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Sudan's President Evades Arrest; Thousands of Syrians Cross Turkish Border; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 15, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: celebrations in Sudan as President al-Bashir escapes yet another chance to arrest him for

war crimes and genocide at an African Union summit.

So will there ever be justice? We go to the International Criminal Court.

Also ahead a special CNN series on what drives desperate migrants across the sea. Tonight, Egypt's missing children, fleeing to afford a better

life for their families.

And the women's World Cup on Astroturf, not grass? It's pulling in record viewers and the U.S. star Brandi Chastain makes a plea.

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BRANDI CHASTAIN, RETIRED PROFESSIONAL AMERICAN SOCCER PLAYER: I don't think we need to have the argument is it good enough anymore. It is good

enough and let's get behind it the way you get behind men's football.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

A defiant Omar al-Bashir is back in Khartoum, celebrating his narrow escape from South Africa and the apparently not-so-long arm of the law. The

Sudanese president beat a hasty retreat in his presidential jet earlier this morning, moments after a court order had barred him from leaving the

country where he'd been attending an African Union summit.

The ICC has been trying to bring Sudan's president to justice since 2009 for his role in the Darfur genocide, which left 300,000 people dead. He's

been indicted on five counts of crimes against humanity, three counts of genocide, two counts of war crimes. Al-Bashir, we already know, doesn't

take charges seriously. In fact, he even danced in the street when he first learned of them.

Back then, I asked Sudan's ambassador to the United Nations if the president would ever be handed over.

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AMANPOUR: Ambassador, are you saying there is no chance that Sudan will comply with the ICC warrant?

ABDALMAHMOOD ABDALHALEEM MOHAMAD, SUDANESE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Never. That would never happen.

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AMANPOUR: That was many years ago and today we must ask, will the International Criminal Court ever get him? Joining me now from The Hague

is James Stewart. He's the deputy prosecutor of the ICC.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, Mr. Stewart.

What do you say tonight to the South African government? They have flagrantly disregarded the ICC mandate.

JAMES STEWART, DEPUTY PROSECUTOR, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT: Well, it's not a cause for celebration, clearly. We're disappointed by the failure of

the South African government to live up to what we say were its clear obligations to arrest President al-Bashir.

AMANPOUR: What about what they're saying now in Khartoum? You heard what the former Sudanese ambassador to the U.N. told me all those years ago,

when he was first indicted, that actually he will never be brought to justice.

I mean, isn't this a bad day for the ICC?

I don't think it is a bad day for the ICC. The reaction internationally, the anger, if you will, about what has happened, I believe actually

strengthens the position of the court. It is clear from what happened over the last few days and especially today in the court in South Africa that an

ICC warrant of arrest actually means something.

President Bashir did not leave in quite the way I expect he thought he would and certainly not in the way he arrived. It really does underscore,

however, the need for full cooperation by states' parties to the wrong statute and member states of the United Nations.

But I don't think that it is a setback for the court or a bad day for the court in that sense. It is a bad day, of course, for international

criminal justice. We can only hope for a better day.

AMANPOUR: Well, if it's not a bad day, it's certainly a confusing day because we've been looking at the Rome statute and there does seem to be

some discrepancy. Let me just read what some of these paragraphs say.

For instance, Article 98 says, "The court may of the proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested state to act

inconsistently with its obligations under the international law with respect to the state or diplomatic immunity of a person."

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So that's legalese, it seems to us, for, OK, we have a warrant; you are meant to fulfill it. But if I choose not to negate somebody's immunity, I

don't have to, which is clearly what President Zuma has decided how to read this.

STEWART: Well, first of all, I think it'll be interesting to read the reasons of the high court in Gauteng in South Africa, because they clearly

felt that it was wrong of the government not to arrest and transfer President al-Bashir. But the very simple answer to the issue that you've

raised is this: the Security Council resolution referring the situation in Darfur, Sudan, to the prosecutor of the ICC lifted the immunities which

President al-Bashir would enjoy otherwise. And so he doesn't have those immunities in relation to the matters before the ICC and in our view, it

was absolutely clear that there was no barrier whatsoever to South Africa fulfilling its obligations under their own statute. There are no

inconsistencies within international law or within the statute to prevent that happening.

