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Amanpour
UNESCO Chief Decries Cultural Cleansing; Joking about the Horrific; Imagine a World
Aired March 09, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight: ISIS deliberately destroying Iraq's history, one ancient monument at a time. The director-general of
UNESCO tells me the country's culture must be protected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRINA BOKOVA, DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF UNESCO: . I thought that this is totally unacceptable nowadays, the 21st century, to see such destruction of
such heritage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus Egypt's most famous TV satirist tells me he doesn't think he'll be back on the air anytime soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASSEM YOUSSEF, EGYPTIAN SATIRIST: What -- who said that my country's authoritarian?
Come on. I mean, don't put like words in my mouth.
We are -- it's a very, very good, democratic country, please.
Please, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Iraq is urging the U.S. and its allies to increase airstrikes to protect some of the world's greatest and oldest treasures from ISIS. It
comes amidst a frenzy of destruction by the extremists who even today raise the remains of the ancient Assyrian capital of Khorsabad.
Over the weekend they tore down a 2,000-year-old desert fortress at Hatra in Northern Iraq. The UNESCO World Heritage site was immaculately
preserved and it had survived two Roman invasions.
Two days before that, ISIS bulldozed the site of the ancient city of Nimrud. Here's what that site looked like in 2001.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): And this video showing ISIS militants obliterating stone sculptures and other centuries' old artifacts in the
Mosul Museum. They say they're just being true Muslims and smashing idols.
But the U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon calls this a war crime and earlier I spoke to Irina Bokova, the director-general of UNESCO, who's
described the attacks as an appalling strategy of cultural cleansing by ISIS. Here's what she told me from the United Nations in New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Irina Bokova, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me.
BOKOVA: Thank you for inviting me.
AMANPOUR: How did you feel when you saw all these videos that have been coming out over the last few days and weeks of this destruction?
BOKOVA: You know, it's appalling. I was angry. I was frustrated and I thought that this is totally unacceptable nowadays, the 21st century, to
see such a destruction of heritage.
And also I felt a lot of responsibility being the director-general of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization and
also because we do care a about heritage. We have the World Heritage Convention. But we do care also about cultural diversity.
And when I saw this -- yes?
AMANPOUR: We're showing the video, really appalling video, of what took place in the Mosul Museum.
And we have a map here. I just want to show our viewers where the actual attacks are happening. There's the Mosul Museum; there's the town
of Nimrud, the ancient town of Nimrud. And then there's the UNESCO site of Hatra.
So all of this in this area around Northern Iraq.
What can be done now that this has happened?
BOKOVA: I think it's very much becoming a security issue because it is part of the strategy of the terrorists to intimidate. It goes, I would
say, along with the persecution of minorities, of attacking people, of all these atrocities, of journalists.
So this is a strategy of terror. And this is also a strategy of creating a tabula rasa, of no memory exists, as if no culture, no
civilization existed. I think this is totally unacceptable for us.
So one side, of course, the decision, the resolution of the Security Council was extremely important because, for the first time, there were
three elements for there. On one side, it was the rejection, the condemnation of the destruction of heritage; on the other side the need to
protect minorities and this cultural diversity.
And the third, which is probably the more hidden, dark side of this tragedy, this is the illicit trafficking of some of these objects of art
and consequently financing of terrorism.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about how much damage has been done.
Are you able to tell us -- do you have people on the ground?
What is the state of the Mosul Museum, of Nimrud itself, of Hatra?
BOKOVA: Well, we do not have people on the ground, although UNESCO has an office in Baghdad and we're in constant contact with the minister of
antiquities.
But at the same time, of course, I have to admit that it is very difficult to assess all the damage being done.
We know that most of the damage status in the Museum of Mosul were authentic. There were also some replicas there. It is in the message, the
message is the video. Some were wrapped up because the Museum of Mosul was just being renovated when it was taken over by the extremists.
