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Amanpour
Tunisia, Arab Spring Success, under Attack; Fighting Corruption and Boko Haram in Nigeria; Imagine a World. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired March 18, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[15:00:11] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight: is Tunisia, the Arab Spring's success story, at risk after terrorists target the parliament and
a museum in the capital, killing 19 people, most of them foreign tourists?
I'll speak to an MP who was evacuated in the chaos plus the country's representative in Washington.
Also ahead, my interview with the emir of Kano in Northern Nigeria on fighting corruption and Boko Haram.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAMIDO SANUSI, EMIR OF KANO: The idea of Boko Haram or anyone that links up with (ph) ISIS is frightening, partly because these are groups that
represent a lunatic fringe in Islam.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Gunmen killed 19 people at a museum in the Tunisian capital, Tunis; 17 of them were tourists. Tourists flock to the North African country in droves.
People fled the museum and security forces moved in and ended a two-hour hostage standoff by killing two attackers.
They were described by the government as "Islamists," but three of them remain on the loose, the prime minister says.
Right now, Tunisia's parliament is meeting in a special session. Such an attack may, unfortunately, have been inevitable, as you can see in this map
behind me, more people have traveled from Tunisia to fight in Syria and Iraq than from any other country, whether from the Arab world or Europe.
But Tunisia, where the Arab Spring began, has largely been a source of hope for the region, enjoying democracy and peaceful transitions of power, a
sentiment the Tunisians' then-president expressed to me back in 2013.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONCEF MARZOUKI, TUNISIAN PRESIDENT: I'm very, very confident. I think the Arab Spring which started in Tunisia will not die in Tunisia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Will that hope stay alive or is it fading?
Joining me now on the phone from Tunis is Meherzia Labidi, who was in parliament at the time of the museum attack. She's an MP for the moderate
Islamist Party Ennahda.
Ms. Labidi, thank you for joining me.
Tell me what happened when you were in parliament.
MEHERZIA LABIDI, TUNISIAN MP: Indeed, today, is a day where the commission, different commissions are working in the parliament. So we are
about 80 MPs, working in different rooms. Then we heard that there is a shooting. There is a sound of exploder (sic) and so we are asked out and
the security told us that there is three or four guys. Now we are sure that they are for -- they are with the arms (ph). They intrude (ph) and
they are -- they've been shooting on the tourists who were getting from buses to enter the museum.
And you know, the museum of Bardo and the parliament are in the same building, two different entrances, but the same building.
So the tourists who were frightened (ph) and they were running in different directions, we opened the doors and we get them to enter to the parliament
and to secure them.
And in doing so, three of our employees were injured.
AMANPOUR: Ms. Labidi, this is obviously a huge, huge shock for Tunisia. I raised the question is the hope of Tunisia and this beginning of the Arab
Spring, the success story, really, in your region, is that hope at jeopardy right now?
LABIDI: No, no. We will not surrender to terrorism. We will not surrender to fear. Of course, we are very sad, very sad that our hosts --
our guests who came from different countries, 17 or maybe more of them have been killed. And this is not Tunisia.
And terrorism, we fight it altogether. Today, we've united, one voice, all MPs, all political parties, media, citizens. We are all backing our army
and police force to get rid of terrorism.
Now we will succeed.
(CROSSTALK)
LABIDI: -- we are firmly, firmly have the intention to reject terrorism, to fight it and we will not surrender. We will succeed.
(CROSSTALK)
[15:05:00] AMANPOUR: You sound so determined and hopeful.
But tell me, then, what happened in Tunisia?
Why is it that, for instance, more Tunisians than from any other country are joining the fight with ISIS and others in Iraq and Syria?
Why from your country?
LABIDI: Yes. Well, I think this is the inheritance of the past. During the two past decades, there is no real culture of religion or culture
simply, not only on religious matters. And this has deprived our youth from, let's say, self-defense against these ideas, which are extremist and
against manipulation.
And we have not only to develop a security answer to terrorism, but also an educational answer, culture, restore dialogue and let's not forget that of
course many -- I think more than 3,000 youths went to Syria. But we have prevented, I think more than 9,000 to go. And we are welcome them to this
freedom, to tell them that life in Tunisia, life in democracy is better when -- than what some people try to sell them and saying that you have to
be jihad.
