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Amanpour
Robert Redford`s New Film, "The Old Man and the Gun"; Politics and African-American Art; Lessons in Leadership from Nelson Mandela; Nelson Mandela`s 100th Birth Anniversary; Robert Redford`s New Film, "The Old Man and the Gun". Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 01, 2019 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[13:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour."
During the holiday season, we`re dipping into the archive and looking back at some of these years` highlights. So, here`s what`s coming up.
We remember great lessons and leadership from Nelson Mandela in an incredibly candid conversation with the great man`s widow, Graca Machel.
Also, ahead, why the Sundance kid says he`s retiring but isn`t really even at 82. My interview with the legendary Robert Redford.
Plus, a power couple gets real. Tamia and Grant Hill, singer and basketball star on how they keep normality and balance in their ultra-
successful lives.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I`m Christiane Amanpour in New York where more than 100 world leaders are gathering for the annual United
Nations general assembly.
It comes at a time when the Trump administration continues to challenge the historic world order on just about everything from trade to alliances to
America`s global leadership role. And what a difference a year makes.
Upon arrival at U.N. headquarters today, President Trump said that he will meet with the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un for a second time, "quite
soon." Remember, this time last year he had threatened to "totally destroy North Korea" and he called Kim "little rocket man." This year though,
world leaders are braced for a full-frontal Trump assault on Iran.
Into these turbulent times steps the memory of Nelson Mandela. The U.N. is marking 100 years since his birth and his legacy of enlightened leadership.
His widow, Graca Machel, told the assembled heads of state that they have a moral imperative and the ability to bring the death and destruction we
witness on a daily basis to an end.
Along with Mandela, Machel, co-founded the Elders, it`s a group of former world leaders working for peace, justice and human rights around the world.
And just before she took to the podium at the U.N. today, we sat down to talk leadership on everything, from politics to #MeToo, her own past as an
armed freedom fighter. And she also spoke movingly about her marriage to a man that she lost but an icon the world will always remember.
Graca Machel, welcome to the program.
GRACA MACHEL, WIDOW OF NELSON MANDELA: Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you how you`re feeling today because a few years ago when we spoke shortly -- well, a year after Nelson Mandela`s death you
said you`re just trying to get through it and sometimes you wake up every morning and don`t know what to do. How have those intervening years
treated you?
MACHEL: I had a reasonably good time after the second, the third year. But this being the fifth and with the concentration of celebrations on his
100 years, it has not been easy, because things come back, you now, relive the moments together, you are forced to think about who he is, the place he
has in history and it is mixed feelings when he is being celebrated but mostly at the personal level, I miss him most.
AMANPOUR: When you think about him at this time, as you say, it`s the 100th birthday, anniversary and it`s also a time when we are all talking
about the vacuum of global leadership, the crisis of global leadership. And Nelson Mandela was the epitome of what a great leader can and should
be.
Is there something particular apart from your very personal feelings that you feel the world is lacking without him in it?
MACHEL: Courage. I see -- Nelson Mandela, for me, is Madiba. I see Madiba`s leadership as the highest reference of courageous leadership in
face of extremely challenging situations, to go beyond himself and put the lives and the interests of his people at the highest level and prepare to
sacrifice personally and even to take risks which his leadership could be questioned by his colleagues but take the courage to do the right thing at
the right time. I think we lack this today.
The world is confronted with -- let`s use the example of conflict and peace, which exactly is where his contribution is more significant. We do
not have anyone who can take the courage to say, "The was in Syria has to stop." To say, "It`s unacceptable was is happening in Yemen and why in
South Sudan -- I mean, agreement after agreement nothing holds and people continue to be killed, displaced, refugees. I could go on and on. That
lack of courageous leadership, to do the right thing at the right time, I feel is what is missing.
AMANPOUR: Well, you`re here on the 100th anniversary of Madiba`s death. You have this very, very strong message you`re going to -- you`ll be giving
to the United Nations. And you`re here in the United States. President Trump is going to be here all this week. And you`ve said quite pointedly
that leadership and policy for the world cannot be made into 280 characters. I mean, you`re talking about the Twitter in chief. Am I
right?
MACHEL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And what is it that bothers you about what`s coming from the leader of the free world today?
MACHEL: I will escape talking certain individuals and leadership. I will leave that for other people to do it. But I think there is a kind of
perversion of the rules through which we elect, which means we select those who should be the best amongst the best precisely to defend and to protect
the interests of the majority.
So, if there is one thing I believe we should think about again is whether the electoral systems which we have, are they really delivering in terms of
the will of the people, which means the majority of the people? And I`m not talking about the developed world along, even in our part of the world.
So, let me say the mechanisms and the institutions and the operation we have put in place as the foundations and the edifice of delivering
democracy today, I think we should revisit. And to say, are they adequate? Is this the results which we intend? In many cases, I doubt.
AMANPOUR: Well, Graca Machel, I am asking you this because you have not just been the wife of two of the greatest African freedom fighters and
liberation fighters, Nelson Mandela and Samora Machel. But you yourself joined Frelimo, you yourself joined the liberation struggle at the age of
23, I think, if I`m not mistaken, in your own country, Mozambique.
Tell me what brought you to that struggle, how you help wage it and what that experience tells you about what you`re telling me now, the commitment
to democracy, the commitment to people`s rights, you know, keeping the promise of those struggles.?
MACHEL: I was a student when I joined Frelimo, because I believed that it was the single organization which represented the deepest aspirations of
the majority of Mozambicans.
AMANPOUR: And that was the time when you were trying to get rid of colonial rule?
MACHEL: Exactly. It was for colonial rule, which we succeeded. And at the first years of our independence, actually, they were galvanizing in
bringing an informed talk and to grassroots and to all sectors of society to build a common dream of what we wanted Mozambique to become. And I did
think it worked.
AMANPOUR: You have a pretty mean shot with AK-47. I mean, you weren`t just sort of hanging around the edges of these movements. You were a
fighter.
MACHEL: Yes, I was. I was. We all had to because it was not only to fight for freedom in general, it was to protect ourselves, to protect
people. We had what we called liberated areas. Areas where colonial power was not -- had no control. But now, again, we were invaded by the
Portuguese at the time and you had to protect.
One of our rules, particularly of my generation at the time, it was to make sure that those liberated areas were safe because we have the schools, we
had our clinics and activity, productive activity was continuing with the population there and they had to be protected. So, at any time you would
have to be ready if anything happens. And this is part of what has built me also to believe and in practice to say, "You know what, you do what has
to be done at the right time." And I learned this, it was consolidated with Madiba as well.
AMANPOUR: You also became Mozambique`s first female education secretary. So, you spent your life really working for children. I just wonder what
you make of the children being separated from their parents who are crossing the border into the United States and this complete nightmare for
humanity down there?
MACHEL: That`s again, when you believe this is a country which is made of refugees, most of the people in the United States came from somewhere, the
majority. So, they themselves, they come from families of refugees in different generations. You would expect that authorities in this country
would never, never discriminate against refugees, one, more particularly when it comes to children. So, we are amazed how this can happen
particularly in this country.
