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Amanpour
Reverend William Barber, the Martin Luther King of our Times; Stefan Kornelius' Authorized Biography on Angela Merkel, "Angela Merkel: The Chancellor and Her World."; Mandy Patinkin, A Real-Life Advocate for Refugees. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 31, 2018 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour."
During the Christmas holidays, we're dipping into the archive and looking back at some of these years' highlights. So, here's what's coming up.
The Reverend, William Barber, one of America's great moral leaders, just ahead of midterm elections tells me that he senses an awakening in the
country, a fresh commitment to fighting poverty, bigotry and environmental devastation.
Plus, the end of an era. German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, is considering the firewall against a rising tide of Western nationalism. Why is she
stepping away from the fray?
Then, two brilliant artists and activists. Our Alicia Menendez talk to the veteran actor and musician, Mandy Patinkin.
And Singer/Songwriter, Rosanne Cash. makes beautiful music just for us.
Welcome back the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.
Jesus said, "How you care for and welcome the stranger, the immigrant, the undocumented is how nations will be judged." At least that's what the
Reverend, William Barber, tells us as President Trump focuses on the base by demonizing immigrants, calling them invaders in his fight for Republican
votes on Tuesday.
While poverty still plagues this richest of countries, with almost a third of all Americans living at best from paycheck to paycheck, almost 100
million Americans lack adequate health insurance and U.S. incarcerated rates are the highest in the world.
My guest, Reverend William Barber has been called the Martin Luther King of our times, a protestant minister from North Carolina. He century won this
year's MacArthur Genius Grant for leading the fight against poverty and for civil rights. You may remember his speech at the 2016 Democratic national
convention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARBER, CO-CHAIR, POOR PEOPLE'S CAMPAIGN: When some want to harden and stop the heart of our democracy, we are being called like our fore
mothers and fathers to be the moral defibrillators of our times. We must shock this nation with the power of love.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, these two years later, when I spoke here with William Barber, I asked him about finding the compassionate side, the moral
imperative amidst all the Trump era tumult.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Reverend Barber, welcome to the program.
BARBER: Thank you so much, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Listen, I am fascinated by one of the things you've written recently. I have you have named all the challenges that many communities
around the states face since President Trump's election. But you said this is actually a moment and we see the result of activism and pushing back and
you feel that this is an opportunity. Is that right?
BARBER: I do. I think that in some ways with Trump we see kind of a reliving of the -- I call it kind of the horror of 1968 when the southern
strategy began. Kevin Phillips and Richard Nixon and they decided that they were going to win election by finding out who hates who, who was
afraid of who and engage in what they call positive polarization.
So, Trump really has been speaking to an audience that's been cultivated for 50 years. But in some sense, what he has actually done is awaken the
people. In the work that I'm doing, we look at systemic racism and particularly how does this see through voter suppression. Poverty,
systemic poverty, ecological devastation, health care, the war economy and the false narrative of religious nationalism.
AMANPOUR: So, you are obviously from the religious, from the faith-based community and I'm really fascinated. You call yourself a theological
conservative liberal evangelical Biblicist.
BARBER: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: How do you thread all those needles? How can you be conservative and liberal?
BARBER: First of all, to be a conservative is to hold onto the essence. Well, the essence of the bible, if you cut out all the scriptures in the
bible, they talk about how you should treat the poor and the immigrant, the bible would fall apart.
So, if you are anti the poor and anti-immigrants, you are not being conservative, you are not holding onto the essence of. In the
constitution, it says that we are first to establish justice and care for the -- and provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare.
What we need to do is say to conserve means to hold on to, liberal means to give our, Biblicist means to focus on the bible. And I'm -- and
evangelical means to care first for the poor and to spread those things.
AMANPOUR: This past June, when there was that immense real catastrophe of the so-called zero tolerance policy, children being ripped away from their
parents and there a lot who are still separated. The attorney general used a bible verse to defend that policy and he said that, you know, god
supports the government in separating immigrant parents from their parents. That was the suggestion from this verse. I would cite to you the Apostle
Paul and he's clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government and because God has ordained the government for his purposes.
How do you as an evangelical, because he is an evangelical or maybe he's not? He's --
BARBER: Well, he says he is an evangelical but he's not using biblical evangelical terms, he's using a group of -- the so-called White evangelical
terms that really is rooted more in opinions than the scripture.
Paul challenged the government. Jesus challenged the government, he challenged the heretics of his day. Paul was thrown in jail for
challenging the government. Paul was thrown in jail for saying there's no Jew or gentile, there's no bond or free but we're all one.
For Jeff Sessions to try to use that to justify an unjust policy is just like slave masters using scriptures to justify slavery or people using
scriptures to try to justify being anti-women. It is just wrong and it doesn't line up with Jesus.
For Christians, evangelicals, Jesus is lord and Jesus said how you care for and welcome the stranger, the immigrant, the undocumented is how nations
will be judged.
AMANPOUR: Well, and you can see that the stranger, the immigrant is a focal point of President Trump and the Republicans' pre-midterm campaign
policy. There's a very ugly commercial out right now. I obviously know how you react to that. But how do you think the country recovers from
that? Of course, it goes all the way back to echoes of the Willie Horton ad.
