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France, U.K. Open Doors to Refugees; France's Legacy of Accepting Refugees; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 07, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: live from Paris as France and Britain accept thousands more refugees. My exclusive with

the E.U. foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, urging the reluctant rest to follow suit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEDERICA MOGHERINI, E.U. HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: We are rich. We are in peace. We have the duty to save and protect people

that are fleeing from war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): But as refugees continue to walk their way to safety ahead the former French foreign minister and founder of MSF, Bernard

Kouchner, live.

And signing checks but closing doors, what's up with some of Syria's closest neighbors?

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Paris as finally the tide turns on taking in

refugees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): The first choice is to face the influx of refugees with humanity and

responsibility.

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AMANPOUR: That was French President Francois Hollande, saying that he's taking in 24,000 as across the Channel, British Prime Minister David

Cameron, too, has bowed to public pressure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: . we are proposing that Britain should resettle up to 20,000 Syrian refugees over the rest of this

Parliament. In doing so, we will continue to show the world that this country is a country of extraordinary compassion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Leaders spurred on by the indelible sight of a modern yet Biblical exodus, men, women and children simply walked from Hungary to

Austria this weekend and ordinary people all across the continent are showing their own compassion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Like these Germans in Dortmund, applauding the arrival of refugees to their city. Angela Merkel continues to lead the

European response.

ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): I'm happy that Germany has become a country with which a lot of people outside of

Germany actually associate with hope. That's a very positive picture.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Not so in Hungary, as so many are still walking from there and others are stuck in transit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: As Europe tries to rally a united front, the E.U. foreign affairs chief, Federica Mogherini, joined me earlier today with an

impassioned plea for the continent to step up and recognize the new normal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Federica Mogherini, welcome to the program.

MOGHERINI: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: I'm here in Paris and, today, the French president has said that France will take in 24,000 refugees.

Is that enough?

And do you believe that all of Europe will similarly respond?

MOGHERINI: I hope so. It is now several months that the European Commission has been proposing all member states to act united, in

solidarity, among Europeans and towards refugees to face this crisis that is urgent but is clearly here to stay.

It is not going to go away anytime soon. And the sooner we realize it, as Europeans, the better we manage to face it and to manage this

crisis.

So I welcome the announcement made by President Hollande and I expect all other member states to act in the same courageous way, saying basically

these are refugees, these are not only migrants.

Most of them are refugees coming from Syria, coming from Afghanistan, from Iraq; these are people facing war, escaping from war, trying to stay

alive.

And we have the moral and legal responsibility and duty to welcome them.

AMANPOUR: That may be very true and you may very well say that you hope all countries act as France has done or as Germany is doing.

But it's not very likely, is it?

I mean, right now, you have a major difference of opinion and of acceptance between Western Europe and Eastern Europe; even Great Britain is

refusing the notion of quotas and will only take as many as they say they will take and no more.

MOGHERINI: The point is that by now all member states, no one excluded, realize that this is a crisis that not one single member state is

facing but all of Europe and not even only the European Union is actually concerning also member states that are not members of the European Union,

like in the Balkans.

One thing is for sure: we need a European reaction and --

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MOGHERINI: -- the system that we have adopted in the past months, that of a voluntary decision on how many refugees to welcome, has proven to

be long and not really responding to the urgency of the most we need to take.

So I believe that everybody now has experienced the limits of it. And so it's facing the necessity to move forward.

AMANPOUR: Again, as it stands right now, it looks very, very unlikely that that might happen.

But there's also a proposal that seems to be floated, that perhaps some countries will be allowed to pay cash to opt out of this idea of

taking in any refugees or the number that you would like them to take in.

Is there a buyout plan?

MOGHERINI: There might be; and the plan that we are going to adopt in Strasburg the day after tomorrow, there might be a proposal to have

sanctions somehow to member states that would not be complying to the proposals that are adopted.

But again, we're going to adopt the decision as a commission tomorrow in Strasburg; tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, we're going to present it

to the European parliament and then obviously all of the European Union, which means the council and the parliament, we need to show it political

support to it.

Because, you know, everybody turns to Brussels when we face humanitarian tragedies, like the ones we have seen in these months, asking

for action.

When then the proposals to act come from Brussels and go to the capital cities of the 28 member states, they are the ones called to take

responsibility and decisions that are coherent with the emotions that their leaders express when they see the cruel images of people dying at sea.