AMANPOUR: Obviously over the weekend there's been a lot of traction on this idea that, in many of these places, most of them were replicas.
Is that true, that most of them were plaster replicas?
BOKOVA: I wouldn't say that most of them. I said some of them were replicas.
But if we come also to the destruction and the bulldozing of Nimrud and Hatra, there you have a real authentic archeological site with a huge
value for humanity. In fact, Nimrud was among the first capitals of the Assyrian empire with the famous, beautiful lamassu statues, which were
standing at the gates of the town; the same also you can meet in Hatra.
And there, unfortunately, the damage, these are all authentic.
AMANPOUR: Is it irreparable?
Because we go back to the Bamiyan Buddhas; we have seen this kind of looting, pillaging and destruction throughout the ages.
Have the Bamiyan Buddhas, which the Taliban blew up in 2001, have they been rebuilt?
Can this stuff be rebuilt?
BOKOVA: Well, Christiane, you know, this is an ongoing debate that we have also among member states, governments, also the expert community.
There are different views on that.
And we know that in some cases some of the objects cultural have been repaired.
We know that we are currently even now repairing the mausoleums in Mali and Timbuktu.
But I would say that in some of the cases, like the Bamiyan Buddha, it will be a huge investment. It will be also very difficult to rebuild
precisely. And a lot of people are at UNESCO, so we had had a number of discussions.
The -- I would say -- predominant majority of the views is that we invest in stabilizing what is -- what has stayed after the bombing because
we know that still there are damages that have to be repaired; otherwise they will, I would say, fall apart still further on.
AMANPOUR: A controversial issue, as you know, is to have cultural heritage in museums outside that particular country.
But doesn't this kind of wholesale assault in these places at war prove that actually, if things are in these great museums, they have a
bigger chance of surviving?
BOKOVA: Well, you know, I do believe that we have to focus more on preventing of this damage. I think world heritage and everything that is
in different countries belongs to the countries themselves. And we are trying to create more knowledge about the local communities to make the
feeling of ownership of these sites, to make them feel pride also in relating to that.
And I think we should need to appeal more to the young people because these are countries, diverse countries, with the extraordinary cultural
diversity. We have in Iraq Shabaks, Yazidis; Turkmens, one of the first Christians; you go to Syria to Maaloula, you can still listen to Aramaic
language. This is the cradle of human civilization.
And we have to keep this diversity and this heritage there.
AMANPOUR: Irina Bokova, director-general of UNESCO, thanks so much for joining me tonight.
BOKOVA: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now ISIS has also threatened to conquer Rome, an unlikely prospect, but some of Rome's ancient culture is under threat from modern-
day tourist hordes.
Two women from California could face a judge after carving their initials into the ancient Colosseum and then taking selfies of themselves
with their handiwork.
Now culture comes in many forms, of course; over in the ancient Biblical land of Egypt the hammer is coming down on comedy.
My next guest, Bassem Youssef, has left his show for (INAUDIBLE) teaching about satire and poking fun at institutions, "Tickling Giants,"
the creator of Egypt's "Daily Show" -- after this.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
He spoke truth to power like Egyptians had never seen before and made them laugh along the way.
Bassem Youssef, dubbed Egypt's Jon Stewart, left no one unscathed with his biting satire during the country's turbulent Arab Spring uprising. But
these confusing political times have come back to bite Bassem. His show has shut down due to what he calls, quote, "insurmountable pressure."
Now between lectures at Harvard, I caught up to him a few days ago. And he told me satire didn't start with him and it certainly won't end with
this show.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Bassem Youssef, welcome back to the program. Great to see you.
YOUSSEF: Lovely to be with you again, Christiane. I really miss you. I'm -- really lovely to see you again.
AMANPOUR: So I want to ask you why you had to quit show business and what are you teaching your students at Harvard.
YOUSSEF: Well, you know, sometimes circumstances are not the best for you to continue a political satire show. Sometimes jokes kind of are
annoying.
