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Amanpour

Greece, On Brink of Default, Asks for New Bailout; New Deadline For Iran Nuclear Talks Is July 7; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 30, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: clocks are ticking all over the world just hours away from missing a nearly $2 billion

payment, Greeks rally in the streets again and I ask why citizens there should reject the current bailout offer as the government demands.

Plus the Iran nuclear deadline has been extended by a week; Iran's foreign minister says he thinks a deal is possible. I get the inside track from a

former negotiator.

And the Rolling Stones' former bass guitarist striking out on his own.

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BILL WYMAN, MUSICIAN: I suddenly heard a few demos I'd done some years ago. And I thought, hmm, they sound pretty good. Maybe I should do

another album.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

European officials are scrambling in a frantic effort to bring Greece back from the brink as the Syriza government misses one payment deadline and

puts another bailout proposal on the table. European finance ministers are on a teleconference right now, deciding on that proposal.

When Greece's finance minister today confirmed that Athens will not meet tonight's deadline to repay $1.7 billion to the IMF, it did not trigger a

Grexit but it did bring it closer. And Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel said that she doesn't know what's next.

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ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): This evening at 2400 hours or midnight European time, the program comes to an end. The

deadline comes to an end. And I can't really give you any other significant indication of course after midnight. We are not just going to

put an end to our discussions. The door is still open for discussions.

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AMANPOUR: Now earlier, Richard Quest spoke to the former Greek prime minister, George Papandreou and he asked him what Sunday's referendum is

really about.

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU, FORMER GREEK PRIME MINISTER: In the end, it's becoming a vote of staying in the euro, trying to find a deal or saying no and

slipping -- I would say slipping out or sliding out because it'll be a painful, a very painful exit, which won't come immediately but we will most

likely be suffocating. And then at some point, whatever government is in power will have to say, well, let's go the drachma.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST: So it is a referendum; de facto on Eurozone membership.

PAPANDREOU: It is de facto on Eurozone membership, unluckily. I thought we could have had a deal where we would then talk about the deal which, of

course, would be a guarantee to stay in the euro. But when -- if you have a prime minister, a government, and then you have the Greek people, if they

decide to say no, which I can understand the sense of austerity after five years, as you said, the frustration, we were almost out of the markets.

But there is a frustration. There's pain. People think that maybe a "no" will be a liberation. I think it will be further dependency and further

misery in our country. But if there is that no vote, it will see and interpreted in the Eurozone as a country that doesn't want to stay in the

same family.

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AMANPOUR: The former Greek prime minister there, talking to Richard Quest, who joins me now from Athens.

Richard, thank you.

What can you tell us about these last-ditch talks that the Eurozone finance ministers are having right now?

QUEST: It's extremely complicated, Christiane. We really don't have many details. What we believe and what we know is that two things that

happened; firstly, that the Greeks have asked for a two-year bailout from the European bailout fund known as the ESM, the European Stability

Mechanism. Now that's going to take weeks if not a couple of months to sort out.

But Greece has formally requested a new bailout from Europe. And the second thing is they've asked for a short-term extension of the existing

bailout deal that's supposed to expire in just a few hours from now.

Christiane, I'm not sure I can see that happening. Time and again Europe has said no to any existing bailout extension. But the genius of what the

Greeks have done tonight is to put on the table a completely new bailout request, because that buys them time and puts the ECB, Christiane, in an

impossible position when they have to decide if and when they're going to start emergency funding again to the Greek people.

[14:05:00] AMANPOUR: Richard, great insight. And of course behind you are yet another group of people rallying. Tonight it's "yes" to stay in and to

accept the Eurozone.

So when are they to put this question to Costas Lapavitsas, who's a member of parliament in the ruling Syriza Party. He's also an economics professor

and joins me right now live from Athens.

Well, you heard what Richard Quest told us, that this is a genius move from Syriza to buy yourselves more time.

But isn't it also just this ongoing game of chicken?

What can you tell us about this new bailout proposal that you've put down?

COSTAS LAPAVITSAS, MP, SYRIZA PARTY: I don't think it's a genius move. I think it's a move of trouble and desperation, to a certain extent. Things

are getting very difficult and very tight. And the government is trying to open up a new avenue of negotiation. That's what it is.

The situation is becoming daily more difficult with the banks and that's what's forcing the issue.

AMANPOUR: So you look under a huge amount of pressure, just looking at you and listening to what you say. You're using the words "a desperation

measure". So what about this referendum, which caught the rest of the world really off guard? Isn't that sort of outdated now that anyway the

terms of the whole referendum question seem to have been negated by what happened over the last 24 hours?

LAPAVITSAS: We offer to the Greek people a vote on measures, on whether they would accept bailout conditions or they would go for something else.

