Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Is London 2012 Legacy on Track?; Debate on Right-to-Die Bill; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 24, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[14:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE), five world championship titles and a six-time London marathon winner, Tanni-Grey Thompson has

enjoyed a glittering career spanning three decades. Born with a medical condition, spina bifida, she's refused to let that get in the way of

becoming a champion.

The former wheelchair racer is one of the most successful disabled athletes in the U.K. and as a British parliamentarian, she's now inspiring a new

generation of Paralympians and a new attitude to disability. (INAUDIBLE) presents her campaigner and all-round national hero. Tanni-Grey Thompson

is tonight's guest host on AMANPOUR.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

DAME TANNI GREY-THOMPSON, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Tanni-Grey Thompson, sitting in for Christiane

Amanpour.

As Rio de Janeiro gets ready to host the Olympic and Paralympic Games in less than a year, the memories of Team TV success at London 2012 still

burns bright here in Britain. The runaway success of Britain's cyclists, Mo Farah's golden track performance, Johnny Peacock sprinting into the

record books, Ellie Simmonds' double gold and my personal favorite, Dave Weir's triumph, winning four Paralympic gold medals.

The team behind London 2012 hoped the games would inspire a generation and the government unveiled a 10-year legacy plan, which includes funding for

each sport, investment to develop Olympic sites and getting more kids active.

I'm proud that the London Paralympic Games welcomed more athletes from more countries than ever before, shattering preconceptions of disability. But

three years on, is our attitude really any different? Is the Olympic legacy on track?

I spoke about all of this with the former Olympics minister, Tessa Jowell, who's now running to be the next mayor of London.

[14:05:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: Tessa Jowell, thank you for joining me on the program. Now you've described the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic legacy as a

failure.

Why is that?

TESSA JOWELL, FORMER OLYMPICS MINISTER: In 2010, the incoming secretary of state for education, with a stroke of his pen, removed what's called the

ring fence from the money that was going to these groups of schools to fund sport.

And that was a disaster. So over time, that money just sort of bled away for other purposes. So by 2014-15, we're back to where we were in 2002, 25

percent of children playing about two hours of sport a week. And that isn't enough.

But as an optimist, I also say that the World Athletics Championships are coming up in 2017 and there is a moment for the government to say we're

going to reinstate that promise that we didn't keep.

GREY-THOMPSON: Well, the funding does make a difference. But do you think also we need to be looking at things like changing teacher training at

junior school levels for 5-11-year-old children are basically being taught physical activity by people who've had four hours' instructions in how to

deliver?

JOWELL: Yes.

GREY-THOMPSON: Is it more than just money that's needed -- ?

(CROSSTALK)

JOWELL: It is. It's making sure the teaching that children get in primary school or in secondary school is of very high quality and I can remember

the days when sport was what was given to children by the chemistry teacher, who said he'd stay behind for a couple of days after school and

kick a ball around.

And that's doesn't cut the mustard now. And that's why, as you rightly say, properly trained P.E. teachers in primary school doing running,

jumping, throwing, teaching hand-eye coordination and beginning to give taster sessions of the sports that children may then develop a real passion

for and discover a talent for.

That is important. But you need money. You need money and commitment to invest in that high-quality training.

GREY-THOMPSON: The Paralympics were a huge success. It was astonishing. I had a journalist who was slightly grumpy about Paralympics (INAUDIBLE)

athletics and he said, is there anyone in the stadium, I said there's 13.

What will those 13 people -- no, no, there's seats 13 that doesn't have somebody sitting in it.

And I think for Paralympians, if felt this changed this moment in time.

Did you get that kind of thing --

(CROSSTALK)

JOWELL: I think there were three things that happened with the Paralympics. I think that stage one was that people bought tickets for the

Paras because it was easier to buy them than it was for the Summer Games. But remember, Beijing sold 5,000 tickets in advance of the Paras in 2008

and we sold 1.2 million. So the tickets were going but they were going as an alternative to the Summer Games.

