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Amanpour
Desmond Tutu's 2009 Statements Discussed by Robert Mugabe Regarding His Reign; Donald Trump's Lifting the Ban on Imported Exotic Animals Was Reported; Former Secretary of Defense Ash Carter Discusses the US Military's Weaknesses
Aired November 17, 2017 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight an atrocity straight out of the past.
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The numbers roll in. These men are sold for 1,200 Libyan pounds (ph), $400 a piece. You are watching
an auction of human beings.
AMANPOUR: Nima Elbagir, with an exclusive look at a modern-day slave auction in Libya. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to our weekend
review of some of our main stories. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.
A dark chapter in human history is playing out in Northern Africa. Libya, a failed state since the fall of Muammar Gaddafi, is where human cargo is
funneled through on its way through the deadly trail of migration from Sub- Saharan Africa over the sea to Italy. The country is full of migrants now, who carry horrific stories of beatings and kidnappings, and, yes, even
enslavement.
ELBAGIR: I'm Nima Elbagir in London. Earlier this week, we broke the news of modern-day slave auctions in Libya and presented the evidence to the
authorities. CNN has now learned that they are opening a formal investigation into the practice, based on the evidence we provided. Senior
officials promised to find and repatriate those who were sold into slavery and to convict those responsible for those -- for these inhumane acts.
CNN's Freedom Project has been exposing all forms of slavery and human trafficking. Our team made it to Libya as part of the Freedom Project, to
witness this inhumane story for ourselves.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
ELBAGIR (voice-over): A man addressing an unseen crowd. "Big strong boys for farm work." He says "400, 700, 700 (ph), 800." The numbers roll in.
These men are sold for 1,200 Libyan pounds (ph), $400 a piece. You are watching an auction of human beings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Another man, claiming to be a buyer. Off camera, someone asks, "What happened to the ones from Niger?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
ELBAGIR (voice-over): "Sold off," he told. CNN was sent this footage by a contact. After months of working, we were able to verify the authenticity
of what you see here. We decided to travel to Libya to try and see for ourselves.
ELBAGIR: We're now in Tripoli and we're starting to get a little bit more of a sense of how this all works. Our contacts are telling us that there
are one to two of these auctions every month and that there is one happening in the next few hours. So we're going to head out of town and
see if we can get some sort of access to it.
ELBAGIR (voice-over): For the safety of our contacts, we have agreed not to divulge the location of this auction, but the town we're driving to
isn't the only one. Night falls, we travel through nondescript suburban neighborhoods, pretending to look for a missing person. Eventually, we
stop outside a house like any other, adjust our secret cameras, and wait.
Finally, it's time to move. We're ushered in to one of two auctions happening on this same night. Crouched at the back of the house (ph), a
floodlight obscuring much of the scene, one-by-one men are brought out as the bidding begins.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Four hundred, five hundred, five fifty, six hundred, six fifty, seven hundred (ph). Very quickly, it's over. We ask if we can
speak to the men.
[14:05:00]
ELBAGIR (voice-over): The auctioneer, seen here, refuses. We ask again if we can speak to them, if we can help them. "No," he says, "the auction's
over with." And we're asked to leave. That was over very quickly. We walked in and as soon as we walked in, the men started covering their faces
but they clearly wanted to finish what they were doing and they kept bringing out what they kept referring to in Arabic as badayie, the
merchandise. All in all they admitted to us that there were 12 Nigerians that were sold in front of us. And I honestly don't know what to say.
That was probably one of the most unbelievable things that I have ever seen.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: You guys only want to take us to (inaudible). Let us stay close to our various countries.
ELBAGIR (voice-over): These men are migrants with dreams of being smuggled to Europe by sea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible).
ELBAGIR (voice-over): They come in the thousands from Niger, Mavi, Nigeria, Ghana. It's hard to believe that these are the lucky ones rescued
from warehouses like the one in which we witnessed the auction. They're sold if those warehouses become overcrowded or if they run out of money to
pay their smugglers.