They would go for a path that would give them different options. The opposition and the lenders have used every means possible at their disposal

to turn this into a discussion of a referendum on Europe or no Europe. This is a very ideological and sentimental issue in Greece and

unfortunately among broad layers of our population, it seems there is some resonance. However, in the rest of the country, there's still very strong

support for "no," and the battle is still on on this issue.

AMANPOUR: Can I just play you --

LAPAVITSAS: The government should keep its --

AMANPOUR: OK, you say the government should keep its nerve.

Constantine Michalos, who's the president of the Greek Chamber of Commerce told me last night this about the referendum and about the question that is

being demanded of the people. Just listen for a second.

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CONSTANTINE MICHALOS, PRESIDENT, GREEK CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: It is impossible for anyone who hasn't studied basic economic theory to be

able to understand exactly what the question is. And to be quite honest with you, I think we're looking towards a charade referendum on Sunday.

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AMANPOUR: So he's just slamming the whole referendum idea anyway, A, that it's completely impossible to understand the question and, B, that it just

is meaningless.

LAPAVITSAS: That is not true. Greece has come under enormous pressure during the last several months to accept essentially bailout conditions

with the very same conditions that would have been true over the last five years that they've destroyed the economy. We said no. The lenders have

insisted They have not retreated at all and we put the question to the Greek people. The question is, do they want to go back to policies that

have ruined the economy? What happened in the last few days is that the lenders and the domestic forces in favor of a bailout policies have managed

to connect this to the question of Europe. The key issue here is the banks. The government has allowed the banks to shut down because of the

pressure from abroad but he hasn't taken measures to solve the banking issue.

If the government wants to win more time and to turn the tide, it must intervene actively in the realm of the banks now.

AMANPOUR: OK. Let me put this to you. Tonight's deadline was to make a payment to the IMF. The head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, recently said

that she was very frustrated by the Greek government because, quote, "of a lack of adults in the room."

That is how she described your government and the negotiating posture. Now since a lot of very high-level Nobel economists are suggesting that,

frankly, Greece might be better off outside the euro, why even bother with a referendum? Why just say -- why not just say no -- we're out, we're out,

it'll be better for us.

LAPAVITSAS: I personally have argued in favor of exiting the Eurozone for many years but (INAUDIBLE) in favor of exiting the Eurozone with a plan and

with open discussion and debate with the Greek people, preparing them for whatever might happen and relying on their support.

What's happening now, however, is a ratcheting up of tension caused by the lenders to blackmail the Greek government. This stuff about adults and

children and so on is just

[14:10:00] basically adding insult to injury. The lenders are to blame and our policies are completely puerile. Very well known economists have said

so openly. Greece is forced down the path of harsh austerity when its economies frustrated (ph). This is nonsense economics. But what they've

managed to do is to connect nonsense economics with an issue of Europe and of identity. And that is proving to be very important at the moment.

AMANPOUR: Costas Lapavitsas, MP for Syriza, thank you very much for joining us as, in fact, the euro finance ministers are discussing your

latest proposal as we speak. Thank you for joining us from Athens.

And as the Greeks are trying to beat the clock, luckily for them, planetary activity has stepped in to buy the country a little time -- just a little

time -- precisely an extra second because at midnight all over the world, a leap second enters the game to realign the timing of the Earth's slowing

rotation with the 24-hour clock that we all work by.

And after a break, another deadline in dire need of extension. Will Iran, the United States and world powers actually seal that nuclear deal? Our

insider -- next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And now to that other critical negotiation, trying to clinch a nuclear deal with Iran. The deadline was

today but it has been extended for another week as both sides double down on their demands. The U.S. president, Barack Obama, insisted there could

be no compromise on thorough inspections.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we can't provide assurances that the pathways for Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon are closed

and if we can't verify that, if the inspections regime, verification regime, is inadequate then we're not going to get a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Today Iran's chief negotiator, the foreign minister, Javad Zarif, returned to the talks in Vienna after a lightning trip back to

Tehran. And in barely audible comments at one time to a journalist, he, too, said that a deal is possible.

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JAVAD ZARIF, FOREIGN MINISTER, IRAN (from captions): I didn't go to get a mandate. I already had a mandate to negotiate, and I am here to get a

final deal and I think we can.

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AMANPOUR: So can they?

Joining me to talk about all of this is Sayed Hossein Mousavian. He's a former Iranian ambassador and nuclear negotiator and now a research scholar

at Princeton University.

Welcome back to the program. Mr. Mousavian, what is going on? If they couldn't do it June 20th, why could they do it July 7th? Is this endless

or do you think it's within reach?