BARBER: Or further.
AMANPOUR: Of further.
BARBER: Because remember, this anti-immigrant piece runs through the American project. We have always struggled in America with what we say on
paper and who we are in reality. You go back to the 1920s and 1930s and how people were Irish and Polish were seen as bad, is pushed away. Now, we
have a focus. And he is not just saying immigrants, he's saying Mexicans. We have to remember that. They were not just children that were snatched
to the border, they were Brown children.
AMANPOUR: And now, with the caravan.
BARBER: Right. These are people, many of whom are fleeing Honduras and El Salvador because of our policies, policies, our military policies in those
areas, our deportation policies where we took gangsters out of prisons in L.A., sent them back and they created havoc down there.
I'm also more concerned though about the enablers, the silence of the senators, the silence of the representatives on his party and the crowds
that all are coming from immigrants. Trump is not an original American man. He's not a name of native Americans. They are all immigrants. And
now, they want to put in place policies that if their own great grandmothers were trying to get in the country they wouldn't be allowed.
AMANPOUR: Today, you're looking at Georgia and other such places where there are huge accusations and there have been reports of the tens of
thousands, if not more than a million people struck from the rolls and pretty much all from your community, right, African-American?
BARBER: African-American community, but also poor people, also, you know, White women. One of the most underreported stories, and I think this is
where we missed it in this country, from a deep moral perspective, is since 2010, 26 states have engaged in massive voter suppression. That represents
over 5 4 percent of all African-American voters. But if look at those states, you're talking about 52 senators, the majority of the House of
Representatives.
AMANPOUR: So, what do you think the fight back should be in a place like Georgia and elsewhere?
BARBER: Extremists who are calling themselves Republicans know they can't win if everyone votes. We have less voting rights today in America than we
have at August 6,1965 with the Voting Rights Act having been gutted. So, there are several things we need to do.
First of all, we need to vote massively in this election. I mean, just massively. And take it personal that people would try to undermine,
suppress the right to vote which was won through the blood of the martyrs.
Thirdly, we have to -- when a new Congress comes in, we have to restore the Voting Rights Act but we got to go further, automatic registration at 18.
We need to have that election day as a holiday, early voting and same day registration in more states than just North Carolina and others, it should
be across the country.
AMANPOUR: What happens when opponents of the kind of things you are saying, say, Hold on a second, Reverend. You are meant to be a man of God,
a spiritual man, what are you doing talking about forensic politics like you are doing right now?"
BARBER: Well, my lord talked about forensic politics. His first sermon, Jesus's first sermon, they almost got him lynched actually. In Luke
Chapter 4, in the midst of Caesar and narcissism and hatred and a society that was stratified, poor and wealthy. Jesus' first sermon was, "I have
come to preach good news to the poor," and in Greek, the word there of poor there is ftochos, it means those who made poor by economic exploitation
systems. He then went on to say the broken hearted, the blind, the prisoner and all of those who have been made to feel unacceptable.
So, you cannot declare the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot preach the prophets of the old testament and not be engaged in the social ring.
However, you don't do it from a partisan perspective. I'm not Democrat or Republican. I'm independent. We're raising the moral critique of this
nation.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me about poverty. I think there's a figure that somewhere around 140 million Americans live either at or below the poverty
line. Am I right?
BARBER: We have a study done by the IPS, the Institute for Policy Study, called "The Souls of Poor Folk" auditing American 50 years after the
original poor people's campaign was basically assassinated. Here are the numbers, 140 million poor people and low wealth people in this country, 73
percent of them are women and children. The most are White women, children and disabled.
AMANPOUR: See, nobody knows that. They think they most maybe minorities.
BARBER: And they are right in terms of the percentage, in terms of the numbers within the race. But in actual numbers, raw numbers, there are
many poor White and most of them are White women and children. 37 million people without health care even with the Affordable Care Act. 4 million
people families that get up every morning can buy unleaded gas can't but not unleaded water.
That's -- these are the numbers. And the sad thing about it is right now, even in this election, what are we talking about? A caravan is not going
to get here. Tweets, racism, it's all distraction and we are not talking about the real issues.
But it's not just Trump, I will say this on your show, because in the presidential debates in 2016, we had 26 in the primary and in the general
election, not one hour was spent on voting rights. Not one hour, end of the debate. In a time where we have massive voting suppression that we
haven't seen since Jim Crow, not one hour was spent talking about those 140 million people that are poor and the 62 million people who work every day
without a living wage, and the fact that there's not one county in this country where you can make a minimum wage and basically afford a modest
two-bedroom apartment. Think about that.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you about those people in middle America, let's say, who were instrumental in putting President Trump in the oval office.
There are many who believe that his economic policies are helping them, that they see the Trump winfall, so to speak. What do you say to that?
BARBER: Well, the southern strategy is -- has been powerful. I mean, the lie to people. So, one of the things we are going in there to pull off the
lie, to pull off the distortion and show people the actual number and we're finding success with the movement when that is happening.
Secondly, people are starting to see now that while you may have Wall Street going up, wages are going down. People voted and (INAUDIBLE) I
didn't know about the ACA. Some people thought that Obamacare and the ACA were two different things because of the way it was talked about.
