Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Interview with Nigeria's President-Elect; Investigation into Lubitz's State of Mind; Witnessing Conflict through Four Decades; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 03, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight: 10 years, still counting the cost of this week's Al-Shabaab atrocity on a university campus, a craven

attack on young people seeking an education.

While hundreds of girls kidnapped by Boko Haram in Nigeria are still missing, in his first interview, President-Elect Muhammadu Buhari serves

time on those terrorists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUHAMMADU BUHARI, PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA: This will rapidly give attention to security in the country and I believe we'll effectively deal

with them in a few months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus with more revelations about the state of mind of Germanwings copilot Andreas Lubitz, Britain's top psychiatrist

tells us depression is a reason not to fly a plane.

And we speak to a 40-year veteran of reporting conflict from Iraq to Sarajevo, John Burns on retiring from "The New York Times."

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): As more details emerge from the shocking attack by Al-Shabaab terrorists at a Kenyan university, it seems the world

right now is wracked by almost daily spectacular hit-and-run attacks on soft targets, this one on young people, attempting to seek an education,

echoes what's going on in Nigeria, where hundreds of girls stolen by Boko Haram are still missing.

Against this backdrop, Nigeria held its election and saw a historic and peaceful transition of power from President Goodluck Jonathan to his

challenger, Muhammadu Buhari. And shortly after the result was announced, he gave me his first interview as president-elect, despite his victory for

democracy in Nigeria, though, he faces truly daunting challenges ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. President-Elect, welcome to the program.

How surprised were you by the scale of your win?

This is the first time an opposition candidate has beaten an incumbent in Nigeria.

BUHARI: Well, I'm not surprised because of how we came into the maja (ph). The main opposition parties in Nigeria decided to come together to

face the ruling party

AMANPOUR: Boko Haram has been a plague on your nation for years now. I mean, the famous girls, the girls of Chibok, who are still not returned,

how are you going to be able to do what the previous government didn't do?

BUHARI: Well, I think firstly we have to (INAUDIBLE) cooperation of the neighboring countries, Cameroon, Chad and Niger, although some effort

was made by this administration. But it wasn't good enough and it was too late, too little. We expected the federal government at least four years

ago to have set down these countries I mentioned to make sure they don't allow the terrorists free movements across borders, (INAUDIBLE) and

movement of weapons. This is only then about two months ago. And we have (INAUDIBLE) by the way the Chadians and the Nigerians and the Cameroonians

are virtually fighting the Boko Haram more than Nigeria is doing until recently.

So really we have seen enough and we have enough reinforcement agencies to face the Boko Haram squarely.

AMANPOUR: You were a military ruler. You came to power after a coup in 1980s and as you know -- and I read all this to you the last time we

talked -- you know, you had banned political meetings and free speech. You had detained thousands of people. There were secret tribunals, executing

people for crimes that were not capital offenses.

This all went on under your rule in the '80s.

Have you changed?

Are you now a real democrat?

BUHARI: The only thing, as I said, is that I did that what you allege to have been done by me under a military administration. As a citizen, I

am a converted democrat. And I attempted to get to office three times and three times I ended up in the highest court in the country, the supreme

court. And the allegation that people who were executed, who were --

(AUDIO GAP)

BUHARI: -- this is December 1983 -- the administration, we decided as a government to prescribe a death sentence on drug traffickers. So they

would know we made them know before people were successfully prosecuted and executed.

AMANPOUR: And what about corruption?

You mentioned corruption earlier. That is such a huge problem for Nigeria. You're such a rich country and yet so much gets siphoned off into

people's pockets.

What will you do differently to make sure that that is dramatically reduced?

BUHARI: Well, (INAUDIBLE) very difficult from my experience. And it is a record that in every ministry, in every (INAUDIBLE) in Nigeria there

are documents about (INAUDIBLE) and financial (INAUDIBLE). But those (INAUDIBLE) because leadership at the various stages who have been held

hostage because of their corrupt practices and if we -- and God willing, we shall -- make sure that corruption is eradicated in Nigeria.