Then people I think thought they'd buy tickets because they wanted to get into the park and see the park. But then on about day two the sport took

over and people there to watch the athleticism and to watch the sport. So I think that was the extraordinary transformation.

As much as it's hard to expect (INAUDIBLE) change, participating figures, do you think it's unfair to expect the Paralympics to change attitudes

towards disabled people because at the moment, disability hate crime figures are high. There's a lot of distrust of disabled people,

perpetrators, benefits scroungers or taking money out of the economy.

And then that doesn't necessarily fit that well with this image of wonderful Paralympians doing it for their country and being --

(CROSSTALK)

JOWELL: I think that for disability, you know, I think of what was actually done in London, which were very practical things, like increasing

the number of stations with step-free access. And I'll never forget you and I going to Kings Cross to open the new ticket hall and seeing you go

down what looked like a vertical escalator on the basis of the new step- free access at Kings Cross in your wheelchair.

And I thought, this is how you open public transport up to people who are wheelchair users. So I think that's an important program to continue with.

And we just need to normalize disability around our city. And I'm in the running to be the Labour candidate to be mayor. I would put the

normalizing, the environment of London to disabled people very high up my list.

GREY-THOMPSON: And do you think that's something that you can realistically achieve? Because making public transport acceptable, there's

a cost to it. There's political will.

Do you think that is the key to making --

(CROSSTALK)

JOWELL: Well, I think --

[14:10:00]

JOWELL: -- the critical thing is the political will. You have to make choices.

My strategy is to build one London, a city where everybody feels that they have a part and play their part. And therefore making it possible for

disabled Londoners to play their part requires adaptation.

And at the moment, your party, the Labour Party, is going through a period of reflection, looking for a new leader. You've said that the party has

lost the art of winning.

Do you think the party can regroup? Who do you see as the next leader to take the party forward?

JOWELL: Well, I think as things stand at the moment, the party is in a phase of activism. And I think there's a lot of uncertainty about where

this new movement politics, which my campaign is about, is going to take us.

I think it has enormous potential. And I think we should only be delighted that so many young people are joining the party. The next general election

is a very long way off. And I think that we'll see a lot of change between now and then. But if we can begin to grow this grassroots movement quite

different from the top-down politics, male dominated, macho dominated politics of the past, that'll be a very good thing.

GREY-THOMPSON: Tessa Jowell, thank you very much --

(CROSSTALK)

JOWELL: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: You're watching a special edition of AMANPOUR with me, Tanni Grey-Thompson. And coming up after the break, another issue I'm

passionate about, one that quite literally comes down to a matter of life and death. The pros and cons of assisted dying, which is set to be debated

in the coming weeks in the British Parliament. Both sides of the emotional and complex issue -- up next.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

GREY-THOMPSON: Welcome back to the program.

I'm Tanni Grey-Thompson, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

For the first time in nearly 20 years, British lawmakers may soon have the chance to vote on the controversial issue of assisted dying. A bill which

would allow some terminally ill people in England and Wales to end their lives is expected to be debated in September.

Under the proposed new law, patients with no more than six months to live and who've demonstrated a clear intention to end their lives will be

prescribed a lethal dose of drugs on the authority of two doctors.

As a member of the House of Lords here in England, it's an issue I've personally spoken out against. But the arguments on both sides of the

debate are complex and emotional. I sat down with two doctors, Jacky Davis, a consultant radiologist, who's in support of assisted dying. It's

a subject close to Jacky's heart following the death of a brother from terminal cancer.

And Andrew Fergusson from the organization Care Not Killing, a doctor who has worked in medical ethics for over two decades.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: Dr. Jacky Davis, Dr. Andrew Fergusson, thank you for joining me.

Dr. Davis, if I could start with you, as a doctor, your job is to provide lifesaving treatment.

So why do you support this bill?

DR. JACKY DAVIS, RADIOLOGIST: As a doctor, my job is to listen to what my patients want and that may not always be lifesaving treatment. For

instance, people are perfectly able to reject any treatment that they don't want.

