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U.S. Ambassador to U.N. on Syria Criticism; Ukraine's Top General on Russia in Syria; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 14, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: Britain's prime minister visits Syrian refugees in Lebanon and confirms that he'll seek

approval from Parliament to strike ISIS in Syria.

Reaction to the war and the refugees fleeing to Europe from the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Plus, Russia building bases in Syria and on Europe's Eastern Front? Ukraine's army commander sends a plea to President Vladimir Putin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIKTOR MUZHENKO, UKRAINIAN CHIEF OF GENERAL STAFF (through translator): I would suggest to stop escalation of the conflict, withdraw his troops from

the sovereign country and go back to the time when the Ukraine and Russia were good neighbors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

After record numbers of refugees flooded in over the weekend, Germany and Austria are now slowing the flow with temporary border controls.

And after a crisis meeting in Brussels, E.U. ministers announced 40,000 refugees from Greece and Italy would now be relocated. This as the

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker insists on mandatory quotas to share 160,000 refugees around Europe.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): There are still hundreds of thousands of others needing homes. These are the latest, landing in overloaded rubber dinghies

on the Greek island of Lesbos today despite the risk, because yesterday, 34 people drowned; 15 of them were children when their flimsy boat capsized

close to the Greek coast.

Most are escaping 4.5 years of war in Syria, a war that's killed 250,000 people and displaced half the country's population.

The American general overseeing the fight against ISIS says that it will take years. This as the Pentagon finally admits intelligence showing

Russia is planning a military base in Syria to help Assad. I spoke to America's ambassador to the United Nations moments ago and she told me the

Russian moves are complicating a political solution to end that war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Power, welcome back to the program.

SAMANTHA POWER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Good to be back.

AMANPOUR: We're right here in the midst of the most almighty crisis in Europe, a humanitarian crisis and a political crisis.

What do you make of what's going on with the refugees in Europe and the fact that Europe is trying to impose mandatory quotas?

Is that something that U.S. administration agrees with?

POWER: Well, it is extremely complex, as you know, when you have 60 million refugees in the world as a whole more than in recorded history and

12 million people displaced from Syria. It's going to place tremendous burdens on every country, first and foremost, those countries that

immediately surround Syria, who have shouldered so much of the burden up to this point.

And we just hope that Europe can do its fair share and we're in close touch with European leaders. We're looking at the upcoming U.N. General Assembly

as a venue in which leaders will come together to talk both about refugee slots, the issue that you raised, but also money because one of the reasons

that so many of these desperate families are voting with their feet is that the rations have been cut in the region because the financial needs are

very much outpacing what countries have been willing to put forward.

So there's also a financial piece of this, in terms of caring for refugees, in the region.

AMANPOUR: General John Allen, the American general overseeing the fight against ISIS, said that this exodus is going to continue as long as this

war continues and that, at the current pace, it could go on for a long time.

Is the United States ready to make this, you know, about Assad as well as about ISIS as most people think it should?

Or is it still focused just on attacking ISIS in Syria and Iraq?

POWER: Well, I think you heard the president speak to this on Friday, on September 11th, where he made very, very clear that as long as Assad is in

power and as long as Assad continues the brutal tactics that he's employed from day one of this crisis, a crisis that began simply with political

protests and people in Syria just demanding basic dignity and rights for their families, that's no winning solution --

[14:05:00]

POWER: --- against ISIL. And so the strategy of doubling down on using military force against civilians, as the Syrian regime has done

consistently throughout the war, and as Russia potentially appears to be embracing is something that's going to move us further from a political

solution that would, again, stem the flow of people and potentially allow people to begin to return home.

So Assad cannot be part of a solution, even if one only focuses on ISIL. And needless to say, from the standpoint of stability in the region and the

welfare of civilians inside Syria, Assad can't be part of the solution because he gases his people; uses barrel bombs against them, is responsible

for one of the worst torture campaigns, it seems in modern memory.

So one has to walk and chew gum at the same time with ISIL and work a political solution so that Assad is not continuing again to attract jihadis

to the Syrian theater.

