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European Leaders Work to Avoid Greek Default; NATO Accuses Russia; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired June 23, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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FRED PLEITGEN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: optimism and anger. Greece and the E.U. countries are close to a deal but not everyone likes
it. Greece's economy minister joins me live from Athens.
Plus: strong defense. An exclusive interview with NATO's secretary- general concerned about escalation in Ukraine.
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JENS STOLTENBERG, SECRETARY-GENERAL, NATO: The situation is -- in Ukraine is very serious. And of course this -- obviously for concern when we see
that the cease-fires that violated again and again.
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PLEITGEN: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Fred Pleitgen, sitting in for Christiane tonight. And we have a great program
for you.
The Greek prime minister is back in Athens today as European and IMF creditors consider his country's future.
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ALEXIS TSIPRAS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER (through translator): After all this, I now have the feeling -- to use a phrase used normally by E.U. officials -
- the ball is in the European leaders' court.
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PLEITGEN: It is in their court and in their hands they hold the economic fate of 11 million Greeks and millions more Europeans who, of course, would
be affected if Greece defaulted and were forced to leave the Eurozone.
Greek pensioners descended on Athens today to protest Tsipras' proposed austerity concessions and if the E.U. accept Tsipras' proposed tax
increases and welfare changes, Greece will be saved at least for a few months. But if they reject them, it's hard to see how the country could
avoid a default and how Greeks would avoid suffering even more.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We feel weird. Things are so difficult. We are so exhausted that we wouldn't mind a split as long as
the country gets better at some point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It will be painful unless we make a deal with them. He mustn't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I'm afraid that these proposals will not pass in Greece and all this is happening so that they gain time.
And in the end, we will be here again, only we will be outside the Eurozone.
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PLEITGEN: Now there are some positive signs with some E.U. leaders saying a deal could be close. But it is by no means done just yet. And joining
me live from Athens now is the country's economy minister, Giorgos Stathakis.
And sir, first of all, I have to ask: how imminent do you think this deal is? How confident are you that it will happen? And how confident are you
that you'll be able to sell it at home?
GIORGOS STATHAKIS, GREEK ECONOMY MINISTER: Well, I think that the deal is very close. Obviously there was a very strong positive message last night
from the euro summit. Today and tomorrow there will be the technical details they will put on paper.
Then tomorrow we have Eurogroup and on Friday -- on Thursday, sorry -- there will be another euro summit that will get the deal done. So we are
very optimistic that they will be completed within the next two days.
PLEITGEN: Sir, how are you going to sell this to the Greek people? Because they elected your government because they wanted reprieve from
austerity. They wanted dignity which, of course, is very, very important in Greece.
How are you going to sell this to the unions? How are you going to sell this to pensioners, to taxpayers? Because what you're giving them now is
more pain.
STATHAKIS: Well, our mandate was right from the start, A, keep the country in the euro; B, have a major shift in the economic policy. And I think
that this agreement, there are major shifts compared with the previous program.
And, C, introduce as strong element of social justice and at the same time all this combined, bring the economy back into growth. I think this
agreement is the best we could get under the circumstances to keep up with our promises.
PLEITGEN: But that's actually something that Greek governments in the past have said as well. The Papandreou government talked about the deals that
way; the Samaras government talked about the deals that way. But in the end, they faced protests. And there's already protesters coming out in
Athens today; there were some yesterday.
Do you fear that there could be backlash?
STATHAKIS: No, I think that the deal, when it's properly explained and discussed in the Greek parliament, in the next few days, and when the end
result is quite clear, there is
[14:05:00] this (INAUDIBLE) of major changes, taxation is one small for the first time -- sorry, on wealth and business, or other pensioners and wage
earners.
And there is a small balance approach nowadays, compared to with the past.
PLEITGEN: How are you going to stop the run on the banks that's going on right now? Because people are withdrawing a lot of assets; your banks, in
any case, are already being bankrolled by the European Central Bank. That has to stop quickly, doesn't it?