And again, when I say it looks like we need to revisit institutions, can you tell me, how does it happen that the judiciary seems not to have power
enough to say, "This cannot happen in this country. This is a democracy which has been consolidated, it`s unacceptable." It is sad. There is
institutions which are there, but in practice, why do they have to take so long time to resolve a problem when a child is being harassed is put
prison? The processes are too long and the traumas which left with the kids will live with them the rest of their lives.
So, there`s something here, again, in the delivery of the values and the principles of democracy which have to be much more efficient. It cannot be
the way. We have the luxury of waiting, and while we wait much more damage is done to people.
AMANPOUR: You mentioned the judiciary. Again, you`re here at a very, very important moment for the Supreme Court of the United States, the judiciary
and the rights and legal rights of many, including women, the nomination of Judge Kavanaugh and the whole sort of #MeToo moment that`s going on.
I wonder if you ever reflect on what`s happening with women in this country right now, the rising up movement, and you know, the risks still even in
the United States to women`s rights.
MACHEL: As you know, the issue of women`s rights is my life. I have to say that one of the biggest challenges of human family today is exactly to
accept and to respect the dignity of women, as full human beings who are not second class or are not treated just as half human.
What happens here in the United States is happening also all over the globe. You would wonder why we have so high rates of suicide, high rates
of harassment, of sexual harassment, because women are seen as if they are objects, they are not people with dignity. What is happening with us, that
after all these years in which we developed the values of human rights, of respect and such and such, it`s exactly between human relations. It`s no
longer the laws and the institutions. It`s in human relations where we fail to accept one another as equal. I think it`s a big issue of our
times.
AMANPOUR: You have it in your own family, I mean, your own daughter was aggressed by her partner, her eye was very, very severely damaged and
you`re trying to get accountability and damages. How difficult is it? I mean, here you are, you are Graca Machel, your daughter has been aggressed.
If it can happen in your family, it happens all over. What should happen to people who do that to women? I think she was aggressed and her eye was
severely damaged.
MACHEL: Yes, yes. Exactly. She can only see with one eye. This a very tough issue for me to talk about. Perhaps I was told through this assault
of my daughter that it is not because she was born in the family she was born, we are absolutely facing the same kind of challenges like any other
family in any other level of society, and this has humbled us.
But your question is accountability. Christiane, I will tell you, institutions are not prepared to be accountable when it comes to women.
No, not at all. Not at all. There are very few cases which have taken from A to Z and you can say justice has been served, very few cases.
There`s all kinds of tricks -- if my daughter could tell the story, you would be horrified. And precisely as you are saying, she is my daughter,
she is known in Mozambique and she had to go through all of this. That was perhaps the lesion which we should have as a family and that`s why she
decided to establish an organization through which she`s helping other women who are survivors of violence.
And it`s to say its part of what I said at the beginning, women are not treated as full human beings with respect to their dignity. They are
things. They are -- you know. So, they can be treated the way they do and those who are responsible, they don`t even shiver. And this encourage, of
course, other perpetrators because they know there won`t be consequences. And if there are consequences, it`s one amongst 1,000. And so, we have a
huge, huge issue here with the issues general rights (ph).
AMANPOUR: I mean, it`s a really live issue, not just in the situation of your daughter and other violence like that but also, as I said, in the
whole #MeToo movement we`re seeing from here all across the world right now.
I want to ask maybe about something a little happier. Clearly, you met and married two men who appreciated a woman like you, a strong woman, an
intelligent woman, a fighter, somebody with great heart and compassion and intellect, who wasn`t just going to sit down and be a good wife. I know
it`s sometimes irritates you when you`re asked, how was it that you married these two amazing leaders?
MACHEL: I don`t think I can explain. First, you have to remember that if Samora had not been killed, I would not have married Madiba, that`s one.
Second, if Madiba had not divorced Winnie, I wouldn`t have married him.
So, the way circumstances when I think with Samora is, we had that complete identity around the freedom of our people. We are both freedom fighters
and we really embraced completely the principles of what is the meaning of being in society and to give to your society.
Then I -- he was killed and that had about eight years after this I met Madiba much later. And I met Madiba at a very particular time. He was
very lonely, very lonely, because it was after his divorce. And we started talking and he discovered that despite my sort of exuberant personality, I
was also lonely. So it was a meeting of two souls who had known, I mean, what it means to be in a marriage, but at the same time, they were lonely.
And there were also many issues in which we were absolutely aligned. The children issues being one of them, just to give an example, one of them.
So, we started talking and the meeting of souls then facilitated the rest. That`s what I can say. But it was circumstances. It`s not like other
people find -- like it was an extraordinary thing to marry. I married two men. It`s not anything extraordinary. There are many women who have two
marriages in life. It`s simply that, in my case, they happened to be extraordinary human beings, and I want to underline this, extraordinary
human beings and that I can say I was very lucky.
AMANPOUR: I read that it took you many, many years, you wore black for a long time after Samora, the President of Mozambique, was killed in that
plane crash. And then you also said that you were fortunate to meet Madiba at the best of his time. In other words, almost after his presidency,
after the prison, after the struggle. Tell me about that, why was that the best time?
MACHEL: We were both mature. And so, love for us is it was not only to say, "Oh, you have beautiful eyes," it was looking deep into the soul of
the partner you have. And because of that, our connection was really very, very deep. Second, Madiba had gone through all kind of, you know,
sacrifices in life and he was complete -- he was almost completing his term as head of state.
For the first time, he was going to have time for himself and time for family, and even time to enjoy the company of his wife. I don`t want to go
back to say the circumstances in which his first marriage was. But the reality is that they were very turbulent years for them. Time of being a
family was very, very short.
So, in reality, Madiba had the opportunity to enjoy the normalcy of a family is when he married me. And so, it was the best for me because both
in terms of his soul to be in peace with himself, of having delivered the best he could to his own people, he could be in peace with himself. At the
same time, he could have a family.
I gave him the opportunity of having under his roof his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. And this has given him a lot of
joy. Because he -- during the years of prison, he wanted to have a family. And for the first time, he could have this. So, it was the best of times
because his spirit was in peace with himself. His soul could connect in such deep way with another soul.
Socially, he could have really the opportunity of being the head of his family and enjoy time with his grandchildren and great-grandchildren. So,
he was really a happy man. So, I met him at a time he could be a happy man. And that is what really gives me also the joy that this man we
celebrate in all forms, et cetera, et cetera, at the end of his life, I made him happy.
AMANPOUR: That is just beautiful. And it`s wonderful to be able to speak to you on this, the 100th anniversary of Madiba`s birth and you`ve been so
open and I thank you.
MACHEL: Thank you. Thank you, Christiane. A pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Such candid memories. And turning now from a real-life love story to one of Hollywood`s biggest heartthrobs who is also a lead when it
comes to the environment and he`s now also speaking up for women`s rights.
