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New Round in Greek Game of Chicken; Scarred by Dictatorship; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 06, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: where to now for Greece? We'll explore the "no" vote hangover from Greece, Germany, France

and Brussels.

And later, Tunisia's president declares a state of emergency one week after that horrific attack on tourists in Sousse. Can this nation remain an Arab

Spring success story? We meet those working towards truth and reconciliation.

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SIHEM BENSEDRINE, JOURNALIST AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: For the first time in my life, I feel I am building something. I'm not fighting against

things. I am building something.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Greece is hanging on for dear life as the game of "Chicken" enters a new round. European leaders will hold an emergency summit tomorrow after the

overwhelming majority of Greek voters said "no" to Europe's austerity bailout terms.

They took to the streets last night to celebrate. But the referendum does not guarantee a softening of those terms nor any immediate infusion of

cash. A key European official says that they do need to come up with urgent humanitarian aid for the Greek people as cash machines run out of

money and banks remain closed.

But armed with the victory, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has thrown a sop to his E.U. creditors by asking his bombastic finance minister to resign.

Yanis Varoufakis took a parting shot as he stepped down.

"I shall wear the creditors' loathing with pride," he wrote.

But Tsipras is still asking Europe for a new deal. The German and French leaders are discussing the crisis in Paris and moments ago Chancellor

Merkel issued this challenge to Greece.

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ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): The principle which guides us, as Francois Hollande has said, it is a principle that we

need solidarity. We have solidarity. We've shown solidarity towards Greece. The last offer was a very generous one during the negotiations.

But Europe can only stick together in this time where we have these problems of migrants and terrorism and so on. Countries have to shoulder

their own responsibility.

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AMANPOUR: So not much give there.

Is it back to the future? Is it deja vu all over again?

Richard Quest joins me now from the Greek capital, Athens.

Richard, you know, everybody, as I say, is sort of facing off again.

Is anybody giving anything at the moment?

What is the mood from where you are?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST: Well, Christiane, to take your analogy of clinging on, one finger was just stomped on in the last few minutes. The

ECB has announced -- European Central Bank has announced it is not going to increase the amount of money that it's put into the Greek banking system.

It's holding it exactly where it is. The significance of that is no new money while people are pulling out the existing money eventually means the

Greek banking system will run out of cash. And there's more.

In a highly technical move, they're going to haircut the collateral. Now basically what that means, just like you and I, Christiane, when we go to a

bank and borrow money and we give us a mortgage, we give our car or we give our home as collateral, they'll only give us so much value of it.

Well, what the ECB says, hang on; Greece assets are worth that much anymore. We're going to haircut the amount we'll lend against.

Whichever way you look at it tonight, Christiane, the screw has been tightened on the Greek economy.

AMANPOUR: And Richard, just quickly, from Europe, they are having to digest the fact that the Greek people gave a resounding "no" to their

bailout.

But it does look like certainly Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande, maybe even him, they're probably going to try to make the Greek government

sweat a bit before turning around -- if they do turn around.

QUEST: They'll do more than make them sweat, absolutely. And it won't just be Hollande and Merkel. You've got the Finns who've lent a fortune

down here. You've got Matteo Renzi, who's got his own domestic problems.

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QUEST: You've got Mariano Rajoy of Spain, who's got an election coming up. This idea that somehow it's maybe one or two of them, not a bit of it.

There's a core in Europe that says Greece knows what has to be done and if Greece won't do it, then they know where they're headed.

AMANPOUR: Richard Quest, thank you very much.

And we're going to drill down and get the views from the three other major capitals of this crisis, from the people who have their finger on the pulse

of their own politics and policies.

In Brussels, Eleni Varvitsioti, a Greek journalist who covers the European capital; in Hamburg, Josef Joffe, editor of "Die Zeit," and in Paris,

Christian Malard, who's a former broadcaster and now a diplomatic consultant.

Welcome to you all. So you just heard what Richard Quest said.

Let me ask you first, Eleni, do they really think in the Greek government that this "no" somehow would buy them more warmth, more capitulation, if

you like, from Europe?

ELENI VARVITSIOTI, JOURNALIST: Christiane, I don't know if they really think that but they surely campaigned for that. That was the main question

and that was a weird question to pose people. It was as if asking someone if you want to be rich and beautiful rather than poor and ugly. Of course

people voted for a "no" when they knew that when the government had campaigned for better terms in an agreement that was already hard to

achieve.