Of these rescued men, so many here say they were held against their will. It doesn't take us long to find victory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice (inaudible)
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Victory was a slave.
ELBAGIR: We know that some people are being sold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ELBAGIR: Some people are being sold. Is this something you've heard about? Can you tell us about them? Tell us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. I was sold.
ELBAGIR: What happened?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: On the way from here I was sold. If you look at most of the peopleif you check our body you see the mark. They are vicious with
the electric. They really are brutal with sharp (inaudible). Do you understand? (inaudible) lost their lives there. I was there. Most of
the people (inaudible) Our (inaudible) best look to give you my money. They took me out of. So the money was not even that much.
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Other migrants now start to come forward with their stories.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They took people to work by force. Even where we are-
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where we at-
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) I'm doing the work
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I promise you I will take care of (inaudible)
ELBAGIR: [Anisir Asazbi] is the supervisor here with no international support it's his job to look after the captured migrants until they can be
deported. He says everyday brings fresh heartbreak.
ANISIR ASAZIBI, SUPERVISOR: I'm suffering for them. I am suffering for them. What they have seen here daily, believe me, it makes me really feel
frightened for them. They come and every story is a special case. They were abusing them, they stole their money.
ELBAGIR: Have you heard about people being auctioned off, about migrants being sold?
ASAZIBI: Honestly, we hear the rumors but there's nothing as obvious in front of us. We don't have everything.
ELBAGIR: But we now do. CNN has delivered this evidence to the Libyan authorities who have promised to launch an investigation so that scenes
like this are returned to the (inaudible). Nima Elbagir, CNN, Libya.
(END VIDEO)
ELBAGIR: We are so grateful for the response to our report and to all of those who shared it around the world. Its forced officials to take notice.
This is a story, of course, at it's heart about people. So we want to bring you more from 21 year old victory as so many of you were touched by
his story.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
VICTORY, MALE: Going back home now. We start together. Mosul got Europe now. (inaudible) they are doing (inaudible) them have grown up. I go back
start back from square one. It's very painful. Very painful. Even when they give us food here, that wasn't the main problem to me. (inaudible) me
is I'm going to start (inaudible) the main problem. Because I have lost a lot. I have lost a lot. It is very difficult. All I have to say that it
is a year now (inaudible) so in this kind of (inaudible) deporting numbers of people that is also deported with (inaudible). If you look at it you
are deporting us. Before we left, we all have a dream. Isn't it?
UNIDENTIFED MALES: Yes.
VICTORY: We all have a dream, you understand? Hoping that we will get there. We achieve something because a lot of (inaudible) where they were
too (inaudible) to learn. We see what they achieve. We believe that we will get (inaudible). That's why we leave.
(END VIDEO)
ELBAGIR: Joining me now on the line for more on this is Chief of Mission for the International Organization for Migration in Libya. This man,
[Valvace], Mr. Valvace thank you so much for joining us.
VALVACE, CHIEF OF MISSION FOR THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MIGRATION IN LIBYA: Thank you for having me, thank you.
ELBAGIR: I, I know that you have heard this news now that the Libyan authorities are formally starting an investigation into what we uncovered
and of course we should say that this was first reported by your agency, by the International Organization for Migration. You were the first to report
on these slave auctions of migrants. So my question to you is, does the news of this investigation, does it give you help Mr. Valvace?
VALVACE: We definitely will count the news for any investigation and we hope this will uncover not only this case but definitely all the cases of
abuse and violence against migrants.
ELBAGIR: Given that the Libyan authority though, the GNA, the internationally recognized Libyan government, the reality is that it's
remade it's actual territorial hold. It's pretty limited. Does that concern you when you think of the scope, the stranglehold that these
criminal networks have on this country. Until there is actual security in Libya, can there ever be any hope for these migrants?
