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The Battle to Retake Tikrit from ISIS; CIA Whistleblower Spoke Out about Torture; Imagine a World

Aired March 11, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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HALA GORANI, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: Iraqi troops to move on ISIS-controlled Tikrit, bolstered by Iranian-backed Shiite militia.

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GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Anything anyone does to counter ISIL is in the main a good outcome.

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GORANI (voice-over): But at what cost? I'll speak to our correspondent on the ground and a top expert on Iraq.

Plus from spy to convict. I speak with the first CIA agent to be jailed for leaking information to a journalist.

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GORANI: Good evening, everyone, welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani sitting in for Christiane.

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GORANI (voice-over): Iraqi forces are making major advances on Tikrit as they continue their military offensive to recapture that particular city

from ISIS militants. Today they took back control of Tikrit's military hospital just a few blocks south of the presidential palace, forcing ISIS

to retreat from the front lines to the center of the city.

But the militants have been putting up some strong resistance, blowing up a bridge over the river Tigris to try to stop the advance of those Iraqi

troops.

Elsewhere in the country, ISIS launched a new attack on Ramadi, firing more than 100 rockets and mortars into the city and setting off explosives at

checkpoints.

So ISIS in on the back foot on one front but gaining ground on another. We'll discuss how this is playing militarily with Anthony Cordesman. He's

from the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

But first, let's get out to Baghdad for the latest. Senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman is live for us there this hour.

Let's start with Tikrit first. I just said that ISIS is on the back foot there.

Is it accurate to use that term, do you think?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is, Hala, at this point. They've lost areas in the northern part of the city,

Qadisiya neighborhood is at the northern edge. That apparently is in the hands of the Iraqi forces and they've also been pushed back from the south

in addition to the eastern flank as well on the other side of the Tigris River.

Now the latest we've just gotten from sources on the ground is that the last route out of Tikrit to the northeast in the direction of Hawija, which

is a town that ISIS holds, has been cut as well. So they are basically surrounded. We expect the Iraqi forces -- that includes, of course, Sunni

tribesmen, Shia militia men as well as a smaller force, about a third of the forces, we believe, are Iraqi army and police. Basically surrounding

that town, we expect them to go further in. But it's going to have to be slow given that ISIS we understand has left behind a lot of IEDs, booby

traps, car bombs and so on -- Hala.

GORANI: So what is this formula that seems to be working at least partially and initially in Tikrit?

Could it be applied elsewhere? Because as we mentioned as well, Ramadi is now being attacked by ISIS militants.

WEDEMAN: Well, if you look at what happened last summer, the Iraqi army tried to retake Tikrit several times and the result was an absolute

disaster; in once instance, more than approximately 1,700 Iraqi soldiers killed as they tried to leave the Speicher base outside of Tikrit.

Now will this work as a model going forward? Perhaps. It really depends on how the Iraqi forces behave in taking Tikrit and holding Tikrit, keeping

in mind of course that it is a predominantly Sunni Arab town and much of the forces going in, with the exception of perhaps 1,000 Sunni tribesmen

are Shia, some of them bent on revenge for that, what they call here the massacre at Speicher.

As far as the situation in Ramadi goes, Hala, definitely touch-and-go there, according to provincial officials there; 17 car bombs and truck

bombs went off today at checkpoints outside government buildings in addition, as you mentioned, as more than 100 mortar rounds being fired into

the city.

The last we heard just now from sources in the city is that it is now under a curfew until further notice because they expect more attacks to come --

Hala.

GORANI: All right, thanks very much, Ben Wedeman.

And Ben, stand by, if you'd like to also take part in this conversation, of course, we welcome that.

Let's get to Anthony Cordesman, an expert on military strategy in the Middle East. He's with the think tank, The Center for Strategic and

International Studies and he joins me now from their studios in Washington.

Anthony Cordesman, first, let me run for our viewers something that General Martin Dempsey said, the top military commander in the United States, about

the Iranian support Iraqi forces are getting in their efforts to retake Tikrit. Listen.

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DEMPSEY: The activities of the Iranians, the support for the Iraqi security forces is a positive thing in military terms against ISIL. But we

are all concerned about what happens after the drums stop beating and ISIL is defeated and whether the government of Iraq will remain on a path to

provide an inclusive government for all of the various groups within it.

We're very concerned about that.