AMANPOUR: Well, one of the issues you have been saying is health care, the Affordable Care the ACA, and I just want to put it to you that obviously
for you it's personal. I mean, I haven't said it yet but you're sitting there somewhat lopsided. You suffer from a really severe arthritic
condition. And this is personal to you.
BARBER: Very personal. But even deeper than that, I pastor. There's a study from Harvard that says thousands of people die for every 1 million
people that do not have health care. So, 37 million people do not have health care and say 3,000 to 5,000 people die. It's a lot of people who
died not because God called them home or just their time but because of government policies.
We are the only country of the 25 wealthiest countries that doesn't offer some form of universal health care. That is sinful. That is violation of
fundamental human rights, that is not the establishment of justice.
And the number of children -- my daughter was born with hydrocephalies. She lives today. I prayed at one time that I would live long enough to see
her be able to get coverage with the pre-existing condition. And when the Affordable Care Act passed, we cried because before then, my daughter could
not be covered and there are thousands of people are like that.
I could tell you about Kelly Green in Alabama whose daughter died because she had a terminal cancer that could have been treated, but Alabama refused
to accept Medicaid expansion. And again, the strangeness of it is, most of the people in Alabama that would have been benefited are White.
But as a pastor, I have to bury people. I have to stand over their caskets and there's a group of us that have said that if anybody in our
congregation has died because of lack of health care, we're going to call the media and we're going to ask the families (INAUDIBLE) and say, "Look,
this what happens when politicians, as Isaiah said, make unjust laws.
And how is it then, this is the thing, a deep moral question. Because I think the question for us now is not will the Democratic party survive or
the Republican, but will America survive? Almost all of these politicians when they get sworn into office, they first thing they want to do is put
their hand on the bible and swear to uphold the constitution. Many of them once they do that they don't -- they act like they don't know what's in the
constitution or the bible.
How is it that you come to Congress as a senator or representative and you get free health care? Free health care from the people, paid for by the
people, the best health care only because you got elected. But then every morning, you elect to get up and try to vote to repeal a program to give
some Americans health care. How can you -- how do you do that morally? That is the question. What is going on in your mind that you would not
want your constituents to have the very thing that you have only because your constituents have voted to send you to Washington, D.C. or to send you
to the State House or to make you governor? That's what I mean by some of these issues are not about left versus right and Democrat versus Republican
but about right versus wrong.
AMANPOUR: And we will see the results.
BARBER: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Right versus wrong. Now, on the world stage, it seemed that ever since the turn of the century, literally one leader above all, one
woman, stood as the protector of the liberal Democratic world order that emerged from the ashes of World War II. It's has kept the peace in Europe
ever since as well as economic prosperity and order. That defender is the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, a proud moderate, a centrist in this era
of extremes.
Once she seemed almost invisible. Now, she's on her way out, saying that she will not run for re-election in 2021. So, how will her departure
change Germany, Europe and perhaps the world? Journalist Stefan Kornelius is covering Angela Merkel since the late 1980s. He's written her
authorized biography "Angela Merkel: The Chancellor and Her World." And he joins me now.
Stefan Kornelius, welcome to our program. You hear me OK over --
STEFAN KORNELIUS, AUTHOR, "ANGELA MERKEL: THE CHANCELLOR AND HER WORLD": Thanks, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: You hear me OK all the way over there? Let me start by --
KORNELIUS: I could hear you good.
AMANPOUR: -- asking you, are we putting too much on Angela Merkel's shoulders? Are we correct in thinking that for all these years she has
held the line, held the center in a world that is shifting so sort of precipitously?
KORNELIUS: Well, the further you get away from Germany the more you put on her shoulders and the more you limit European-German politics on that
single woman. On the other side, yes, you are more than right, she is an extraordinary person and she's so outstandingly different now in the time
where nationalism and different leader types are evoked.
So, basically, yes, this woman is holding a lot of things together. And since she announced that she would withdraw, even though it is only in
three years' time, probably earlier, but we have to assume that she could probably finish her term.
Since she did that, yes, you really can feel how that power flows away from her, how she -- how this unliberal forces are almost tubulating and
basically getting rid of her.
AMANPOUR: So, you know, 2021 would be a next election. Now, she's done four and she's been elected. So, it's very unlikely that she would have
ever run again anyway. But the next meaningful one is in December when she is also going to step down as chairman of her party, the CDU. So, you sort
of implied that the power is kind of leaking away from her. Will she be a lame duck chancellor even if she does continue to the end of her term?
KORNELIUS: Well, yes and no. The chairman party system, the chairman political system provides the party leader with quite some powers. And
having both the party leadership and the chancellorship means ultimate power and giving away both while internally (ph) and stepping away from the
party leadership that early will definitely weaken her.
But on the other side, you cannot get rid of a chancellor basically by writing him off or her off. She is voted in her office. It is pretty
difficult to get her out of office. The German constitution provides a lot of safeties for a stable government. We know from our historical
experience that we shouldn't really push aside governments or like other countries do. I mean, like Italy. Italy has a huge number of governments
changing over time.
