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Amanpour
Europe's Biggest Refugee Crisis Since World War II; Obama Secures Enough Congressional Support for Iran Nuclear Deal; Iran's Chief of Parliament on Nuclear Deal; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired September 04, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): This week: wild fluctuations in the moral compass of Europe, heartbreaking scenes of desperate families
trying to reach safety across the continent while politicians fail to unite on a solution to this human tragedy.
And in the United States, the Obama administration secures enough votes to pass the Iran nuclear deal through Congress. World exclusives with Iran's
parliament chief and the U.S. secretary of state.
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JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: . this agreement is not based on hope or trust. This agreement is based on verification and on very specific steps
that Iran has to take.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
And this week, the full horror of the human tragedy unfolding in Europe was revealed in one shocking image: the body of a small Syrian child, washed
onto a tourist beach in Turkey. He drowned as his family tried to reach Greece.
Many U.K. newspapers featured the image, which has helped turn public opinion. Germany continues to take the lead, welcoming trainloads of
refugees while Hungary closed its main train station for a time and later stopped trains leaving in chaotic scenes as desperate families tried to
make their way to Western Europe.
This week, Germany's commissioner for immigration, refugees and integration, Aydan Ozoguz, told me that all of Europe could and should do
more to help.
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AMANPOUR: Commissioner Ozoguz, welcome to the program.
AYDAN OZOGUZ, COMMISSIONER FOR IMMIGRATION, REFUGEES & INTEGRATION, GERMANY (through translator): I would like to thank you.
AMANPOUR: Commissioner, we have all been watching the video and seeing how Chancellor Merkel is being viewed as something of a hero around Europe and
in the Middle East for agreeing to take so many refugees.
But how long can Germany continue to have such an open heart and a welcome mat down?
OZOGUZ (through translator): Germany cannot take in the refugees on its own. We need to find a European policy and we need to come up with a
common European asylum policy.
If we are able to manage that every European country can take in refugees, according to its abilities, then we can help very many people.
AMANPOUR: What, though, do you hope to be able to achieve to make that happen?
We're sitting here in Great Britain, which only takes 4 percent, compared to Germany's 40 percent.
What is it going to take to get Europe to share the burden fairly?
Do you have any hope?
OZOGUZ (through translator): We are a bit sad that the United Kingdom is not sharing the same mood as in Germany when it comes to refugees. Germans
are horrified by these pictures about the refugee crisis and they say, we want to help the people --
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OZOGUZ (through translator): -- who are really in need, who are running for their lives from war zones.
We know that most of these refugees don't want to flee their countries but they are forced to do so. And many of the refugees have actually stayed
near their home countries. There are far more refugees in Jordan or Lebanon, for example, than here in Europe.
AMANPOUR: You say the Germans are horrified; you yourself and your family came over more than 50 years ago to Germany.
What must it be like for Germany to be watching these eerie scenes of these huge numbers of migrants, who are crawling under barbed wire, scenes that
we haven't seen of people actually fleeing your own country, Germany, during the Second World War?
OZOGUZ (through translator): In Germany, we are experiencing a great willingness to help people. The last time there were such high refugees'
numbers in Germany was at the beginning of the 1990s, when there war in the former Yugoslavia.
Since then, there were few refugees and we have actually decreased the number of asylum seekers' shelters. So we have to now build up these
shelters again. But many older German people tell me that they are reminded of the fact that they were once refugees themselves after World
War II.
AMANPOUR: Commissioner, isn't it true that, no matter what Europe decides, no matter how generous Germany is, these people are going to still keep
coming as long as, for instance, the Syria war is continuing?
And your leadership doesn't look to be at all willing to intervene to stop the Syria war.
Don't you also have a responsibility?
OZOGUZ (through translator): The only thing we can do to stop people coming is that there is peace in their countries. But that is not
something that we can achieve. And of course, this is difficult for Europe and even for the USA. So this is not a simple task to achieve.
But we need to see that the people who come to us for help do not have to put themselves in danger. Many countries have to say that we will help you
if you come to us. But of course, we are hoping that peace will return to these regions.
AMANPOUR: Commissioner, Germany is being generous.
What would you say to the British leaders who are not, who are deporting people?
What would you say to the Hungarian leaders, who are erecting barbed wire fences and watching people crawl under them like animals?
What would you say?
OZOGUZ (through translator): Europe's common values will not be strengthened if we build fences and walls within Europe or around Europe.
And it is absurd that a fence suddenly ends.
We ask ourselves, is this populism?
It is a fact that, in many countries, the governments have to see how much this influx of refugees strengthens the extreme Right. In many countries,
the extreme Right is on the streets and protesting.
So we have to hold to -- so we have to come together and we have to show that we will defend these core values and beliefs and that we will help
refugees and that we are not overwhelmed.
Yes, we are challenged. There is a lot to do. But we can overcome this. We are living in very rich countries here in Europe. You will be surprised
to see how many people are willing to help and to assist these refugees, to help these people from Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq.
There is a very positive mood in this country. But we have to strengthen this. And we have to support this.