AMANPOUR: Well, it looks like -- and I'd like to get your view and information on this. It looks like the Russians are trying to walk and

chew gum at the same time but on Assad's side.

We've heard from the Pentagon today that intelligence shows and confirms the reports that we've had for the last more than two weeks, that a lot of

Russian personnel and military equipment, including tanks and other such things, are going in, perhaps, according to the U.S., to form a forward

operating base.

What is your assessment of what Russia is doing?

Is it going on in Assad's side?

POWER: Well, we've seen the same reports, of course, and more. And it certainly does appear for now that they are doubling down on behalf of a

regime, notwithstanding the fact that every day I'm in the Security Council, they talk a lot about there being no military solution to this

conflict, the importance of these political talks.

So we are engaging them. And, again, as the president said on Friday, this is not a winning strategy. Doubling down on a regime that gases its

people, that barrel bombs, that tortures people, who it arrests simply for protesting and for claiming their rights, that's just not going to work.

I mean, even if you were Machiavelli and all you cared about was ISIL, to support a regime like this and to not take account of the views of the vast

majority of the Syrian people that want to go in a different direction, is not going to either bring peace or actually succeed in defeating terrorism,

which is what President Putin says his priority is.

AMANPOUR: You can see, because I know you're reading the newspapers back in the United States, that there is a growing and loud chorus of criticism

against the Obama administration in some very influential corridors.

For instance, "The New York Times," a column has just said that "American interventionism can have terrible consequences, as the Iraq war has

demonstrated.

"But American non-interventionism can be equally devastating, as Syria illustrates."

What is your answer to that? Because that is now becoming a predominant criticism of your administration.

POWER: I think we're worried less about the criticism than on what we do in the here and now, again, to try to broker a political settlement.

You know, many of the critics are very, very capable of looking at the situation on the ground and kind of rightly lamenting where we are.

I mean, President Obama's a critic, right?

You can't look at 12 million people being displaced from their homes and desperate families washing up on shores and be satisfied with where we are.

I think the challenge is to find what is the policy tool that's going to make things better. And that has proven very, very challenging.

The United States has provided $4 billion worth of humanitarian assistance to try to cater to the needs of those who have been displaced from this

monstrous conflict. We support the Syrian opposition and have for a very long time. We've supported a political track.

But we've not been joined by Russia or Iran or, of course, the Syrian regime in wanting seriously to engage in political negotiations. So I

think our focus is what is the tool that will work now to make things better.

Looking out at recent history in the region, it's not obvious that going to war against the Syrian government is going to bring you to the place that

all of us want to get to, which is a more peaceful, stable Syria where people can just live without the threat of barrel bombs or terrorists at

their doorsteps.

AMANPOUR: And yet, again, many, including in the U.S. national security establishment, are saying that the only way this is going to end is by

ground forces, whosever they may be. But it's ground forces and not from the air. And in terms of trying to raise an opposition force, we're

hearing only like 100 or so have been trained and people are coming after you as well.

Fred Hiatt of "The Washington Post" has said, "The fact that -- "

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AMANPOUR: "-- the woman who wrote the book on genocide, Samantha Power, could apparently in good conscience stay on as U.N. ambassador, lent

further moral credibility to U.S. abdication."

How do you answer that?

POWER: Again, I'm just focused on General Assembly's coming up. We're trying to get more money for those refugees. There's a political track

we're trying to get going. Russia and Iran, you know, maybe the place really where one should lodge much of that criticism for supporting a

regime that is carrying out these monstrous attacks against civilians and fueling, whether wittingly or unwittingly, the rise of terrorism.

I, like the president, am just focused on what is going to make things better in the here and now. And it's not obvious, again, until there's a

fundamental shift in the calculus by President Putin and by the Iranian regime to see that this approach of thinking that you can just wipe out

whole communities and think that that is going to help you deal with a terrorism problem, that approach is just not going to be productive.

And that is the shift that needs to occur.

AMANPOUR: Let me just switch gears for a moment because you are also promoting a campaign to free and empower women, including the Free 20

campaign, women political prisoners. And we have images of them on the corridors of your mission there, just opposite where you're sitting.