And in fact, patient choice, since I was a young doctor, patient choice has become a much bigger feature; 82 percent of the population of this country

want a bill for assisted dying. And I think we should be listening to them.

And the reason I'm listening to them is that I think the current law is broken. We're seeing very sad and really dreadful things happening at the

moment. We've got one person a fortnight going to Switzerland while they're terminally ill to die before their time because they have to be

able to travel in order to go there.

We're seeing 300 people commit suicide while they're terminally ill. And we're seeing a significant percentage of people who are suffering at the

end, whose symptoms can't be relieved. So that's why I support the bill.

GREY-THOMPSON: Dr. Fergusson, you're against a change in law. People would say that you lack compassion.

Do you feel that?

DR. ANDREW FERGUSSON, CARE NOT KILLING: I've certainly been in situations clinically where my first reaction, the first time I was asked to end a

patient's life by the patient, my heart said yes for a few seconds.

And then my head began to say no. And I began my response by saying --

[14:15:00]

FERGUSSON: I can't do that; it's against the law.

And I was very glad to be able to begin my conversation with that. It's not necessary to kill patients on the grounds of compassion. We do not

have to kill them to end the pain.

In the 20 years or so I've been campaigning against this, we've seen a huge shift away from the dying in terrible pain argument towards the autonomy

argument.

And we see this in the U.S. state of Oregon, where 91 percent, the top reason for people requesting assisted suicide there is loss of autonomy; a

little further behind, cannot do the things I want to do anymore; 71 percent loss of dignity.

These are existential questions. They're not hard medical symptoms. And the answer to existential questions lies outside the scope of doctors and

poison.

GREY-THOMPSON: How do you detect people who are vulnerable, who feel that they don't have any choice, who don't want to be a burden to their

families, who are maybe looking at their grandchildren and thinking they want to pass the house onto them? How do we protect those people?

DAVIS: This law is based on the Oregon law, as my colleague here says, which is very, very prescriptive and it has been working in Oregon for 18

years now. It's been adopted by two other U.S. states (INAUDIBLE) Washington and it's being looked at by a number of other states because

it's considered that it's been working safely.

It's directed at terminally ill people who have six months to live, adults who are of sound mind and that has to be adjudged by a psychiatrist if

there's any question about it. So there is no leeway for it to affect vulnerable people who aren't in that situation.

Clearly, if you're elderly and terminally ill, if you're a person with disabilities and terminally ill, you can call on the law. But if you're

not terminally ill, the law is not available to you.

And there's no evidence in Oregon -- in fact, those groups that people are worried out -- the elderly, people with disabilities mentally -- people

underrepresented and the people who've chosen to have assisted dying in the U.S.

So there is no evidence in the jurisdictions where a law that we are being offered, there's no evidence that this is happening.

GREY-THOMPSON: But isn't there a case for better palliative care rather than ending somebody's life?

DAVIS: I don't think the term mutually exclusive at all. And in fact, 90 percent of the people who choose assisted dying in Oregon are already in

palliative care.

But as my colleague has said, there are things that people find very, very troubling at the end of life, like loss of dignity, that we absolutely

cannot address. And that is their choice. We cannot say that's not a good reason at the end of your life to say I want to go a bit earlier.

But I think it's really important to emphasize, these are not people who want to die. These are people who want to live. But faced with imminent

death, which they are, because they don't take this medication until the end comes, they want control over their death. And we feel that that is an

appropriate choice to give them.

GREY-THOMPSON: Dr. Fergusson?

FERGUSSON: The data from Oregon is incomplete. There's no compulsory reporting. There's no proactive or reactive investigation by authorities.

The figures arising year-on-year, fewer than 5 percent of the people who end their lives under the Oregon act of seeing a psychiatrist or a

psychologist, we've talked about the -- some of the issues in the neighboring state of Washington. One of the top reasons is a fear of being

a burden financially, emotional, a care burden to family and to society.