So we are in a situation where people voted no for, I think, many, many different reasons. It won't answer the "no" in a different way. It was a

"no" to all the political establishment. It was a "no" to austerity. It was definitely a strong "yes" for Tsipras, for the -- Alexis Tsipras, for

the Greek prime minister. And I mean, we're in a situation now, I just came back from Athens, where the majority -- the striking majority of young

people voted for this "no."

And I think we have to put our feet on our shoes (sic) and understand that if you're a young person in Greece, you most probably have a grandparent

who has his pension cut. You have a parent who doesn't find a job. And you yourself is really, really hard to find a job in the near future.

So this question encompass all this uncertainty, this rage, this anger and also let's try for something. I mean, there are people who really think

they have nothing to lose, although what is really impressive is that from all polls, 80 percent of people actually voted for the euro.

AMANPOUR: Right.

VARVITSIOTI: And here in Brussels, it was clear that it was actually a question, yes or no to the euro.

AMANPOUR: Well, I'll come back to you in a moment, because there are those who've said that actually the Greek government tricked their people into

thinking this wasn't a major vote on the euro.

Josef Joffe, let me ask you, Chancellor Merkel has led this campaign to try to get Greece to accept the bailout. They have pretty much given the

impression that they are ready and willing to allow Greece -- they don't want it, but they're prepared for a possible Grexit.

Do they now have to quote-unquote, "put up or shut up" or do you think Chancellor Merkel is going to have figure out a face-saving way to let

Greece have what it needs?

JOSEF JOFFE, EDITOR, "DIE ZEIT": First of all, there will be no Grexit, neither enforced nor voluntary. The simple reason which many people don't

understand is that even with a Grexit, Greece still remains in Europe. And therefore it will have access to all kinds of zillions of money from the

so-called structured firm, the cohesion firm, the balance of payments made, so the only thing that will change the spigots where the money runs

through, but not the flow of money, which will go to a country that will collapse unless it gets more money. Merkel knows that; Hollande knows it

and, above all, who else knows this? Tsipras, who's played a very clever game of "Chicken," which is one, he has told Europeans, you know what?

Come and punish us. You'll punish yourselves even more. Do you really want to collapse your economy? Do you really want chaos in the streets?

Do you want another storm on the Bastille? You don't, do you?

But I'll be nice, too. I'll give you Varoufakis, the guy who really showed contempt for you and has riled your souls. I'll give him to you.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Everybody thought that that is what he did, that he threw Varoufakis in as a sop to Europe.

But look, the vice chancellor of Germany has said that Tsipras has torn down the last bridge on which Greece and Europe could have moved towards a

compromise.

Whatever you just said what about the Greek -- sorry -- the German people and the German parliament? Because where is their mood to allow whatever

you said is likely to happen, a constant bailing out of Greece?

Will they allow that, the German people?

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JOFFE: If the German people -- if the electorate had the power right here and now, they would probably vote overwhelmingly "no" the way the Greeks

did. But we live in a representative democracy and the "yes" and "no" comes from Ms. Merkel and a coalition, which commands 80 percent of the

seats in the parliament, in the Bundestag. And Merkel, to repeat the basic point, knows she does not want to have a dead body on her hands, not in

Europe, not in her Europe.

And that's why -- and if you add to that something which nobody has really paid attention to yet, the IMF, which in terms of hardlining, was on

Merkel's side, has just bolted from the coalition. They said, listen, boys and girls, Greece cannot pay. And here's what you're going to have to do.

You'll have to give out about $67 billion in new bailout money; you have to restructure the Greek debts from 20 years' maturity to 40 years maturity,

which means forever. And, by the way, you have to add another $60 billion in haircuts, haircuts for those who are Greek debt.

If the IMF tells you that, that's a resounding victory --

AMANPOUR: Right.

JOFFE: -- for Tsipras, who now has this --

AMANPOUR: Let's -- sorry. Let me just move over to Paris and Christian Malard, because that is where these emergency talks are happening right

now. There's obviously always been a bit of a difference in tone between Germany and France, France slightly more conciliatory.

What do you think is going to come out of this meeting?

And what is President Hollande telling Chancellor Merkel that they have to do right now?

CHRISTIAN MALARD, INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC CONSULTANT: It was clear, Christiane, that this referendum organized at the last minute by Greek

Prime Minister Tsipras brought about some turmoils (sic) inside Europe and inside the Franco-German couple, as we call it. And tonight, the necessity

of this meeting is that to rebuild, to make together, to stick together Hollande and Angela Merkel because you have to understand that in this

couple, Angela Merkel is the leader and Francois Hollande is a follower. And Hollande, as you said, was very conciliatory, was ready before this

referendum to sign an agreement with Tsipras.