So, this gives her some stability. And we probably will look at this news now in two, three months in a bit different -- from a different angle and
see that she's even more liberated and that she could spend the accumulated capital, political capital, she amassed over the past years more freely
over the past years or probably months she will remain in office.
AMANPOUR: Now, that is --
KORNELIUS: Yes, she will be a lame duck to some extent but the German chancellor is --
AMANPOUR: No, no. I don't mean to interrupt you. But that is a really intriguing concept, that she might be liberated to pursue even more of her
policies. So, what might they be? Because clearly, you remember way back in 2000, you quoted it, she quoted it, she talked about her vision as being
the market plus humanity. So, she's obviously a conservative economist, if I could put it that way, but she has tried to have a compassionate,
Christian, humane government and policy.
And of course, we saw that when she allowed these immigrants fleeing war and devastation in their own country in 2015 to come in. That seems to
have backfired on her. How does she go forward with that very issue now?
KORNELIUS: Well, on immigration issue, you are right. It totally backfired and she not only was liberal or welcoming to those migrants
because she was liberal mind or had an open heart, but because she's a very pragmatic and clear-thinking woman. Not the German chancellor, not a
single politician in Europe would have been able to stop 15,000 migrants a day crossing the German border.
So, I guess she didn't close the borders or didn't send them back for several reasons. She would have destabilized vast parts of east and
southeast Europe, she would have sent an extremely devastating message about Germany's culture to the outside world. And she couldn't have lived
up to the promises in the end anyway because those people would have turned around and come through the back door. You cannot seal off Germany. This
is not possible.
So, what she did is she put in policies in place with Turkey, with other neighboring countries across the Mediterranean and Northern Africa to
basically channel this flow of migrants and actually trickle it down. It's definitely it's too many people coming to Europe. Now, that took time.
And that was the basic mistake, she communicated badly and she now pays a huge price for that.
She lost power for that in Germany. This is the single issue which has turned against her and it will be the issue which she will be compelled to
deal with for the remaining time in her office. But --
AMANPOUR: Stefan --
KORNELIUS: -- things she could do or have to do with European unity, with the rise of populism in Europe.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's the next question. You know, had written and others that Europe must be shivering right now, thinking that she is about
to step off her world platform. And you talk about populism, even in your own country, the remarkable rise of the very extreme right AFD, now the
third biggest party, who could have thought that, and Merkle's party losing quite dramatically in the last two rounds of local elections. Where do you
see the political power center moving in Germany post-Merkle?
KORNELIUS: Fascinating question is the key question. I mean, Merkel moved the political landscape far to the left. Her CDU conservative party is now
basically the centrist party in Germany. Almost eliminating the (INAUDIBLE) Democrat. This is a new party pattern and we do see the rise
of populist and nationalist parties not only in Germany but all over Europe. Honestly, Germany was the last country which was infected by this
kind of populism and nationalism.
So, we do see now a new party pattern. And those successors who are now in line to follow her and are -- have the best chances to succeed her will
push the party back again to the right a little bit. And therefore, make it probably harder for the populist and nationalist parties or two of
party, the AFD, to succeed.
Nevertheless, it is a battle. It is a huge battle and not a German battle, it's a European battle. Watch the European elections next spring and you
might see that populist party in the sum will be in the majority in the European parliament.
AMANPOUR: So, now, let's take it to the world stage. Of course, we have this phenomenal picture that was snapped in a moment. It probably wasn't
what we think it is but it is this picture of Angela Merkel leaning into a seated arm's crossed very defensive looking Donald Trump.
And of course, she -- when he first came in, she congratulated him but said that relations depend on commitment to mutual values and institutions. And
you've seen the fraying of those mutual values and institutions. She's upset about pulling out of the Climate Treaty. She is upset about the U.S.
pulling out of the Iran nuclear deal and et cetera, et cetera.
How does this -- how does Europe continue to have a, you know, sovereign standoff with President Trump, if you like?
KORNELIUS: Well, it's a tectonic change for Europe. Trump's behavior, the new American policy is much more challenging to Europe as one would -- as
one would think from, let's say, looking from the American heartland, it has a much bigger effect on Europe and Germany than so many other things.
Trade will now hugely debate it.
Well, luckily, Merkel was the first one who conditionalized relations with Donald Trump. She, as you said, stood up to him at the very first moment
of his presidency, the morning after he was elected and said, "I'm willing to work with you but there are some ground rules we have to follow."
Now, definitely Donald Trump hasn't followed those ground rules and Angela Merkel came back from the first summit in Italy and said, "We'll have to
find a way where we can sort of find our own thing here in Europe. We have to rely on ourselves a little bit more." And this is what Europe is trying
to do now, but it's a tough thing.
AMANPOUR: Right.
KORNELIUS: Right now, Europe isn't split over the American policies. It could very well be if Donald Trump choose to enhance more his ties to
populist movements.
AMANPOUR: And of course, we will see how that goes after the midterms. Stefan Kornelius, thank you so much for joining us.
So, now, we turn and kick off a starry second half of our show. And I'll speak to the amazing Rosanne Cash just out with a new critically acclaimed
album. She gives us an intimate performance along with some intimate stories of her life.