VALVACE: So talking about Libya here we are talking also about (inaudible) country with borders that covers six neighboring countries in addition to
the Mediterranean Sea. Now the situation in the country, in Libya, is definitely challenging in terms of the political situation, the economy
situation, but most important the security situation in the country with the lack of basic services. Having more than 200,000 displaced Libyans
also increase the scope and the impact of the problem. Now the main challenge in Libya is the fact that the smuggling networks are becoming
stronger, more organized, and better equipped.
In addition, the law enforcement authorities or officials officers does not have the protection they require to carry out their duties. So what's
going to happen to them when they go back home? They will be definitely targeted by the smugglers. So we need, we defiantly make sure that there
is a political and security stability in the country if we want to stop such practices. Otherwise this will be very challenges and such practices
unfortunately will continue.
ELBAGIR: Two incredibly perceptive and excellent points Mr. Valvace there regarding the strength of the networks and the fragility, the vulnerability
of the security services themselves. Thank you so much for joining us. Unfortunately we're going to have to leave it there.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST OF AMANPOUR: Coming up, even in peace time cyber warfare is being waged and a former US Defense Secretary says the US
military is not up to speed. His candid assessment next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The Islamic State is defeated. Raqqa and Mosul are liberated. The Caliphate is all but destroyed but ISIS
is still a threat both in the real world and online. And former Defense Secretary Ash Carter warns that when it comes to cyber war, the US military
may not be up to the fight yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
AMANPOUR: Is Isis defeated? Are we at the end of this battle?
ASH CARTER, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, we're very near the end in Iraq and Syria. The liberation of Raqqa, which remember
was the so called capital of the so called Caliphate, destroys the fact and the idea that there can be an Islamic State based upon this ideology which
was necessary for us to protect our people. At this stage, my concern has always been and I just want to punctuate this right now that the military
campaign was outrunning the political and economic campaign. Nobody, even the biggest loser at their keyboard in the United States can possibly
imagine that this Islamic State is a happening thing anymore and that's very important. But, the political and economic is the critical part and
that's where we always fall down.
AMANPOUR: Apparently, well, I mean I don't know the details, but there was a lot of cyber warfare that was involved against Isis to take them down.
CARTER: Less than I wanted.
AMANPOUR: So tell me about it.
CARTER: Well, Isis was an enemy and they were using the internet and social media as a means of directing their own military operations but
directing and inspiring attacks on the United States. And I thought it was important that we attack as you always do attack an enemy's command and
control, and if that was in cyber that we do that in cyber just as we were doing air strikes and enabling ground operations and so forth.
AMANPOUR: Was that taking down their social media?
CARTER: Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: What was the extent of it?
CARTER: Yes, blacking them out so that they couldn't do it. Now that turned out, we turned out to be, I'm going to be candid, less proficient at
that than I think we deserve to be.
AMANPOUR: Because you said, it was less than you wanted. You wanted more?
CARTER: I wanted more capability than we just had not developed the-
AMANPOUR: So they were more capable than the United States of America in cyber?
CARTER: Well they were doing something different. They were just trying to inspire crazy people and put up posts and so forth. We were trying to
do something much more deliberate and much more difficult. On the other hand, we're a powerful country. We have cyber capability that we've been
building but what this taught me is we have a lot of work still to do. So it wasn't completely ineffectual but it didn't-I wasn't satisfied with it.
And I think that is a work in progress and it's part of the continuing need to modernize our military capabilities because it's a competitive world.
AMANPOUR: Well you say that and obviously Russia is harnessing the cyber attack.
CARTER: They are.
AMANPOUR: So are we seeing, Isis who could do this, I mean Russia has weaponized cyber, social media, online, against the United States.