AMANPOUR: President-Elect Muhammadu Buhari, thank you very much for joining us for your first interview since your victory yesterday.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And stark new developments in this week's other major story, the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525. Investigators have found the

context (sic) of the second black box. It was discovered in the wreckage in the French Alps. We also know more now about the copilot, Andreas

Lubitz. It emerges that a few months before the crash Lubitz was seeing several doctors for a severe bout of depression.

According to a law enforcement source close to the investigation, that is. And analysis of a tablet device belonging to him shows that he

researched the Internet for information about cockpit doors and methods of suicide.

So will that change the charges possibly against him? With a raging debate over whether depression should be a barrier to flying, this week

Britain's most senior psychiatrist, Professor Sir Simon Wessely told me, yes, it absolutely should be. He's president of the Royal College of

Psychiatrists.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: At what point, Professor, does someone's right to privacy become another death sentence?

SIMON WESSELY, PRESIDENT, ROYAL COLLEGE OF PSYCHIATRISTS: Well, clearly, everyone knows that there's a major duty of medical

confidentiality and that's what you want when you went to see any doctor, especially a psychiatrist.

But equally in our system and in most systems around the world, there comes a point at which that is not absolute. And that will happen when

there is a serious risk to some other people or person.

AMANPOUR: Like this one.

WESSELY: Well, possibly. I mean, I've had in my career once where I had to break confidentiality where there was a risk to another person. But

particularly if you're dealing -- and let's take a simpler example. If you are dealing with someone with epilepsy in this country and you happen to

find out they're having fits and they're still driving, and they refuse to stop, you have a duty to tell the authorities.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, this is actually rather revelatory to me because all day and all week people have been having this argument.

Is a patient's right to privacy sacrosanct?

For instance, in Germany, the law states that a doctor cannot reveal.

WESSELY: Yes. Germany's a little different; actually for historical reasons, it's even more sensitive about data around a mental illness. And

if you know your history you will know why.

In this country, we're not quite like that. So there are examples -- for example, to prevent an act of terrorism, there is a duty on doctors to

break confidentiality.

And the first thing you would do is try and persuade someone not to do whatever it is they're doing, for example, if they're thinking of flying.

And it -- I would have thought maybe 900,000 times out of 100,000 (sic) that will be sufficient because pilots are sensible people and they

will agree for their personal health.

AMANPOUR: Well, you have actually treated some pilots when you were doing clinical work plus you've treated military personnel. I mean, stress

levels are really high. Presumably they're not immune from this one-in- five statistic.

WESSELY: No, they're not at all, no. And when someone is depressed, it's absolutely clear -- in this country and, I imagine, everywhere -- that

you cannot fly an aircraft. And that's clear.

And if should you think that someone is or more likely if someone in the crew thinks that the pilot is suffering from some form of mental

disorder, that would be dealt with immediately. That's absolutely clear.

The discussion really is about what happens if you've had a history of mental disorder, should you then be banned forever from certain

professions?

And that's very much been what the debate is. If you are acutely depressed or suffering from really any physical illness that impairs your

ability to fly, you shouldn't fly.

And I think one of the things we should point out, we don't let pilots fly with depression, not because we're worried that they're going to murder

everybody on board. That's such an extraordinary possibility that that's not depression. But because they're impaired in concentration, memory and

attention, which isn't good for pilots.

AMANPOUR: So can we -- there's a lot of aspects to this. Number one, we should not allow a pilot with depression to fly a plane. You say that's

clear.

WESSELY: Yes.

AMANPOUR: OK. So we've cleared that up.

What about -- now let's get to this history of depression because apparently the state prosecutor says this particular individual at some

time -- this is before 2013 -- was suicidal.

Apparently and according to these prosecutors, they did find a torn-up sick note in his dustbin. And yet the Germanwings Lufthansa officials on

the day of the crash said he was 100 percent fit to fly.

So there's a breakdown there.

WESSELY: Yes. I mean, it is too early to know exactly what happened and who knew what when. I imagine eventually it will all come out.

