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Russian MP Defends Moscow's Actions in Syria; U.S. Claims Afghans Responsible for Airstrike that Hit MSF Hospital; Amal Clooney Calls for Sanctions on Maldivian Government; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 05, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: NATO orders Russia to stop bombing Syrian civilians. A Russian MP and Putin supporter joins

us live from Moscow.

Also the U.S. changes its tune, blaming Afghan forces, not its own, for the devastating strikes on MSF in Kunduz.

And later in the program, she got an Al Jazeera journalist out of jail. Now Amal Clooney takes up the cause of the imprisoned island president, the

first democratically elected leader of the Maldives. And she joins me on set for an exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMAL CLOONEY, ATTORNEY: President Nasheed's imprisonment is unjust and illegal under international law. And what we received from the U.N. is a

full vindication of all the legal arguments that we made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

The United States has once again accused Russia of pouring gasoline onto the civil war inside Syria as it continues its campaign against ISIS. And

the U.S. and NATO have ordered Russia to immediately stop attacking Syrian civilians and opposition forces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE) Al Jazeera journalists narrowly escaping a bombardment emerges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, having last week said that Russia doesn't consider the Free Syrian Army as terrorists,

now is casting doubt on the very existence of the FSA and a legitimate Syrian opposition force.

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SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): They talked about the Free Syrian Army, but by now it's a phantom structure. At least

I've asked John Kerry to give us some information.

Where is this Syrian free army?

Who's in charge of it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And previously on this program, the leader of the opposition told us they had 70,000 FSA fighters trying to fight against Assad and ISIS

and those have been hit in the Russian campaign.

Meantime, the head of the defense committee in Russia's Duma, its parliament, says that volunteer troops may soon enter the battlefield,

something President Vladimir Putin was asked about in an interview last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translator): Russia will not participate in any troop operations in the territory of Syria or in any

other states. Well, at least we don't plan on it right now. But we are considering intensifying our work with both President Assad and with our

partners in other countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So now we have a rare chance to hear from President Putin's supporter and member of parliament, Vyacheslav Nikonov, who joins me again

from Moscow.

Welcome back to the program, Mr. Nikonov. Thanks for being with us.

So tell us --

VYACHESLAV NIKONOV, RUSSIAN MP: Hi, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Hi, again.

What is going on?

If indeed you're trying to fight ISIS, why do we have all these other groups being hit, the FSA and civilians?

NIKONOV: Well, first of all, the goal of the Russian action in Syria to support all forces on the ground which are fighting ISIS. It turned out

that the only forces to do that are the Syrian army, the Iraqi army, the Kurds and Iranians.

And so Russia organized, together with four other countries, the coordinating center in Baghdad, which is also coordinating the strikes,

among other things. So it is -- the strikes are well calculated by experts from different countries, who are there on the ground.

As for talks about Russians killing civilians, the first reports came even before the strikes. And after the strikes, we saw many images, but those

images were recognized as being taken in other places at other time; for example, American airstrikes in Syria, Israeli airstrikes in Palestine,

Saudi airstrikes in Yemen.

By far, they did not present a single image of really victims of the Russian --

AMANPOUR: Well, Mr. Nikonov, let me just stop you there for a second --

NIKONOV: -- were there for months -- yes?

AMANPOUR: Yes, just simply because --

[14:05:00]

AMANPOUR: -- some of those pictures you're talking about, people making collages and putting wrong pictures on the television, but certainly we

have heard from civilians, certainly in Homs, certainly those first attacks by the Russian forces and there were civilians struck.

But the next question to ask you is, is Russia going to abide by what NATO and the United States is now telling you to do and that is to stop

attacking these opposition forces and indeed the civilians?

NIKONOV: Russians -- Russian forces -- airspace forces are not attacking civilians, to the best of my knowledge. And to the best of my knowledge,

it's really very hard to find what is called the moderate Syrian opposition on the ground.

According to all the intelligence estimates, around 60 percent of forces fighting with the Assad government in Syria are either ISIS or Al Qaeda or

Jabhat Al-Nusra.

Another maybe 20 percent are Muslim Brotherhood. Up to 10 percent, really what can be considered secular opposition, and the rest are just city

gangs.

So what you are talking about, this opposition, moderate opposition, is really not very visible there. And I think Mr. Lavrov was absolutely right

because the Russian side has been asking for the telephone number of this forces for months.

AMANPOUR: Well, as I said --

NIKONOV: We didn't get it.

AMANPOUR: -- as the Free Syrian Army has told us and so has their political group that they have about 70,000 there and they are reachable at

the end of a phone if you care to reach them. And they're saying that you have been getting the coordinates from Assad to not just go against some

ISIS targets but against anti-Assad opposition as well.

Can I just ask you, if you were so keen on attacking ISIS, why didn't Russia join the anti-ISIS coalition that's been in the air since last year?

