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Amanpour

Thousands of Migrants Adrift in Southeast Asia; Fears of Growing Violence in Burundi; Egypt's Women under Attack; Imagine a World. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired May 19, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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HALA GORANI, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: stranded at sea and unwanted.

Why are thousands of migrants fleeing Myanmar being left to die? A Malaysian opposition MP tells me it's atrocious.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is really a challenge whereby the most vulnerable community region is now seeking help and it's not just any kind of help;

it's about life and death.

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GORANI: We'll also have reaction from the American State Department.

And later on in the program, a disturbing report reveals sexual attacks in Egypt have surged since the military took power. One of the authors of the

report joins me live.

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GORANI: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani at the CNN Center, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

"Maritime ping-pong with human lives," that's how the International Organization for Migration is describing the plight of thousands of Muslim

Rohingya refugees from Myanmar, who are festering currently on packed boats as Thailand, Myanmar and Indonesia refuse to open their doors.

The IOM and U.N. today are imploring those countries to allow the migrants to disembark. No one knows for sure the scale of the horror, but aid

groups believe there are thousands of refugees adrift at sea, crammed onto an untold number of ships, you can see the desperation painted on the faces

of those aboard there. The boats, lack of food, water are rife with violence the U.N. is saying. And while the scale is astounding, the issue

is nothing new.

In total nearly half a million people have fled Myanmar's refugees, according to the U.N. At home, the Rohingya face malnutrition, persecution

and violence. In fact, the government refuses to even recognize them as citizens. They are stateless.

Opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi long criticized for not speaking out on behalf of this ethnic minority may be changing tack. The AFP is reporting

her party spokesman has called on the government to recognize the Rohingyas' human rights and accept their citizenship in Myanmar.

Foreign ministers from Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand but not Myanmar are meeting tomorrow to address what is a clear humanitarian challenge for the

region and it couldn't come any sooner for my next guest.

Charles Santiago is the chairman of the ASEAN parliamentarians for human rights and he says the response so far has been inhumane and atrocious. He

joined me earlier from the site of tomorrow's might, Kuala Lumpur.

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CHARLES SANTIAGO, MALAYSIAN OPPOSITION MP: This is such a point of clear challenge for ASEAN and its future and the character of the original

organization. ASEAN talks about -- promotes itself as an organization that promotes rule of law, democracy, a sharing and caring society, people tend

to ASEAN. Now is the time to realize that.

Now is the time to build the camp because it is really a challenge whereby the most vulnerable community in the region is now seeking help. And it's

not just any kind of help; it's about life and death.

So the problem, as you mentioned, is a long-term solution because we have a problem with Myanmar and Myanmar does not consider the Rohingya as their

citizens. In fact, they are stateless people, people who have been put in camps, people who have been denied health care, education, the human rate

and therefore they are not in a political situation.

So this has got a short-term impact and a long-term impact. The short-term impact would be to give them some kind of temporary protection, a

humanitarian protection so that they can be safe, they don't die in the seas of the Andaman islands.

The long-term solution would be for ASEAN to put pressure on the Myanmar government to make sure that these people, their particular reforms and

citizenship is given.

But I also think at this time the countries like the United States and China, especially with China, needs to put pressure on the Myanmar's

authorities because these two countries have a lot of sway, political sway with Myanmar. And therefore I think they have to come to help the people

who are now fighting for their lives.

GORANI: Fundamentally this is a regional problem. It originates in Myanmar and my understanding is that Myanmar is not attending this special

meeting in Kuala Lumpur.

How can you get anything done when the main actor is not even present?

And why are they not attending?

SANTIAGO: Well, that's the question you have to ask the Myanmar government. But clearly as is pointed out elsewhere, there is a -- it's

quite simple, that the country where the source of the problem lies, but not be coming for this meeting and therefore the effectiveness of a long-

term solution will be in question.

However, I think this meeting tomorrow and the meeting that will take place in Bangkok next week will look at short-term solutions to protect the --

and ensure that the people on the boats -- I believe are 2,000 or 3,000 -- will not die. This is the short-term (INAUDIBLE).