From "Barefoot in the Park" to "Out of Africa" Robert Redford`s career spans an extraordinary range of quintessentially American roles. His new
film "The Old Man and the Gun" is about the real-life bank robber, Forrest Tucker, who started as a teen and kept on robbing well into his 70s, in and
out of prison all that time.
We talked about Redford`s life, these times, and why, when he says he`s retiring, it might not be all it`s cracked up to be.
Robert Redford, welcome back to my program.
ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR/FILMMAKER: My pleasure.
AMANPOUR: We have talked a lot over the years about your amazing brilliant film career. And now, you`ve come out with your "Man and the Gun," which
is, again, about outlaws.
REDFORD: I`ve already related to outlaws. I felt comfortable around them. And so, I think, yeah, why not.
AMANPOUR: Forrest Tucker is an amazing guy. I mean, he was a robber, a bank robber, since he was a teenager.
REDFORD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And even when he had the chance to go straight, he just didn`t, he kept -- tell me, what is it about Forrest Tucker?
REDFORD: Well, for me, what it was about was he just love robbing banks, he did it with a great joy and a smile on his face, and he always got
caught, he always went to prison and he always escaped. So, for me, I think it must have been just the three of those things pulled together but
mostly escaping. Then he get caught again, he go back in to prison and then he`d escape again. So, I just felt that was a great story because he
had fun doing it.
And for me, the last film I did -- I love doing it with Jane, Jane Fonda, was kind of a heavy lift, it was a very sad love story. And so -- and kind
of on the dark side. So, I thought, it would be nice to step up into something more upbeat and fun. So, that`s what this represents.
AMANPOUR: Especially for these times?
REDFORD: Especially these, these are dark times.
AMANPOUR: So, did you actually think about that when you were doing this fairly fun film?
REDFORD: I did. I thought we were just surrounded by darkness and we can`t escape it, you know, it`s beyond our ability to deal with, it`s just
there. And the only thing we can do is go against it a little bit. I thought this film did that.
AMANPOUR: So, it`s also a love story in a way. I mean, you meet Sissy Spacek. She is the character.
REDFORD: That was easy.
AMANPOUR: And it is actually very moving to see the two of you have this relationship and especially, two people of a certain age, you know, finding
this love late in life --
REDFORD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- or this (INAUDIBLE), this relationship. So, there`s a great clip which we`re going to play where you are explaining to Sissy Spacek,
the character, why you love doing the robberies and how it`s done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: Let`s take this place. Say it was a bank and say that that camera up there, that was really a teller`s window and you just walk in,
real calm. So, you walk right up, look her in the eye and you say, "Ma`am, this a robbery," and you show her the gun like this and you say, "I don`t
want to you get hurt because I like you. I like you a lot." So don`t go breaking my heart now, okay?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You`ve done quite a few outlaw-ish films, I mean, the best, most famous one of course is "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" and then there
was "The Sting" and you paired up with Paul Newman. But what I was fascinated about reading, you know, a lot of the stuff about you, is that
you were kind of like that as a kid. You were a bit of an outlaw yourself, you were a rebel.
REDFORD: Yes, that`s true. As I got older and went into acting, I was drawn to the idea of outlaw characters. What`s really interesting though,
but I don`t how many people have picked up in terms of Paul Newman and I that when we did "Butch Cassidy" initially, he was offered "The Sundance
Kid." And I was going to be Butch Cassidy. And then, I met with the director, and when I met with George Roy Hill, I said, "Well, yes, I could
do that but I`m much more drawn to "The Sundance Kid." And he got convinced of this. So, I played Sundance. So, they switched the title.
It was originally going to be "The Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy."
AMANPOUR: Well, we have to play, you know, the iconic clip from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," which is practically at the end of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL NEWMAN, ACTOR: I`ll jump first.
REDFORD: No.
NEWMAN: Then you jump first.
REDFORD: No, I said.
NEWMAN: What`s the matter with you?
REDFORD: I can`t swim.
NEWMAN: What, are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That gave you a whole new exposure. I mean, that was what launched you into the career that you`re now, you know, apparently retiring
from. Are you really retiring?
REDFORD: No, I don`t --
AMANPOUR: Is this really your last film?
REDFORD: No, no. I think that`s a mistake. I should never have said anything like that. I think just moving into a different territory. I`ve
acted long enough, you know. But I didn`t want to make a big deal out of it because I thought that distracted from the value of the film and the
cast. It was a wonderful cast that I was working with.
AMANPOUR: So, can I just get it straight. Is this the last film you plan to do as an actor?
REDFORD: Maybe.
AMANPOUR: So, I`m going to play you a clip of when I asked you the same thing in an interview we did in Paris in 2015 and you were
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CNN`S AMANPOUR
Lessons in Leadership from Nelson Mandela; Nelson Mandela`s 100th Birth Anniversary; Robert Redford`s New Film, "The Old Man and the Gun". Aired 1-
2p ET
Aired September 24, 2018 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here is what`s coming up.
It`s the annual meeting of world leaders at the U.N. in New York, and we remember the great lessons in leadership from Nelson Mandela. Our
incredibly candid conversation with the great man`s widow, Graca Machel.
Also, ahead, where do these world leaders go for the best health care in the world? The mayo clinic in Minnesota. Our Walter Isaacson speaks to
the award-winning historian, Ken Burns, about his new documentary.
Plus, why the now 82-year-old Sundance kid isn`t really retiring even though his new film "The Old Man and the Gun" might be his last on-camera
role.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I`m Christiane Amanpour in New York where more than 100 world leaders are gathering for the annual United
Nations general assembly.
It comes at a time when the Trump administration continues to challenge the historic world order on just about everything from trade to alliances to
America`s global leadership role. And what a difference a year makes.
Upon arrival at U.N. headquarters today, President Trump said that he will meet with the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un for a second time, "quite
soon." Remember, this time last year he had threatened to "totally destroy North Korea" and he called Kim "little rocket man." This year though,
world leaders are braced for a full-frontal Trump assault on Iran.
Into these turbulent times steps the memory of Nelson Mandela. The U.N. is marking 100 years since his birth and his legacy of enlightened leadership.
His widow, Graca Machel, told the assembled heads of state that they have a moral imperative and the ability to bring the death and destruction we
witness on a daily basis to an end.
Along with Mandela, Machel, co-founded the Elders, it`s a group of former world leaders working for peace, justice and human rights around the world.
And just before she took to the podium at the U.N. today, we sat down to talk leadership on everything from politics to #MeToo, her own past as an
armed freedom fighter. And she also spoke movingly about her marriage to a man that she lost but an icon the world will always remember.
Graca Machel, welcome to the program.
GRACA MACHEL, WIDOW OF NELSON MANDELA: Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you how you`re feeling today because a few years ago when we spoke shortly -- well, a year after Nelson Mandela`s death you
said you`re just trying to get through it and sometimes you wake up every morning and don`t know what to do. How have those intervening years
treated you?
MACHEL: I had a reasonably good time after the second, the third year. But this being the fifth and with the concentration of celebrations on his
100 years, it has not been easy, because things come back, you now, relive the moments together, you are forced to think about who he is, the place he
has in history and it is mixed feelings when he is being celebrated but mostly at the personal level, I miss him most.