AMANPOUR: So if it's --

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STEWART: And this has been a matter of discussion and debate before the pretrial chambers of the ICC and from as long ago as April of 2014, the

decision is clear. And the pretrial chamber in this matter also made it very clear to the representatives of the government of South Africa what

the position was.

So there was no ambiguity in our view whatsoever.

AMANPOUR: So in other words, if President Bashir was to be invited to yet another African Union summit in South Africa or anywhere in Africa or

anywhere else, the head of state, the government, is obligated under this statute, under the ICC rules, to actually arrest them?

STEWART: That's right.

AMANPOUR: Well, what are you going to do next about Bashir? Because -- I mean, let's face it . There are many people who are really, really upset.

Mukesh Kapila, who's a professor of global health and humanitarian affairs and who has worked extensively in Darfur, sent out a pretty strong tweet

today, saying, "Would Hitler have been given diplomatic immunity as head of state? Why should genocide indicted Bashir be let go by South Africa? "

What do you say to the government and to the president of South Africa today?

STEWART: Well, I am not going to address the government and the president of South Africa directly. But I will say that the kind of comment that you

have cited really does underscore what a very bad move it was, one could say, for the South African government to fail to live up to its

obligations, which, in our view, are absolutely clear.

Those -- that's the view of our judges at the ICC and obviously it's the view of the judges in Pretoria and clearly around the world. There are

states parties to the wrong statute, friendly states such as the United States, for example, and interested persons such as the person you cited,

who feel very strongly that what happened today should not have happened. And of course we agree.

AMANPOUR: OK. What do you then say to the government of South Africa? We've already heard ministers and others saying that not only is the ICC

biased and unfair, most if not all the indictees are Africans, but that it is not relevant anymore and it's passed its sell-by date. This is of no

use to global justice anymore.

Is the word coming out of some quarters in South Africa?

STEWART: Well, I think those who may say that, I think, forget that international criminal justice itself, particularly in the guise of a

permanent institution like the International Criminal Court, is in its relative infancy. And the fact that the ICC does not have a universal

jurisdiction is not the fault of the court. It really is a matter for the international community to address.

There are 123 member states of their own statute, states parties to their own statute. And of course we encourage other states to join. Now South

Africa is a state party and has been a very strong supporter of the ICC, which is not surprising, given South Africa's history.

But we serve African victims and at this stage in the court's life, all of our active investigations and prosecutions concern African situations.

Most of these have been referred to us by African states themselves, who have wanted the ICC to become involved. As far as I'm concerned, the ICC

is an African court.

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Inevitably the way the world is, we will be leaving Africa. We'll be going out of Africa. It's just inevitable. But we will never abandon Africa.

AMANPOUR: All right. James Stewart, deputy prosecutor at the ICC, thank you very much for joining us today.

STEWART: Thank you, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And it is not just bad governance in Sudan but right across the continent, which is fueling the migrant crisis across the Mediterranean.

As people try to get away to a better life.

And after a break, we turn to the most vulnerable among them, the story of children smuggling across the sea. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now it has been called the greatest mass movement of people since the Second World War and today another few thousand refugees trickled into

Turkey, still escaping the ongoing war in Syria. Europe is at odds over what to do with all these migrants, with some outright refusing entry. The

U.N. human rights chief, Prince Zeid Ra'ad Zeid Al-Hussein fired back today, saying, "These are people with the same human rights as all of us."

And he reminded the world of the value that migrants can bring, like Albert Einstein, quote, "A bundle of belongings isn't the only thing a refugee

brings to his new country." That was a poster that the UNHCR put up years ago.

And today we start an exclusive investigation into the modern-day migrants crossing the high seas. And we begin in Egypt, where CNN traced the route

traveled by thousands of children from small coastal villages all the way to Sicily and then onto Rome, where their reception was nothing like what

they'd expected.

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NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sun rising over Egypt's Mediterranean coast. The Nile Delta is home to generations of Egyptian

fishermen, casting out onto the Med. It's also the country's smuggling heartland. Those very same boats loaded up with human cargo, headed for

Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language)

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Some eventually make the journey home. But too many never return.

"My son left on September 6th. Seven days later they told us the ship he was on has sunk."