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GORANI: Martin Dempsey there, Anthony Cordesman, saying they're very concerned about once the fighting ends.

Would you be concerned?

ANTHONY CORDESMAN, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: I'd be extremely concerned. I think that if you look at some of the Iranian

coverage of this story, they are claiming they've been training these forces for months, that they are a major force operating not only within

the various Shiite militias but within the Iraqi army groups. It's already been very clear to Iraqis that this is an Iranian-led operation and not one

that has the support of the coalition.

And there are many Iraqis who wonder why the air power hasn't had a decisive effect or who really expect the United States to somehow take the

lead. So this is a case where Iran may be gaining very serious influence. The other problem -- and I think Ben Wedeman talked about this -- is that

none of us know what's going to happen when any of these cities actually are taken by Iraqi forces and what's going to happen to the Sunnis.

Now in the case of Tikrit, there are very few people left. Iakersh (ph) really came under attack when the Islamic State moved in in January. So

it's not a highly populated city. But if there are reprisals, this becomes a Shiite-on-Sunni struggle. If as the militia that Ben referred to hasn't

had the support or the arms and it's been complaining rather loudly that it hasn't had the same support as the Shiite militias, you not only can have

Iranian influence increase, but you can see the country divide and the Islamic State be replaced by a conflict between Iraqi, Sunni and Shiite.

GORANI: So can I ask you, Anthony Cordesman, if there's anything that can be done at this stage to avoid this worst-case scenario that you're

describing unfolding, going forward?

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CORDESMAN: The prime minister has taken a very strong view on this. All of the training efforts that are going into both the Shiite militia and the

various Iraqi units absolutely stress that they should not take reprisals against the Sunnis.

You had key religious figures like Sistani very clearly say that Iraqis must act as Iraqis, not divide along sectarian lines. People like Sadr,

who in the past have been seen as sort of a source of division, have called for unity.

So yes, there are elements within the Shiite militias that take a different stand. But with the encouragement of Iran, the United States, the Iraqi

government and senior Shiite religious figures, a lot is being done to try to prevent this worst-case scenario from happening.

GORANI: But is it enough, Ben Wedeman is still in Baghdad with us, you were there on the front lines not far from Tikrit.

I mean, what happens once the battle is over and you have the Iraqi army, backed by Shiite militias, in a heavily majority Sunni area? They could be

more symbolic than Sunnis for Tikrit. It's the hometown of Saddam Hussein after all.

WEDEMAN: Well, we already got a taste of what could happen. In fact, when we were at front lines the other day, speaking to Hadi al-Ameri, who's the

head of the Badr Organization, and one of the leaders of the al-Hashed al- Shabi -- this is this paramilitary force formed last summer after the near- collapse of the Iraqi army.

As we were talking to him I asked him have there been violations; what are you going to do about them if there are?

He said, "We will punish anybody who damages the property or takes revenge upon the local population."

At the same time, however, just down the road, there were houses on fire that had clearly been set on fire by some of the men clearly under his

control.

So and also there's definitely an edge. There's an air of revenge among some of the fighter, who well remember had relatives who were part of the

so-called Speicher massacre. So there does seem to be an attempt at the leadership level to rein in the troops and prevent some sort of reprisals.

But I think it's inevitable that it's going to happen. We saw earlier a few months ago in Diyala province when many of the same armed groups, Shia

groups, went into Diyala province, drove out ISIS in many areas that there were not only revenge killings and destruction; there were apparently

beheadings as well.

So it's a complicated situation. And it's important to keep in mind also that there are, in fact, Sunni troops -- or, rather, militia men --

fighting alongside, even as part of this Hashed al-Shabi organization. However, many of them are from the Jabbour tribe, which has had an

antagonistic relationship with ISIS from the beginning.

But there's a very good possibility that they will be taking revenge on fellow Sunnis within Tikrit who they see as collaborators so we have a very

combustible situation developing here and it's going to take some very strong leadership on the part of the government and the Shia community to

prevent something that may make an assault on Mosul even more difficult -- Hala.

GORANI: We'll see if the government of Haidar al-Abadi can manage this tough one with all the sectarian complications and tensions lying ahead for

the country.

Thank you very much, Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies and Ben Wedeman, our correspondent, live in Baghdad.

Now journalists on the front line of dangerous stories like my colleague, Ben, will expect and be prepared for danger. But imagine if that danger is

found reporting at home.