But first, we turn to a man who's been the toast of Broadway as well as the big and the small screens. The singer and the actor, Mandy Patinkin, has
played many roles from Che Guevara in "Evita" to a CIA operative in "Homeland." But for him, his latest role is his most important, being a
real-life advocate for refugees, working with the International Rescue Committee. Patinkin has crisscrossed the globe meeting some of the world's
most vulnerable critical people and it's had a profound impact upon him and his work as he is told our Alicia Menendez.
ALICIA MENENDEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, I think most people know your work on stage and on screen but the work I get the sense you're most proud of is
your work raising awareness about the state of refugees across the world through the IRC. I wonder how did you get started with that work?
MANDY PATINKIN, ACTOR AND SINGER: Well, it was a gift in this point of my life that I wasn't expecting to receive. I was in Berlin shooting the
fifth season of "Homeland." The first episode of that season to place in a Syrian refugee camp at the exact same time that 125,000 refugees were
trying to get across the Balkan route to sanctuary.
And at that moment, when I saw those photos and people, I saw my own ancestors, my Grandpa Max (ph) and Grandma Celia (ph) my wife's Grandma
Masha (ph) and I felt they were my family. They were little boys and families just like my two sons that are no longer little boys and I wanted
to be them and I wanted to hold their hand and give them water and give them comfort and let them know people cared.
And I go every year after I finish shooting something to a hot spot somewhere in the world where there's a crisis, a refugee crisis. On
occasion I bring members of my family and we meet people and we record their stories and take photos because of the Instagram world and write --
and spend great deal of time describing where we were and what we saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As South Sudanese who has experienced serious effects of war, we discourage conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PATINKIN: In march of 2016, the wall shut down and European union stopped accepting people, so everything went into limbo. And in terms of temporary
crisis where they were moving 5,000 to 8,000 people, you know, at a time across Lesvos, it's locked. And what became a temporary situation a
permanent situation with health care and education and everything. And now, you have -- on Lesvos, you have the Moira settlement camp, which is
just overflowing. I think 20,000 people on the Greek islands and they have capacity for 7,000. So, people are trying to commit suicide.
MENENDEZ: It sounds like numbers until you see it.
PATINKIN: Yes. And it isn't numbers when you see it, it's people's lives, beautiful people. When we -- when I first met, I met the Alassy family.
They were the only one left in Kara Tepe in Lesvos. Everyone else had moved out. The IRC had built a city literally with gender-based violence,
tents, you know, to take care of women who've experienced gender-based violence of women's issues, of children's family, tents, showers, medical
tents, et cetera, to move 5, 8000 people a day that were coming across in these dinging's that had room for 24 and 60 people were in them.
[13:30:00] At one point, I got my wish and dinging came up to the island. Again, somebody handed me a little girl in a pink jacket and that's all I
wanted was to help a child.
And then I looked at her and I thought she had died. She wasn't breathing. I later found out that she had epilepsy, had an attack on the boat. We got
her with the IRC to get medical attention and reunited with her family and all is well for that family.
But another family I met, they were left with their two boys, the Alassy family in a tent all alone. And I was fortunate enough I was able to give
them the means to get to the ferry, to get to -- and to get to Germany. And the second year, I took my wife to Germany to reunite us all with that
family which was unbelievably moving.
MENENDEZ: When you hear about refugees and the stories we tell about refugees, it's very othering. And when you actually are with refugees, in
that moment you realize, "Oh, wow. This could be me. This could be anybody."
PATINKIN: Absolutely. One day, my grandfather used to say in Yiddish, "Dos redele dreyt zikh" which means the wheel is always turning. If you're
on top, you better be nice because one day that wheel will turn and you'll be at the bottom.
If you don't open that door and be a welcoming human being to your fellow human being, don't expect someone to welcome you. We've become a nation of
walls, not welcome. And it's a humanitarian crisis. It's a crime against humanity.
MENENDEZ: I wanted to ask you about that because I think very often we talk about the refugee crisis. We talk about it as something that is
happening overseas and abroad. When it is happening at our southern border, how does that comport with the work you do with IRC?
PATINKIN: Well, they are there and they are working. It's a crisis of monumental concern. Some of these families will never be reunited. We've
lost them.
There are some that are already lost just like the thousands that have been lost in the Aegean Sea. You know we've lost them but we haven't lost today
and tomorrow.
Where is our moral ethical nature, our humanity? It was one of the defining factors of this country, of why we're here. Our country used to
take in approximately 90,000 refugees a year. The previous administration had a cap when they left at 110,000.
The new administration came and dropped at the 45,000. But Congress is voting to create a new cap of only 30,000 refugees to the United States
America, less than one percent of the world communities welcoming of these people.
We are less than one percent the most powerful country in the world and third world countries are taking the brunt of this whole thing.
Economically, a humanitarian crisis wise and that's not proper. And it's not who we are.
Who are you morally and ethically? Take a walk. Be quiet. Be by yourself. Don't listen to television, newscasts, and podcasts. And just
ask yourself in private, what is my moral ethical nature and are my representatives mirroring my moral ethical nature?
