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Blatter Exits but FIFA is Far from Reformed; Bringing Home the Burdens of War; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 03, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:10] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: FIFA's legal woes continue as Interpol now issues red alerts for the arrests of

six officials, and Sepp Blatter is investigated by the FBI. I'm joined by CNN's top legal mind, Jeffrey Toobin.

Plus: fighting for their country on the front lines and fighting for equality at the same time, the many challenges facing America's military

servicewomen.

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BRIGADIER GENERAL LOREE SUTTON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): And there's no one who cares more about getting this right than the services. They know it -- 15

percent of our forces -- they can't do what we're doing today without women.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): And see how the amazing American artist, Kehinde Wiley, is building bridges past and present.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York. And the long rise and quick fall of Sepp

Blatter simply removed the top of the pyramid that investigators say reeks of corruption.

As U.S. authorities now confirm, they are investigating Blatter himself. Interpol issues red notices today for six current and former FIFA

executives indicted and wanted by the U.S. attorney general.

So can FIFA be reformed from within?

The head of Transparency International says, quote, "FIFA has overseen a sordid empire of corruption. Now is the time for reform; there should be

no turning back, no obstacles, nothing that should any longer hang over this beautiful game."

Will Russia and Qatar, will they see their bids stand or will the whole bidding process have to start all over again?

So many questions. And joining me now on the set is CNN's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who's been following the FBI's investigation

closely and also happens to be a huge soccer fan.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: All true.

AMANPOUR: So very firstly, Sepp Blatter now, is this investigation seriously going to -- obviously they're going to question him. But can he

face charges, do you think?

TOOBIN: Not obviously that they're going to question him because if Sepp Blatter gets the advice of any good lawyer in the United States, he will

certainly be told don't say anything at all, because one thing that is clear, it was clear from Attorney General Loretta Lynch's famous press

conference; it is clear from how this investigation is unfolding, that Sepp Blatter has a big target on his back. He is under investigation to be

criminally prosecuted. There's not a doubt in the world about that.

And most lawyers tell a person in that position don't say anything.

AMANPOUR: So that's for the investigation here. The Swiss authorities have already said that he's not a target of their investigation. But let's

now move to the idea as Transparency International and everybody's calling the actual reform of FIFA from within.

First and foremost, Sepp Blatter is probably going to be there for the better part of the next year, before there's a, you know, completed new

election process. We have spoken in the past to Alexandra Wrage, who was on the original investigating committee and resigned in protest. This is

what she said to us about why she resigned.

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ALEXANDRA WRAGE, FORMER FIFA GOVERNANCE ADVISER: It certainly appears to the public that FIFA is a power unto itself and that it proceeds without

any real regard to the reputational damage that it's suffering.

And it seems answerable, really, to no one.

We found out fairly quickly -- or at least it was my impression fairly quickly -- that they wanted to cherry-pick through our recommendations.

So we either needed to do much more work, which wasn't going to be possible and wasn't supported by FIFA, or we were at risk of just being window

dressing.

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AMANPOUR: So explaining the hurdles trying to reform and now Sepp Blatter himself is saying I'm staying and I'm going to conduct reform.

How realistic is that?

TOOBIN: It's preposterous. Let me give you an example of something that could be done tomorrow that would be a signal of reform.

If FIFA hired Michael Garcia, former federal prosecutor here in New York, to do a major investigation of the bidding process for the World Cup, he

did a very lengthy report which FIFA has refused to release to the public.

If they want to show that they've changed, tomorrow they could release Michael Garcia's report. Don't hold your breath.

AMANPOUR: So moving on to the other huge part of this investigation and that is whether Russia and Qatar bid totally and 100 percent above board.

We spoke to the emir of Qatar; we had an exclusive interview with him when all of this was breaking in September. This is what he said to us and

already the Qataris have said this will not affect their preparations for the 2022.

[14:05:10] Let's look at what he told us a few months ago.

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SHEIKH HAMAD BIN KHALIFA AL THANI, EMIR OF QATAR: . people should understand that Qatar had the best bid and Qatar will provide and will do

one of the best World Cups in history. And I'm sure about that.

And I hope that this will happen.and people don't want to accept, don't want to realize that a small country, Arab Muslim country, can host a big

event like that.

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AMANPOUR: So is it about sour grapes? Or do you think there's going to be a rebidding process for the 2022?

TOOBIN: Well, that will be, I think, the big question for the new head of FIFA. My sense is that the Russia World Cup is too soon, given the fact

that you have to build stadiums. I mean, it is too soon, really, to -- too soon before the Russia World Cup to change it.