Why have you chosen this campaign at this time?

And give me the reason for some of the 20 whom you've chosen to highlight.

POWER: Well, Christiane, you might remember 20 years ago in Beijing, when then-first lady Hillary Clinton famously said, "Women's rights are human

rights; human rights are women's rights," we're at the 20th anniversary. And at the upcoming General Assembly, which is the 70th anniversary of the

U.N. itself, more heads of state are gathering this year than any time in recent memory, including President Putin, President Xi from China, Prime

Minister Modi from India. It's going to be a remarkable gathering. And there is a celebration of the 20th anniversary of Beijing and there's a

lot of backslapping going on. And of course much progress has been made in terms of women's representations in parliament, in terms of girls. Primary

education now being roughly equivalent to that of boys around the world in developing countries.

Progress has been made. And yet in so many countries around the world, the voices of women are being silenced. Women who would have so much to offer

as a check or balance to bad government policy, as an exposer of corruption, just as part of the media, a press that is needed to hold

governments accountable.

So rather than say that, what I just said and making it an abstraction, we've just chosen to highlight and to profile 20 very specific women in

countries like China, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, Egypt, Iran and tell their stories and see if we can activate global public opinion to actually move

beyond the kind of abstractions of women's empowerment to the cases of very specific individuals.

And these 20 stand for thousands more who are languishing in jail rather than contributing to their societies.

AMANPOUR: An incredibly important mission. Ambassador Power, thank you very much for joining me from the United Nations.

POWER: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now that list of female political prisoners in the Free 20 campaign includes the Ukrainian pilot, Nadya Savchenko, who's currently

imprisoned in Russia on what her side claims are trumped-up murder charges. She's expected to attend another court session tomorrow. Go to

amanpour.com to see our e-mail interview with Nadya behind bars and on hunger strike.

Coming up, a closer look at the Ukraine-Russia conflict. An exclusive interview with Ukraine's top military commander, Viktor Muzhenko. That's

next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

While the refugee crisis dominates the political agenda in Europe, that other war on Europe's Eastern Front between Ukraine and Russia continues on

a low boil.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): As he's doing in Syria, President Putin is building a military base near the Ukraine border. And President Poroshenko warns

that he remains a major threat, even though Poroshenko says he's feeling a little better now about peace, better than ever following a reportedly

successful meeting this weekend between the nation's foreign ministers.

So far, the United Nations says nearly 8,000 people have been killed in the conflict and more than 17,000 wounded since it began 18 months ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now it is rare to hear from the Ukrainian military. And tonight, my exclusive interview with the chief of general staff for the

Ukrainian army, Viktor Muzhenko. He joined me earlier from Kiev.

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AMANPOUR: General Muzhenko, welcome to the program.

VICKTOR MUZHENKO, UKRAINE'S TOP MILITARY COMMANDER (through translator): Good afternoon.

AMANPOUR: General, your president, Poroshenko, seems very worried about Moscow's intentions.

Do you believe, from what you're seeing on the ground, there could be a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine?

MUZHENKO (through translator): We are looking at different options of how the situation can develop in the east, including the full-scale Russian

aggression. We have plans according to each plan and we are prepared to react to all the threats from Russia.

AMANPOUR: But what kind of threat do you see right now?

MUZHENKO (through translator): Today we can hear and we have information about the regular Russian troops in -- on the territory of Lugansk and

Donetsk. We can see a reformatting (ph) of some military units and presence of Russian troops, including the regular troops and also equipment

of military weapons. And this is a potential threat for the Ukrainian side.

AMANPOUR: Is the Minsk accord holding?

Is the cease-fire working?

And what do you believe is President Putin's military strategy right now?

What do you think is the Russian strategy for Ukraine?

MUZHENKO (through translator): At the moment, the cease-fire is holding. Before the 29th of August, when the cease-fire started, the shelling -- the

number of shellings was 8,100 or up to 150 per day. And now on average it is 8-10 per day; for example, today, there haven't been any at all.

This allows to hope that the cease-fire will hold.