SAYED HOSSEIN MOUSAVIAN, FORMER IRANIAN AMBASSADOR AND NUCLEAR NEGOTIATOR: I think it is within reach because already there is no more dispute left

about measures within non-proliferation treaty, NPT. It means Iran has already accepted all measures within non-proliferation.

As you know, Christiane, non-proliferation treaty, NPT, is the only international credible arrangement on non-proliferation. Therefore, the

big achievement is that already

[14:15:00] there is no more dispute left about any measures within --

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AMANPOUR: All right.

MOUSAVIAN: -- non-proliferation treaty --

AMANPOUR: Let me just ask you this then. Let me ask you this then. Let me ask you about the language that has worried everybody and that is the

Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, in a speech, has talked about the precise timing of lifting of sanctions, saying that they have to be done

immediately the deal is signed, which is different from what the framework agreement said.

Give us an idea of what he exactly means by that and how does one get out of that stalemate?

MOUSAVIAN: I think his statement was misinterpreted, because I read the Persian text carefully. He said the Iranian commitments should be

synchronized with lifting sanctions with the world powers. It means this should be proportionate reciprocation by each party. If Iran is doing the

first step, one step from the P5+1 should be taken to lift some part of the sanctions.

What he meant, he meant that it is not -- he is not going to accept that first Iran takes all steps to the end and then wait for the world powers to

lift the sanctions. He said it should be synchronized. And I believe he is right.

AMANPOUR: What about the issue of what he said about no foreigners at any military sites? Again, the additional protocol of the NPT suggests and so

the fact sheet that was put out during the interim accords said that there would be visits to quote-unquote "suspicious sites" that the IAEA deemed.

MOUSAVIAN: Again here there is a misunderstanding because Iran would accept additional protocol if there is a final deal. And Iran would accept

all inspections within the framework of additional protocol. The disputed issue is about inspections beyond additional protocol. The issue is about

anytime anywhere, which no other country has ever accepted because no country would let IAEA to go to any military site, any day, any moment they

decide. Therefore they would agree there would be no dispute on additional protocol and for inspection to military sites, definitely this would be

within additional protocol under managed access.

AMANPOUR: So that's the language that can -- that can allow this to happen, "managed access."

Is that correct?

MOUSAVIAN: I think every country for having IAEA, International Atomic Energy Agency, to visit their military sites, they are doing through

managed access because they cannot go everywhere in the military bases. If there is some problem, they can do in some way which the IAEA normally is

doing, these other countries, Iran would be also ready to accept within the framework of additional protocol but nothing beyond additional protocol.

AMANPOUR: As you very well know, because you're sitting in the United States, several of President Obama's own advisers wrote a open letter

warning not to agree to a weak deal. Ayatollah Khamenei asked Foreign Minister Zarif to come back to Iran; he went back.

Why did he go back to Iran, do you think?

What did he have to rush away from the talks for?

MOUSAVIAN: No, I think they have three round of talks with -- between Kerry and Zarif and then I believe John Kerry had consultation with White

House through secure channels. But Zarif preferred to go and to consult in person. It was just a move to help the final deal by the real deadline,

you know, Christiane, the real deadline as Joe Biden said, is July 9th. It is not June 30th.

AMANPOUR: Well, we'll see. It's extended for another week. We appreciate your insight, Mr. Mousavian, from Princeton, New Jersey, thank you very

much indeed.

And when we come back, we turn all the way to rock 'n' roll. I speak to Bill Wyman, who at 78, is the artist formerly known as a Rolling Stone. I

asked him about going back to basics -- that's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where a rock 'n' roll elder picks up his guitar to strike a chord again at the ripe old age of 78.

Former Rolling Stone bass guitarist Bill Wyman has just released his first solo album in three decades.

It's called "Back to Basics" -- pardon the pun -- at the iconic 100 Club here in London, we talked about why he keeps going, why he's ticked off

that people think Mick and Keith started the band and why he doesn't like talking about his personal life -- like would he have started a

relationship with Mandy Smith when she was 14? As you'll find out, neither he nor his publicist wanted to go there.

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AMANPOUR: Bill Wyman, welcome to the program.

WYMAN: Thank you, thank you.

AMANPOUR: You're putting a lot of the young bands to shame with your longevity, with your energy.

WYMAN: Well, it's never happened before, to be this -- it has blues musicians with classical musicians, with great composers and writers,

poets, actors. They all carry on, don't they?

AMANPOUR: So artists never give up?

WYMAN: Artists don't give up either, do they?

AMANPOUR: How do you prepare for these big gigs? How does Mick Jagger prance around as if he's Peter Pan still?