Mubrahim's (ph) son was 17 when he disappeared. She says smugglers later told her he was crewing one of their ships headed to Italy. She's not

alone. As we spoke to Mubrahim (ph), another mother sits quietly crying, waiting to tell us her story.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He never stole. He never working in smuggling or any of these things. They told him, "Come work for

10 days fishing and come back." And since September and up to this moment, this fire is burning us. We can't eat, drink or rest.

ELBAGIR: A lot of the parents don't want to show their faces but they do want us to show the pictures of their sons. This is Karam (ph). His

mother still doesn't know where he is. He's amongst at least six of the kids from his village that went down on that boat. Their families have

been searching for the last nine months and they still have no idea where these boys are.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Both mothers hope that by telling their stories, someone, somewhere will recognize the boys.

We've been investigating the trafficking of teenagers and boys from Egypt to Italy for several months now, boys forced to work on smuggling ships and

then dumped on the Italian coast, manning the boats bearing illegal migrants.

As we finished up the interviews, news had spread that the next stop on our journey was Sicily. Mothers crowded us in the street with pictures and

documents.

ELBAGIR: It feels like this entire village is --

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ELBAGIR: This --

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ELBAGIR: -- they say that their sons --

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ELBAGIR: -- on these ships, were forced to man these ships and now they say that they've been imprisoned, could be in Sicily.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): But they're not just crewing the boats. They often make up the bulk of the passengers. With the little uncertainty of recent

years has plunged Egypt into economic turmoil. All those who are able, sometimes as young as 9 and 10, are risking the sea crossing to Italy,

sometimes risking jail at the other side.

Smuggling inlets like Burj Mughayzil dot this coastline. Captain Mahmoud (ph) and his ships may have made the journey to Italy many times, smuggling

over boatloads of kids. The parents, he says, are as much to blame as the smugglers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): People here in this village, they're selling their kids. They think, we're 10 and we can't find enough

to eat. When we're nine, we can eat a little better. If we're eight, we can eat a little better still. If two get locked up, better than we all

die together.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): If the smuggled children to make it to Italy and find work there, it could change their entire family's fate. We leave Burj

Mughayzil. There are many more villages along this coast, where parents have stories to tell. But before we arrive at the next one, we receive a

phone call. The families say we're no longer welcome, further evidence perhaps of the smugglers' influence.

There are laws in place to protect vulnerable children here. But we asked the government body tackling this issue, is it enough?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There are families who have lost two children on the sea crossing to Egypt and they still send their last

remaining son. Can you believe it? There has to be zero tolerance under the law for the breakers of this. They tempt parents with an awaiting

paradise.

ELBAGIR: Gazing out across the Med from here it must feel like they're looking towards a promised land, that is just within reach. But for so

many who do make that journey, what they find is hardship and heartbreak. And more children who've carried with them the burden of their families'

dreams -- Nima Elbagir, CNN, Burj Mughayzil, Egypt.

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AMANPOUR: The desperation of families sending their children on the high seas.

And we will bring you the next part of Nima Elbagir's story on this program tomorrow. Here's a look ahead.

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ELBAGIR: This is Sicily's boat graveyard. Each one of these ships carries with it a tale of human misery. They brought with them thousands of

unaccompanied Egyptian children. The lucky ones are brought here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You kiss your mother goodbye, not knowing whether you're ever going to see her again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The human toll of what we call a migrant crisis. We'll have that tomorrow.

But before we take a break, in case you missed it, we want to note that Afghanistan has taken a giant gender leap forward, appointing its first-

ever female supreme court judge in a country that's in dire need of enforcing women's legal rights.

After a break, the woman who soared to world soccer stardom -- that's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine the disgraced FIFA chief, Sepp Blatter, reconsidering his resignation. That's the word on the street in

Zurich. Not only has he presided over an organization which is now under investigation for rampant corruption, but Blatter has also made some real

doozies on matters such as fashion for female players, for instance. Still the women's World Cup is moving through the group stage right now. It's

inspiring passion as well as record viewership. But its stars still earn less in years than what their male counterparts can earn in a single week.

The iconic American player, Brandi Chastain, a former Olympic and World Cup champion who made that euphoric fashion statement of her own back in 1999,

joined me from California to talk about leveling the playing field and making it safer.