I'm not teaching. I'm leading study groups because Harvard professors are very touchy when resident fellows come in and say they teach. So I'm
leading study groups and my topic is about political satire and humor and how they interact with political, social and even religious taboos.
AMANPOUR: I mean clearly in countries such as your own, Bassem, there seems to be no room for satire at all.
YOUSSEF: Well, there is room for satire and comedy as long as it's acceptable by the people controlling the atmosphere. So maybe I -- maybe I
was too rogue. So that's why we stopped.
AMANPOUR: You know, but you were an equal opportunity offender. I mean, and let's remind our viewers that you went from being a heart surgeon
to the most popular television host right after the Arab Spring, right around the time it was happening in your country.
And you basically offended the Mubaraks, the Morsis and you probably would have done with the Sisis.
I want to play a little bit of a documentary that is being done about your program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Egypt's prosecutor general has issued a warrant for Youssef's arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Suspension of the popular and controversial program was announced just minutes before it was due to go on
the air.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): (Speaking foreign language).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): You're going to penalize people for saying jokes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Once you go after a joke, that's a joke in itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUSSEF: The director of the documentary is a senior producer with Jon Stewart. She's been following me for the past 2.5 years. It basically
documents my story and not just my story but basically the atmosphere that we were living in in the past 2.5 years. It's talking about political
satire, humor; how can people be all for a certain program or a joke, but when the joke turns on them, they kind of like turn on you.
And so maybe we were an equal opportunity satirist, but they were not equal opportunity audience.
AMANPOUR: Well, how important is it to be able to have space for satire?
Particularly in authoritarian parts of the world such as your own?
YOUSSEF: What -- who said that my country's authoritarian?
Come on. I mean, don't put like words in my mouth.
We are -- it's a very, very good, democratic country, please.
Please.
Everything is good. I mean, the -- everybody can say whatever they want.
What are you talking about? I mean, did I miss anything?
It's great. It's amazing.
AMANPOUR: So how important is it to be able to actually have a program such as your own?
YOUSSEF: You know, like I think you really can't take satire out. I mean, satire didn't begin or end with my program. It is a part of people's
culture, a part of people's thoughts.
So if one program is off, there are people who will find other ways.
AMANPOUR: Do you believe there are limits to satire and limits to how much you can or will offend people?
I obviously refer to the "Charlie Hebdo" cartoons and the terrible price that 12 of their satirists paid.
YOUSSEF: Well, personally I don't think that you should make fun of other people's beliefs or other people's religions. At the end of the day,
you cannot really control the world or the Internet. The -- people will continue to offend. The way that you face these offenses is not through
killing or not through burning flags or putting embassies under siege. The way is to have a social conversation, make this deemed uncool.
I mean, I'm going to give you an example. It might not be relevant but 50 years ago, cigarettes were cool. Fifty years later, cigarettes are
not cool.
It has to be through a very extended social conversation, not through violence because basically the people who did what they did in "Charlie
Hebdo," the people who killed them and committed the murders, they offended our religion more than their cartoons did.
AMANPOUR: I want to play you a clip of "Saturday Night Live," a recent sketch about ISIS. And basically it's a father who's dropping off
his young daughter at the airport and giving her some walk-around money and saying be careful.
Let me play it and I want to ask your reaction afterwards.
(VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
AMANPOUR: So, Bassem, really, it's very funny. But on the other hand, let's face it, these are people who have slit the throats of our
colleagues, who have enslaved women. I want to ask you a serious question.
What is it about the West which can tolerate that kind of joke even against the most inhuman and abominable attacks that that group has
perpetrated on us versus your part of the world, which cannot tolerate a cartoon and some people --
(CROSSTALK)
YOUSSEF: -- because if you come to my part of the world, YouTube is infested with videos making fun of ISIS. We're basically making fun of
their own anthem. We're putting their songs where they play while killing people. We're putting these songs on belly dancing scenes. We are making
fun -- we are having sketches; people are making fun of them.