There is no jihad, apart the jihad, let's say, bettering the self and bettering our country and implementing democracy. We have really to work
on the cultural level and --
(CROSSTALK)
LABIDI: -- development (ph) of ideas --
AMANPOUR: Yes, you have -- you have a --
LABIDI: -- development.
AMANPOUR: -- you have a very challenging road ahead. We wish you good luck, officer.
Mehrezia Labidi, MP from the moderate Islamist Party Ennahda, thank you for joining me at parliament right now.
And now joining me from Washington, D.C., is Kais Darragi. He is the charge d'affaires at the Tunisian embassy.
Thank you for joining me.
Can I just build on what Ms. Labidi has just told me about what went down today?
Do you, does the government know who these killers were?
Who exactly are they?
KAIS DARRAGI, CHARGE D'AFFAIRES, TUNISIAN EMBASSY: Two of the killers have been killed themselves. And their identity has been revealed.
But we cannot speculate right now about their affiliation, but we can stipulate and say that it might be the Okba Ibn Nafaa Brigade or Ansar al-
Sharia, the two terrorist organizations that have merged in 2014 under the leadership of the Algerian, Abou Sakhr.
That might be a possibility.
AMANPOUR: So isn't this the same group whose Libyan branch was responsible for the Benghazi attack, the attack on the ambassador, Chris Stevens,
there?
DARRAGI: There is solid ground to believe in this possibility. But I think we have to let investigation take its course and we'll find out who
was responsible for this attack.
AMANPOUR: And why -- I did ask Ms. Labidi this, and she answered from her perspective; from your perspective and the presidential perspective, why
has this spike of terrorism happened right now?
DARRAGI: It's quite understandable and expected. I mean, Tunisia has been a symbol of democracy and enlightenment in the region. And we have won the
battle of ideas against these marginal and extremist groups.
They cannot be integrated into a democratic process; they are not interested in democratic debates and democratic processes. So they resort
to violence. That's the only kind of weapon they have.
The Tunisians are determined to respond to this violence by applying the weapon they most fear, that is liberty and democracy. We persevere on this
process, on this track. And that's the only way to win this battle against terrorists who would like to derail the process.
But Tunisia is fulfilling its promise and it will remain a beacon of democracy and hope for the whole region.
AMANPOUR: Well, you say it's not surprising, but of course everybody is surprised precisely because of Tunisia's smooth transition since the Arab
Spring and its elections and its handover of power in a way that was democratic.
So people are worried. And Tunisia is a place where, unlike many of the other North African countries, you have -- you have tourists still flocking
to you.
Do you think that's, you know, this is going to put more pressure on your already fragile economic situation?
DARRAGI: That's even another reason to make Tunisia more valuable. I mean, if you look at the targets of this terrorist attack, they have been -
- attacked two symbols, two major symbols of Tunisia, the Bardo Museum, which is an embodiment of Tunisian culture, of Tunisian history, of
Tunisian openness, and mingling point of different civilizations.
[15:10:03] That's something they hate. They hate culture.
And the house of parliament, which is the embodiment of the sovereignty of the people, which is the emanation of free and democratic elections that
were celebrated everywhere.
So by attacking these two targets, they are showing their despair and their desperate attempts to derail this process. But if you see reactions today
in Tunisia, it started from anger and then formidable stance of national unity. That's how we are going to win this battle. Tunisia will prevail.
Democracy in Tunisia will prevail.
AMANPOUR: What about the -- those who lost their lives and who were injured today?
Can you tell me more about the nationalities of those who were killed today, the tourists?
DARRAGI: We have unfortunately some tourists who have been killed, some Tunisians, too, two Tunisians, too. Our thoughts and prayers go to their
families, to the family of the victims, those who are dead and those who were injured.
But the information we have so far is that we have some casualties among Italian tourists, Spanish, Polish tourists. That's for the moment. That's
the kind of information we have.
AMANPOUR: Kais Darragi, charge d'affaires at the Tunisian embassy in D.C., thank you very much indeed --
(CROSSTALK)
DARRAGI: Can I just say a word about the solidarity we have found within the U.S.?
AMANPOUR: Go ahead -- briefly.
DARRAGI: We were really overwhelmed with expressions of support from the White House, from the State Department, but most importantly from ordinary
citizens of the U.S. We have received so many calls, particularly one from Boston, one who survived the attack on Boston and who was very much on the
stance that this is an international battle, that this is a battle of values and that we will have to win it together.
We thank all Americans for their support. And we should not all give into fear.
Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Beautifully said. Kais Darragi from the Tunisian embassy in Washington, thank you very much for joining me.
And after a break, we turn from terror in Tunisia to Boko Haram's war on Nigeria.
But first, a cry for mercy and justice in Pakistan as this man faces the gallows for a crime he says he was tortured into admitting when he was just
14. Shafqat Hussain has spent 11 years on death row for the murder of a 7- year-old boy. His family's appealing to the courts for mercy; his mother hasn't seen him in 10 years. And just as we've come on air, state
television in Pakistan is reporting a stay of execution. The execution was due tomorrow morning. But Hussain still doesn't know his ultimate fate.
When we come back, Nigeria's struggle with Boko Haram and corruption. I speak to the man who's taken on both, the emir of Kano. That's next.
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[15:15:14] AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
In 10 days' time, Nigerians will go to the polls to vote for their next president. The elections were postponed by six weeks because of massive
security threat from the terror group Boko Haram.
My next guest is the former governor of Nigeria's central bank, who blew the whistle on corruption in the oil industry and he was forced out.
Lamido Sanusi is now the emir of Kano, a state in the north of the country and he's taking the fight to Boko Haram there. He is also Nigeria's
second-most senior Muslim figure.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Emir Sanusi, welcome to the program and thanks for joining me from Paris.
SANUSI: Thanks, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Let me first and foremost ask you very, very important question about your northern region, blighted and under assault by Boko Haram.
How much of a bad thing is it that they've now aligned themselves with ISIS?
SANUSI: Well, you know, the idea of Boko Haram or anyone that links up with (ph) ISIS is frightening, partly because these are groups that
represent a lunatic fringe in Islam and who are very ruthless.
We have had more than six years of Boko Haram, about 15,000 people dead. The prospect of their getting financial support, military, logistic support
from a group as ISIS basically frightens all of us.
However, there is progress made in Nigeria now, in getting territory back from Boko Haram. In a sense, it reflects a weakness. I think the fact
that they're being pushed back and ISIS also being pushed back in Tikrit may actually account for some of those declarations.
AMANPOUR: Well, you take hope from these developments.
Who is pushing Boko Haram back in your area, in Kano, in the north there?
SANUSI: Well, it's largely, at the moment, international armies from Chad, from Niger, from Cameroon in the northeast. There is the Nigerian army and
we hear there are also mercenaries from South Africa. Unfortunately, this is -- we're paying the price for passivity for six years. This is up in
the shape-up in (ph) many years ago.
But in the last six weeks, there has been progress and we must encourage the state to do that and protect lives and property.
AMANPOUR: You yourself have had your own life threatened because of the way you spoke out against Boko Haram.
How safe are you and can you actually succeed in your campaign to isolate them and to bring progress to your region?
SANUSI: Well, first of all, Christiane, if I had a way of knowing, for example, that if Boko Haram took my life, they would stop killing people in
Nigeria, I'd gladly give up my life. I have nothing else to live for. I've achieved everything I wanted to achieve.
I think the important thing is for every Muslim leader to speak up and for the Muslims to let the world know that this is not Islam, for the society
not to accept them and certainly not to give them accommodation, for the state to protect the people to the best of its ability and for genuine
grievances to be addressed.
We have -- we are a very unequal society, vertically and horizontally. There's a lot of poverty. There is a lot of unemployment. There are
conditions that have been created that make it possible for youth to be radicalized. All of these have to be addressed at one and the same time.
But silence or fear will not be a solution and it will not stop them from targeting leaders.
AMANPOUR: I'd like to play for you a little bit of an interview that I did about another issue that is quite close to your heart, and that is
corruption.
I interviewed one of the opposition candidates, Buhari, who's running against President Goodluck Jonathan. And this is what he said about the
state of affairs in your country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. MUHAMMADU BUHARI, APC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are serious students of this country that said unless Nigeria kills corruption,
corruption will kill Nigeria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So from your perspective, Emir, will Nigeria kill corruption or is corruption going to kill Nigeria?
SANUSI: I think for a long time the Nigerian state has been captive to vested interests and the state has been a site for the extraction of rents
(ph). I think the Nigerian political elites must recognize that if this does not change, the country cannot survive independently.
We cannot continue like this. There has to be investment in capital; there has to be investment in infrastructure, in power, in health care, in
education. The state cannot just exist to make a few people very rich.