I know what would normally happen and I certainly know in this country a pilot who's previously had some form of mental disorder -- or physical

disorder, it's much the same -- would remain under supervision.

And they would be seeing their qualified psychiatrist in this case and there's no chance of them resuming flying until they're better, until

they're stable and until they've passed all their tests -- which, by the way, I've actually sat through a flight simulator. You have to be very,

very robust not to crack up if -- you know, without any history at all. It's terrifying.

So they have really robust simulation of what they have to face. And that they all have to pass. And if they don't -- and I'm sorry, then many

pilots have had to retire for these reasons.

AMANPOUR: Professor Simon Wessely, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The difficult job of getting that pendulum finally balanced between privacy and safety.

And when we come back, celebrating the storied career of a war reporter and cherished colleague, who witnessed four decades of world-

changing history. That's next.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Despite the previous days and the horrors of Al-Shabaab and Boko Haram in Africa, this week also saw a major victory against ISIS in Iraq.

Celebrations in the streets as Tikrit was liberated and Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi led a victory parade.

But one day later, a blow in Syria, as ISIS seized part of the devastated Yarmouk refugee camp near Damascus. Palestinians and Syrian

rebel fighters are battling to retake it. It is home to about 18,000 people.

And few people know the Middle East quite like my colleague, John Burns, the Pulitzer Prize-winning "New York Times" reporter from Sarajevo

to Iraq, his distinguished career began in South Africa in 1975. Now 10 foreign bureaus and 3,330 articles later, he's retiring.

This week he reflected on the chaos and the brutality of the Middle East today as well as on the poignant humanity of the ordinary people he

witnessed who were caught in the throes of war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: John Burns, welcome to the program.

JOHN F. BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's a pleasure.

AMANPOUR: John, you have been both Islamic affairs correspondent for "The New York Times." You were also the bureau chief in Iraq.

How do you see, if you were on the ground now there, you know, the developments, ISIS, can that be beaten back?

How do you see it as a reporter?

BURNS: Well, my starting point now, which is a long way from where I was in 2003, is that we in the West have to accept that we can neither

influence much less decide the outcome of these events, which are driven by 1,000 years of history and involve, of course, critically the issues of

faith and that we are now, unfortunately as it may be, we're reduced to the role of bystanders. Some would say guilty bystanders.

And the best that we can or even should do, in my view, is mitigate the suffering.

AMANPOUR: John, mitigating the suffering often means reporters going there and telling the world about the suffering. We did that in Sarajevo.

It has been too difficult to do it in Syria.

We have this wonderful picture of the violinist -- the cellist, sorry -- in Sarajevo and we all remember him so well. And you told that story

first. And there's the picture of him --

BURNS: There he is.

AMANPOUR: -- it was an amazing moment.

What do you remember from that and the power of his music?

And that was what we used to call the breadline massacre right there.

BURNS: The breadline massacre. Well, for me it was a serendipity. I was actually writing, after a hectic weekend, of -- reporting on a city

that was being murdered, brutally murdered by the Serbian forces.

And as I was about to press the button on this story late on a Sunday afternoon, a wonderful man, a New Zealander, Kiwi, a photographer, Andrew

Reid, came into my hidey-hole and said you've got to come with me.

I said, "I cannot come with you. I'm on deadline on a very important story."

He said, "Believe me, you'll never forgive yourself if you don't come."

And he led me out about 500 yards down the walking street, and there he was.

And when he finished, I said to him, "Can I stop you long enough to explain to me what you were doing?"

And he said, "Who's buying the whisky?"

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: So in the midst of all that, he was still a human being.

Well, John, you set the bar; two Pulitzer Prizes, one for Bosnia, one for Afghanistan, and definitive, groundbreaking reportage.

Fast forward so many years, and it was Iraq around the time of the U.S. invasion there.

And you were bureau chief and you, along with your wife, who was also bureau manager there, you made some very critical recommendations to "The

New York Times" about safety and about how you could even just continue reporting from that very dangerous place.

Tell us what you did.

