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Rocky Road to the Referendum; U.K. Debates Attacking ISIS in Syria; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 02, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:01:09]

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: on a rocky road to a referendum, the Greek chief negotiator tries again to convince the

E.U. to change its one-size-fits-all policy in an exclusive interview from Athens.

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EUCLID TSAKALOTOS, CHIEF GREEK NEGOTIATOR: Europe is still the sick man of the world economy. So something is wrong. And it's time for the

Europeans to give some space, to see how things go, to a government that has certain differences in ideology, in priority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And is the U.K. doing a U-turn on Syria? Two years after vetoing military action, Britain's government says it is time

to reconsider.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Negotiations are off the table as Europe plays a waiting game now until the Greek people, speaking what can only be called a confusing

referendum, on whether to accept or reject Europe's bitter bailout pill.

Pensioners are once again queueing at the country's banks, desperate for the limited cash and uncertain what tomorrow or even the next hours

will bring. The Dutch finance minister said today that if the Greeks vote no, all bets are off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROEN DIJSSELBLOEM, EUROGROUP PRESIDENT (through translator): But people say we don't want that, then there is no basis. I think that there

would not only be no basis for a new program but it would be very much a question whether there would be a basis for Greece in the Eurozone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Euclid Tsakalotos is the Greek deputy foreign minister and he's also their chief bailout negotiator, tasked with representing Greece

in talks with Christine Lagarde of the IMF and others. And earlier, I spoke to him exclusively from Athens.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Tsakalotos, welcome to the program. And I can hear a massive demonstration behind you.

TSAKALOTOS: Yes, you can. I'll try to speak over it. It's from the Communist Party of Greece, which is proposing either a no more against

voting on Sunday's referendum.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, you've set the parameter there. Everybody is wondering whether it will be a yes or a no.

But let me first start by asking you, how can you explain your prime minister telling the E.U. that, yes, he will actually accept with a few

tweaks then turning around and telling the Greek people that they're being blackmailed and they should vote no in the referendum?

TSAKALOTOS: Well, the position of the Greek government is quite simple. The proposition of the institutions was not a sustainable solution

for the Greek problem. It didn't create the conditions that we could promise to deliver what we promised to do.

And that meant that we couldn't put it to the Greek people in parliament, to the MPs in parliament because they would have voted it down

and the government would have fallen. So we took the honest path of taking it for a referendum.

If the voters decide that the proposition of the institutions, the proposal of the institutions is a fair compromise then we will have to

respect that decision.

If they decide that it isn't, then we'll have to carry on negotiating until we get a deal that is sustainable, that gives a new lease of life to

the Greek economy, that people can believe something has changed, that investors start investing, consumers start consuming and savers start

putting their money back in the banks.

Without that kind of deal, we don't think that Greece will come out of the mire.

AMANPOUR: But the question as to why the prime minister, at the last minute, said he would accept the current proposal that was on the table --

and let me just play for you what the IMF leader, Christine Lagarde, told Richard Quest as you failed to pay that tranche that you needed to pay.

This is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE LAGARDE, MANAGING DIRECTOR, IMF: Given the level of uncertainty, confusions and constant movement and I think -- I think a bit

more adulthood would still be needed, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So she's saying it again, that actually you're not negotiating like adults.

How do you react?

TSAKALOTOS: Well, I'm not going to go to that level. I think that anybody who's following closely what our proposal that was on the table was

will conclude that we tried to propose what we felt was the common ground of the two sides. What the institutions did was more or less give their

opening bid of three months ago.

Apart from the fact that they gave us slightly more generous fiscal targets, the fiscal surpluses, in all other places, the IMF has not budged

one iota from its initial position. So your viewers will have to decide who's an adult, who's not.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Tsakalotos, doesn't all this seem immaterial right now? Because that thing that was on the table apparently is no longer on the

table. The thing you're asking the Greek people to vote for in a referendum does not exist anymore.

So what is the point of having a referendum?