But the combination of the fact that 2022, which is when the World Cup is supposed to take place in FIFA, is really quite a few years off, combined

with the frank absurdity of holding the World Cup there, that I think every football fan in the world knows a tiny country, where it's so hot at the

time the World Cup is usually played, where they're thinking about moving it to the middle of the professional seasons, there are so many problems

with holding the -- and the fact that the bid process is -- was very questionable to say the least. I think it is not at all clear that --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Not to mention, of course, the human rights issues with the laborers and the builders.

But what about the money in FIFA?

Let's just put up some of these unbelievable statistics, that FIFA has had a $338 million net profit over the last four years, that it has $1.5

billion in reserves and it's meant to be a non-profit.

What is happening with all that money? How does one clean up an organization that has so much?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, there are -- the world is full of large organizations that are fairly transparent. I think most people believe

that an American corporation under the rules of the Securities and Exchange Commission, most people understand where the money comes from and where it

goes.

FIFA operates by its own rules. And I think one player in all of this that has not gotten enough attention, the reason FIFA is so rich is that

McDonald's and Coca-Cola and Nike have been shoveling billions, not millions, billions of dollars into their coffers without insisting on any

kind of accountability and when are they going to insist on it?

AMANPOUR: Well, that's a very good question. Prince William, head of the British Football Association, called on the sponsors to do their part for

reform.

Very, very briefly, where do you see the next shoe dropping in this whole investigation, this whole FIFA process?

TOOBIN: More indictments, more people will be charge. I don't know if Sepp Blatter will be charged, but certainly other people will be charged.

And the way criminal investigates work is they flip people. They get people on the lower levels to talk about people higher up. And the target

is clearly Sepp Blatter at this point.

AMANPOUR: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much. This is an endlessly important issue because it affects so many people around the world.

And of course FIFA's mixed legacy is well-known in Brazil. The so-called World Cup bounce seemed to be rebounding now since Brazil spent $3 billion

on stadiums for the 2014 championship there. Now at least half of them -- half of those stadiums are suffering financial difficulties.

For instance, the $900 million stadium in the capital, Brasilia, is now a space for government offices and a parking lot for the city's buses.

While many other stadiums are now a blight on Brazil's landscape.

And after a break, we turn to a blight on America's military landscape, American servicewomen who are sent out to fight being abandoned to a macho

culture that dominates their own ranks. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

As more and more Americans wake up to news of ISIS marching on to more and more victories and also news of the disaster that faces the West's ISIS

policy, a new CNN poll shows that 61 percent think the fight is going badly. But more than half this country doesn't want to send U.S. ground

forces back into combat.

And indeed, nearly 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan have taken an enormous toll on America's fighting men and women, perhaps especially on

the women. My next guest, Brigadier General Dr. Loree Sutton served for 20 years. She was also the U.S. Army's top psychiatrist. And now she heads

the New York Mayor's Office for Veteran Affairs. She joined me this week here in the studio.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program and thank you for joining me.

SUTTON: Thank you so much.

AMANPOUR: So many, many million Americans have fought, some in many, many tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan.

From your perspective, seeing the returning veterans, how has it affected them?

SUTTON: Well, you know, war affects everyone, no question. And our returning veterans are coming back with strengths, with a global

perspective, with experiences that we've really never needed more than we need right now in our country. They also have struggles.

And so what we're doing here in New York City is we're acknowledging both. We're working to prevent homelessness, also to be able to bring mental

health services into the fore as well as to help connect veterans and their families with jobs.

AMANPOUR: Dou yourself served, particularly during the first Gulf War. It is extraordinary that, back in the first Gulf War, perhaps 7 percent of the

servicepeople were women and now this time around it's gone up to 15 percent.

But at the same time, so has the trauma that women particularly experience skyrocketed. Tell me a little bit about what you're hearing from women.

SUTTON: Yes. The percentage of women has gone up and that makes a huge difference. And yet the social isolation -- I think that's the biggest

factor -- you know, men are no more patriotic than women. We all, when we raise our hands, we want to be part of something that's bigger than

ourselves.

Ironically, for women, it's more difficult for them to feel that they fully belong and are part of that; for men, they've been a part of that. But

they tend to have a much more difficult time coming back to civilian life precisely because they've been part of it.

AMANPOUR: Let me read some of the things that some of these women servicepeople have been saying to "The New York Times."