GORANI: Now, Charles Santiago, you are a member of parliament in Malaysia from the opposition.

So the current government, when asked to comment on this, essentially said we are aware this is a humanitarian disaster; we will not tolerate any sort

of human trafficking, not really commenting on potential solutions.

Do you think your government is doing enough here?

SANTIAGO: Well, I think our government can do more. One, our government can put lots of pressure at the chair of the ASEAN for 2015, can put

pressure on Myanmar; number two, to get the region to sign on to an anti- trafficking declaration, which is binding and more importantly Malaysia at this moment can actually allow the Rohingyas to land in Malaysia and to

provide them the shelter. And therefore Malaysia should lead by example. That's the challenge for Malaysia.

And I hope our prime minister in the meeting tomorrow will see such a resolution.

GORANI: Charles Santiago, thank you very much for joining us today. We appreciate your time.

SANTIAGO: Thank you for talking to me.

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GORANI: Well, just a few short years ago, Myanmar was celebrated by the U.S. and the West for its dramatic democratic reforms. But the treatment

of the Rohingya apparently never changed. Here now with the perspective from Washington is the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy,

Human Rights and Labor, Tom Malinowski.

Thanks for being with us, sir.

First of all, Charles Santiago, the opposition member of parliament from Malaysia said the U.S. is a country that should pressure Myanmar more than

they are to change the way they treat this particular ethnic and religious minority.

Do you agree?

TOM MALINOWSKI, U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: We certainly have been trying to do that. I think first and foremost we need to focus on the fact

that there are thousands of people still on the sea in need of immediate rescue and so we are in constant and direct contact with the main

governments concerned right now; chiefly Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand, urging them to work together to conduct search and rescue, to allow these

people to land on their shores. We have offered them assistance in that effort.

So the first -- our first responsibility here is to save lives and that's something that has to be done in the coming days and hours.

In the longer run, yes, the biggest challenge here is to get at the root cause of this crisis and that is the treatment of the Rohingya population

inside Myanmar. And that's been a subject of many conversations and much consternation as you well know over the last couple of years.

GORANI: So what response have you gotten from Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand, are they telling you the U.S. government that they will make an

effort and take these desperate migrants in?

MALINOWSKI: Well, I think especially in the last couple of days, we have received more positive responses; the government of Indonesia in the last

couple of days has both in conversations with us and publicly committed to doing its part. They have taken several hundred more people allowed them

to land.

I think none of these countries wants to bear the burden alone and that's completely understandable. They didn't create this crisis. Many of them

have taken Malaysia has taken thousands of Rohingyas in the past. And I think the key is ensuring that they can work together, coordinate the

efforts so that no one country bears the burden alone.

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GORANI: I was going to say, what about -- I'm sorry to interrupt -- what about Myanmar here? I mean, asking countries in the region to take these

refugees, these desperate migrants in, sure, it is a short-term solution but in the end the core problem lies with Myanmar here, which is not even

taking part in the meeting in Kuala Lumpur tomorrow to address the crisis.

MALINOWSKI: Well, the meeting tomorrow is frankly about immediate humanitarian rescue and making sure the countries that are in a position to

do that because these people are close to their shores, are working together. So that's the most important thing there.

In terms of Myanmar, we have urged -- and again, this is very urgent -- that the government of Myanmar act to try to save what may still be several

thousand people who are just embarked, who are still on boats, very close to the shores of Rakhine state.

So again, that's something very immediate. But in that medium to longer run, absolutely. The -- what needs to change here is the Rohingya need to

feel welcome in the country of their birth, in the country of their parents' birth, of their grandparents' birth. They need to be treated as

citizens with dignity and with human rights.

GORANI: So those needs are widely acknowledged and I don't think anybody would disagree with you on that.

But what can the U.S. do? How far is the U.S. willing to go to put pressure on Myanmar for that to happen?

MALINOWSKI: Well, I think, as you have seen from all of our interactions with Myanmar, including those that President Obama had when he was last in

the country, this is the first issue on our agenda with that country.