STATHAKIS: Well, I think as soon as the agreement is signed then the stability in the banking sector will be immediate. ECB obviously has a
very strong role in the stability of our banking system and I think to be rather optimistic that the return of the money in the banking sector will
be quite impressive in the next two or three months, as soon as the fear of Grexit, of all instabilities removed.
PLEITGEN: But the big problem is, sir, that the fear of Grexit is something that is -- has been, over the past five years, removed always
until the next time a payment is due. It's something the U.S. has lamented. They say we've been kicking the can down the road and you said
yourself the next things that's important is to initiate economic growth.
How are you going to do that?
STATHAKIS: Well, we are -- we all believe that the Greek economy nowadays has a very strong pro-cyclical growth element because the recession was
huge; 25 percent -- more than 25 percent of our GDP -- has bottomed out, more or less. So there in indications and strong investment interest
nowadays in the Greek economy.
So we think that as soon as we get the agreement and the economy stabilized, then the growth will come. We project -- and this is an
agreement with the institutions -- that even 2015, this year, we'll have a small growth of 1 percent. The performance will be much better in '16 and
'17.
PLEITGEN: What are you going to do to spur that, though? Because one of the things that people have been saying is for the past five years, many of
the reforms that the E.U. has wanted and that have been necessary have not been done by subsequent Greek governments. We're talking especially about
privatization, of ports, of airports; we're also talking about getting rid of tax breaks for your islands. We're talking about taxing the hotel
industry.
How are you going to spur that economic growth? Because obviously it would help if economic growth were pushed along a little by the government as
well.
STATHAKIS: Well, we have -- we'll go on with privatizations only in -- for this year, '15. And one more privatization, '16. But we will not continue
the privatization program thereafter. That includes water, electricity and other privatizations that were planned. This is quite clear on our behalf.
The issue of the business community will go on with pro-business reforms concerning licensing, making business more easy to start in Greece and
we'll keep this structural reform pattern. But the real issue, I think, is get the stability back into the economy and allow the investment, if there
is around, to be expressed. I think Greek economy will do an excellent performance in the coming years.
PLEITGEN: But in any case, the Greeks will have to face more austerity.
How long do you think some of that can go on? Because the Greeks -- the Greek people, for a very long time, have been having a very hard time
making it by.
STATHAKIS: Well, as you know, the agreement has reduced significantly the fiscal surpluses for the next three or four years, compared with the
program that was in action -- the previous program. So the fiscal surpluses have been reduced relatively smaller rates. This is good news
for Greece. This will produce less recession and will allow fiscal space to turn the economy towards growth.
PLEITGEN: We look at the negotiations that you've had with European countries. What have been the main sticking points and do you think that
they have been realistic about the goals that need to be achieved and that can be achieved in Greece? Because it's been very tough. There's been
accusations that have been flying across the board.
STATHAKIS: Well, I think that as you know, the previous program
[14:10:00] overestimated a number of issues. That was privatization, structural reforms. And undermined the fact that privatizations had taken
place in the past.
Greece is not, as most people, think the state sector in the business core is a very small sector compared with other European economies. So they
overstated a number of issues. That's why the fiscal adjustment produced a lot of recession. And what was in the program at the time as a growth
agenda, privatization, structural reforms, were practically unsuccessful.
With the current arrangements, I think there is a much more rational approach to the issue of investment -- and fresh investment in the Greek
economy. And this will have a better result compared to the past.
PLEITGEN: George Stathakis, the economy minister of Greece, thank you very much for joining the program.
STATHAKIS: Thank you very much.
PLEITGEN: And when it comes to how Greek people feel about the debt negotiations, the writing is on the wall -- quite literally -- as graffiti
is springing up, expressing the country's financial woes across Athens.
Protesters are shown squeezing the euro, a funeral march is given for the currency and ancient art meets modern mayhem as the Venus de Milo becomes
an activist.
And when we come back, standing up to Russia. I get the latest from the NATO secretary-general, Jens Stoltenberg. That's coming up.
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PLEITGEN: Welcome back to the program.
And it is a clear message to Vladimir Putin.
