposition. Maybe it's not enough opposition. But --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: All right, Mr. Markov.
MARKOV: -- opposition not happy about the conditions.
AMANPOUR: All right, Mr. Markov. That's the view from the Kremlin. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. We appreciate you being here.
And after a break, imagine the courage it takes to struggle for human rights, political freedom and rule of law. The honor roll of defiance in
Russia, even in the face of death -- when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where death may silence you but could amplify the volume of your cause. The supporters of
Boris Nemtsov, the outspoken Kremlin critic who was brutally assassinated within sight of the palace walls on Friday night, are hoping that his death
can be the foundation upon which to raise a legitimate opposition to counter the political heavyweight of President Putin.
In his last interview on Russian radio just hours before he was gunned down, Nemtsov said why he wanted people to take part in the Sunday rally
that he was supposed to lead.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BORIS NEMTSOV, PUTIN OPPOSITION LEADER (from captions): The main question people ask us: "You are inviting us to join the march. If we
come, what will change?
Answer: "If a lot of people come, something will change. That much can turn the situation towards (INAUDIBLE). That much can (INAUDIBLE)
Kremlin gradually, not with the help of just a simple march, we can change the political course."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Boris Nemtsov is the latest to pay for wanting freedom with his life. And tonight, we leave you with the faces of the activists who
went before.
Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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END