AMANPOUR: Aydan Ozoguz, the German immigration and refugee commissioner, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
OZOGUZ (through translator): Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And when we come back, the view from across the pond: my interview with the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, on the root cause of
this crisis -- war in Syria and the rampage by ISIS -- and, of course, the Iran nuclear agreement. President Obama now has the votes to seal the
deal. That's all up next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the special weekend edition of our program.
In a major victory for President Obama, the White House has secured the votes it needs to pass the Iran nuclear deal through Congress. And just as
that news came through, I spoke to the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry as he prepared to deliver a major speech to try to get the American people
on board.
Kerry also agreed that Europe's refugee crisis would continue as long as the Syria war rages. And he hinted a major policy change could be underway
involving ground forces to defeat ISIS.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Secretary Kerry, I want to start by saying thank you very much for giving us this interview ahead of this major
address. And obviously the stakes are incredibly high.
Tell us what you hope to accomplish in the hour that you have to speak to the American people.
KERRY: Well, I hope to make it clear, Christiane -- first of all, thank you for having a moment here.
I hope to make it clear that this agreement, which has been entered into by the P5+1, six nations coming together, and Iran, is an agreement that will
set out very strict requirements that Iran needs to adhere to -- which they have accepted -- and will, in fact, close off and provide assurance to the
world that the pathways are closed off to a nuclear weapon.
Iran has declared they never want to seek one, that they will not seek one. But that has to be put into a structure where it is affirmed by specific
actions that are verifiable. That's what this agreement does.
AMANPOUR: Secretary Kerry, this whole debate has been described as one of the most divisive in the United States in modern history. It involves
American security, Israeli security, concerns in the region of the Middle East. And the American people seem to have succumbed to the very divisive
debate and the coverage of it.
A recent CNN poll, the latest we've taken, just about a week or so ago, shows that 56 percent of the people who you hope to convince today say the
Congress should not approve it.
KERRY: Well, the latest poll I saw said that 52 percent of Americans support the agreement. But it is correct for you to say that it's been
divisive and I regret that it's been divisive.
That's one of the reasons why I'm here today: it is to dispel the myths and layout specifically and factually what this agreement does and doesn't
do.
And I hope -- and I think we're seeing this, incidentally, as senators are looking at this very, very closely, examining it; we had another senator
announce today her support for the agreement, Senator Mikulski.
So there's an increasing march of people who are looking at it closely, judging it by its facts and then deciding that they do support it.
AMANPOUR: You just mentioned Senator Mikulski and that now brings you to 34 votes apparently for approval of this deal.
What does that mean in terms of whether it sinks or swims?
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KERRY: Obviously 34 votes are enough votes for the president's veto to be able to be upheld.
But we're not -- that's not the way we're approaching this. We want anybody and everybody hopefully to be able to vote for it. We're going to
continue to try to persuade people, up until the last moment. And our hope is that that number will grow obviously.
AMANPOUR: And, Mr. Secretary, ISIS, as we've seen, has just destroyed a 2,000-year edifice in Palmyra and it continues its rampage against human
life as well. A huge and important strategy session in Aspen in Colorado recently concluded that the only way to defeat ISIS is through a ground
force.
Is there any indication that the United States is moving any closer to gathering some kind of coalition, Western, regional or both, to defeat ISIS
as you have said it needs to be defeated?
KERRY: Well, it does need to be defeated and it has made that more clear putting its exclamation point on that on that reality, which we all knew
anyway, but in the last days with the beheading of the professor who guarded the antiquities as well as with the destruction of the antiquities
and its own threats and movements within the region.
This is a very dangerous group and we need to -- we need to increase the pressure on them.
And we are talking about very specific ways to do that with other countries in the region.
You are correct; there will need to be people on the ground. I am convinced there will be at the appropriate moment. And I believe that that
pressure will increase and is increasing, even as we're talking, in many different ways.
AMANPOUR: Well, you've just raised the idea of a ground force. I've got to ask you, you're talking about the pressure; you say it will happen.
You're convinced.
Who? Who will take part? The United States?
KERRY: Well, I think -- no, the president has said that -- at least for the time being, the president has made it very clear that American troops
are not part of that equation. And I don't think he has any plans to change that.
But I do know that there are others who are talking about it. There are people in the region who are capable of that. And I believe that everybody
understands -- there are also people in Syria, by the way, already who are capable of that and there are Syrian oppositionists of the regime who are
also capable.
So I believe that, over the next months, with our meetings in New York coming up at the United Nations General Assembly and otherwise, this will
be very much a topic of conversation; it already is a topic of conversation. And there will be increased focus on ramping up the effort
with respect to ISIL.
AMANPOUR: Secretary of State John Kerry, thank you so much for joining us at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, just ahead of your big
speech to the American people on this Iran deal. Thanks for joining us.
KERRY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: I also got the view from Tehran this week, when Iran's powerful parliamentary chief joined me, surprisingly conciliatory. Ali Larijani
said their "Great Satan" slogan could be consigned to the dustbin of history. And this nuclear deal could lead to better cooperation with the
United States on other regional issues.