TSAKALOTOS: Well, there's always a point to democracy, I think. There's always a time when the European people have to say we respect

people's views. If Europe decides that they cannot live with a government that has slightly different priorities, social priorities, has slightly

different economic priorities from the mainstream, then that closes the door on democracy and it opens the door for very nasty right-wing politics

because if nothing is on the table after a mandate from the people of Greece, not only Greek people but many other people in Europe will make --

draw the conclusion that this Europe is a Europe that you can vote for whatever you want but you always get the same policies. That cannot be

good for democracy anywhere in Europe.

AMANPOUR: The point I was trying to ask you about was that this issue that you have specifically in 72 words asked the people to vote on, the

complex nature of this bailout proposal, no longer exists.

So what is the democratic exercise for?

Or you think that it's still on the table?

TSAKALOTOS: I think it's a democratic exercise on do we want pension reform, which we accept, or pension cuts? When the institutions ask for

1.8 billion savings from pensions in 2016, nobody who is a serious economist believed you can do that without cuts; whereas if you do reform,

you can save a lot of money over the long run. So that's one issue they're deciding on.

It's time that we negotiate it properly and we accept Michel Sapin, the French finance minister, who said in the beginning of this process that

there are two principles, the principle of the democratic mandate, which I say will be expressed on Sunday, and the principle of the continuation of

the rules of the E.U. and the mandates of the other 18 Eurozone member states. And that we are committed to.

AMANPOUR: And what happens if the vote is yes?

TSAKALOTOS: I think if there is a yes vote, the arguments and the positions of the Greek government will have been defeated. They will have

been turned 'round by the voters. I'm not going to say and speculate on the political mechanics of it, but obviously there will have to be an

implementation of the deal. But it's not a deal that this Greek government in its form will be able to pass.

People who believe in it, who have to have a much bigger say than people who do not believe in it. And we shall have to see how that is

brought about.

AMANPOUR: Isn't it true that whatever happens in the referendum, it'll require another lengthy round of negotiations, you know, after all

these five months that you've been trying to negotiate, that this sort of starts all over again?

TSAKALOTOS: No, I don't think so. I think sensible grownups as Ms. Lagarde says can sort things out very quickly. There's good will on both

sides. And I hope after the democratic vote of the people there will be good will on both sides. And definitely we won't have a triumphalist

attitude. We will say can we have a deal that is a bit more economically viable, a little bit more socially just, a deal that we know that we can

keep our promises?

It's time to take Grexit off the table. It's time to give fiscal space for Greece to be able to carry out the reforms it's promised to do to

have a new order of these reforms, to begin with corruption, to begin with tax evasion, to begin with the reform of the public administration, that

both our creditors and we have said are the main problems of the Greek society for the last 40 years.

Europe and the IMF have an ideal opportunity of a government that is not associated with the past to be able to carry out that ambitious reform

strategy and to be able at last to reform the public administration, at last to get rich people to pay their taxes, not just on a voluntary basis,

at last to counter the corruption that has so bedeviled both our state and our society.

AMANPOUR: And just one more question about the tone of what's been going on. We've played you that Christine Lagarde sound bite; you reacted

to that.

AMANPOUR: Your own prime minister, though, has called European leaders basically accusing them of extremist conservative forces, of acting

like that.

There's been a huge ideological, ad hominem, rhetorical battle going on as well.

TSAKALOTOS: Obviously in any negotiation, there are times when tempers flare, when people take up positions that are not helpful. And

it's time for the Europeans to give some space, to see how things go, to a government that has certain differences in ideology, in priority. And

it'll be good for Greece and it'll be good for Europe.

AMANPOUR: Well, on that note, Euclid Tsakalotos, chief negotiator for Greece, thank you very much indeed for joining me against that very loud

protest.

TSAKALOTOS: You're more than welcome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now there is help -- just a little coming -- from Germany, of all place. This crowdfunding page has been created to ease Greece's

debt. So far, 1.5 million euros have been raised with most of it coming from Germany, a generous idea, but Greece of course needs hundreds of

billions of dollars to get out of trouble.