Why did Russia not join that fight for over a year now?

NIKONOV: First of all, because this coalition is absolutely inefficient and the only progress it's achieved in course of the year was the expansion

of the area of ISIS control, maybe dozenfold.

On the other hand, the coalition the United States is heading is composed of the countries like, for example, Saudi Arabia or Qatar, which are not at

all or not so much interested in hitting ISIS rather than hurting the regime of Assad or hurting the Shiites.

It looks like that the American-led coalition is not fighting ISIS. That's how it looks from Moscow.

AMANPOUR: Well, obviously there are two massively clashing visions of what's going on.

But can you explain to me then -- because actually it was Sergey Lavrov and President Putin, who also talked about bringing all sides on board. So you

mentioned Qatar, Saudi Arabia, everybody in a kind of a contact group.

How do you envision President Assad stepping down?

Or do you not?

NIKONOV: Well, I don't know. If you have a name of a person who can substitute him immediately without causing real trouble in Syria, I would

like to hear that name.

AMANPOUR: So that's in -- so that's it for the long term?

I'm trying to get a sense of whether you envision, after the bombing campaign, that President Assad, after what's apparently now a transitional

period that everybody's signed up to, will eventually step down.

Do you see that happening?

NIKONOV: I don't know. It's not for Moscow, for Washington to decide. It's up to the Syrian people to choose their leadership. If they choose

Assad, let be it.

If they are going to choose someone else, OK.

If you have some better plan, please provide us with a plan or give us some names with whom we can talk.

Even from the Syrian opposition, we are really interested in getting information about those people because we have tried to contact them for

many months and we couldn't reach them because we just don't know who those people are.

AMANPOUR: Again, Mr. Nikonov, it's really odd, because they've been to Moscow and they've talked to your leadership. So we're all talking at

cross-purposes here. But we appreciate you being on our program and we would like to have you back again, if that's all right.

NIKONOV: Thank you so much, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Vyacheslav Nikonov, thank you so much indeed for joining us from Moscow.

Now, the fall of the Afghan city of Kunduz to the Taliban last week has been likened to the shock --

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AMANPOUR: -- fall of Mosul to ISIS last year. The Afghan government has raised its flag again in the center of the city, but fierce fighting with

the Taliban continues on the outskirts.

Meantime, the tragic aftermath of the U.S. airstrike on a hospital there that killed 23 people continues.

The U.S. general, John Campbell, who's the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, today offered deepest condolences for the deaths as

the United States now says that it was Afghan forces, not American forces, who are under attack and called for that AC-130 gunship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN CAMPBELL, COMMANDER OF U.S. FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: We have now learned that, on October 3rd, Afghan forces advised that they were taking

fire from enemy positions and asked for air support from U.S. forces. An airstrike was then called to eliminate the Taliban threat and several

civilians were accidentally struck.

This is different from the initial reports, which indicated that U.S. forces were threatened and that the airstrike was called on their behalf.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The hospital was run by the aid group, Medecins sans Frontieres, and they have not changed their tune, calling the attack a war crime and

accusing the United States of trying to pass responsibility.

Joining me now from Brussels is the MSF president, Meinie Nicolai.

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AMANPOUR: So, Ms. Nicolai, what do you say to the response from the U.S. general today?

MEINIE NICOLAI, MSF PRESIDENT: Well, there's different elements here. The first is that for the first time we've heard the American military

admitting that the strike that hit the MSF hospital on the 3rd of October was from U.S. fire. So that's the first thing.

The second thing that we see is that there's been a change in description of what happened on the 3rd of October in two days' time several times. So

it changed from being a tragic incident to collateral damage and now the responsibility of the Afghan government.

We hear now that the U.S. admits that it's their fire and that they dropped the bombs to a full functioning hospital. And even if you work in a

coalition, you remain responsible for the targets that you hit, so that's the first thing we want to see.

And the other thing we'd say, there's no justification whatsoever to target a hospital that works under the Geneva Conventions, that delivers medical

aid to victims of a conflict close to the front line. And this attack is an attack to that foundation of humanitarian work, meaning Geneva

Conventions and humanitarian law.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Ms. Nicolai?

NICOLAI: Yes?

AMANPOUR: Ms. Nicolai, I hear you; I just want to ask you this.

They obviously do not say that they did it deliberately. So when you say to attack a hospital is a violation, of course, it is, but they didn't --

they say they did not do it deliberately.

You say you gave them the coordinates and tried over and over again to ward off any kind of strikes. We've had no responses to that and they say all

of this will be investigated by the U.S., by NATO and by the Afghan government.

Is that satisfactory to Medecins sans Frontieres?

NICOLAI: No. So I repeat, the coordinates of this hospital were well known. They were given and it's a hospital that functions for five years.