What you're seeing now is South African journalist Vuyo Mvoko being mugged on domestic broadcaster SABC. His attacker's apparently unfazed by being

caught on camera and broadcast to a national and international audience. SANEF, a non-profit promoting freedom of expression, says the video brings

home the level of criminality in South African society.

That was an understatement.

After a break, I speak to CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou. The consequences of speaking out against the U.S. federal government -- that's

next.

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GORANI: Welcome back to the program.

John Kiriakou was the first CIA officer to blow the whistle on the agency's use of waterboarding after the 9/11 attacks. He was sent to prison for

leaking classified information to a journalist and has just completed a 30- month sentence. No one from the CIA has been prosecuted for its, quote, "enhanced interrogation program," Kiriakou is the only CIA officer

connected to that program to go to prison.

But not of course for torture. The Obama administration has gone after more whistleblowers on espionage charges than all previous presidencies

combined. Kiriakou is now under house arrest in Virginia, where he joins me now.

Thanks for being with us. You were -- so you just completely this 30-month sentence and you were considered, as I mentioned there, to our viewers,

instrumental in exposing this enhanced interrogation technique called waterboarding.

And you're still very popular for your opinion on this.

So how are you now dealing with this post-prison period, having had time to process while you were detained everything that went on since your

revelation that waterboarding was used?

JOHN KIRIAKOU, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, politics aside, it's wonderful to be home. Anywhere is better than prison and home is the best. So I'm very

happy about that.

I've actually been happy with the pace of things in politics and relating to torture since I went into prison with the release of the torture report.

We know so much more now about what our government did. I think that it's important to have that kind of information released in order to help spark

debate about torture here in the United States.

GORANI: Now some people will say that's great; you shed light on a secret interrogation program that is considered torture by so many. But others

will say, well, you signed an oath after all. You promised to keep these things secret and you broke the law.

How do you answer that?

KIRIAKOU: Well, my oath was to protect the Constitution of the United States, not to keep illegal activity secret. And I'm proud to say that

I've honored that oath to the Constitution.

GORANI: OK. So therefore you have no regrets. If you had one regret, though, I read that you said I regret having revealed the name of one of

the operatives, is that correct?

KIRIAKOU: Yes, yes, that's correct. I should not have revealed the name. It was a momentary lapse in judgment and that I do regret.

GORANI: Do you think more should be prosecuted for these torture techniques that were used after 9/11 by the CIA?

KIRIAKOU: I do and I feel even more strongly about that now that the torture report has been released. It's one thing if you're a CIA officer

working in the field and you're told by your chief or by headquarters that the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques are legal. But it's an

entirely different thing to go over and above what had been approved by the Justice Department and in two cases we now know of because of the torture

report, prisoners were killed by CIA officers during interrogations. Those people should be prosecuted. The people who ordered the torture should at

least be investigated with an eye toward prosecution. The people who conceived of the torture and who wrote specious legal opinions endorsing

the torture, we should look at prosecuting those people.

GORANI: So this goes to the highest levels of the Bush administration government.

KIRIAKOU: I think that it does. I think that it goes all the way to the top. We know that the president signed off on the program. The vice

president, Vice President Cheney, has been a vocal supporter of the program. I think we need to look all the way to the top.

GORANI: Have you had an opportunity to speak with former colleagues at the CIA, including your superiors, since the revelation your prison sentence?

What was their reaction to your disclosures?

KIRIAKOU: I've been very, very fortunate with the support that I've had from former colleagues at the CIA. Several came to visit me in prison. I

had letters from more than a dozen and a half of them. I've really been heartened by the level of support that I've had from my former colleagues.

GORANI: And so you haven't gotten any from your former CIA colleagues even though some might argue, well, you revealed a name, you revealed an

interrogation technique technically to our enemies. You may have compromised lives by doing so. You haven't had any negative reaction from

your former colleagues?

KIRIAKOU: No negative reaction from anybody except the talking heads, the former directors of the CIA, directors of counterterrorism, who have gone

on television news programs to support the torture techniques.

Those people certainly have criticized me. But former colleagues at the working level, and even at the more senior levels, have been very

supportive.

I can tell you that I can count on one hand the number of former colleagues who have walked away from me. And I think that says a lot about the

workforce at the CIA.