AMANPOUR: When you think about him at this time, as you say, it`s the 100th birthday, anniversary and it`s also a time when we are all talking
about the vacuum of global leadership, the crisis of global leadership. And Nelson Mandela was the epitome of what a great leader can and should
be.
Is there something particular apart from your very personal feelings that you feel the world is lacking without him in it?
MACHEL: Courage. I see -- Nelson Mandela, for me, is Madiba. I see Madiba`s leadership as the highest reference of courageous leadership in
face of extremely challenging situations, to go beyond himself and put the lives and the interests of his people at the highest level and prepare to
sacrifice personally and even to take risks which his leadership could be questioned by his colleagues but take the courage to do the right thing at
the right time. I think we lack this today.
The world is confronted with -- let`s use the example of conflict and peace, which exactly is where his contribution is more significant. We do
not have anyone who can take the courage to say, "The was in Syria has to stop." To say, "It`s unacceptable was is happening in Yemen and why in
South Sudan -- I mean, agreement after agreement nothing holds and people continue to be killed, displaced, refugees. I could go on and on. That
lack of courageous leadership, to do the right thing at the right time, I feel is what is missing.
AMANPOUR: Well, you`re here on the 100th anniversary of Madiba`s death. You have this very, very strong message you`re going to -- you`ll be giving
to the United Nations. And you`re here in the United States. President Trump is going to be here all this week. And you`ve said quite pointedly
that leadership and policy for the world cannot be made into 280 characters. I mean, you`re talking about the Twitter in chief. Am I
right?
MACHEL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And what is it that bothers you about what`s coming from the leader of the free world today?
MACHEL: I will escape talking certain individuals and leadership. I will leave that for other people to do it. But I think there is a kind of
perversion of the rules through which we elect, which means we select those who should be the best amongst the best precisely to defend and to protect
the interests of the majority.
So, if there is one thing I believe we should think about again is whether the electoral systems which we have, are they really delivering in terms of
the will of the people, which means the majority of the people? And I`m not talking about the developed world along, even in our part of the world.
So, let me say the mechanisms and the institutions and the operation we have put in place as the foundations and the edifice of delivering
democracy today, I think we should revisit. And to say, are they adequate? Is this the results which we intend? In many cases, I doubt.
AMANPOUR: Well, Graca Machel, I am asking you this because you have not just been the wife of two of the greatest African freedom fighters and
liberation fighters, Nelson Mandela and Samora Machel. But you yourself joined Frelimo, you yourself joined the liberation struggle at the age of
23, I think, if I`m not mistaken, in your own country, Mozambique.
Tell me what brought you to that struggle, how you help wage it and what that experience tells you about what you`re telling me now, the commitment
to democracy, the commitment to people`s rights, you know, keeping the promise of those struggles.?
MACHEL: I was a student when I joined Frelimo, because I believed that it was the single organization which represented the deepest aspirations of
the majority of Mozambicans.
AMANPOUR: And that was the time when you were trying to get rid of colonial rule?
MACHEL: Exactly. It was for colonial rule, which we succeeded. And at the first years of our independence, actually, they were galvanizing in
bringing an informed talk and to grassroots and to all sectors of society to build a common dream of what we wanted Mozambique to become. And I did
think it worked.
AMANPOUR: You have a pretty mean shot with AK-47. I mean, you weren`t just sort of hanging around the edges of these movements. You were a
fighter.
MACHEL: Yes, I was. I was. We all had to because it was not only to fight for freedom in general, it was to protect ourselves, to protect
people. We had what we called liberated areas. Areas where colonial power was not -- had no control. But now, again, we were invaded by the
Portuguese at the time and you had to protect.
One of our rules, particularly of my generation at the time, it was to make sure that those liberated areas were safe because we have the schools, we
had our clinics and activity, productive activity was continuing with the population there and they had to be protected. So, at any time you would
have to be ready if anything happens. And this is part of what has built me also to believe and in practice to say, "You know what, you do what has
to be done at the right time." And I learned this, it was consolidated with Madiba as well.
AMANPOUR: You also became Mozambique`s first female education secretary. So, you spent your life really working for children. I just wonder what
you make of the children being separated from their parents who are crossing the border into the United States and this complete nightmare for
humanity down there?
MACHEL: That`s again, when you believe this is a country which is made of refugees, most of the people in the United States came from somewhere, the
majority. So, they themselves, they come from families of refugees in different generations. You would expect that authorities in this country
would never, never discriminate against refugees, one, more particularly when it comes to children. So, we are amazed how this can happen
particularly in this country.
And again, when I say it looks like we need to revisit institutions, can you tell me, how does it happen that the judiciary seems not to have power
enough to say, "This cannot happen in this country. This is a democracy which has been consolidated, it`s unacceptable." It is sad. There is
institutions which are there, but in practice, why do they have to take so long time to resolve a problem when a child is being harassed is put
prison? The processes are too long and the traumas which left with the kids will live with them the rest of their lives.
So, there`s something here, again, in the delivery of the values and the principles of democracy which have to be much more efficient. It cannot be
the way. We have the luxury of waiting, and while we wait much more damage is done to people.
AMANPOUR: You mentioned the judiciary. Again, you`re here at a very, very important moment for the Supreme Court of the United States, the judiciary
and the rights and legal rights of many, including women, the nomination of Judge Kavanaugh and the whole sort of #MeToo moment that`s going on.
I wonder if you ever reflect on what`s happening with women in this country right now, the rising up movement, and you know, the risks still even in
the United States to women`s rights.
MACHEL: As you know, the issue of women`s rights is my life. I have to say that one of the biggest challenges of human family today is exactly to
accept and to respect the dignity of women, as full human beings who are not second class or are not treated just as half human.
What happens here in the United States is happening also all over the globe. You would wonder why we have so high rates of suicide, high rates
of harassment, of sexual harassment, because women are seen as if they are objects, they are not people with dignity. What is happening with us, that
after all these years in which we developed the values of human rights, of respect and such and such, it`s exactly between human relations. It`s no
longer the laws and the institutions. It`s in human relations where we fail to accept one another as equal. I think it`s a big issue of our
times.
AMANPOUR: You have it in your own family, I mean, your own daughter was aggressed by her partner, her eye was very, very severely damaged and
you`re trying to get accountability and damages. How difficult is it? I mean, here you are, you are Graca Machel, your daughter has been aggressed.
If it can happen in your family, it happens all over. What should happen to people who do that to women? I think she was aggressed and her eye was
severely damaged.
MACHEL: Yes, yes. Exactly. She can only see with one eye. This a very tough issue for me to talk about. Perhaps I was told through this assault
of my daughter that it is not because she was born in the family she was born, we are absolutely facing the same kind of challenges like any other
family in any other level of society, and this has humbled us.
But your question is accountability. Christiane, I will tell you, institutions are not prepared to be accountable when it comes to women.
No, not at all. Not at all. There are very few cases which have taken from A to Z and you can say justice has been served, very few cases.