So my call is for all European leaders, not just in Brussels, but in all different corners of Europe to take decisions that are coherent with

the emotions they express.

AMANPOUR: Do you think, though, that these images and the emotions that you're talking about, which have galvanized Europeans and, frankly,

the world over the last several days, particularly the picture of Aylan Kurdi face down on the shore.

Do you fear that this is a moment of opportunity that will fade and that backlash in various countries could overtake the feeling of generosity

in some of those countries that are demonstrating generosity right now?

MOGHERINI: You know, this is a sad story because in April, in March- April, we reacted to almost 900 people dying in the Mediterranean and that is -- that wave of emotion and sadness that produced the first concrete

decisions and proposals from Brussels.

Sometimes even political leaders need, let's say, an emotional push, which is sad, in my opinion. But if we do not manage to act united and

fast in front of these tragedies, in front of these human tragedies, then what would move more courageous decisions, if not this?

The point is that people die, children die, women die at sea and at land even when we don't see the pictures. We should remember that this is a

tragedy that is going on now for years; it's going to stay probably for the next coming months and years. And we'd better face it rationally.

That's why after emotions, together with emotions, we need concrete, coherent, rational political decisions in the sense of solidarity and

responsibility because European Union was built in decades after the Second World War on the experience of that war, that made many of us Europeans

flee and leave Europe.

Now we should remember our story and act following the same values and principles that have allowed us to build a continent in peace and

prosperity. We are rich. We are in peace. We have the duty to save and protect people that are fleeing from war.

AMANPOUR: It's an impassioned plea, Ms. Mogherini, and many people probably feel very much like you do.

But let's say the prime minister of Hungary, he doesn't feel like you do. In fact, he says this is a German problem.

Let's talk about the Gulf Arab states and the countries closest to these poor Syrians fleeing the war, who have taken almost no refugees

whatsoever.

And let us talk about the United States and Canada, two very rich countries who've taken almost no refugees.

What do you say to them?

MOGHERINI: First of all, let's think of Turkey, that is hosting 2 million refugees. Let's think of Jordan, that is hosting almost 1 million

refugees. Let's think of Lebanon, that is hosting more than 1 million refugees. This is in terms of person paid to (ph) that population, huge

proportions.

We have clearly a European side of the story. This is a European crisis. But it first of all a regional crisis --

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MOGHERINI: -- all around Syria and not only Syria but also Libya and Africa.

But it is clearly also an international crisis, a global crisis.

This is why I believe the words of Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon today are important. This is important that we work closely as we do every day,

every single day, with the UNHCR because we need to face this globally.

I see that there are some countries, even far away from the Middle East, that are starting to take responsibility, that are starting to offer

to host some of these refugees.

We also have to act together as an international community to put an end to the war in Syria. This is going to be the only way to stop the

dramatic situation of millions of people inside Syria, in the countries surrounding Syria or in Europe or elsewhere in the world that are fleeing

the war.

AMANPOUR: Well, that was going to be my next question.

Some of these countries who are not taking refugees, not the ones neighboring, which are overflowing as you've just mentioned, but the Gulf

states, all those countries, countries you visited, such as Saudi Arabia, et cetera, who've been paying and backing any number of the different

militants there and now not taking the poor people who are suffering because of this war. So there's that point.

And then further to what you just said, do you have any hope that even the most generous and the most activist Europeans, Westerners, let's say

Chancellor Merkel, who's going to end the war in Syria, Ms. Mogherini?

Nobody has offered any plan for that.

MOGHERINI: Christiane, if I can call you by name, the last time we met in person, it was in Vienna, when we were finalizing the Iranian deal,

if I remember well.

And I believe that what we reached in Vienna in July is not only a non-proliferation agreement but could also be -- could be; we're not there

yet -- but could also be opening the way for regional powers around Syria to take a different kind of approach and help the international community

to come to an end, to help to solve the crisis, to solve the war in Syria.

The only way forward there is not Europe or the United States or one single country putting a plan on the table. We have had tens of plans on

the table.

The point there is creating a regional and international framework for the different parts in Syria to come to a Syrian-led transition that would

allow the country to live in peace finally. It's more than four years that the Syrians are facing what they're facing.

And it's clear to everybody, I think, that obviously there is no future for Assad in his own country.