What can we do? We have pushed a lot of humanitarian assistance into Rakhine state to try to alleviate conditions there. We have urged a

process for giving these people citizenship, which is their right as people who have been born in that country.

And I think the government of Myanmar knows that its relationship with the international community is never going to be completely right and normal as

long as this crisis continues.

And now it's clear that it is a regional crisis. It's not just a human rights crisis inside Myanmar. It's something that is affecting all of this

countries neighbors. And so it's important that the community of ASEAN come together and try to find a solution to this problem.

GORANI: Mr. Malinowski, a few years ago, the United States touted Myanmar as an example of a successful transition from a dictatorship to a more

open, democratic system.

Would the U.S. still call Myanmar a success story today?

MALINOWSKI: I think we have always see Myanmar as a potential success story. It was an absolute military dictatorship a few years ago and it is

now undergoing an extremely fragile and utterly incomplete transition to democracy. I don't think we ever suggested otherwise. It's a transition

that is worth support because, if it succeeds, it will be a historic, positive development. But it is not there yet.

GORANI: A quick last question on Burundi, I know you met with the president of Burundi, whose decision to seek a third term has essentially

led to riots, violence, yet more desperate from refugees crossing the border into neighboring countries.

What did you tell him?

And is the United States worried that here we have yet again a scenario that will lead to ethnic and sectarian violence?

MALINOWSKI: Yes, I told him that the very fragile peace in Burundi that has held there for the last 15 years has held only because of the Arusha

accords, which is the agreement that brought the various parties in the country together. And those accords mandate a two-term limit for the

president so that one person does not have power concentrated in his person forever.

And I urged him to respect the Arusha accords. I urged him not to let this situation get past the point of no return. And we very much fear that that

is happening right now. But we have been delivering very, very clear messages to him and to his supporters. And I think he has been hearing

that very importantly in the last few days from leaders all across Africa, who are just as alarmed as we are.

GORANI: Do you think he'll withdraw?

Do you think he'll reconsider his decision to run again?

MALINOWSKI: I hope so. I think that is by far the best solution to this problem. In the short run, we have urged him to rein in some of these

militia groups that are terrorizing the population to allow radio and other media to go on air and to be in dialogue with his opposition, not to try to

equate all these young people who are out there, calling for respect for the law in Burundi, with terrorists, as he recently did or with the people

who tried to stage a coup against him a few days ago.

These are people who love their country, want their country to be at peace and want the law and international obligations of this country respected.

And he should listen to them.

GORANI: All right. Well, we'll be following that story as well because yet again, another scenario that seems very familiar unfolding in Burundi.

Tom Malinowski, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights, joining us from Washington, thank you very much, sir, for your time.

Just ahead, we go to where the rights of half of the population are under attack in Egypt. A new report highlights the horrors that the country's

women are facing. I'll speak to one of its authors after this.

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GORANI: Welcome back to the program.

The number of sexual attacks in Egypt has surged since the military took power in 2013. That is the finding of a shocking new report from the

International Federation for Human Rights, which says security forces are raping and assaulting people in detention to stifle civil society and

silence the opposition.

Here one victim describes her ordeal at the hands of police in December of 2013 and be warned, some viewers may find this upsetting. We've had her

account voiced by a CNN producer. We cannot independently verify her story.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): In the van, they insulted me and beat me so much that I could no longer stand up. The officer from the start got

into the van and said to me, "Come here. I'm going to show you if I'm a man."

He sexually assaulted me. The soldiers laughed. And then he raped me completely. I was paralyzed. I started to vomit blood. My life is

ruined. I'm afraid of my son, my husband and even my father.

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GORANI: Katherine Booth is from the International Federation for Human Rights and she helped write the report and she joins me now from Paris.

Tell us about this, what you call a surge in sexual attacks.

Why is it going on, based on the accounts you've been able to compile and report?

KATHERINE BOOTH, INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS: OK, I just lost you there. I didn't hear your question.

Katherine Booth, can you hear me now?

BOOTH: I can, yes.