There`s all kinds of tricks -- if my daughter could tell the story, you would be horrified. And precisely as you are saying, she is my daughter,
she is known in Mozambique and she had to go through all of this. That was perhaps the lesion which we should have as a family and that`s why she
decided to establish an organization through which she`s helping other women who are survivors of violence.
And it`s to say its part of what I said at the beginning, women are not treated as full human beings with respect to their dignity. They are
things. They are -- you know. So, they can be treated the way they do and those who are responsible, they don`t even shiver. And this encourage, of
course, other perpetrators because they know there won`t be consequences. And if there are consequences, it`s one amongst 1,000. And so, we have a
huge, huge issue here with the issues general rights (ph).
AMANPOUR: I mean, it`s a really live issue, not just in the situation of your daughter and other violence like that but also, as I said, in the
whole #MeToo movement we`re seeing from here all across the world right now.
I want to ask maybe about something a little happier. Clearly, you met and married two men who appreciated a woman like you, a strong woman, an
intelligent woman, a fighter, somebody with great heart and compassion and intellect, who wasn`t just going to sit down and be a good wife. I know
it`s sometimes irritates you when you`re asked, how was it that you married these two amazing leaders?
MACHEL: I don`t think I can explain. First, you have to remember that if Samora had not been killed, I would not have married Madiba, that`s one.
Second, if Madiba had not divorced Winnie, I wouldn`t have married him.
So, the way circumstances when I think with Samora is, we had that complete identity around the freedom of our people. We are both freedom fighters
and we really embraced completely the principles of what is the meaning of being in society and to give to your society.
Then I -- he was killed and that had about eight years after this I met Madiba much later. And I met Madiba at a very particular time. He was
very lonely, very lonely, because it was after his divorce. And we started talking and he discovered that despite my sort of exuberant personality, I
was also lonely. So it was a meeting of two souls who had known, I mean, what it means to be in a marriage, but at the same time, they were lonely.
And there were also many issues in which we were absolutely aligned. The children issues being one of them, just to give an example, one of them.
So, we started talking and the meeting of souls then facilitated the rest. That`s what I can say. But it was circumstances. It`s not like other
people find -- like it was an extraordinary thing to marry. I married two men. It`s not anything extraordinary. There are many women who have two
marriages in life. It`s simply that, in my case, they happened to be extraordinary human beings, and I want to underline this, extraordinary
human beings and that I can say I was very lucky.
AMANPOUR: I read that it took you many, many years, you wore black for a long time after Samora, the President of Mozambique, was killed in that
plane crash. And then you also said that you were fortunate to meet Madiba at the best of his time. In other words, almost after his presidency,
after the prison, after the struggle. Tell me about that, why was that the best time?
MACHEL: We were both mature. And so, love for us is it was not only to say, "Oh, you have beautiful eyes," it was looking deep into the soul of
the partner you have. And because of that, our connection was really very, very deep. Second, Madiba had gone through all kind of, you know,
sacrifices in life and he was complete -- he was almost completing his term as head of state.
For the first time, he was going to have time for himself and time for family, and even time to enjoy the company of his wife. I don`t want to go
back to say the circumstances in which his first marriage was. But the reality is that they were very turbulent years for them. Time of being a
family was very, very short.
So, in reality, Madiba had the opportunity to enjoy the normalcy of a family is when he married me. And so, it was the best for me because both
in terms of his soul to be in peace with himself, of having delivered the best he could to his own people, he could be in peace with himself. At the
same time, he could have a family.
I gave him the opportunity of having under his roof his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. And this has given him a lot of
joy. Because he -- during the years of prison, he wanted to have a family. And for the first time, he could have this. So, it was the best of times
because his spirit was in peace with himself. His soul could connect in such deep way with another soul.
Socially, he could have really the opportunity of being the head of his family and enjoy time with his grandchildren and great-grandchildren. So,
he was really a happy man. So, I met him at a time he could be a happy man. And that is what really gives me also the joy that this man we
celebrate in all forms, et cetera, et cetera, at the end of his life, I made him happy.
AMANPOUR: That is just beautiful. And it`s wonderful to be able to speak to you on this, the 100th anniversary of Madiba`s birth and you`ve been so
open and I thank you.
MACHEL: Thank you. Thank you, Christiane. A pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Such candid memories. And turning now from a real-life love story to one of Hollywood`s biggest heartthrobs who is also a lead when it
comes to the environment and he`s now also speaking up for women`s right.
From "Barefoot in the Park" to "Out of Africa" Robert Redford`s career spans an extraordinary range of quintessentially American roles. His new
film "The Old Man and the Gun" is about the real-life bank robber, Forrest Tucker, who started as a teen and kept on robbing well into his 70s, in and
out of prison all that time.
We talked about Redford`s life, these times, and why, when he says he`s retiring, it might not be all it`s cracked up to be.
Robert Redford, welcome back to my program.
ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR/FILMMAKER: My pleasure.
AMANPOUR: We have talked a lot over the years about your amazing brilliant film career. And now, you`ve come out with your "Man and the Gun," which
is, again, about outlaws.
REDFORD: I`ve already related to outlaws. I felt comfortable around them. And so, I think, yeah, why not.
AMANPOUR: Forrest Tucker is an amazing guy. I mean, he was a robber, a bank robber, since he was a teenager.
REDFORD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And even when he had the chance to go straight, he just didn`t, he kept -- tell me, what is it about Forrest Tucker?
REDFORD: Well, for me, what it was about was he just love robbing banks, he did it with a great joy and a smile on his face, and he always got
caught, he always went to prison and he always escaped. So, for me, I think it must have been just the three of those things pulled together but
mostly escaping. Then he get caught again, he go back in to prison and then he`d escape again. So, I just felt that was a great story because he
had fun doing it.
And for me, the last film I did -- I love doing it with Jane, Jane Fonda, was kind of a heavy lift, it was a very sad love story. And so -- and kind
of on the dark side. So, I thought, it would be nice to step up into something more upbeat and fun. So, that`s what this represents.
AMANPOUR: Especially for these times?
REDFORD: Especially these, these are dark times.
AMANPOUR: So, did you actually think about that when you were doing this fairly fun film?
REDFORD: I did. I thought we were just surrounded by darkness and we can`t escape it, you know, it`s beyond our ability to deal with, it`s just
there. And the only thing we can do is go against it a little bit. I thought this film did that.
AMANPOUR: So, it`s also a love story in a way. I mean, you meet Sissy Spacek. She is the character.
REDFORD: That was easy.
AMANPOUR: And it is actually very moving to see the two of you have this relationship and especially, two people of a certain age, you know, finding
this love late in life --
REDFORD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- or this (INAUDIBLE), this relationship. So, there`s a great clip which we`re going to play where you are explaining to Sissy Spacek,
the character, why you love doing the robberies and how it`s done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: Let`s take this place. Say it was a bank and say that that camera up there, that was really a teller`s window and you just walk in,
real calm. So, you walk right up, look her in the eye and you say, "Ma`am, this a robbery," and you show her the gun like this and you say, "I don`t
want to you get hurt because I like you. I like you a lot." So don`t go breaking my heart now, okay?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You`ve done quite a few outlaw-ish films, I mean, the best, most famous one of course is "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" and then there
was "The Sting" and you paired up with Paul Newman. But what I was fascinated about reading, you know, a lot of the stuff about you, is that
you were kind of like that as a kid. You were a bit of an outlaw yourself, you were a rebel.