The discrepancies that we've had in the narrative on what happened on the 3rd of October does not give us any confidence on the independent

investigation that has been announced.

We call and we are even more calling today -- it seems to be more critical after this discrepant narrative that we've heard -- for a full transparent

and independent investigation on what happened because we can say it was not deliberate, but what we do know that it was a precise and repeated

bombing of a functioning hospital that worked under Geneva Conventions and this is a violation of humanitarian law.

AMANPOUR: Meinie Nicolai, such an awful tragedy. Thank you so much for giving us the MSF statement today after the U.S. general made his.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: As the human toll grows in both of these crises, Syria and Afghanistan, history and heritage also remain under threat.

In yet another vengeful act, ISIS destroyed another part of Palmyra's ancient treasure; the Arch of Triumph, once a wonder, is now a ruin.

After a break, a natural wonder on the verge of disappearing. The Maldives' former first lady and human rights lawyer, Amal Clooney, appeals

for the release of the first democratically elected president and champion against climate change. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The Maldives in the Indian Ocean have become a tourist mecca with their white sands and clear blue seas.

But beneath this veneer of paradise lurks a troubled history of suffering and political repression.

The country's first democratically elected president, Mohamed Nasheed, who has also been a guest on this program, is now languishing behind bars,

deposed and accused by the new government of terrorism offenses. He became known for holding his cabinet meeting underwater to highlight the danger of

climate change for the Maldives and was the subject of a film, "The Island President."

His attorney, human rights lawyer Amal Clooney, today added her voice to a strong U.N. statement unequivocally condemning his incarceration and

demanding his immediate release.

I've been speaking to her and also to Nasheed's wife about the prospect of that happening any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Amal Clooney, welcome to the program.

And Laila Ali, welcome to the program.

LAILA ALI, WIFE OF MOHAMED NASHEED: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Today you received some good news. The United Nations in this case declared that your client has been unjustly arrested.

Is that the basic bottom line?

AMAL CLOONEY, ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Christiane. We filed a case with the U.N. back in April, seeking recognition that President Nasheed's

imprisonment is unjust and illegal under international law.

And what we received from the U.N. is a full vindication of all the legal arguments that we made and a complete rejection of every argument that the

government made on their side.

AMANPOUR: If you've won in the international court of opinion and the U.N. court of opinion, is he going to be out?

Do you expect to see your husband out, Laila?

ALI: I certainly hope so. But the government has gone on record saying that they do not feel obliged to abide by this decision of the working

group.

AMANPOUR: I'd like to play for you a sound bite from an interview that I did with your husband, just as this all was blowing up in his face, this

case.

Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED NASHEED, FORMER PRESIDENT, MALDIVES: I was forced to resign. The military, the perpetrators threatened me. They threatened to kill me, my

children, my family. They also threatened to go on rampage in Male. So I had to resign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So your husband was clearly feeling under pressure that you, your family would be harmed if he didn't step down from the presidency.

How bad was it for you?

ALI: On the day of the coup, when I woke up, it was just any other day. But then I realized he had not come to bed. So I went looking for him.

And I was told he had gone to the defense headquarters, to the school there.

So I had got to my children now. Then we decided with everything going on, not to go -- not to send them to school.

But everyone kept telling me to leave the house in the presidential official residence. But I decided as long as I was being protected by them

not to leave.

But about 8:30, I saw that the guards had sat down and opened the gates. So I left and went to a safe place.

AMANPOUR: So, Amal, as you take on this case as a human rights case, as a violation of what the U.N. says is international justice, what are the

logical next steps?

What happens if the government doesn't let him out of jail?

CLOONEY: So the United Nations panel that decided the case said not only that there were violations but they said the only appropriate remedy now is

for him to be released and actually also granted compensation.

So what we need is support from diplomatic partners to, for instance, now move from the public statements that have been made in support of our case

to more --

[14:20:00]

CLOONEY: -- concrete measures. And that would include sanctions, individual sanctions like travel bans and asset freezes against individuals

who were responsible for the malicious prosecution and unjust conviction that he has faced.

AMANPOUR: So the country's vice president, when contacted by CNN, wrote something for CNN in which he said the following, "Nasheed," the president,

"is now serving a jail time for what many, even within his own political coalition, saw as a dangerous assault on the independence of the

judiciary."

So, of course, this all began with the firing of a judge.

What evidence is there that Nasheed fired him, that this then raised to the bar of terrorism, because that is what the government has accused him of,

of violating terrorism laws?

CLOONEY: Well, there alone, in that view, like standing on the other side is every third party observer who's looked at the case, including Ban Ki-

moon, who recently came out and said Nasheed should be released. That's because there was no evidence presented.