WYMAN: Oh, he has to really practice and do exercises and stuff like that. He has to do that throughout the tour. He runs outside the hotel in the

morning, up and down with a security man watching him and things like that. He always did.

AMANPOUR: Why have you decided for the first time, I think, in 33 years to bring out another solo album?

WYMAN: Well, since I left the band, I've been incredibly busy. I've done all the things I wanted to do when I was younger, which I didn't have to do

when I was in the band. I've got married and raised three teenage daughters, you know, and I've enjoyed all those times. But I suddenly

heard a few demos I'd done some years ago. And I thought, hmm, they sound pretty good. Maybe I should do another album.

And then I thought maybe I'm too old, you know. And then I thought, as we said earlier, you know, everybody else goes on until they drop, so why not?

AMANPOUR: One of the things is called "Stuff (Can't Get Enough)."

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AMANPOUR: You sing, quote, "Money will be the death of me."

Is it about money? Can success be basically a killer?

WYMAN: I left before the big money. I never regretted it. But money -- well, money's always the death of everybody, isn't it? Everything focuses

around money. It's to do with drugs, to do with crime, everything's money, isn't it, unfortunately.

AMANPOUR: You know, many people have either listened to it on the audiobook or read Keith Richards' biography. I mean, sex, drugs, rock 'n'

roll, I mean it is unbelievable to us that this person is still alive.

Did you ever get tempted down that route?

WYMAN: Keith has -- never let the truth spoil a good story, as the say.

AMANPOUR: Aha. What's the biggest misnomer or what is the biggest thing that conflicts with the truth that gets in your craw?

WYMAN: Oh, there's so many.

AMANPOUR: OK. One particular one?

WYMAN: Yes, that Mick and Keith created the Rolling Stones. Brian Jones did.

[14:25:00] That is the biggest one that's thought of by other people because Brian formed the band. He named the band. He decided what kind of

music he did and then he enlisted each member into his band, starting with Ian Stewart, then Mick Jagger, then Keith, then me, then Charlie. And it's

was Brian's band, whether we liked it or not. You know, later Mick and Keith took over. Yes, of course. But you know.

AMANPOUR: What happened to your relationship with Mick and Keith after you quit the Rolling Stones?

Were they happy about it?

WYMAN: No, they didn't want me to leave. They didn't believe it for two years, kept saying, you know, you haven't left. Yes, I have. No, you

haven't. I said I left two years ago.

(LAUGHTER)

WYMAN: I'm now married. I'm bringing up three little girls, you know. They decided to carry on and they're still doing it, bless them, you know.

AMANPOUR: You're now putting out your first solo album in all these years at a time when the whole industry's been turned upside down. What does

that mean to you? Have you been able to even consider what Spotify, what streaming -- I mean, is that good, bad?

WYMAN: When I played my album to my youngest daughter, Matilda, who was 16, and four of her friends, I played them a couple of tracks. And I was

very gobsmacked by which ones they liked the best. And the song they liked the best was the blues, which is the last track on the album, called, "I

Got Time." And I thought that would be the last one they liked. I thought they'd like all the up tempo, punchy ones. And it was a complete reversal

because the punchy ones and all that are the ones that the older people like. And they were asking about can we get -- download it from Spotify

and all these things.

AMANPOUR: Do you even know what they're talking about?

WYMAN: Yes, I know what they're talking about but I don't do it.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: You have a song that's been noted on your new album, called "Seventeen."

WYMAN: Oh, yes.

AMANPOUR: Are you asking for trouble?

WYMAN: No, because I wrote that in 1980 on an earlier album. I really like the song. I used to go out at that time with lots of models in the

south of France, in Paris and in New York. And I was friends with them. And that's what that song was about, about models, you know, 17, movie

screen, silver screen --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- you know what, he's brought up this whole Mandy idea again.

WYMAN: This was written four years before I even met her.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that because you lived in a different time than we do --

WYMAN: That was released on the album I did when I had my hit.

AMANPOUR: I was really interested by the fact that you yourself, in the atmosphere that we live in right now.

Can I ask you why you went to the police about Mandy Smith?

WYMAN: I don't talk about that. It's 30 years old. It's just -- it's a thing that's gone. If you did an interview with Mick, I don't think you'd

ask about his illegitimate children or Keith Richards' drunk --

AMANPOUR: Of course I would. But of course I would.

WYMAN: -- but they wouldn't want to answer it.

AMANPOUR: They may not want to. But I'm a journalist and let's -- we had a --

WYMAN: I've done all this so many times.

AMANPOUR: Have you? You feel like you've put it -- you've put it to rest?

WYMAN: I say, it's 30 years ago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The interview ended abruptly but afterwards, Wyman told me that he's just embarrassed. So are his wife and his daughters.

And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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