For instance, Diane Kramer, who was deployed overseas five times, she has said, quote, "My male counterparts were deemed competent and capable until

they proved otherwise, where on the other hand it was often assumed that I was incompetent until I proved I was not."

Now that's not just a statement. It also apparently leads to huge numbers of women, 38 percent apparently, report depression. I mean, there's a huge

spike in suicides as well. You know, apparently, you know, for female soldiers, it tripled during deployment. And much higher, both these rates,

than for men.

SUTTON: That is very disturbing data. And I think it really does point back to the need for us to understand what happens at the team level, at

the unit level from a systems perspective. The best researchers in the world are looking at this data. And as one of the other women veterans

that I know has commented on it, that says, you know, deployment's hard for everyone. But there are 1,000 little things that make it more difficult

for a woman because we're in a man's world.

[14:15:04] AMANPOUR: Would you say that's quite similar to women in all sorts of professions that are also traditionally a man's world?

Or is it more acute in the military?

SUTTON: I think it is more acute in the military in the sense that if I'm in the civilian world and I'm having difficulty at work, I have a choice.

I can quit my job. I can go do something else. It would difficult, perhaps stressful, anxiety-producing. But if I'm deployed and I know that

things seems as dangerous and as risky inside the wire as they do outside the wire, that introduces a whole different level of threat. And I think

that's what so many women have really reported from their experiences.

AMANPOUR: And it's not just this kind of threat, but threat of a sexual nature as well. And women have been saying for a long, long time -- and I

know you've been working with Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York to try to get proper prosecutions for those who have abused and sexually assaulted

women in the military.

Look at what this one woman says, Vanessa Remus, who was deployed in Iraq.

"At one point," she says, "my supervisor was so concerned that he suggested that I wear my belt backward so that a rapist would have more difficulty

pulling down my pants."

These are people who are her colleagues and who are in her unit or her superiors.

SUTTON: And I would say that just that very comment, while it is well meaning and it's meant to protect her and to intervene, it illustrates a

failure of leadership to begin with because once we sort of corrode or allow that family sense, that protective belonging to corrode and once we

start viewing soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines as women soldiers versus men soldiers or different nationalities or -- whatever the "other" is,

we've started to have a breakdown in that which is most protective.

AMANPOUR: But it also obviously must affect the efficacy of the joint mission.

SUTTON: Absolutely. This has its impact from the individual level, the small group, the team and mission level and much more broadly to our

national security. And there's no one who cares more about getting this right than the services. They know it -- 15 percent of our forces -- they

can't do what we're doing today without women.

AMANPOUR: Well, to that end, let me play you a bit of an interview that I did with an Air Force officer, who talked to me also about sexual assault

and really was begging for a change of culture from the very top. Let's listen.

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SGT. JENNIFER SMITH, USAF: The most traumatic thing that has happened to me was when I was in Iraq, in Balad. I was assaulted by an Army personnel.

And he basically just grabbed me and threw me up against the wall.

We've had their tolerance and we've had different trainings and different types of talks about this type of thing since I have been in, for 17 years.

So the problem is cultural.

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AMANPOUR: How does one change the culture?

And if these kinds of people who've suffered these kinds of assaults cannot depend on an independent prosecution, how is it ever going to change?

SUTTON: Well, what's the best way to change somebody's attitude? It's through changing their experience. That's where it comes back to

leadership. Yes, mental health issues, as you mentioned, depression, post- traumatic stress, those are all real. And we have systems in place to help support those.

But that can't be where hope and healing and mission success starts. It's got to be within the unit, within that family, within that team that looks

first and foremost, mission first, never quit, never accept defeat and never leave a fallen comrade. That's the strongest medicine of all.

AMANPOUR: A lot for us to think about. Thank you very much indeed, Brigadier General Dr. Loree Sutton, thanks for joining us.

SUTTON: Thank you.

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AMANPOUR: And as she says, never give up, trying to adapt, as the U.S. military must, to the increasing number of fighting women in the forces

now.

And after a break, a leading American artist imagines a world of painterly symmetry between the present and the past. The incredible work of Kehinde

Wiley -- that's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where the classic art pieces of the past are completely reimagined with modern and diverse twist,

like this.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): The famous 1800 portrait of Napoleon crossing the Alps becomes this, bright colors, camouflage pants and Timberland boots.

Or this portrait of a couple from the 1600s becomes this, two modern young men in T-shirts and casual pants.