After a break, 30 British tourists slaughtered on Tunisian sands and now the U.K. might reverse course and take the fight to Syria -- that's

next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Britain seems to be paving the way to step up the fight against ISIS with airstrikes in Syria after Friday's gruesome terror attack in Tunisia

that left 30 British tourists among the 38 dead. This almost two years after British parliament rejected Prime Minister Cameron's bid to attack

the Assad regime over the use of chemical weapons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: It is clear to me that the British parliament, reflecting the views of the British people, does

not want to see British military action. I get that and the government will act accordingly.

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AMANPOUR: But things have changed because new strikes would be against a surging ISIS. Still Cameron's government is looking for

consensus.

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MICHAEL FALLON, BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have -- the prime minister's made it clear that we will not return to the House for

parliamentary authority to conduct airstrikes in Syria unless there is a sufficient consensus behind it. Now maybe the opinion in this Parliament

is rather different to opinion in the last Parliament. A number of things have changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So would that be welcome? Joining me now for the perspective from Washington is John Kirby, who's the spokesman for the U.S.

State Department.

Welcome back to the program, Mr. Kirby. And you heard how we set this up. You in Washington, certainly the ministers and various administration

officials were pretty upset when the British Parliament rejected the idea of military intervention two years ago.

What are you feeling today?

JOHN KIRBY, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Well, look, we have no stronger ally, partner or friend than the United Kingdom. It's a terrific deep

friendship and partnership that just endures and these decisions are obviously for the British people to decide and British leaders to make. We

have grand clothes (ph) now, 62-some odd nations, the British are cooperating in many ways and if they decide to cooperate in other ways,

deeper ways, certainly those contributions would be welcome. But that's really for them to decide.

AMANPOUR: Sure. It's for them to decide. But with this seeming to be underway right now, how would it materially affect, do you think -- and

bring in your military background here, the state of play on the ground if there was more strikes against ISIS in Syria?

KIRBY: Well, look, hypothetically without talking to British decisions that haven't been made yet, I mean, additional assets applied

from a kinetic perspective, a military perspective, as always any commander on the ground wants to have more resources at his or her disposal. That's

just pure physics and math. But it's not just about more in terms of volume. It's about what you're hitting and how effectively you're hitting

it. And there are times when our pilots return from missions without expending ordnance, without dropping bombs, either because of civilian

casualty concerns or a target has moved and is no longer where we thought it was or all kinds of reasons. It's not just about volume.

It's about precision and about making sure that we're stemming ISIL's ability to operate and sustain itself in Iraq and in Syria.

AMANPOUR: Well, you did just actually hit the nail on the head there because as you say, there are a lot of bombing raids that just come back

and don't hit, partly for the reasons you mentioned, but also partly because there isn't the personnel on the ground to guide in real time to

real targets that need to be struck.

How much is that setting back the effort?

And if the prime minister here is calling this an existential struggle -- and so, too, is the President of the United States -- is the U.S., is

the U.K., is the allied military actually throwing what it needs to throw at this crisis?

KIRBY: Well, absolutely, clearly, look, the military component of this campaign has had an effect on ISIL without question, a tremendous

effect. And just because aircraft are returning without expending ordnance doesn't mean that the -- that there's -- that's because we don't have eyes

on the ground. We have capable partners on the ground in Iraq. We're trying to build a moderate opposition to be more capable partners there on

the ground inside Syria. We can conduct airstrikes without having quote- unquote "spotters," if you will.

Yes, there are times when that's an advantage but it's not always necessary and we've had success without them. Look, this is a group that

controls about a quarter or so less territory in Iraq and Syria than it did a year ago. This is a group that you're not seeing drive around in

convoys, the B-roll footage of that just is completely old now. They're not doing that. They're not communicating the same way; they're not able

to sustain themselves in the same way. Doesn't mean that they're defeated. We know that there's still work to be done. But the military component of

the campaign is having some success.