What we should be looking at are countries very much like our own, Belgium and the Netherlands just across the North Sea, where, in less than 15

years, there have been the most shocking developments.

What scares me most about Belgium, where 6 percent of all deaths now are by euthanasia or assisted suicide, what scares me most is the way it's just

become so normalized in the way we think. It's just another therapeutic option. That's a cancer of despair.

DAVIS: I think it's quite wrong to compare what's happening in the (INAUDIBLE) countries with what's on offer here. What's on offer here is

absolutely based on the law as we've seen it in Oregon for 18 years. There has been no slippery slope, no extension of the law.

Psychiatrists are called in only if the two doctors are worried and people often fool at that stage in terms of their criteria. So they may not even

get to a psychiatrist because the two doctors have decided that's not right.

And once the two doctors have checked the eligibility criteria, which are very strict, then there's a judicial review, where the judge has to come

in, review the case and say whether that's right.

I would say to the opponents of this law, what are you going to say to the people who are going to Switzerland, if they can afford 12,000 pounds, who

are committing suicide, as my brother did with terminal cancer?

At the end, they should have that choice to say I've had enough. My life is completely miserable now.

And we don't kill them. They ask for the medication.

[14:20:00]

DAVIS: They have to be able to take it themselves. This is not euthanasia. And I would also contend very strongly it's not suicide,

because these people don't want to die. They just want control in the face of death.

GREY-THOMPSON: Those in favor of changing the law say that there are enough safeguards in the bill.

Are you comfortable with any of those safeguards?

FERGUSSON: I think this is the best presented bill that we've had. And, although it's a private members' bill, lacking government support, lacking

the support of any political party or political leader, lacking the support of the medical profession, I think if we're not careful, we're going to

listen to all this and accept it.

I'd like to pick up on the question of loss of dignity. It's the loss of the sense of dignity that is the problem. And it's our duty as family,

carers, professionals to do all we can in a holistic sense to restore that sense of dignity.

DAVIS: When I hear that, you know, MPs are against this and doctors are against it, first of all, I would say, we don't know what doctors think.

The BMA has never surveyed its 150,000 members, so we don't know.

And the surveys that we've done suggest that probably about a third are for it a third are against it and a third think we should be neutral on the

subject.

We're seeing big changes around the world. The Canadian Medical Association is now assisting legislation in Canada. The big California

Medical Association has moved to neutrality on this.

It's something that will happen. And I think it really behooves doctors to get involved, to make sure that there are safeguards because the other

thing is there are no safeguards at the moment. People are going abroad to die. They're committing suicide.

Probably about 1,000 people in this country are being assisted by doctors to die every year behind closed doors. We don't know what's going on.

GREY-THOMPSON: Dr. Fergusson, you were shaking your head there. Do you think --

(CROSSTALK)

GREY-THOMPSON: -- to support this?

FERGUSSON: It's at least 2-1 against this. And in the 20-25 years I've been involved in campaigning against this, there's been a much stronger

shift towards an opposed position.

I don't think there's a third of don't knows in the middle. The interesting thing is that the closer doctors are to the reality of dying

people, the more strongly they're opposed.

So in palliative care, 94-95 percent general practice, geriatric medicine and so on, all the Royal College is with the position opposed to this.

We cannot just have a mantra of patient choice. The best health care decisions come when it's a dialogue of two experts, the doctor, the health

professional, who's an expert in her specialty, and the patient, who's an expert in two things: how he feels and what he wants.

And when both of those are having an honest dialogue, almost all the current requests -- and there are few for euthanasia in this country --

simply disappear. Those fears are dealt with and those concerns go away.

GREY-THOMPSON: Well, there's one thing we know is the debate will go on and on.

Dr. Davis, Dr. Fergusson, thank you very much.

FERGUSSON: Thank you.