But Angela Merkel said no way, no more negotiation. These people have been cheating in Greece. They have been laughing at us. It's enough. We have

to move forward in another way.

So this is tomorrow, this is why the communique of tonight is very clear. Solidarity, of course; we try to solve the -- to help the Greeks solve

their problems. But at the same time responsibility -- I think Angela Merkel and also Francois Hollande, but Angela Merkel especially wait for

credible, reliable decisions, drastic decisions to be taken by the Greeks to get out of their -- what I call financial tragedy or financial inferno

they have been responsible for.

AMANPOUR: Well, here we go again. And I'm going to come back to you, Eleni, because you are our Greek interlocutor here. Everybody is saying

the ball's in your court. Tsipras is saying that to Europe; Europe's saying it back to Tsipras.

Is there a possibility that he can come up with a different proposal that will more meet the European bailout terms, reforms and other such things

that they've demanded?

VARVITSIOTI: Yes, Christiane. The problem here in Brussels, the feeling that we have, the past hours that we're here is that actually they will

make it much harder for Alexis Tsipras to strike a deal.

So I don't know if the result of the referendum will actually make people in Greece happy at the end of the day because if Mr. Tsipras has to go back

to Athens with a deal that is actually the same -- or even worse than what we had 10 days ago, before the referendum, when now our economy is in much

worse condition -- we have capital controls, closed banks -- and actually a nation that is split into two, I don't know if it has any meaning. All

this -- all we went through, because the people here in Brussels seem very upset. They seem to really toughen up their position.

What I told you before, for them, the yes-or-no question was yes or no to the euro. So the trust has been lost with this government. So I think it

will be really hard for Mr. Tsipras to bring back home something that is really acceptable to the 60 percent who voted "no."

AMANPOUR: So, Josef Joffe -- and we only have a little bit of time left -- so very briefly, do you believe that your leaders, including the finance

minister, Schauble, have been too hardline and this has rebounded against them?

JOFFE: I don't think so. They've been really hardline, if they've made real credible threats, the Greeks would have played a much more flexible

game.

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JOFFE: But you see, to repeat the basic point, German threats and everybody else's threats are not credible. It's like threatening a kid

who's robbing the candy shelf at the supermarket with spanking him in front of everybody else and looking like the witch in "Hansel and Gretel."

Nobody wants to be in the position where he cuts his nose to spite his face.

And that's why it is my considered bet that the Greeks have won this game of "Chicken." Wait a few days and you'll see.

AMANPOUR: And Christian Malard, this thing that Josef Joffe is laying out there, wait a few days and you'll see, surely that is the biggest nightmare

for places like France or Spain or Portugal or whatever, which might turn around and say, hey, they did it. They got away with it. Why not us?

What about here in Great Britain? I know it's not in the euro, but it's flirting with Brexit.

MALARD: It's clear that France, which is bad political shape and economic shape, cannot give lessons here, because we might be on the next list, as

you are alluding to, with the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Italians, which are very fragile economy.

So we are not in a position to give lessons because if it happens that Greece has to go out of the Eurozone, I think we have to watch who will be

next. But for two reasons, I think people will try to maintain Greece because strategically, geopolitically, it's very important.

But at not any price. So we will see what will be kept in store in the coming hours, tomorrow.

AMANPOUR: And we'll see what price is not any price.

Christian, Eleni and Josef Joffe, thank you so much indeed for joining us.

And Greeks, as we said, are rejoicing in the "no" or "ohi" vote. But saying no comes naturally there, all the way back to October 28th, 1940,

when the Greek government faced an ultimatum from Italy's Benito Mussolini. He demanded that Greece allow Italian forces to occupy parts of the

country. A resounding "ohi" was the reply. And ever since, Greece has celebrated Ohi Day.

Just ahead, looking back in Tunisia: the wounds of recent terrorism lie on top of the scars of past dictatorship. We ask, has Tunisia changed enough

since the Arab Spring? That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Tunisia, the birthplace of the Arab Spring, is now, quote, "in a state of war." The country's president

has declared a state of emergency; he did that Saturday, following last week's bloody beach massacre, when that lone militant gunned down 38

foreign tourists, 30 of them were British.

Tunisia is struggling to balance its precious freedoms with tough new security measures. As its ugly history of repression is never far from

mind. Thousands of Tunisians are now courageously facing the past in order to try to improve their future. And Nima Elbagir has spoken to some of

them and she filed this report from Tunis.