AMANPOUR: John Kirby, what about the actual foot soldiers, at least in Iraq, the majority seem to be Shiite militias backed by Iran, who are

having the most effect in Syria. Obviously the Kurds as well, but until the Iraqi forces really get up and running, it's the Shiite forces backed

by Iran.

What -- where does the United States see itself and see this fight on the ground happening right now?

KIRBY: Well, we are actually doing that, Christiane. I would point to a ceremony today where 500 Sunni fighters graduated from the training

that we're giving them there in Anbar. And that brings to the total of 1,300 since we -- just since we opened that new facility just a few weeks

ago. So there is work being done to better improve the training and the capability. That'll feel competence of Sunni fighters as well as Iraqi

security forces.

Now, yes, you mentioned Shia militia. I think it's important to point out not all of these Shia fighters, these popular mobilization forces, are

at all controlled or manipulated or even contact with Tehran. In fact our estimate is about 80 percent of them are loyal Iraqis that are putting

their lives on the line to try to defend their neighborhood, their community and their fellow citizens against ISIL.

So I think this myth that all Shia fighters are in fact being manipulated by Tehran is just false.

AMANPOUR: All right. We'll continue to watch this, John Kirby, spokesman for the State Department, thanks for joining us from Washington

tonight.

And let us tear now here on set with me is Professor Michael Clarke. He's a defense specialist and a former adviser to the British government.

You heard what John Kirby from a U.S. perspective -- obviously not wanting to get into the politics of this. But is there actually enough

being thrown at ISIS? And if there was, why would the British be thinking of ramping it up?

MICHAEL CLARKE, DIRECTOR GENERAL, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE: Well, the short answer is no because it was expected a year ago that the

air campaign would have the effect of locking ISIS in place and then they could be degraded in other ways. But it hasn't locked them in place.

They're a bit like air in the blue (ph). It's certainly inconvenienced them. It's made it harder and remember, as John said, I mean, ISIS have

lost a few things. They didn't take Kobani; they lost Tikrit. They've lost Mosul Dam. So it's not all success for them.

But the fact is they can still move around. They do it more subtly. They're still pushing. And the most important thing is that this has gone

beyond the civil war in Iraq and in Syria. They are now establishing a brand of global revolution. So there they are, inspiring in Libya,

inspiring in Tunisia, inspiring in Afghanistan. And in a sense, what Western allies are now saying is that this is -- this has gone beyond a

regional problem and unless we go for the snake's head, unless we actually go for the center of gravity of the movement, then this inspiration will

just get worse from our point of view.

AMANPOUR: And we discussed the fact that two years ago, when Cameron was defeated in Parliament, it made everybody very wary. It actually made

the United States very wary. President Obama ended up not doing it, either.

Is there a sea change? Do you detect, because of what happened in Tunisia and because of the continued resilience of ISIS that they just got

to go at it again?

CLARKE: Yes. Two years ago it was handled about as badly as it could have been by the British government. They got just about everything wrong

in the lead up to that Syria vote. And it was a disaster.

Right or -- whether the decision was right or wrong, it was disastrously handled. They determined not to do that again. So here it's

a timing issue. So Mr. Fallon's made his statement now, Parliament rises on the 22nd of this month. So in a week or two's time, Parliament rises.

They can't get a vote through until after the 7th of September, which is where now then new Labour leader, you can't expect the support of the

Labour Party until you know who the new leader is.

So a vote in Parliament which constitutionally they don't need but politically they do, the vote will take place sometime after the 7th of

September. So here is the government now saying let's get this right. Let's start a process of discussion now, partly on the back of what

happened in Tunisia. But also thinking about the parliamentary timetable. It could be some time yet but we'll all work ourselves up to a vote

sometime in the second week of September.

AMANPOUR: And as I put to John Kirby, Prime Minister Cameron has raised the rhetoric after Tunisia, existential, the fight of our

generation. And yet most defense specialists will say that actually neither the United States nor its allies are putting that kind of fight to

an army, which it is, ISIS, in the way that would actually defeat them and cripple them.

So from a military perspective, what actually needs to happen now?