And the government wanted to go after him, wanted to remove him from the political scene. In fact, they initiated the case three years after the

incident involving the judge and -- but just weeks after one of the key politicians in the Maldives had switched sides, from the government team to

Nasheed's team.

So -- and the U.N. noted this in their opinion, saying, well, this timing is suspicious. So they wanted to go after him. They chose this incident

and they stacked the deck completely in their favor, removing all of his due process rights. This was the best shot they had at showing there was

any evidence at all.

And if you read the judgment, there's simply no evidence cited in at all and that's what the U.N. has now confirmed.

AMANPOUR: I'm going to assume that you, Laila, chose Amal Clooney because you need some heft and some publicity, because you're talking now about the

world putting pressure on this government because you've had the judgment from the U.N.

How much do you think Amal's celebrity or high profile can help you?

And how much do you think that you can use it to leverage some kind of justice in this case?

Let me ask Laila first.

ALI: Well, Amal is an extremely good lawyer to begin with. Her celebrity status came later, which a lot of people forget. So with her celebrity

status, if she was not a good lawyer, I don't think we would get very far. I think it's her qualifications, her professionalism that is getting us

where we are.

CLOONEY: We're grateful for the -- to media for taking an interest in it. And I've recently done another case involving a journalist where it was --

(CROSSTALK)

CLOONEY: -- yes, exactly, who worked with CNN.

But we're also having private conversations with government because, at the end, you know, it's not enough that we get public statements and public

support.

We need people to also be picking up the phone and calling President Yameen and saying, you know, you can't do this.

And one of the important partners that we're hoping to engage is India, as there's going to be a high-level visit by Prime Minister Modi, who's going

to be coming to see David Cameron soon.

And so there's a lot of work that also goes on behind the scenes, which is -- which can be really instrumental in cases like this and which we're

pursuing on a parallel track.

AMANPOUR: You brought up Mohamed Fahmy, who actually did once work for CNN but was taken in because of work for Al Jazeera.

Your reaction: finally, he and the others were pardoned and released.

CLOONEY: Yes. I was delighted. I've been working on the case for over a year and in that time I've been in almost daily contact with either him or

a member of his family.

I was -- you know, his brother told me that the first phone call he made was to me and we were, just on a personal level, so happy, but also on a

principled level; I think, it was a great relief because it gives us hope that things can change in Egypt and that the media can be free to report on

what's happening there.

I mean, the reading the judgment, it was just so absurd and he could have been stuck in this spiral of appeals within the court system. So it is a

relief and it also brought some hope that maybe things will turn a corner there.

AMANPOUR: Laila, your husband was a real champion for climate change and saving the environment. The Maldives obviously, you know, very precarious

position. In fact, he had that incredibly iconic cabinet meeting in scuba gear, you know, which we all played ad nauseam when it first happened.

What happens to the climate movement in your part of the world right now?

Is it on hold?

Is anybody else carrying the torch?

Will he come out again and do that?

ALI: As soon as he gets a chance, I have no doubt he will do it. But for now, the Maldives should be leading in the climate change front because it

is what we had been doing. But I'm told that even in the international arena, their role is so small now that actually it's a shame for us to be

leading it now.

CLOONEY: I think this is one of the tragedies of the case. It's obviously we're trying to get President Nasheed himself out of prison. But he was a

hero for climate justice. He was a hero for human rights in his country. And he represents the country's best hope for the rule of law and

democracy. So --

[14:25:00]

CLOONEY: -- it is one man behind bars at the moment. But he's also -- I mean, what's happening to him is emblematic of a larger problem in the

country, where I was just in Male and I met with journalists and human rights activists and they said we receive death threats. We -- our offices

are raided.

We had one of our colleagues, another lawyer, representing Nasheed, was stabbed in the head a couple of days before we got there. And we've met

with diplomats and they're saying, you know, this is part of a spiral back.

It was a fledgling democracy and now it's going back towards dictatorship, where you've got the same family back in power. And it's even now the

highest rate of per capital recruitment to ISIS in the world, with over 200 fighters from the Maldives in Syria and Iraq.

AMANPOUR: Amal Clooney, Laila Ali, thank you very much for joining me.

CLOONEY: Thank you, Christiane. Thanks for your interest in the case.

ALI: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So amidst all the struggle for human rights, across the globe, after a break, we imagine a raging success. Imagine our world winning the

war against extreme poverty -- next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world without extreme poverty.

Well, for the first time ever, less than 10 percent of our planet is now trapped in that poverty. It was around 29 percent before a 15-year push by

the United Nations raised more than a billion people out of that despair.

And now the U.N. has launched the sustainable development goals to build on that progress, launching it with superstars like Beyonce, who put their

weight behind this renewed effort to defeat hunger, poverty and disease and to reach gender equality by 2030. It is an ambitious aim but, as we've

just seen, one that can be reached.

That is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from London.

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