REDFORD: Yes, that`s true. As I got older and went into acting, I was drawn to the idea of outlaw characters. What`s really interesting though,
but I don`t how many people have picked up in terms of Paul Newman and I that when we did "Butch Cassidy" initially, he was offered "The Sundance
Kid." And I was going to be Butch Cassidy. And then, I met with the director, and when I met with George Roy Hill, I said, "Well, yes, I could
do that but I`m much more drawn to "The Sundance Kid." And he got convinced of this. So, I played Sundance. So, they switched the title.
It was originally going to be "The Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy."
AMANPOUR: Well, we have to play, you know, the iconic clip from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," which is practically at the end of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL NEWMAN, ACTOR: I`ll jump first.
REDFORD: No.
NEWMAN: Then you jump first.
REDFORD: No, I said.
NEWMAN: What`s the matter with you?
REDFORD: I can`t swim.
NEWMAN: What, are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That gave you a whole new exposure. I mean, that was what launched you into the career that you`re now, you know, apparently retiring
from. Are you really retiring?
REDFORD: No, I don`t --
AMANPOUR: Is this really your last film?
REDFORD: No, no. I think that`s a mistake. I should never have said anything like that. I think just moving into a different territory. I`ve
acted long enough, you know. But I didn`t want to make a big deal out of it because I thought that distracted from the value of the film and the
cast. It was a wonderful cast that I was working with.
AMANPOUR: So, can I just get it straight. Is this the last film you plan to do as an actor?
[13:30:00]
REDFORD: Maybe.
AMANPOUR: I`m going to play you a clip of when I asked you the same thing in an interview we did in Paris in 2015, and you were already talking about
potentially, you know, moving back from doing -- you know, being an actor.
And I asked you, are you really ready to retire? This is what you told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: I mean I say - I want to kick back and I do twice as much as I`ve done. I think probably as I really look back on it, I don`t really mean
it. I think the idea seemed good, but when you get right down to it, I don`t think that`s who I am.
I think the idea is when you`re born, you -- when you`re -- when you`re being raised, you want to make the most of your life. I mean I guess
that`s what I decided, I want to make the most of what I`ve been given. And you keep pushing yourself forward, you try new things and that`s
invigorating. And I guess I found out that rather than retiring, that just feels better. Just keep moving as long as you can keep moving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: That`s it, that`s it.
AMANPOUR: That`s it.
REDFORD: I`m still the same.
AMANPOUR: Still the same.
REDFORD: I still feel the same way. So rather than talking about retiring, you just moved -- kind of slip easily into another territory.
AMANPOUR: And particularly a territory that you want to slip into now is which?
[13:30:00] REDFORD: Directing. Directing and producing, yes.
AMANPOUR: I mean obviously you`re phenomenal at directing film, for which you got an Oscar was "Ordinary People" back in the 1980s.
REDFORD: Yes, that was surprising, yes.
AMANPOUR: That was a long, long time ago. And even back then, you tackled something that wasn`t being tackled necessarily in public on the screen,
the idea of mental illness, this family that was so torn apart by the death of one of their sons.
What was it about the subject matter at that time in suburban America that made you want to do that film?
REDFORD: Because I was very drawn to the idea that a lot of people wanted to appear to be something they weren`t. And that a lot of people were not
really happy but tried to appear to be happy.
And when I went into that territory in Lake Forest, Illinois, I realized that there were a lot of people there that what was really important to
them is how they looked, how they seemed, their lawn was cut, you know. And yet underneath that was perhaps a different story, a darker one.
And I was very attracted to that idea, but let`s explore the darker underpinnings of what seemed to be a very happy, positive life.
AMANPOUR: And so in this family, as I said, one of the sons drowned, died in a sailing accident. And the clip we`re going to play, and of course,
that`s the Oscar you got for that film, for directing it, is the son -- the surviving son explaining to his psychiatrist the guilt he feels.
REDFORD: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feelings are scary and sometimes they`re painful. And if you can`t feel pain, then you`re not going to feel anything else either.
You know what I`m saying?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: Pain`s part of the deal, you know. Pain`s part of the picture. And you can`t shy away from it, you can`t turn away from it, it`s just
real. Just live with it, be with it.
But also there`s another side to that, be with that too. And then it`s more balance. If you try to deny pain, if you try to deny darkness, then
you`re going down a one-way street and it`s a two-way street. And I think you have to acknowledge both.
AMANPOUR: Another thing that is a dark cloud around all of us right now is this notion of where`s the truth, this notion of fake news that has become
-- because of President Trump, now a clarion call for some despicable people and undemocratic dictators all around the world, who when they don`t
like something, accuse the press of, you know, peddling fake news.
Again, you know, it just so happens that one of the greatest films you made, "All the President`s Men", is all about investigating, holding
accountable, and looking for the truth. What do you think about "All the President`s Men" and having done that film?
REDFORD: I think we`re in a similar spot now. I think that the powers that`s out there that`s taken us to the brink where you no longer know what
the truth is. And so if you don`t know what the truth is, how can you talk about what is truthful or not?
So I think we`re right at that brink. And I guess I see it metaphorically as it used to be that two sides would come together, they would cross the
aisle so to speak. They would cross the aisle to work together to teach something that would benefit the public.
And now there`s no longer -- it`s no longer an aisle to be crossed, it`s a moat. There`s a gigantic chasm between two points of view, and they`re not
crossing to work with each other. They`re getting ideologically rigid and stuck. And we`re the losers and I think that`s got to change.
AMANPOUR: The whole idea of anonymous is all of a sudden in the spotlight. Again, I want to play this little clip because it was Deep Throat
anonymous. And this is Deep Throat talking to you in that basement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forget the myths the media`s created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys and things got out of
hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s coming from the cold. Supposedly he`s got a lawyer with $25,000 in a brown paper bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Follow the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mean -- where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well I can`t tell you that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you could tell me that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I have to do this my way. You tell me what you know and I`ll confirm. I`ll keep you in the right direction if I can, but
that`s all. Just follow the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REDFORD: So that still applies.
AMANPOUR: Still applies.
REDFORD: Well I mean, gosh, as far as I`m concerned, going back to the scene you just showed, the -- what was appealing to me was not so much the
subject at hand, as it was their relationship. [13:35:00] I was drawn to the fact that two guys who were very different, one guy was a Republican,
the other guy was a liberal. One guy was a (INAUDIBLE) the other guy was a Jew. They really didn`t get along. They didn`t much care for each other,
but they had to work together.
And so for me, the film was about their relationship having to come together to get to the truth. It wasn`t so much about where the truth was
or wasn`t, it was about how their journey to get to that point. That was what it was for me.