I think if there's anybody who's making a mockery of our religion, it is that people like ISIS and people like killing "Charlie Hebdo."
I mean, I don't want to even call them extreme Muslims. I think they are a bunch of lunatics who, instead of playing "Grand Theft Auto" on video
games, they want to do it in real life.
So they are just a bunch of murderers. And whether they put a black flag or whatever religious slogans, it happens with all religions. There
could be an extreme form of Ku Klux Klan, as much as I consider it. So they are crazy and they are a threat for me as much they are a threat to
you.
AMANPOUR: Do you think ironically that you might be popular again in Egypt now because you've got a regime that is no friend of the extreme
Islamists, and maybe some of your funny skits against the Muslim Brotherhood might fit right in with today's culture in Egypt.
YOUSSEF: Well, the thing is it's not -- I mean, you can't go back doing a show with a premeditated agenda. You cannot -- if you're going to
do the show, you're going to make fun of whatever. The question is will I be allowed to do, make fun of whatever because I might do -- I might make
fun, for example, of ISIS today but tomorrow I would like to make fun of people in authority.
The question is, will I allowed to be -- to do so.
And basically are there going to be TV channels in the region that would like to carry that kind of a show? That's the biggest question.
So I don't think it is likely that I'm going to be back on air anytime soon.
AMANPOUR: Perhaps you might be on the air, let's say, in the United States.
Have you thought about Jon Stewart's soon-to-be vacant seat at "The Daily Show" on Comedy Central?
YOUSSEF: Oh, I mean, the day that I actually been chosen to replace Jon Stewart will be like -- it will be glorious. But I don't think that
Americans would like to take their political satire from a Middle Eastern guy with a thick accent. I think this is going to be even more difficult
than electing a black president.
But you know, let's hope.
AMANPOUR: Bassem Youssef, thank you so much for joining me.
YOUSSEF: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now ISIS has been no friend to women, although women are going over there, thinking they're joining some great crusade. They have
ended up, some of them, wanting to come back, some of them really just being inducted into slavery. International Women's Day was celebrated
around the world this weekend.
In China, Premier Li Keqiang, posing with female delegates here, but hidden beneath the veneer of smiles and support, reality for too many
Chinese women. That's because five of these women are still detained for campaigning against pervasive sexual harassment that they've experienced
traveling on public transport.
Back in 1995, Beijing was the site of the U.N.'s 4th Women's Conference and as former U.S. first lady, Hillary Clinton let out an
impassioned cry for equality.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are
women's rights and women's rights are human rights once and for all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And 20 years since that iconic statement, women have made giant strides. But imagine a world where, for every step forward in the
battle for gender justice, there are a few steps back -- that's next.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, women's rights and this weekend's International Women's Day: since Hillary Clinton made her clarion call for
equality in Beijing 20 years ago, there has been much progress. Now she may seek to become America's first female president, but just look at this
grid. There are already 19 female heads of state and government around the world. Then again, according to the Inter-Parliamentary Union, that's only
a fraction of the 152 heads of state around the globe.
According to the United Nations, since its 1995 Beijing Conference, the number of women serving in legislatures has nearly doubled. But women
still make up only 22 percent of those politicians worldwide.
Post-conflict parts of Africa have seen some of the greatest gains there, with Rwanda leading the way.
Now in education, maternal mortality and access to clean water, women have made giant leaps forward. But they're also kept back because the U.N.
reports violence and sexual abuse against women remain pandemic levels.
India this week has been rocked by a documentary on a brutal gang rape and death that happened there in December 2012. The documentary shows one
of the defendants saying the woman was to blame for her own rape.
But what's angered Indian politicians about the film is not the fatal damage to the woman but the damage to the nation's image.
Even in the most developed countries, the U.N. says, the gender pay gap will not close for 70 years at the current rate. And yet perhaps the
surest way to equal rights is equal pay for equal play.
And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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