It all springs from the vivid imagination of the popular American artist Kehinde Wiley, challenging the viewer to think deeply about the dynamics of

power and race and the world is taking note.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has awarded Wiley the Medal of Art just this past January and his studios are all over the globe, including one

here in Brooklyn and his latest exhibit is touring museums across the United States.

Kehinde Wiley, welcome to the program.

KEHINDE WILEY, ARTIST: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So of all those pictures which are really amazing and fabulous, the one of Napoleon crossing the Alps just got me because when I was a

little girl I had a book on horses and guess what, that was in that book.

And here I see you making it into a modern masterpiece.

WILEY: That's right.

AMANPOUR: What's your point? What's the objective of putting these modern faces in this old art?

WILEY: Well, art is about communicating power and it's been that way for hundreds of years. Artists have been very good at working for the church

and for the state, communicating the aspirations of a society. What I choose to do is to take people who happen to look like me, black and brown

people all over the world increasingly and to allow them to occupy that field of power.

AMANPOUR: You famously say -- and it's written about how you started -- that one of the key turning points was finding a mug shot on the ground in

L.A. where you grew up. And that created this whole sort of genre that you have developed. Tell me about the mug shot and where it's led you.

WILEY: Right. It was a day in Harlem. I remember it like it was yesterday, walking down the street and here's this crumpled piece of paper

and on it is a very sympathetic image of this young man and it turns out to be a mug shot photo. And it got me thinking about mug shots certainly but

also mug shots as a type of portraiture.

What is portraiture? It's choice. It's the ability to position your body in the world for the world to celebrate you on your own terms. The mug

shot, of course, removes all of that power, all that control. And it got me also thinking about the role of an artist within society.

What can I do to start a broader conversation about presence and imminence and the desire to be seen as respected and beautiful in this world?

AMANPOUR: Yes. I mistook. I said L.A., but it was Harlem where you found it.

But you've also said about this idea of young black people who get arrested and mug shotted (sic), "I know how young black men are seen. They're boys.

They're scared little boys oftentimes. I was one of them. I was completely afraid of the LAPD.

So your history also obviously informs what you're doing and what you're trying to communicate.

[14:25:01] WILEY: This is something that cannot be taken for granted. The sense in which the humanity of the people in my paintings is what I'm

about. I'm about looking at each of those perceived menacing black men that you see in the streets all over the place, people that you oftentimes

will walk past without assuming that they have the same humanity, fears that we all do.

There is nothing menacing when you happen to walk through the world in this body. I understand blackness from the inside out. Why my goal is is to

allow the world to see the humanity that I know personally to be the truth.

AMANPOUR: And you've also said that you know, you are putting brown and black faces into a world of art that's only ever really had white faces and

also people have said that actually your work should startle. It should startle anyone, regardless of race, creed or color.

WILEY: Well, the world's a scary place. The role of an artist is to look at that world as it is and to imagine alternative possibilities but also to

heighten what actually is.

What can I do as an artist that hasn't already been done before? Look closer.

My job is to walk through the streets, find someone who's minding their own business, trying to get to work, stopping them. The next thing you know,

they're hanging on a great museum throughout the world and allows us to slow down and to say yes to these people, yes to these experiences, yes to

these stories.

AMANPOUR: And a lot of what you're showing also is these people but wearing very hip clothes, you are not ashamed and shy of the brand. In

fact, you celebrate the brand. And even in a society -- I mean, I remember years ago in New York, people were getting killed and in fights for

shearling jackets and for Trainers.

WILEY: That's right.

AMANPOUR: And yet you're celebrating that.

WILEY: Well, what I'm doing is I'm looking at fashion as culture, fashion as serious business, where people will oftentimes dress themselves as a

form of armor. Fashion is armor insomuch as it says something about who we are in the world. It also protects us a bit. My work tries to concentrate

on fashion as a conceptual color. It's yet another color in my palette, to tell a story.

AMANPOUR: And these are huge paintings. I mean, I've even seen you on a horse actually doing the paintings. They're all over the United States.

You also have studios all over the world.

Are you surprised by this amazing success?

WILEY: I am. I am. Every day I count my blessings. There's something to be said about the courage to just throw yourself into this type of work.

I've never thought in a million years that I'd be here having the success that I do. But it says something great about America and about New York

City that you can have a dream like this. You can put one foot in front of the other and people will say yes to what you're up to.

AMANPOUR: And they have indeed.

Kehinde Wiley, thank you so much for joining me here in the studio.

WILEY: Thank you. It's been my pleasure.

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see our whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.

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