And if they're not, find representatives who are going into the political field that do represent that. And if you don't know them, find people who
do. And I tell people, I'd much rather you not listen to my music, you not go to my concerts, you not watch my television shows or films, just vote.
That's all I ask is that we vote in this free democracy. Vote. Vote not for yourself. Vote for those who don't have a vote, those who don't have a
home to belong in. Vote for what you hope never happens to your children or grandchildren.
MENENDEZ: I was brought to mind a quote from David Jones that says, "It is both a blessing and a curse to feel everything so very deeply." And so the
blessing is apparent. There is the passion of the blessing. What's the curse?
PATINKIN: The curse is it's good for the work because the work often is a heightened I'm an actor. And so it's a heightened condition of the human
condition that we display often. Even if it's funny or lighthearted, it's heightened. And it's not great in life to have that heightened condition.
In life, it's good to breathe, to be calm. It's just the name of the game whether you're the greatest artist or politician or writer or scientist or
school teacher or garbage man, you know, you have two sides of yourselves. Other cultures call it a yin and a yang. You don't -- you need them both.
You need both --
MENENDEZ: Well, because amidst all of the intensity around your work with refugees and the intensity that you have to bring to that portrayal of Saul
on Homeland, your music, you have this [13:35:00] recording out and you're going to be doing live performances.
Listening to that music, I was like this is an incredible counterweight to all of this intensity. It is delicate and I wonder sitting here with you
if you almost need that.
PATINKIN: I have to have it. It's my broccoli. It's my oxygen. I had -- I walked away from it for a few years while I was shooting Homeland, not
because of the schedule. Because I didn't -- well, I was shooting Homeland before I did concerts but my piano player retired. I've been with him 30
years and he wanted to move on.
So it's like Fred and Ginger, you know. I thought I've lost my dance partner and I didn't know if I could go on. And then finally, Bob Hurwitz
who's the president of Nonesuch Records hooked me up with an extraordinary young musician named Thomas Bartlett.
And he sent me on Christmas Eve when I was supposed to go do work with the -- in Bangladesh with the Rohingya in Cox's Bazar but IRC wasn't there yet
and we couldn't go for political reasons at that time. So I had two weeks in the middle of Homeland to stay home.
And I called Thomas Bartlett. I said, listen, I got two weeks. You got any time? He said, "Yeah". I said I just don't want to do anything that
was anything like I did for the past 30 years. I had learner's block for a few years. He said, "No worries. I'll send you something." He sends me
350 songs so I chose 28 of them.
I then went into the studio on the 26th of December of '17 and we started recording. We hit the record button on everything. And then Thomas and I
finished, I had to go back to Homeland. And he sent me like, you know, 10 or 12 of these songs and he said, "I think you should listen to this. I
think we've got something here."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATINKIN: Sing a song of long ago when trees could grow and days flowed quietly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PATINKIN: So I worked with Thomas and he gave me a new life. It's, you know, it's how I survived.
MENENDEZ: Let's talk about Homeland. I am a dedicated viewer but for those who don't know, how would you describe the show?
PATINKIN: Well, it's become different things in different seasons. It began as a fictional wonder that took a Marine and flipped their heads
around and made him an enemy. And we didn't understand that and it also made the enemy a human being.
And that was a wonderful thing to see. And we couldn't tell what was going on. It was supposed to only last one season, that storyline. But the
chemistry between Damian and Claire was so great that they kept it going.
And so finally, it came to an end. And then our writers would reinvent and then it became -- it morphed into what I would often refer to as kind of a
polaroid of our time. And that frustrated me because I didn't feel we were a reality show or a new show. I feel that we're an art form where we need
to have a poetic answer to the world we're living in and existing in around us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAUL BERENSON: Just don't communicate with him under any circumstances.
CARRIE MATHISON: Why the hell not?
BERENSON: Because I'm on to another situation. I don't want you alerting anybody.
MATHISON: What situation?
BERENSON: Can't say. A Russian intelligence operation involving active measures against the President of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: The actor who I loved as Saul on Homeland was also the actor who I loved as Inigo Montoya in Princess Bride, was also Che on the soundtrack
of Evita that I had grown up listening to. Most actors do not get that opportunity.
And I wondered at the time, when you took those roles, did you know how big they were going to be, the impact that they were going to have on culture?
PATINKIN: Never. I just went to work. And I did what my teacher Gerald Friedman taught me to do, was he taught me how to define an action. My
action right now is to listen to you, to hear you.
I know there's a scene that we have been talking a lot. But when you ask me, when I'm with you, and I understand that people out there are listening
and my action to them is to try to connect.
That's my favorite word that James Lapine repeated in Sunday in the Park with George over and over and over again, "Connect, George, connect." If
there are any words I want on my tombstone, it's "He tried to connect."
And what I want all of us to do globally is try to connect. If we fail, get up again. And if you go to the grave trying to connect, your children
will continue it for you but don't give up.
And then when something becomes successful, it's just you don't need to understand it, you don't need to analyze it. If somebody could analyze it
and put it through some algorithm, [13:35:00] then everybody would have everything they ever did being successful on a big hit.
It's not how it works. It's taking chances. And if you're not going to get up in the morning and take a chance and risk something about your comfort
zone, don't get up, stay in bed.