He joined me for an exclusive interview while he was on a special trip to New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Dr. Larijani, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining us from New York today.
ALI LARIJANI, SPEAKER OF IRAN'S PARLIAMENT (through translator): OK. It's good to be here. I'm ready to answer your questions.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Larijani, can you tell me, as speaker of the Iranian parliament and a former chief nuclear negotiator, do you support this deal
that has been reached with the United States and other world powers?
LARIJANI (through translator): In general, I think this is an acceptable agreement. There might be some shortcomings in it, but overall I think
it's a good deal.
AMANPOUR: The Supreme Leader has not yet said whether he fully backs it or not; he's praised the negotiators.
But will it be accepted by Iran and the institutions?
LARIJANI (through translator): I cannot tell you for sure now. We have to look into the positives and the negatives of the deal. But I can tell you
that the parliament will pass its judgment in a month.
AMANPOUR: Well, that time is around about the time that the U.S. parliament, the United States Congress, will also come to its judgment.
What is your view of the incredibly divisive debate inside the United States on this deal?
LARIJANI (through translator): Yes, I've heard about those hot debates going on in the U.S. Congress. And I believe that there are some people
over there who are exaggerating things --
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LARIJANI (through translator): -- and they are saying things like the deal is hugely in favor of Iran.
But anyway, I should tell you that the Americans continued to bully us even during the negotiations. But ultimately -- and thank God, the Islamic
Republic of Iran managed to fulfill some of its demands and to put several things in the deal which are in our favor.
And it is a beginning for a better understanding for other issues as well, I mean, the regional and international issues. And I think because there
was not such a proper understanding in the past, that there were some challenges between us.
AMANPOUR: You speak fairly positively. Yet the head of the Revolutionary Guard has today called the United States still the Great Satan, despite
this deal.
Do you believe that?
Is the United States still the Great Satan for Iran?
LARIJANI (through translator): You know, it was the U.S. -- I mean, the former president of the U.S., that started different wars in my region,
which resulted in huge damages.
So I just wanted to remind you that it is because of such actions that people in Iran are using those terms or are pessimistic about the
relationship between Iran and the U.S.
And as I said, if the U.S. chooses to adopt a more realistic approach and attitude towards Iran, then those habits and those terms will naturally
change.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Larijani, how quickly do you expect sanctions to be lifted against Iran?
And can you understand the very serious concerns that people in the United States, legislators in the United States and governments around the region
in the Middle East, they are very worried that if so much more money pours into Iran it will be used to fund the kinds of operations that they all
find very, very threatening?
LARIJANI (through translator): I believe that there is a number of neighbors, Iran neighbors, that have their own internal problems and they
are trying to hide those problems behind a kind of Iranophobia.
Let me ask you a question; in the last 200 years, has Iran invaded another country?
Have we invaded or attacked an Arab country?
But actually, it was Iran that was attacked by an Arab country. I mean, by Iraq and by Saddam Hussein. And when it happened, many Arab countries
supported Saddam Hussein. But let me tell you that Iran does not have any intention to attack any other country.
I mean, if they really want to have a lasting security and political stability, they have to enter a kind of cooperation with Iran.
And let me tell you that this is Islamic Republic of Iran's strategy, to have cooperation, coordination and collaboration with its neighbors.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Larijani, the speaker of the Iranian parliament, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
LARIJANI (through translator): All the best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And when we come back, we return to the story of the week: the worst refugee crisis in Europe since World War II. Coming up, imagine the
benefits of seeking asylum -- no, not those kinds of benefits.
What do what do Freddie Mercury, Albert Einstein and this Sudanese supermodel have in common? Find out after a break.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world without refugees. It's a word with its bright lights dimmed, shutting out the transformative
brilliance of Albert Einstein or Sigmund Freud or the sultry seduction of the German actress Marlene Dietrich.
Without the beauty of the Sudanese model Alek Wek or the art of Anish Kapoor, a world without the music of Haiti's Wyclef Jean, Sri Lanka's MIA
or Zanzibar's Freddie Mercury.
Today we're seeing a world full of refugees in the biggest movement of people since World War II. Madeleine Albright sought refuge twice during
those dark days and to this day she remembers the warm reception that was offered to her and her family when they were most in need.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECY. OF STATE: I spent the war in England when the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia. They were very welcoming to refugees.
And then when the Communists took over in Czechoslovakia, we went to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And there, of course, she went on to make history and become America's first female secretary of state.
Now across Europe, many political leaders seem unwilling to tell the real story of what benefit this human tide could be. But their people are
leading from the front.
We've seen how the German government and its citizens are offering a warm welcome, including one of the country's biggest football clubs, Borussia
Dortmund, which invited more than 200 refugees to their match last week.
Meantime, across the water in Iceland, 12,000 nationals have begged their country to increase the refugee camp from its paltry 50. Many Icelanders
are offering rooms in their own homes.
After all, who knows who could be sleeping in your guest room? The next Bob Marley, Salvador Dali or Gloria Estefan.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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