GORANI: What is life like for you?

After all this, I mean, what's -- I mean, I know you can't leave your home, but what is life like now?

What does the future hold for you now that this has happened?

KIRIAKOU: Well, I think I've been very fortunate to have been offered a position at an eminent think tank here in Washington and I've accepted that

position. I look forward to writing about issues like torture and intelligence policy and even prison reform now.

And I hope to write and speak and teach and remain as vocal as possible.

GORANI: OK. Let me ask you about Edward Snowden for instance. And there have been reports and his lawyer has in fact confirmed that there have been

some discussions that someone like Edward Snowden should be able to return to the United States.

Now he leaked confidential NSA programs of surveillance on even American citizens.

Do you think someone like that should be prosecuted or not?

KIRIAKOU: Oh, no, I do not think Edward Snowden should be prosecuted. In fact, I sent him a letter, an open letter, about two years ago now, urging

not to return to the United States because I don't think he can get a fair trial in the United States.

What he did is the very definition of whistleblowing. He revealed evidence of waste, fraud, abuse or illegality. It's illegal for NSA to be spying on

American citizens. It's a violation of NSA's charter. And Edward Snowden told us that NSA was spying on American citizens. He shouldn't be punished

for that. He should be honored for it.

GORANI: OK. Now let's take a look at the legacy of the Obama administration because I was saying in my introduction before our interview

that this is the presidency that has gone after more whistleblowers than any other presidency, than, I should say, all other presidencies combined.

What do you make of that? Is this something that you've found surprising?

KIRIAKOU: I was very surprised by it. I bought into the whole hope and change thing back in 2008. I very proudly voted for President Obama and my

wife and I even walked to the National Mall in Washington and watched the inauguration.

So I've been woefully disappointed in this war on whistleblowers, really.

With that said, there have been indications that maybe this didn't come from the top, these prosecutions were not ordered directly by President

Obama, that instead it was Attorney General Holder.

And I'm hoping that once the attorney general leaves office, which ought to be in the next week or two, that the president might start making use of

that --

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GORANI: But John --

KIRIAKOU: -- pardon pen that he has.

GORANI: -- right, but John, let me ask you, where should a line be drawn? Because some would argue, OK, it's good that you have whistleblowers that

expose illegal practices happening within the heart of government.

But at what point should whistleblowing or the revelation of state secrets be considered a crime in your estimation?

KIRIAKOU: Well, if there's criminal intent and if there's harm to the national security, certainly a person should be prosecuted. But the

whistleblowers that President Obama has prosecuted or that have been prosecuted under President Obama none that we know of had criminal intent

or were deliberating harmed the national security. And that's why these prosecutions are so surprising.

If a person is going to be charged with espionage, as I was, with three counts of espionage, that person should have been working for an enemy

power or selling secrets for personal gain whether it's financial or otherwise. And none of the nine whistleblowers that President Obama has

ordered prosecuted have done any such thing.

GORANI: You consider yourself heroic?

KIRIAKOU: Oh, no, no. No, not at all. I don't consider myself heroic at all. I like to think that just about anybody would have said something

when they saw this torture program being carried out.

GORANI: John Kiriakou, thank you very much for joining us from Virginia today.

We're going to --

KIRIAKOU: Thank you very much for having me.

GORANI: -- thank you. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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GORANI: And finally, imagine a world where one of the most famous clarion calls against the British Empire holds pride and place in the capital of

the old country. As a handwritten copy of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson's copy from 1776 and the Bill of Rights, the historic

first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution are in Britain for the first time for a British Library exhibition which opens today, commemorating an

enduring legacy of law and liberty.

But the Declaration of Independence also attacked the absolute tyranny of the country it now resides in, Great Britain, decrying the nation for

imposing taxes without consent, for transporting citizens across the sea to be tried for pretended offenses and for depriving the benefits of trial by

jury.

But now the U.K. will embrace these historic American documents, exhibiting them alongside one of the greatest achievements in British history, the

remaining copies of the Magna Carta, a historic meeting but also one that could have happened more than 70 years ago. This time on U.S. soil, as the

display will also host government papers revealing Winston Churchill tried to gift a Magna Carta copy to the United States in exchange for American

support in World War II, saying that after all, Britain owned four copies of the Magna Carta, so had a spare or two.

That's going to do it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show on amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

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