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ASH CARTER, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We do not seek cold, let alone a hot war with Russia. We do not seek to make Russia an enemy. But make no
mistake, we will defend our allies.
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PLEITGEN: That, of course, was the U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter in Berlin on Monday, ahead of announcing that American tanks, artillery and
other equipment are moving closer to Russia's border.
The decision is likely to anger Vladimir Putin and it certainly has and it also pleased Russia's NATO neighbors, who have been feeling quite uneasy
about Moscow's intentions ever since the country annexed Crimea last year.
NATO has been working hard to boost its security, putting together a stronger rapid reaction force and focusing on military drills like this one
in Poland last week. It's all the direction of NATO's secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg, who joined me earlier from Brussels for this exclusive
interview.
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PLEITGEN: Jens Stoltenberg, welcome to the program.
STOLTENBERG: Thank you.
PLEITGEN: Sir, these are decisive times in NATO's history. You're trying to institute a lot of changes, a response force, a rapid reaction force.
How far along are you in that process?
And how happy
[14:15:00] are you with the way that member states are participating?
STOLTENBERG: So we are on track and we are adapting because the world is changing. And we are making the biggest changes and the biggest
reinforcements, our collective defense, since the end of the Cold War.
And we do so because we see new challenges and new threats, both to the East, related to a more assertive Russia, aggression, response to
aggressions in Ukraine, but also turmoil, violence in the south, in Iraq, throughout the Middle East.
PLEITGEN: What are your hopes for the -- for the defense ministers' meeting that's set to start tomorrow?
What sort of things would you like the member states to commit to?
What are your hopes for that?
STOLTENBERG: My hope and my expectation is that we're going to make very clear decisions related to boosting our collective defense, meaning, for
instance, increase the size of the NATO response force, the high-readiness force, and especially related to maritime and air component and special
operation forces; increase the speed of our decision-making, both politically and military decision-making, which is key to respond when we
have a little warning time.
And also I expect the ministers to make decisions related to a new headquarters, dealing with logistics, supplies, transportation, which is
key when you're going to move war forces faster throughout the Europe.
And then, of course, I very much look forward to address the question of defense spending and to, of course, commend those countries which are now
starting to increase. Eighteen NATO allies are increasing defense spending this year; 17 of those 18 are European NATO allies. That's a good
development.
But of course we have a long way to go. And the total defense spending is still going down because the biggest allies are still -- are either
decreasing or at least not increasing defense spending enough. So also to address the question of defense spending.
PLEITGEN: When it comes to Russia, do you think that they all see eye-to- eye, though?
Because it seems as though, especially the Eastern member states, some of the Northern member states as well, but the Eastern member states see this
as an imminent threat, as a big threat to their territorial integrity, to their safety; whereas some of the Western European nations, it seems
different.
And it was a study that was conducted recently by the Pew Center that said the publics -- in places like Germany, France, as well as Italy, more than
50 percent of them wouldn't want a military response in reaction to a Russian attack on another member state.
STOLTENBERG: So we are living in countries which are democratic, open societies, an alliance of 28 democratic societies, and of course there are
different views, different opinions.
But the important thing is that we, as an alliance, 28 allies, we have been able to make decisions. But perhaps even more important, we have been able
to implement them.
We have already established a new high-readiness speeded force. So we are already delivering. And we have increased our military presence in the
eastern part of the alliance. So -- and we are also in the process of establishing six new, small headquarters in the six Eastern allied NATO
countries.
PLEITGEN: I want to also talk about Russia's concerns because, on the one hand, a lot of politicians keep talking about the challenge that Russia
poses; of course there's a conflict in Ukraine; there's the increased fly- by through European airspace.
But the Russians, for their part, are also saying that they feel threatened by NATO as well. They point to the U.S. possibly stationing weapons and
other equipment in Eastern member states, also in the Baltic States as well.
They point to maneuvers that have been conducted near Kaliningrad. They say that NATO planes also fly with their transponders switched off.
Is there more that NATO can do to defuse the situation?
And how seriously do you take these concerns that the Russians have?