GORANI: You talk about in your report a surge in sexual attacks in Egypt, based on the accounts you've been able to compile.

Why is this happening in the country now?

BOOTH: Yes. What we've seen is since the resume of military power in July 2013 a surge in sexual violence committed by state actors; that is to say

the police, the military and national security intelligence.

We've documented many testimonies of this sexual violence by many victims, yes, women but also men, students, sexual minorities; a particularly

violent campaign has been orchestrated against LGBT individuals.

And we've concluded that this is part of the overall repression to which the Egyptian authorities are subjecting civil society. Sexual violence

appears to be used as a tool of repression to humiliate, destroy and annihilate and to exert state control.

GORANI: Are the alleged crimes being reported? Is anyone being punished? Or is this something that's going on with impunity?

BOOTH: Well, one of the difficulties currently is that Egyptian civil society is subject to such heavy crackdown that those who were able to

provided support to victims and document crimes of sexual violence are increasingly unable to do so. They've be funding cutoff. They're

threatened with reprisals, including judicial proceedings if they speak out.

And so it's extremely difficult to document these crimes. Most victims don't dare to report such crimes to the justice system. You can see that

in this particular situation with the actors of the justice system themselves being responsible for perpetrating the crimes, it's extremely

difficult for victims to file complaints.

But there have been complaints filed. There have been numerous allegations and what we're seeing is complete impunity for the perpetrators.

GORANI: Is it based on the accounts that you've heard that you've been able to record for this report?

Are the perpetrators acting independently or on orders from higher-ranking officials?

BOOTH: So let me just talk about the different types of violence that we're observing because that's important in answering your question. We

have documented rape, attempted rape, various forms of sexualized torture, including electrocution of genitalia, rape with objects and also types of

institutionalized violence in the form of virginity tests and forced anal examinations to which all those accused of debauchery, which is the offense

used to prosecute those accused of engaging in homosexual activity are subjected to these forced anal examinations.

So virginity tests and forced anal examinations, a form of torture under international law, are being practiced as part of the very legal system

which is dealing with detainees.

In terms of the organization of these crimes, we have to conclude from the extent to which they're being perpetrated, the widespread nature of these

crimes, not only in particular detention centers or particular police stations, but across the country in many different areas where we were able

to collect testimony, the similarity of the methods used, including the methods used for sexualized torture, we would conclude alongside that the

fact that the perpetrators are benefiting from total impunity. So there's no action taken to ensure that these people are held to account or to do

anything to prevent these crimes taking place, we would have to conclude that these crimes form part of an overall strategy of repression.

GORANI: All right. Katherine Booth, the director of the Women's Rights Office at the International Federation for Human Rights, thank you very

much for speaking to us from Paris this evening.

Women under threat in Egypt after a break we imagine a world with another group facing persecution. "Charlie Hebdo" loses one of its best pair of

hands and cartoonists the world over. They face losing much more. We'll explain, next.

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GORANI: And finally tonight imagine a world where satire is sedition and a drawing can lead to disaster. It's a world well known to "Charlie Hebdo"

cartoonist Luz, famous and infamous for depicting the Prophet Muhammad and making the now iconic "Tout est pardonne" cover you see there behind me.

Luz today announced his departure from the magazine that he helped put on the map. The fate of his 12 fallen comrades, quote, "too much to bear,"

while working at the magazine that they loved. It's a stark reminder of the January shooting and couldn't be more poignantly timed as the Committee

to Protect Journalists released a report, decrying a world toxic to cartoonists.

On Wednesday, the Malaysian artist, Zunar, goes on trial after his cartoons critiqued Prime Minister Najib Razak's government. Charged with sedition,

Zunar faces more than 40 years in prison if found guilty. It's not the only case where a picture can get you in trouble. Across the globe

cartoonists face persecution or are forced through a legal gantlet in order to exercise free speech.

But hope remains as fans the world over draw attention to the work of these cartoonists. So the work of people like Luz won't be forgotten.

That's going to do it for the program tonight. You can always follow me on Facebook and Twitter, @halagorani. Thanks for watching and goodbye from

the CNN Center.

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