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NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tunisia's revolution swept away the rule of Zine Abidine Ben Ali and more than five decades of

dictatorship, lighting a spark that fanned flames of popular revolt across the region.

But has enough changed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): They were a group of men. And one of them said, "Leave her to me."

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): "I will make her lose that baby."

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Marsi el-Beded (ph) was three months pregnant when she was brought in for police questioning. Accused of plotting to

overthrow the regime of Zine Abidine Ben Ali.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I entered the torture room. The room itself, just seeing it was torture. It is difficult to survive seeing

it.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Four days of bleeding and she lost her baby. Ben Ali has of course now gone but the men who tortured her, she says, are

still working for the Ministry of Interior and she says have repeatedly cautioned her against speaking publicly about her ordeal.

El-Beded (ph) is one of the thousands who've given testimony to Tunisia's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

In a locked room in an office building in Central Tunis, hundreds of nondescript folders line the walls. These are almost 15,000 victim

testimonies, page after page of horror and heartbreak.

Sihem Bensedrine heads the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It's her job to bring decades of repression into the light.

BENSEDRINE: Our main mandate is to dismantle the old regime system. And it's normal to face obstacles because never, never the old regime people

accept in a fair way to say, OK, we are -- we lost the game. And now it's up to you to build another system.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Bensedrine herself was persecuted by the former dictatorship and she and her commission must now seek country-wide redress.

Under a newly elected government, many of whom were part of the old regime, as Bensedrine prepares for the commission's public hearing slated for later

this year, she tells us she's dealing with the reality that not all of the state's crimes are in Tunisia's pre-democratic past.

BENSEDRINE: We are still using with the same apparatus used during the dictatorship in order to repress people, using the same apparatus to build

a democracy and there is a paradox.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): There are many victims, of course, who can't be there to bear witness.

Zuharia Hijawi (ph) was a cyber activist who dared to call for freedom of speech.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): When he came out of prison in November 2003, he weighed less than 40 kilos. He was a different person

from the one who went into the prison. It took him a while after he came out to regain his strength, to be able to eat and to move. It was even

difficult to hold him because everything in him was fragile.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): He never recovered and two years later, Hijawi (ph) died of a heart attack.

As she leafs through old photo albums, his sister tells us the family is preparing to give testimony on his behalf. The commission, she says, their

only hope for justice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It is not enough that we no longer have dictatorship. That is not enough for me. I want justice for

my brother. I want them to acknowledge how they treated him, that the state had violated our rights.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): For her country's sake, Bensedrine refuses to consider the possibility that the commission might fail.

BENSEDRINE: For the first time in my life, I feel I am building something. I'm not fighting against things. I am building something.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Nima Elbagir, CNN, Tunis.

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AMANPOUR: So Tunisia facing two fronts, trying to beat back the terror of the past and fighting the terrorism of today, all the time hoping that new

security measures won't damage their fragile democratic rights.

As for Britain, the massacre in the sands of Sousse a week ago was the second worst terror attack on British people. Today, I visited the

memorial to the worst-ever attack when 52 British people were killed on London's buses and tubes. And tomorrow on this program, we remember 7/7 10

years later.

But first, a moment of euphoria today. Imagine a beautiful game breaking down the barriers between the sexes, an incredible victory that's a good

result for more than just the victors. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, women's football was once trapped in a realm of relative obscurity with a growing following but little attention.

Well, imagine a world where a quick-fire blitz of goals fires women's football into the spotlight and in the soccer skeptic United States, of all

places. It became a dream come true last night for the American team, who are now three-time world champions after beating Japan 5-2 in a thrilling

World Cup final. We saw the midfielder, Carli Lloyd, score three goals, a hat trick, in the first 16 minutes. And one of those goals from more than

50 yards away.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- start by the USA, (INAUDIBLE). Hat trick for Lloyd.

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CARLI LLOYD, TEAM USA MIDFIELDER: I've had dreams of this, you know, as a younger player, of being a part of a World Cup team and playing in a World

Cup final. I mean, that's every soccer player's dream, to win a World Cup. And we just made history tonight.

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AMANPOUR: And indeed, tens of millions of viewers across the United States tuned in and its growing fandom is not just an American phenomenon. Here,

across the pond, the British lionesses are returning heroines after winning 3rd place. Not even the men's team here has done as well since they won

the cup way back in 1966.

It's another step towards a world where any sport is open to anyone and popular to all.

That's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

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