AMANPOUR: The whole MeToo movement, which started in your industry in Hollywood, which is I think fascinated for the floodgates that it opened.
Had you any inkling that this was sort of derringer in Hollywood, that big producers or directors or others were using this power over so many people,
including presumably a lot of your costars?
REDFORD: Yes, I was very much aware of that. In fact, that was partly the reason for wanting to start independent film, because I felt there was only
one category, which was major features, you know, and I was part of that.
And I realized that the bottom line for major studios, their ambition was to make money. So profit was the intention. And I thought well, OK, I
understand that, that`s part of the deal. But on the other hand, there are other stories that are not being told that are more diverse, more
independent-minded.
And I thought well why don`t we create that category just so it could be added to the main one. It wasn`t ever meant to go against it. It wasn`t
ever meant to cancel it out. It was just meant to augment it.
AMANPOUR: So that`s what you do with Sundance, you gave life to independent movies and documentaries and again you were on the cutting edge
of that, given how long ago you started it. But in terms of the sexual abuse, harassment, praying on female co-stars, were you aware of that?
REDFORD: I was, sure, yes. But I think I probably took it somewhat for granted because it was so pervasive, it was just part of the deal.
AMANPOUR: Really?
REDFORD: Yes, I think so. I think it was just there and has been for a long time. I didn`t pay much attention to it. I wasn`t a part of it
obviously, but I didn`t -- I just considered that`s what it is, you know.
The only thing I was interested in was creating an alternative, that was my ambition. But yes, I was aware that that existed, yes. You have the
casting couch.
AMANPOUR: Would you -- might you have said something if you knew? Because some people say, well if you knew about it, why didn`t you say anything
about it?
REDFORD: Because it didn`t come close to home. It didn`t come to me. It didn`t come to my feed. You know, it just was out there.
And I didn`t pay a lot -- I just said that`s the way it was. I didn`t like it but I didn`t see it was my job to do anything about it because it was
just so pervasive. You know, I just focused on creating an alternative. So now it`s --
AMANPOUR: So do you think now the moment is important --
REDFORD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- this historical moment?
REDFORD: I do. I think it`s really important, particularly for women.
AMANPOUR: Yes, of course. And what I`m interested in also is women who age and who age out of great roles and obviously women who don`t get paid
equal to men for the roles that they play, which is really interesting in the scene we`re going to play between you and Sissy Spacek in this film
"The Old Man and the Gun".
She`s -- you`re sitting on the porch and she`s sort of talking about, you know, life as it rolls right past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SISSY SPACEK: Now, it`s OK to be selfish because you think about 10 years from now, where will you be? What will you be doing? Now, whenever I
close the door, I think, "oh, is this the last time I`ll ever have a chance to do whatever that thing was."
REDFORD: You know what I do when the door closes?
SPACEK: What`s that?
REDFORD: I jump out the window?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, I guess for a man, it`s kind of easy. You`re a heartthrob. You`re so handsome. You`ve had all these roles and you can go
on having roles for as long as you want.
But Sissy Spacek, who`s a brilliant actress, and all those people and women of her generation have found it very difficult to keep getting roles.
REDFORD: That`s sad. If you look at -- for example, if you look at European films and you look at actresses like Jeanne Moreau and you see
films like "Jules and Jim" and you see older actresses having key roles, and they do beautifully and they`re aged -- they`ve aged.
And I think that`s one of the downsides of Hollywood is that for -- at least for a while, it may be changing now, but at least for a while, it
wouldn`t accept aging. Everyone had to be eternally young. And think of a loss of actors, actors that we lost that could have kept acting if we had
followed the European example.
AMANPOUR: Robert Redford, [13:40:00] thank you very much.
REDFORD: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Now, we break away from the movies to talk a little love, basketball, and music with our next guests, the power couple, Tamia and
Grant Hill.
She is a six-time Grammy nominated singer. He is an NBA Hall of Famer, playing top class basketball for some 20 years. Together, they sat down
with Michel Martin to talk politics, African-American art, and how their 20-year marriage has survived the test of time, injury, and illness.
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Grant Hill, Tamia Hill, thank you both so much for being with us.
TAMIA HILL R&B SINGER: Thank you for having us.
GRANT HILL, FORMER NBA BASKETBALL PLAYER: Yes. Thanks for having us.
MARTIN: Thank you for coming. Two long careers and both of you in separate fields where often careers are very short, even successful careers
are very short, and a long marriage which is difficult for a lot of people who aren`t celebrities.
So we`re just hoping that we can learn some things about how to achieve that kind of longevity. I`m looking at all of that and I`m thinking that
the theme for me looking at it from the outside is longevity, longevity professionally, longevity sort of personally. Does it feel that way to
you?
HILL: I guess there is a longevity element to it. And I think when you have a goal, you have a vision for what you want, and that`s a collective
goal, and you`re willing to sort of saw wood and work at it every day and adapt and adjust, and then, you know, you kind of lookup for air and you
realize, wow, it`s been almost 20 years.
And so I think we`re fortunate in that regard but, you know, I think we also can combine that with a level of sort of normalcy in our lives. We
enjoy the simple things I think in life, in a relationship, in a family, and our children. Our children`s lives consume us.
And so we don`t sort of live this sort of -- I don`t know. I don`t feel like we live in this sort of superstar, of celebrity, fantasy lifestyle. I
mean we certainly are fortunate and we are able to do certain things and live a certain way but I do feel like we have a lot of normalcy and a lot
of balance in our life which is probably --
HILL: We seek balance.
HILL: Yes. No, we seek -- yes.
HILL: The goal is to try to maintain balance.
HILL: Exactly.
MARTIN: Tamia, what about you. What do you -- when you look at all that you`ve accomplished individually and together, like does something stand
out for you as a theme?
HILL: The first thing that stands out is that time flies, that, you know when you start putting numbers on things like a certain song, so gee, 19
years ago, you know, Grant and I being married, almost celebrating 20 years. We have a 16-year-old, an 11-year-old, you just really realize how
time flies.
MARTIN: You both struggle through health challenges so which I think is something important. I think a lot of people know.
I mean you started having ankle injuries. They were so severe that you missed an entire season in Orlando fighting through that. And in fact, if
I remember correctly, there were doctors telling you that you weren`t going to play again.
HILL: Yes. And I mean this, you know, an entire year you miss a good portion of four years. You know, had a really nasty situation, staph
infection. My body was (INAUDIBLE).
I almost died. I mean it was a really bad situation and it`s also tough years. And, you know, and for me right sort of at that point
professionally where you`re supposed to be in your prime years.
And so it was tough mentally, physically, emotionally. That kind of stress and that kind of strain with a young married couple could put a lot of --
you know, could either, you know, bring you together or, you know, bring you up or take you apart. And so I think, you know, we just got close.
MARTIN: Do you agree?
HILL: I agree actually. I think that -- the same for me. You know, I was going along with my career and seeing -- you know, I was having a few
little symptoms and kind of we were talking about it and initially getting the diagnosis of M.S. And then --
MARTIN: For people who don`t know, you were diagnosed --
HILL: Yes.