MENENDEZ: Mandy, thank you so much.
PATINKIN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Such a passionate Mandy Patinkin. Probably because one of the untold stories is the unfair fight that it never gets told that the
refugees actually don't destabilize the countries they come to. They are integrated especially in Germany. They don't bring more crime, even though
they're demonizes doing so. It really is a moment where we have to put the facts out.
Now, just as Mandy Patinkin feels that drive to connect as he just said, so too does my next guest, singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash. Cash is a smart,
insightful, and always original creative artist who produced some 15 albums and multiple bestselling books, earning her a shelf-full of awards and
accolades in the process.
Cash is the daughter of the musical legend Johnny Cash and she has a new album out. It is called "She Remembers Everything". And it's a sometimes
painfully honest exploration of the traumas and the triumphs that brought her to where she is today.
When I spoke with Rosanne Cash at the Feinstein's 54 Below right here in New York, she was accompanied by her husband and musical collaborator of
the past 25 years, John Leventhal. She began our conversation by playing the title song of her new album.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSANNE CASH, SINGER-SONGWRITER: I didn't know her then my enemy, my treasured friend outside this waking dream. She remembers everything. I
don't know her now my bitter pill, my broken vow. This girl, this bird who sings. She remembers everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Rosanne Cash, welcome to the program.
CASH: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So we've just heard you and your husband play She Remembers Everything. It's got a great write-up, your new album. What do you
remember? Do you remember everything?
CASH: Probably. I mean that's -- I was thinking about that when I was writing the lyrics, that a woman's memory is trustworthy and that it could
be like a library where you could pull things out. I think it would be a burden to consciously remember everything, every person you met, what you
were doing on your 12th birthday, you know. But it come from think to me to think that it's somewhere.
AMANPOUR: You have said collaborating with your husband is, you know, the very best of romance. How so?
CASH: Because being creative together is very romantic, capital R. And that doesn't mean it's not without its challenges. And we certainly get
into each other's business sometimes too much and take things personally. You know, what do you mean you don't like that note I sing? But to create
something together, that to me that's the ultimate romance.
AMANPOUR: Take me back to your childhood.
CASH: No.
AMANPOUR: You don't want to go? You don't want to go that bad?
CASH: Do you want to go back to your childhood?
AMANPOUR: Being the daughter of Johnny Cash, is that a burden or is it a privilege? Is it a pain in the neck to be constantly asked about it? You
know, you had the experience of your own parents' marriage falling apart.
CASH: Yes. Well, and I'm certainly not the only child who's a child of divorce. I mean it was complicated because my dad was a drug addict and he
was on the road a lot. My mother was, you know, out of her mind with fear and rage and it was complicated.
But fast forward, I am literally the only middle-aged woman I know who still gets constantly asked about her parents. What would your parents
think? What would your dad think? It's like, wow, it does -- it's -- I get it because he's such a huge figure and he casts a long shadow but
sometimes it is a burden.
AMANPOUR: So how do you deal with it? Just to be quiet and --
CASH: Act of compassion. I remember I try to remind myself that when people just want to look through me to see him, that they are looking for
something, something to validate them, something to look up to, to some kind of light to shine on them and he represents a lot -- to a lot of
people. I understand it. Sometimes it's too much.
AMANPOUR: So the quote, "I could not have written these songs on this new album, [13:45:00] 10 years ago, not even close, time is shorter and I have
more to say." Tell me about what time has done for you.
CASH: Well, I'm sure you know as a woman who has carved her place out in the world and in a boy's club because I did the same. What time has done
for me is relieve me of the need to people please. And it's also given me more confidence.
And I've actually had a reverse experience to a lot of people I know in that they have gotten burnout at this point in my life. I feel liberated.
I feel more excited about this record than I do about my first one, than I did about my first one.
And that's an odd thing that I didn't expect out of aging. And at this point, I also feel like I don't want to pretend to be younger. I earned
it. I'm happy here.
AMANPOUR: And every line and every stress and every wrinkle --
CASH: OK. So not --
AMANPOUR: You earned it and it's a badge of honor.
CASH: Yes. I mean I don't love the wrinkles and all that business. But it is a sign that I've been a couple of places, I've been around the block
a few times.
AMANPOUR: I guess I say that because in New York, you look around and everybody of a certain age looks like they've been through a wind tunnel,
unrecognizable.
CASH: Shocking.
AMANPOUR: Shocking. I don't know why I brought it up but it's -- obsesses me.
CASH: But I often -- you know, I have four daughters and I think who will model to them how to age gracefully if not me. And if I'm panicked about
it or resist it or don't want it, then how are they going to know how to do it.
AMANPOUR: So which obviously brings me to the point that you sort of touched upon, how hard was it, how difficult was it for you as a woman in
this business?
CASH: Well, it is a boys' club. And, you know, I have plenty of my own Me Too stories and, you know.
AMANPOUR: Can we hear some?
CASH: I don't think these specifics are important but just fill in the blanks of radio promoters and record guys and, you know, being in a
business that was virtually all men at that point. And when I started out and they were trying to take advantage of that.
AMANPOUR: And how did you deal with it?