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AMANPOUR: Brandi Chastain, welcome to the program.

CHASTAIN: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: I have to ask you, you're in the middle of the women's World Cup.

What is it with Sepp Blatter?

Here he is again, now, indicating that he may actually stay on as FIFA president, that he may find that he has so much support from some areas

that he will reconsider his resignation.

What is your reaction to that?

CHASTAIN: Well, I can understand him wanting to hold onto that position, and so a position of great power and of great respect and it controls

basically all of football around the world.

I don't believe that he is the man going forward that FIFA or the game of football or soccer in this country needs.

AMANPOUR: Obviously women are underrepresented across the FIFA spectrum.

Why doesn't somebody like you run for president?

CHASTAIN: You know, I don't know why there's so few women. I feel because the numbers have shown that many more women are playing, even in this

country, than young -- or girls than boys and the numbers are skyrocketing.

Like this women's World Cup, where we now have eight more teams that have ever played in the World Cup before, we're growing in popularity and a

great amount of support.

So hopefully in the future you will see a female president.

AMANPOUR: Right now the World Cup is being played on Astroturf, on a sort of synthetic rather than real grass. It said that the men would never put

up with it.

Is this something that the women like playing on?

Why do the women have to settle for Astroturf?

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CHASTAIN: Well, number one, I don't think the men settling for it would even be a conversation. They would never have to do it.

In terms of why the women have to put up with it is because FIFA feel it's OK. When the bid went out who wanted to host the World Cup, there weren't

as many countries vying for the right to have it and Canada won.

And in their preparation bid, they said that the fields would be Astroturf. And FIFA didn't stand up to say no. There was a company that said that

they would provide it for free. And it was not accepted.

AMANPOUR: You yourself are very, very committed and passionate about making football -- soccer -- a safer game.

How bad is it for football?

What should we parents know?

CHASTAIN: Well, I think what we need to know as parents -- and I have a young son, 9 years old, who plays and I coach his team -- is that no game

is free of accidents, number one.

In this country, 30 percent of concussions come from heading a soccer ball. And the most vulnerable of the players are the young ones.

And so for me this is -- our new slogan is "No header, no-brainer."

AMANPOUR: What kind of message does it send when the president of FIFA, as many as 11 years ago, suggested that the women's sport would be more

attractive and perhaps attract more TV eyeballs and some more ads if, quote, "they could, for example, have tighter shorts."

CHASTAIN: Well --

(LAUGHTER)

CHASTAIN: -- in terms of the comments from Mr. Blatter, those 11 years ago.

I can't explain that. And I don't want to even attempt to give an excuse for that kind of comment. It's unnecessary. It's unwarranted. It's

unneeded. And it diminishes the strength and power, skill, effort that goes on with these international players -- and every young girl who goes

to the park on the weekend to play or every day they go to training, because what they're doing is as important, is as powerful, is as good as

the young boys and men who play.

AMANPOUR: The disparity in the rewards, et cetera, and the dollars and cents between professional women and professional men is gigantic. And the

women's World Cup is predicted to make $17 million in sponsorship revenue while the men's World Cup of this 2014 made $529 million in sponsorship

revenue.

Any way to narrow that massive gulf? Is it ever going to happen?

CHASTAIN: When you look at women's World Cup, we've shown how much we've grown in such a very short time. So if someone was forward thinking, they

would get on the train right now and say, I'm going to make a big deal out of this because the rest of the world is finally coming around.

So I look forward to meeting that person and saying congratulations on, you know, being courageous.

You know, it's like what Marla Messing did in 1999. She was the president of the World Cup committee and she organized a World Cup that was in huge

stadiums across the United States of America, in traditional American football stadiums. And people were looking at her like you're crazy. This

will never work. You'll never fill those stands.

And sure enough, she and her committee and all of the women's teams that participated in that World Cup did fill those stands because there was

quality on the pitch. And so I don't think we need to have the argument is it good enough anymore. It is good enough and let's get behind it the way

you get behind men's football.

AMANPOUR: Brandi Chastain, thank you very much indeed.

CHASTAIN: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching our redecorated set. And goodbye from London.

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