Corruption is an old story. Nigeria, the perception, has always been bad. I don't think we've helped matters by being in denial. I have spoken a lot
about this in the past. I don't want to say too much because we're too close to an election and I don't want to be accused of getting into
politics.
[15:20:02] But General Buhari is right. We need to do something about corruption if the country is going to survive.
AMANPOUR: Well, you are pretty much quite uniquely positioned to speak about it. After all, you were ousted from your position as governor of the
central bank because of the expose on the mismanagement of the National Petroleum Corporation, apparently misappropriating, according to you, $20
billion in public funds.
You know, these are not peanuts. This is wholescale thievery that obviously affects the development of your country and your people.
Is there any hope that this will be changed after an election?
SANUSI: Well, you know, my position in the central bank was always that there was this gap of $20 billion between -- I mean, after reconciliation,
between what NPC exported and what (INAUDIBLE) account.
And I raised a number of issues that I think have not yet been discussed and addressed sufficiently. One of them is billions of dollars being paid
in kerosene (ph) subsidy without appropriation by the national assembly and against a presidential order. And we don't know who authorized those
statements yet. Nobody has owned up to say I authorized the payment and made a mistake; it will stop.
I think those issues need to be addressed. And until we address them, and begin to close all the loopholes in government revenues, we're going to
continue to create opportunities for extraction of rent (ph) and for the disruption of the economy.
Now it could be $20 billion at the end of the day after reconciliation that could account for $10 billion or $12 billion. I do know that these issues
reflect unconstitutional and illegal withholding of revenues from federation accounts.
The country's paying the price today: oil prices crashed, the currency has been devalued, the stock market has collapsed. Government revenues are in
a very bad shape.
Whoever wins, this government or the opposition, will have to deal with these issues and the petroleum sector is a major drain on the resources of
the country and this has to be looked at.
AMANPOUR: Do you think there is a sense, whether this government or another government, that they care about the north, that they will do
something to empower and ameliorate (ph) their lives so that it doesn't become a recruiting tool for Boko Haram going forward?
SANUSI: I think what we need is to have federal, state and local governments focus on the welfare of the people, focus on growing an economy
that will create jobs and understand that there is a very strong connection between economic (ph) deprivation and political violence.
Many of these things are not just crazy, hare-brained ideas. They're borne out of political calculation to change economic conditions and create
opportunities for some people and they're also borne out of the huge inequalities that we see, between the rich and the poor and among different
regions of the country.
I think whoever is in the federal government must recognize that if these issues are not addressed, he's going to find it very, very difficult to
govern.
AMANPOUR: Huge challenges ahead.
Emir Lamido Sanusi of Kano, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
SANUSI: Thank you very much, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And it was nearly one year ago when 200 girls were taken by Boko Haram from Northern Nigeria, hundreds more have been taken, too. And
despite a "Bring Back Our Girls" campaign that went viral, they are not back. And the emir told me sadly the longer time goes on, the less chance
there is of them returning.
Meantime, Russia revels in reuniting with Crimea. Sebastopol on the Black Sea and also Moscow were filled with celebrations on the first anniversary
of annexing that part of Ukraine. President Putin, his popularity still sky-high, addressed the crowd even as the international community considers
increasing sanctions.
Putin had told Russian television that he had long planned this annexation, still deemed illegal by the U.N., and he even says that he put his nuclear
forces on alert over the crisis last year.
Next, imagining a world finding light from turmoil on our nearest star. A tempest on the sun paints beauty in the night sky. That's when we come
back.
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[15:27:05] AMANPOUR: And finally tonight: Looking up. Imagine a world witness to a cosmic ballet, one of the biggest spikes in solar activity in
the past two decades has hit our planet. So far, the major result has been an influx of beauty as the Northern Lights spread south in the early hours
of this morning, giving areas like the Lake District here in Britain sights that they would rarely see. And as the week goes on, they could even
continue further south. Forecasters are predicting that people in Germany, Poland and Russia could see this phenomenon, known as the aurora borealis.
The cosmic light show is also traveling up from the Southern Hemisphere, where it's known as the aurora australis. Behind me, the solar tempest
reaching New Zealand last night.
But this is just the beginning in a week where the skylights have us all looking heavenwards. On Friday morning, a solar eclipse will darken the
skies about the U.K. and much of Europe as the moon passes between the Earth and the sun. And we won't see the likes of this again until 2090.
That is it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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