CASH: I kept my head down and I showed up for work. And I developed a thick skin and an open heart. I developed a thick skin but I was aware
that I had to keep my open heart if I wanted to work the way I work and do what I do, you know. Songwriter, you got to plumb some depths to do that.
But I also never -- I just assumed that I could play on a level playing field that I was as good or I was going to be as good with hard work anyway
and that I didn't have to defer. And I hated that thing of women songwriters, women musicians like we were the B team or something. I just
-- I don't like that.
AMANPOUR: And --
CASH: I bet you don't either.
AMANPOUR: I hate it. I mean I often think about how I dealt with it as well. And, you know, the trick is, as you say, put your head down, keep
working but you have to be careful not to become too tough.
CASH: Too rigid.
AMANPOUR: And too rigid and too invulnerable. I wonder whether you're aware of some of the backlash within the female circles --
CASH: Sure.
AMANPOUR: -- to Me Too and what you make about that. I mean I'm almost hearing women band together with certain men saying that, oh, we shouldn't
be characterized as snowflakes and they feel that somehow women who are standing up for themselves are taking on the mantle of victim.
CASH: Do you know what my middle daughter Chelsea calls that? Patriarchal Stockholm syndrome.
AMANPOUR: Oh, that's good.
CASH: Yes. Isn't that good?
AMANPOUR: Yes, she can market that one.
CASH: T-shirts, hats.
AMANPOUR: That's good.
CASH: I mean I have to agree. I think that's the case. I mean the patriarchy is not just -- it's not just men.
AMANPOUR: You are quite political in terms of issues that you choose. The whole sort of gun violence, obviously, issue came right to the heart of
your industry at Las Vegas last year when a crazy guy just mowed down people at a festival in Las Vegas.
And afterwards, you wrote country musicians stand up to the NRA. The stakes are too high to not disavow collusion with the NRA.
Explain that. It's quite pointed. I mean collusion with the NRA. What sort of response did you get and why did you put it that way?
CASH: Well, I have been an advocate for gun control and against gun violence for 20 years. I've served on boards. I've done [13:50:00] galas.
I've done our op-eds. That one was in the "New York Times".
I mean so this is not a new thing for me and I saw this kind of malicious inner weaving of the NRA with constant promotion and --
AMANPOUR: Tell me how because I'm not so familiar.
CASH: Well, particularly country artists, some of them would sign deals with the NRA, you know. I guess lucrative sponsorship deals or something.
And it seemed so wrong to me that there was -- people were conflating the NRA with patriotism. It's just wrong.
I'm a patriot and I think the Second Amendment is so abused and overused and is ripe for revision. And Amendment can be revised and so I said that
you know, country musicians don't conflate that, don't conflate patriotism with guns. And I said there were very few people who actually spoke up and
agreed. It was shocking to me.
AMANPOUR: Was that the opposite? I mean did you get sort of, in today's sort of jargon, trolled?
CASH: Sure. Of course. Yes, a lot of blowbacks.
AMANPOUR: Eventually in your industry?
CASH: No, not within my industry. Pop and rock artists, you know, they were like right on, I'm so glad you said that.
The country artist not so much. Maybe a couple but yes, their trolling was intense. You know, it comes and goes. But like I said, I have lost the
need to people please. I really don't care about the insults.
AMANPOUR: You know, we're all trying to figure out how to place this moment in history.
CASH: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I guess the closest thing that we come to is 1968. I mean we were all young in 1968 however, it was a very very divisive polarized and
tragic time with the assassinations of two great leaders here, Dr. King, RFK, huge demonstrations against the war, political protests here.
CASH: Kids getting killed on college campuses. I mean it was intense. I remind myself of that often like that was an intense time and we got
through it.
AMANPOUR: And that was obviously when your father was coming up and his music was the sort of, I guess, the bomb or the anthem.
CASH: Well, you had plenty of protest songs and his music is wow. You know, he was able to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time to oppose
the Vietnam War and to go play for the troops, you know. So that was a great model for me.
AMANPOUR: So how do you see your music, especially this new album, being relevant and useful for our time?
CASH: Well, I think a woman of my age assuming her own validity and telling her own truth has power just in itself. This is a mature life
lived and not without its serious bumps in the road and suit regrets and, you know, taking stock of myself and madness and loss and love and
mortality.
And realizing that in a long-term relationship, it's inevitable that one of you is going to leave the other. You know, I felt I had to write about
that as well and about trauma and early trauma, how hopefully you don't live with it the rest of your life.
But in some way you do try to get away from it, heal it, close it down. And I was thinking in writing "She Remembers Everything", what were you
like before the trauma, what would you have been, and how close to that can you get.
AMANPOUR: Fantastic. Rosanne Cash, thank you very much indeed.
CASH: Thank you so much. It was such an honor to be here with you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Likewise.
Thanks for watching.
And we're leaving you now with one more performance from Rosanne and her husband, John Leventhal. Everyone but Me from her new album She Remembers
Everything.
CASH: We run a similar course on a track laid with broken glass. So tie your shoes real tight. It goes by real fast. Mother and Father. Now that
you're gone. It's not nearly long enough. Still it seems too long.
END