DAVIS: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: Coming up on this special edition of AMANPOUR, kicking through the glass ceiling. Britain's Lionesses roared their way to win

third place in football's World Cup this year. My interview with the team's captain is coming up next.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

GREY-THOMPSON: And finally tonight, women's football was once trapped in a realm of relative obscurity with a growing following but little attention.

Not anymore: at this year's World Cup, millions tuned in to watch as England's Lionesses returned as heroines after winning third place. Not

even the men's team has done as well since they won the cup way back in 1966.

England captain Steph Houghton joined me as we celebrated a world where any sport is open to anyone and is popular to all.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: Well, Steph, thanks for joining us. Now the success of the World Cup was amazing.

Has it finally sunk in yet what the women's team achieved?

STEPHANIE HOUGHTON, MAN CITY AND ENGLAND FOOTBALL CAPTAIN: I think it's not until the last few weeks I think we've realized how much women's

football has grown in this country and how much sport we had back home and World Cup was an amazing experience for all of us. And to come home with a

bronze medal, we're obviously very proud of ourselves, that all the hard work we've put in has been worth it.

GREY-THOMPSON: Growing up over the years, boys have always had heroes in football --

[14:25:00]

GREY-THOMPSON: -- to look up to. But do you think we're not at a point in women's football that we actually have heroines that young boys and girls

can look to that they want to be the next Steph or whoever is on the team?

HOUGHTON: Yes, I think so. When I was growing up, David Beckham was always my hero and now it's nice to know that you have people messaging you

and when they come to the games, they come to Man City games and the (INAUDIBLE) you're their hero, it's a very special feeling and see people

with your name on the back of your shirt, I mean, it just makes your job worthwhile and it makes you enjoy it even more.

GREY-THOMPSON: In my time involved in sport, lots of people say, well, they don't play football like the men. But it feels like we're at this

real turning point but it's accepted that just women play amazing sport.

HOUGHTON: Yes, I think so. I think we always said that the Olympics was a watch (INAUDIBLE) softball and I think this year we've topped that. And

the fact that we can get record crowds and Wembley and we can get (INAUDIBLE) England game against Germany, Wembley and draw in all the

30,000-45,000 crowds respectively, it's great for the sport. And, yes, of course, women's softball is totally different than men's football and we

all know the differences between ball for them, both for us we know that we wanted to come -- we wanted to compete in our one level and we wanted to

make sure that fans could come and watch us week in and week out. And you can see the change already from the women's World Cup. For example, for

our club, we've drawn over 2,000 fans every game in our home games. And that's great to see.

GREY-THOMPSON: And if you look at (INAUDIBLE) side of football, you know, there is still some issues and if you look at the recent case of Jose

Mourinho and Eva Carrera and just some of the sexism that she's faced as a woman in football, have you faced some of those challenges as well? Is

there -- still needs to be a lot more pushback on the attitude towards women?

HOUGHTON: Yes, I think I'd like to see that the attitudes are changing towards sexism in football and I think the World Cup's a prime example. I

think there was as many men watching as women. And yes, there's still some improvements to make and, yes, in my career I faced sexism in sport.

But I think you can use it as a motivation as a player to prove people wrong. Actually football whether you're male or female.

GREY-THOMPSON: And if you look at soccer in the United States, it's huge in terms of endorsements and coverage.

What more needs to be done in Britain to get the finance into the game, to really develop the sport?

HOUGHTON: I think we've made great improvements in that sense. And over the last few years, I think first and foremost we want to improve our

league and for the last 3-4 years, it's been improving every year. And the likes of Manchester City and Chelsea have turned their clubs professional

and allows players to train every single day and they get looked after by professional coaches and as soon as we get the standard of football even

better than what it is now, then the whole frame of commercial partners will come in and support the women's game. And you've seen over the last

few years we have so many great sponsors for England and for Manchester City to allow us to keep playing the football that we're playing.

GREY-THOMPSON: Well, Steph, the best of luck with your career and thank you for joining us on the program.

HOUGHTON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREY-THOMPSON: That's it for the program tonight. I'm Tanni Grey- Thompson. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END