STOLTENBERG: Everything we do is defensive. It's proportionate and it's fully aligned with our international commitments.
We don't seek confrontation with Russia. We don't seek a new arms race. Actually we still strive for a more cooperative and constructive
relationship with Russia and especially in times as these.
I think it's important that we keep the chance for political dialogue and contact open and we need more transparency, more predictability, related
to, for instance, military exercises. We have full openness related to our exercises because I think it's important to avoid a situation where
situations can spiral out of control.
And therefore we call on Russia also to do the same.
PLEITGEN: One of the things that many Eastern member states are afraid of, many member states in general, is a new kind of warfare, a new
[14:20:00] kind of conflict, which some would call hybrid warfare, hybrid conflict, something the Russians, for instance, many say, have been doing
in Ukraine.
How well is NATO equipped to deal with something like that?
Or is it Russia that's really revolutionizing the way that conflicts are led?
STOLTENBERG: Part of the adaptation of NATO is to also increase our capability and capacity to address these new kinds of warfare -- cyber,
hybrid and so on.
And we have, for instance, decided that also a cyber attack can trigger our collective defense, that we protect and defend each other. And we are also
increasing our capabilities, for instance, when it comes to intelligence, special operation forces, surveillance, because all of this is important to
be able to detect and to understand a hybrid situation.
PLEITGEN: Sir, how worried are you about the current situation in Ukraine?
Because it seems that conflict, which was sort of dormant for a while, seems to be flaring up again.
STOLTENBERG: The situation is -- in Ukraine is very serious. And of course this -- all reason for concern when we see that the cease-fires are
violated again and again.
On the other hand, there is no other way for a peaceful solution than to support all efforts, to implement the Minsk agreements, meaning full
respect of the cease-fire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons and very important also to allow the international monitors full access to the areas
so they can monitor the full implementation of the cease-fire.
Russia has a special responsibility because Russia continues to support the separatists destabilizing Eastern Ukraine and therefore Russia has to stop
the support for the separatists and withdraw all its forces from Eastern Ukraine.
PLEITGEN: One of the things I was interested to read is how prominently and how important to you it seems the fight against ISIS is also as well.
How important is it?
What do you think NATO can do to enhance that fight?
STOLTENBERG: All NATO allies participate in the coalition fighting ISIL and we are also drawing on the experience NATO allies and NATO partners
have in working together, for instance, in Afghanistan, they used the experience, the interoperability, the ability to work together when they
are now fighting ISIL in Iraq.
In addition, NATO is now in close dialogue with the government of Iraq, where we aim at establishing what we call defense capacity building. That
means a cooperation where we are helping them to increase their capacity to protect and defend themselves.
PLEITGEN: Jens Stoltenberg, thank you for joining the program.
STOLTENBERG: Thank you.
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PLEITGEN: So there you have it, tense and also of course very costly challenges facing the NATO alliance. But after a break, imagine a world
where some of the best things in life are indeed free, believe it or not. It's become a reality in one small town on the Italian island of Sicily and
we will take you there -- next.
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PLEITGEN: And finally tonight, across Europe, citizens are paying high prices to get a grip on the property ladder, certainly here in London is a
prime example. But in one small and historic town in Sicily, there's an innovative answer for those looking for a room of their own. Imagine a
world where the real estate market is so weak home hunters get an offer they can't refuse.
The Italian town of Gangi is giving hundreds of houses away for free. That's right. The strategy is drawing many potential investors to the
Palermo province made famous, thanks to a stint in "The Godfather" film. The town has been in dire straits for decades as the number of residents
dwindled leaving Gangi with hundreds more homes than people that can fill them.
Now there's a huge waiting list to get in on the 200 homes still up for grabs. However, of course, there is a catch. Once you get your piece of
the pie, the homes are all dilapidated and need significant work and you'll be under the gun to do it fast. The places must be restored within four
years of the giveaway. That's an effort to channel employment towards local workers so the town that was once on the brink of disappearing
forever could be home free.
And that is it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Twitter
@FPleitgenCNN. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.
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