CLARKE: They need to intensify the air campaign as far as possible. And it's got to go to Racko (ph). I mean, from the British point of view

as well as an American point of view, but it's the training program. Ultimately somebody has got to go in on the ground and actually roll up the

territory which IS have got. Now that somebody is almost certain to be a combination of free Syrian fighters, Free Syrian Army, Peshmerga guerillas

and maybe a retrained Iraqi army. And that training program, whatever John says, is not going nearly as well as it should do nor is the equipment

program.

So the whole series of things need to happen in order to actually change the narrative. Because the narrative out there is that IS are

incredibly successful. They're not. They're full of weaknesses. But they're doing pretty well on the information campaign. So we've got to

change that narrative by changing the momentum --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Yes, but of course it's not just a narrative and it's not just the information campaign. They've taken Ramadi. They're flying their

flag. They can inspire terrorists on a beach in Tunisia. And they are winning an ideological war --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- contending very, very strongly.

Do you think the West and its allies get it, that it's a war against an army?

Or do they think it's a terror group?

What do you think?

CLARKE: Exactly right. They started off thinking this was just a nasty little terror group and then it was a nasty big terror group. Now

it's a form of global insurgency. And one of the problems -- and John talks about the coalition of 60-odd countries -- and yes, there is a

coalition on paper. But a lot of those countries, they want to contain IS but they don't really want it to go away because it represents something

that they sort of kind of approve of, which is the pushback against Shia action across the Levant.

And this is a Shia-Sunni argument. This is Shia-Sunni war, as much as anything else. And that 62-nation coalition is not as determined as we say

it is to get rid of this cancer of civilized behavior.

AMANPOUR: So how do you think it's going to go? I mean, they have their caliphate. It may have lost a little bit of territory but it's still

there. And Fallon, who's the defense secretary here, talked about the illogical stance of fighting IS in Iraq and not doing it in Syria.

So is it too late? Is it too little? Can something be done right now?

CLARKE: It can but it is quite late. I mean, this is the first time when Britain agreed to go into this campaign but not go into Syria, first

time that we've joined the United States, first of all not on day one, for one of these things, and secondly with a big national caveat as to what we

would and wouldn't do. We used to be quite scathing of our allies in Afghanistan, who turned up with lots of national caveats. And we said we

don't do that.

Well, yes, we do. We've done it now. Now we're going to get rid of this national caveat. But actually the amount of hardware that we can put

into it at the moment is relatively limited. But it is politically quite important that Britain is trying to say to the United States let's get

serious about this.

AMANPOUR: And we're still here; we're not retreating.

CLARKE: Absolutely so, yes.

AMANPOUR: Professor Clarke, thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.

And the Syria war has created millions of refugees as we know. Indeed, 60 million people are displaced all over the world and that is the

most since World War II. Next, imagine a world where one man defied the Nazi war machine to rescue hundreds of children. The extraordinary life

and times of Britain's Schindler, the late Sir Nicholas Winton -- next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where one man's compassion can save the lives of hundreds. Tonight we remember the

remarkable Sir Nicholas Winton, who died yesterday at the age of 106. He became known as Britain's Oskar Schindler with his own list of countless

lives saved.

Before World War II broke out, he worked tirelessly to set up the Kindertransport, smuggling 669 children out of Czechoslovakia to safety and

persuading British families to take them into their homes.

He barely spoke about it after the war but eventually word did get out about all the good he had done and he was reunited with some of his

charges. Last year, when Winton was 105, the Czech Republic awarded him the Order of the White Lion, its highest honor.

At the ceremony, he remained true to his modest self.

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SIR NICHOLAS WINTON, HOLOCAUST HERO: In a way, perhaps, I shouldn't have lived so long to give everybody the opportunity to exaggerating

everything.

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AMANPOUR: But what a great and long life. Sir Nicholas Winton died exactly 76 years to the day after one of the biggest of his underground

railways delivered its precious cargo, 241 Jewish children, safely kindertransported from Prague to here in Britain.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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