But on the other side, that all the parties have to find a way of defining the future of their own country. I'm going to see the U.N.

special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, this week; I'm convinced that only through the U.N.-led dialogue we could push altogether but for real,

seriously, for a solution of the crisis and the conflict in Syria.

AMANPOUR: Federica Mogherini, the E.U. foreign policy chief, thanks so much for joining me today.

MOGHERINI: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: But of course, the war does continue; 4.5 years long, assault by Assad and by ISIS and that is causing the people to continue

fleeing.

Now Hungary, the Hungarian government continues to be Europe's poster child for the worst refugee response. But there was once a time when

Hungary, along with Austria, bravely championed cross-border rapprochement. They opened their border on August 19th, 1989, for a pan-European picnic.

It was a brief East-West truce before the Berlin Wall finally came down.

After a break, the former French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, joins me on spurring this country to welcome refugees from a different war.

Lessons learned from the Vietnamese boat people. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, live from Paris, where, as we've been reporting, the news is that France will finally take in

thousands of refugees.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Now this country's been here before, in the late 1970s taking in 130,000 so-called boat people fleeing Communist rule

after the Vietnam War and welcoming Bosnian refugees who fled their war throughout the '90s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: But during this great test for Europe, France has lagged far behind its neighbor, Germany. And joining me now is Bernard Kouchner.

He's the former French foreign minister and cofounder of Medecins sans Frontieres.

Welcome back to the program.

BERNARD KOUCHNER, FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER AND COFOUNDER OF MEDECINS SANS FRONTIERES: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So finally, after all these terrible pictures, we've heard your president say, OK, France will open its doors.

Is 24,000 enough?

KOUCHNER: Not at all. In two years, 24,000 in two years. And meanwhile, yesterday or the day before yesterday, Germany, 17,000 in one

day. So it is not enough. But well, this is a progress. This is a belated progress but this is a progress.

AMANPOUR: You heard Ms. Mogherini and everybody's now trying to figure out what Europe should do together.

Can Europe do anything together? There's so many different views.

KOUCHNER: (INAUDIBLE). But yes, it's a big problem. Only four countries from Central or Eastern Europe are refusing. We'll see because

the -- well, the heads of states, meeting is for the 17th of September. I think so. Well, before the end of the month.

So we'll see. But she also said that sanctions would be proposed and so --

AMANPOUR: That was news there --

(CROSSTALK)

KOUCHNER: -- and the president, Francois Hollande, today said that it will be a necessity. And it will be of course not only a duty but it is

the law. We signed the Geneva Convention and we have to take care of the refugees and make the difference. And she insisted, Mogherini, on that in

between the economical migrants and the people flooding from war and from the barbarian attitude of the ISIS people.

So this is very important to explain to the people. But (INAUDIBLE) in Europe and all over Europe, a sort of scare about --

(CROSSTALK)

KOUCHNER: -- of fear. So anyway, what Francois Hollande said was a progress.

AMANPOUR: Now --

KOUCHNER: Limited progress.

AMANPOUR: -- limited progress.

You have called for a sort of an Ellis Island somewhere in the Mediterranean; in other words, some place to be able to process all these

tens of thousands of people.

How realistic is that?

What do you mean by that?

What's your proposal?

KOUCHNER: Today, the French president said, yes, we need centers. That is to say one, two, three centers; I don't know because a flood of

migrants and refugees, people seeking from asylum are from Turkey to Greece and from Libya to Italy mainly.

So we need some -- if an island was --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- available --

KOUCHNER: -- available, some islands are available. And we need them already. We need it in the China Sea. It was so far 12,000 kilometers

from France and we did it in sending seven French boats.

AMANPOUR: You're talking about the Vietnamese boat people.

KOUCHNER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And you were the instigator. You basically commandeered a boat and went out there in the late '70s --

KOUCHNER: I had the honor.

AMANPOUR: So tell me, what are the lessons learned from that? Because these people have now been here for several generations and in the

United States and are really great citizens.

KOUCHNER: Absolutely, completely French, they are all working --

(CROSSTALK)

KOUCHNER: -- the little babies. But -- and we took in that time 150,000 of the Vietnamese.

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KOUCHNER: And in the beginning, it was impossible. This is never impossible. And Mogherini and also said (INAUDIBLE), she said that there

is a moral duty. But there is also a law duty --

AMANPOUR: A legal duty.