CARTER: Yes, including using it essentially in peace time in our elections, but also just to stir up trouble in the United States. Some of
it is directed we know, and some of it is clearly inspired by the government of Vladimir Putin and he does it in Europe as well. Now, my
view of that is that that is clearly aggressive behavior that we need to be able to counter. Now on the first instance we need to defend ourselves
better so that we're not as soft
[14:20:00]
a target. But I also think that in today's world an attack is an attack and when I was Secretary of Defense, I wanted to turn and I did, our budget
and orient it towards these more advanced capabilities-cyber, space, new kinds of aircraft, so that we would remain superior militarily to our
principal potential antagonist which are the great powers, China and Russia. Not that we want a war with either of them but one of the ways
that you makes sure that war doesn't occur is by being strong. And to be strong in a competitive world technologically you need to be running the
whole time.
(END VIDEO)
AMANPOUR: A different kind of war now, that against the natural environment and another blow against conservation by the Trump
Administration this week. After a three year ban, so called trophies from elephants which can be legally hunted in Zimbabwe and Zambia such as their
severed tusks and heads can now be brought back to the United States even though elephants are a critically endangered species. Not coincidentally
Trump's sons Eric and Donald, Jr., are big game hunters. When we come back, more news from Zimbabwe a country in political crisis. We imagine
how the perpetual reign of the man who led Zimbabwe to freedom can come to an ignominious end.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And finally, Robert Mugabe turned out to be president for life give or take a few years. This week the military finally took over and
detained him and he is apparently negogiating his future with them. It can be hard to imagine how the freedom fighter of the 1970's and '80's became a
ruthless authoritarian. But I had a chance to sit across from him in 2009 and I asked how he justified the collapse of Zimbabwe under his own iron
grip.
(BEGIN VIDEO)
ROBERT MUGABE, PRESIDENT OF ZIMBABWE: I will never, never, never, never surrender. Zimbabwe is mine. I am a Zimbabwian. Zimbabwe for
Zimbabwains. Zimbabwe never for the British. Britain for the British.
AMANPOUR: Is that just political rally rhetoric or did you mean that? What did you mean?
MUGABE: That Zimbabwe belongs to Zimbabwains.
AMANPOUR: Right. Since you took over, life expectancy has dropped. Manufacturing has fallen.
MUGABE: I'm just stating you the reasons.
AMANPOUR: One in 14 people are malnourished.
MUGABE: It's because of sanctions mainly.
AMANPOUR: But everybody says it's not because of sanctions it's because of mismanagement.
MUGABE: Not every, everybody says so.
AMANPOUR: Most people do. Most independent observers say that.
MUGABE: It's in Zimbabwe. It's not true.
[14:25:00]
AMANPOUR: I would like to play one sound bite by a neighbor of yours, a Nobel Peace Prize Winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu who said the following:
(BEGIN VIDEO)
DESMOND TUTU, SOUTH AFRICAN ANGLICAN CLERGYMAN: He's destroyed a wonderful country, a country that used to be a bread basket. It has now become a
basket case itself. But I think now that I am in that, the world must say look, you have been responsible with your cohorts. You have been
responsible for gross violations and you are going to face indictment in the hate unless you step down.
(END VIDEO)
AMANPOUR: How do you respond to that, first that you have taken the bread basket of Africa into a basket case?
MUGABE: No, It is not a basket case at all.
AMANPOUR: Why is it so difficult to leave power in a reasonable way when you are up instead of waiting until it gets to this stage?
MUGABE: Enough when you don't want to leave power when imperials dictate that you leave.
AMANPOUR: Are you afraid as some have suggested, that one day you might be indicted by the international criminal court?
MUGABE: I don't care about that, the international what or what they decide is entirely their own affair. I'm concerned about Zimbabwe and I'm
concerned about the lives of the people of Zimbabwe and don't forget it was my party which brought democracy into the country and not the Britains. We
had to fight the British for democracy for one man, one person, one vote.
(END VIDEO)
AMANPOUR: And that's it for our program this week. Remember you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at Amanpour.com and follow me
on Facebook and twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.
END