BURNS: Well, I think we, as a profession, had sleepwalked, slept walked - whatever the past tense of that is -- into a belief that we were

not the targets, that we -- the First Amendment traveled with us.

It didn't, of course.

And I thought, we've got to go hard in this idiom of the time, rather than soft. I was, as you know, pretty heavily criticized for this, people

saying you're going to make us look like competents (ph) and I went to New York and said we cannot cover this war, we cannot survive unless we protect

ourselves and build ourselves what the American military call a FOB, a forward operating base, with all that that implies. And it's 20-foot-high

blast walls and, I regret to say, something that we made very little of at the time, machine guns to defend ourselves, a private army and militia of

about 60 people, which was pretty strictly governed. We did not want to go to war but we needed to protect ourselves. And I think I can say that most

other media organizations either decided that they couldn't any longer expose as many as television crews did their people to this level of risk

or to go hard as we did.

AMANPOUR: Everybody did and you set the standard there as well. And now we have this awful situation, which we did see in Iraq as well, the

beheading of Westerners and now in Syria the beheading of journalists.

It has just got exponentially more difficult to tell the story from where it has to be told.

BURNS: It has. It has, and that's very regrettable.

But you know, not being there, regrettable as it is, doesn't mean that there's not a lot that we can do. It would be better if we could be there

first-hand to recount the suffering. But if you're a responsible editor in New York or London, it's simply not possible any longer to expect people to

take the level of risk.

Unfortunately, that then falls to brave freelancers, who, as we have seen in the case of some who've lost their lives there, have paid a very

high price.

AMANPOUR: You have always been a little bit of a rebel. You have not actually been the correspondent who's rushed to shine his stars at

headquarters. In fact, Susan Chira, who's the deputy executive editor of "The New York Times," wrote a beautiful article to mark the announcement of

your retirement.

Among several things, she tactfully referred to your infrequent forays to headquarters, "a place that he spent most of his 40 years at 'The New

York Times' managing to avoid."

(LAUGHTER)

BURNS: Well, it's one of the joys of being a foreign correspondent, that you're free before the wind and being held to account -- I have to say

"The New York Times" was always extremely pleasant to me. I never went home without thinking they're going to fire me and without being astonished

at the reception that they gave me.

So they were very kind. But none of us much like being held to account. And by the way, I don't think that's peculiar to people who are in our

profession as foreign correspondents.

AMANPOUR: So what would you advice an up-and-coming foreign correspondent?

BURNS: Well, first of all, I would say look for the next big conflict. Not always to spot. And go make yourself useful. To get a

staff job as a foreign correspondent is difficult now, not least because the numbers have been so reduced and because of the -- but go abroad and

turn up and knock on the door of "The New York Times" or CNN or BBC and say, "I'm here. I want to help."

And nine cases out of 10, they'll say it's our good fortune and your good fortune, we just happen to.

And how many people started like that?

And here I am, still grinding away, as I always did.

AMANPOUR: John Burns, thank you very much indeed.

BURNS: It's been a real pleasure to be back with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Reflections on a brilliant career.

And coming up after a short break, imagine a world where willpower and compassion literally create a pathway to closure for the families of the

Germanwings victims. That's next.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, 126 years ago this week, the astonishing Eiffel Tower was unveiled in Paris, completed in an equally

astonishing two short years. Now on the anniversary of Gustav Eiffel's towering achievement, imagine a world where France creates another

engineering marvel, building a road to the previously unreachable crash site of the Germanwings flight.

Just two days after work began last Sunday, vehicles began driving along the road all this week. It's more than a kilometer long and it's

built using the same stones that have made the debris field dangerous for recovery workers. Police on the scene now tell reporters that a 45-minute

journey by road means they can work faster, later and bring back more items and human remains. And indeed they have now found the matches of 150 DNA

samples, that is all those who were killed on board Germanwings, giving those desperately grieving family members just all relief if not closure.

If only Gustav Eiffel could see his countrymen building on his legacy today, this time compassion spurring on French ingenuity in all its glory,

proving of course that where there is a will, there is a way.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END