AMANPOUR: Can you tell me whether you have noticed what Reuters is reporting in an exclusive report, that Russia, they say, is starting to

build a huge military base near the border, near the village of Soloti?

Do you have intelligence on that?

MUZHENKO (through translator): Yes, we have this information. The creation of this base near Belgrade, it is for several thousand military.

This is one more confirmation of the aggressive plans of the Russian Federation.

AMANPOUR: What do you say to them when they just deny it? The Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov says none of this is true.

MUZHENKO (through translator): Sergey Lavrov is forced to deny the information that is coming. We can hear this information. It is coming

not from media but also operative sources and from intelligence.

AMANPOUR: Are your forces, General, prepared to face off such a threat, should it materialize?

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MUZHENKO (through translator): Yes, Ukraine military armed forces are quite equipped and enough in order to react to the military threats to

Ukraine.

But also we need help with military equipment and machinery, tanks, heavy weaponry. We don't have enough intelligence means, communication means.

And marine forces and a lot of resources have remained in occupied Crimea.

AMANPOUR: Have you got enough help from your allies?

MUZHENKO (through translator): We receive help from many countries, different countries. We are very thankful. Especially we thank American

government and people. But they said Ukraine needs much more help, including those things that I have just mentioned.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about what you think will happen on the ground if sanctions are removed; already some European leaders, the French president

is saying he hopes sanctions can be removed if the Minsk cease-fire accord is fully implemented.

Is that going to help?

MUZHENKO (through translator): I think this can trigger the escalation of the conflict and the development of the aggressive Russian policy towards

Ukraine.

AMANPOUR: I want to go back to a battle that you obviously know very much about last year, the battle of Ilovaisk. That was for Ukraine a disaster;

you were encircled and lots of troops were killed.

You blamed bad intelligence and you said that about 90 percent of the intelligence you received this time last year was just false.

Tell me about that, because obviously you got a lot of criticism for that incident.

MUZHENKO (through translator): The Ilovaisk tragedy was a real tragedy in modern Ukrainian history, a lot of people died. That's true.

But intervention of Russian military -- and it was really intervention, open military aggression from Russia -- and did not allow us to realize

those, to implement those plans.

Yes, it is true, we did not have enough information; some information was not true and this is also to do with the disinformation campaign from

Russia. And they were successful in this in many instances.

Today we learned a lot of lessons. Now we have much more intelligence information and we are capable to react better to the -- all the changes in

the circumstances.

AMANPOUR: What would your message be to Russia, to President Putin right now?

MUZHENKO (through translator): If I had the possibility to address Putin, I would suggest to stop escalation of the conflict, withdraw his troops

from the sovereign country and go back to the time when Ukraine and Russia were good neighbors.

Unfortunately, now we cannot be hoping to have such a neighbor country.

AMANPOUR: General Viktor Muzhenko, chief of staff of the Ukrainian army, thank you very much for joining us.

MUZHENKO (through translator): Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So a stern message leveled at Russia's long-time ruler.

And after a break, fresh criticism for a new leader. Imagine a world of hard Labour for women. Britain's new Labour Party leader had barely dusted

off his victory speech when he found himself in a dust-up over personnel. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, this evening we've reported how Europe is caught between unprecedented pressures from the war on the Eastern Front to

the refugees coming up from the south.

Throughout, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has led the way steering the continent through these troubled waters, showing Germany's humanitarian

face to hundreds of thousands of desperate refugees while also leading the diplomatic charge against an aggressive Russia.

It's hard to think of a world without women like her setting the agenda these days.

But imagine a world where women aren't even in the shadows, the shadow cabinet, that is, because here in Britain, the new Labour Party leader,

Jeremy Corbyn, followed up his landslide victory this weekend by leaving a decidedly sour taste in the mouth of women, who had expected more of him

because, although the quantity of the women in his shadow cabinet isn't in question, the quality of their roles is.

Under Corbyn, Labour's five most senior positions are a woman-free zone. When asked why so few had made it to the top table, Corbyn simply walked on

by the journalist trying to figure out why the party that prides itself on winning the women's vote has made such an obvious oversight -- and in 2015,

no less.

That is it for our program tonight. And remember, you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END