KOUCHNER: -- a legal duty, of course, a legal -- and the legal duty is to respect the --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Why cannot --

(CROSSTALK)

KOUCHNER: -- public opinion. This is not Henri (ph), the sad picture of this baby dying in the -- I mean, in Turkey, the beach, but it's also

because there is the beginning of sort of movement in France. We are welcoming more or less -- and you've seen the pictures of these people

coming to Germany.

It was a fantastic lesson --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: It was heartwarming.

KOUCHNER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: So why can't the leaders tell the story of what you did for the boat people for instance, how, yes, it was difficult; yes, there were

tens of thousands of them.

But look, we did it and they are wonderful citizens of our country --

KOUCHNER: -- the lesson to apply now, because this is possible. And to heartbreak the hearts of the politician is a bit difficult, more

difficult than the normal people.

AMANPOUR: Well, to break their heart may be difficult. How about stiffening their spine?

Because as President Hollande said, this is not going to end. And so did Ms. Mogherini, until the war ends.

KOUCHNER: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: The president has said we're going to potentially strike in Syria; the British may, if they can get it past Parliament.

KOUCHNER: OK. But they didn't say so exactly. He said sort of reconnaissance flights. This is the beginning. But we don't need any

reconnaissance. We are working with the Americans --

AMANPOUR: What do we need?

KOUCHNER: -- we need to bomb but not to bomb the Syrian population. And this is very difficult because ISIS people are hiding in between or

behind the civilian population. So to bomb is certainly not enough.

But this is just to show the will of the French population. We have to stop these barbarian activities.

AMANPOUR: What about this idea that if you help the refugees, it simply encourages them? In other words the pull factor?

KOUCHNER: I know the pull factor by heart. We did it with the pull factor in (INAUDIBLE) in Vietnam (INAUDIBLE) Communism. But it was also

the liberation war. Unfortunately, they liberated their country under the Communist Party. But -- and it was also said as a pull factor, we

succeeded and will succeed in helping the migrants coming, not only from Syria but also Iraq and also every -- look, Lebanon. Early two country,

they are now receiving more than 1 million -- close to 1 million and a half Syrian people.

And what about the Prussian (ph)? We didn't react. I don't say that we are to react more facing the Prussian exodus. But, well, we did not.

AMANPOUR: Well, the tide is turning a little bit. Thank you very much for joining us, Bernard.

KOUCHNER: Thank you, Christiane Amanpour

AMANPOUR: Thank you so much.

And just a note: we've shown before how many of the world's most extraordinary people were in fact refugees. And here's another reminder:

can you live without Apple? You may have had to if Steve Jobs' father, a Syrian, hadn't been granted residence in the United States.

It does make you think and so does the fact that today the United States has only taken in just under 1,500 Syrian refugees, over 4.5 years.

And after a break, we imagine the other rich countries which are doing even less. Syria's Gulf neighbors, closing their borders and their hearts.

That's next. We're live from Paris. Stay with us.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as we've reported, this week in Europe has started with a pledge from two leaders, President Hollande here in

Paris and Prime Minister David Cameron in Britain just across the Channel, to take in more than 20,000 refugees each over the next few years.

Germany has also pledged billions of dollars and continues to impress with a hero's welcome that it's been giving the refugees. And this picture

sums it all up, shoes for kids, for families, for anyone who needs new footwear after such a long march to freedom.

Germans are literally opening their arms to people from thousands of miles away. But imagine a world where Syria's own neighborhood is shunning

their brethren, not Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon, which are bursting at the seams, taking in and helping nearly 4 million Syrian refugees. No, the

richest of the rich Gulf Arab states, who've taken in approximately zero. That is according to Amnesty International.

Never mind their passionate pleas for the Syrian victims and their funding various militant groups and fueling the war that sent desperate

Syrians fleeing for their lives. Reports say the Gulf states could house up to 2 million refugees if they chose to.

And what about the United States or even Canada? Countries with big hearts, deep pockets and a habit of projecting their humanitarian values,

unwilling to actually help end the war so far that would stop this exodus. The United States has put out the welcome mat for a total of 1,434 Syrians

since the war began 4.5 years ago.

Again today, the United Nations' secretary-general Ban Ki-moon stated the painfully and shamefully obvious in an interview, that the world has

and still is failing Syria.

That's it for our program tonight. We close with a beautiful shot of the lit-up Eiffel Tower from the land of fraternity, egality (sic) and

freedom. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.co, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye

from Paris.

END