MARTIN: -- with multiple sclerosis years ago.
HILL: Yes.
MARTIN: And you`re actually quite public about it.
HILL: I was, yes. Yes.
MARTIN: Why though? I`m curious about that.
HILL: You know I didn`t even think about it. I didn`t even think about it. But, you know, it`s something that I am super grateful for today
because I get so many people who have never told anyone that they have M.S. and they say it to me.
The first person in 2018, they still feel sort of a stigma attached with, you know, having some -- you know, having a disease like M.S. So, you
know, but I think for us dealing with something like, you know, medical issues early on, we stood by each other and we had a little one a little
bit after that.
And we were in -- we were just in go mode. We were in protective mode. [13:45:00] That`s how we, you know, we`ve been dealing with issues that
we`ve had.
MARTIN: Were you scared?
HILL: Both certainly very scared. We didn`t -- I mean I didn`t know what was going to happen.
HILL: Once we found out and learned a little bit about it, and then you learn that there are actually people who have it and have normal lives or
deal with it and you surprise a lot of people do have it.
HILL: Yes.
HILL: And so I just thought of like Richard Pryor. I mean I thought just -- that was the only example that I knew of, you know. In a weird kind of
way as an athlete, you`re kind of conditioned to think we`re always going win because everyone thought I was done. But you always feel like you have
a chance.
HILL: You felt the same way with your ankle.
HILL: Oh, no question.
HILL: Regardless of what people said, when they were trying to figure out what was going on, he always felt like --
HILL: Oh, no. And I kept saying I`m going to -- I kept saying I`m going to get through this and I`m going to make up for on the back and I`m going
to play until I`m 40. And you know what happened? When I got to 40, my body shut down. I should have said 45.
MARTIN: Was that hard for you, you know, to watch him go through that?
HILL: Yes and no. No, because I knew this is something that he wanted, that he was fighting for, and that he had fought for to get back on the
court, and he did it. He was actually back on the court playing at a high level which was something that no one knew that you know, that would
happen.
Yes, that I just saw how hard it was to maintain that level of success on the court, what he put his body through to maintain that level, you know.
That kind of was hard to watch.
MARTIN: You`re now working on, about to promote your seventh album on tour.
HILL: Right.
MARTIN: Now, about to go on tour. Is it hard for you watching her?
HILL: The tour, it can be stressful but she`s not going to push herself too far. Like that`s just who she is.
HILL: I think controlling my own calendar like deciding that I was going to put out albums on my own label and controlling my own calendar. So
being able to say yes to things and no to things and yes, I want to try -- I want to tour but this is how I want to do it. That was huge.
HILL: But with Tamia though, I`ll say this, that with M.S., it`s not something you visibly see. And, you know, I have scars on my ankle, a
limp, you know. She sees me, you know, physically dealing with whatever I`m dealing with. And so it hurts more how she feels. And so unless she
shares that, then you don`t know.
And so sometimes, you know -- I`m ashamed to say this but sometimes you even forget because things seem normal. You know, she`s active. She`s
engaged. She`s playing tennis. She`s working out. She`s just continued on.
So knowing all of that and being there sort of watching from, you know, from the sidelines, you know, it`s impressive.
HILL: This is the supportive thing that we`re talking about. Like just knowing that you have a partner that supports you and, you know, and sort
of your growth, you know.
MARTIN: I want to talk about politics. We`re in a moment in which athletes, as well as artists, are expected to speak about things. They are
expected to talk about the issues of the moment.
And Grant, you were not known for being particularly political when you were playing. And I wonder if there`s any part of you that regrets that or
how do you feel about that now?
HILL: Well, you know, for me, growing up in D.C., more than the redskins or the bullets or the capitals, I always felt like politics was the main
sport. And the topic of conversation in our house at dinner was always about what was happening, local politics, national politics.
And so when you think of players and athletes and celebrities today versus maybe back in the `90s when, you know, I was more in my heyday, I think
they do speak out more. And I think there are a couple reasons for that. I think, first of all, technology.
MARTIN: Yes.
HILL: You know, now you have more access to information. And so, you know, I lived in Detroit and you only really heard which you -- or only
knew what you heard or read, either in the Detroit News or on T.V. local television. But now, you have the ability to see or read or find out or
investigate things that are happening all over the country.
And then I think social media. I think social media also allows that and allows for you to exchange and share and really get a sense of what`s
happening. And I think this generation of young athlete and just generation, period, they`ve come of age with that.
MARTIN: Well, how do you feel about? I mean you actually have a foot in both worlds. I mean as a former player yourself and now you`re a part
owner --
HILL: Right.
MARTIN: -- of the Atlanta Hawks.
HILL: Atlanta Hawks.
MARTIN: So you have a foot on both -- in both worlds. How do you feel about their outspokenness?
HILL: I love it. I love it. I mean and I love that my partners with the Hawks love it and appreciate it as well.
MARTIN: Do you wish you had been more spoken about politics or about issues when you were playing and you had -- you still have a platform but
you had that platform?
HILL: Yes. [13:50:00] I mean yes and no. I just -- it was weird like there wasn`t a lot -- like it was just a different time. And so the --
HILL: But you have a platform too. Like now with social media, there`s a direct line of communication.
HILL: You can talk directly to your audience. You know, obviously there`s a lot to put out these days unfortunately but now if something happens,
bam, I can post something on Instagram --
HILL: Your own words.
HILL: -- on Twitter and I can talk directly to an audience. I can talk to, you know, a couple hundred thousand people and express how I feel. We
didn`t necessarily have that luxury back in the `90s.
I`m proud of today`s athletes and those who choose to seek out or stand up and speak out. You don`t necessarily -- you`re not obligated to do it.
But if you`re going to do it, make sure you`re informed.
MARTIN: So Tamia, you all came up and were able to develop your relationship in relative privacy. I mean you`re both public figures but
you didn`t have the glare of social media. Now you`re raising two girls. What are you talking to them about? How are you teaching them to navigate
this?
HILL: It`s an everyday sort of conversation. You know we kind of -- and social media is sort of evolving as well too, you know. There was Twitter,
and now Instagram, and Snapchat. I mean these things are, as a parent to try and keep track of all these new sort of apps and ways that they`re
communicating with people.
I mean when I was younger and someone would call, my mom would pretty much know all of my friends because she`d answer on the phone. "Who are you?
How do you know Tamia? What`s going on?" I mean now your kids can have conversations with people that you don`t know.
And so we`re just trying to teach them awareness, you know, self-awareness on social media but also teach them that they are loved at home.
MARTIN: Do they know you`re famous?
HILL: Our kids don`t know -- they think we`re there show for pretty much. (CROSSTALK) That`s pretty much it. And then they`re like, "Yes, I guess
she sings. I don`t know. I guess he played basketball but he doesn`t know what he`s doing right now." Like it`s -- our kids are very humbling.
HILL: It`s all about them.
HILL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
MARTIN: You also have an amazing art collection I`m told.
HILL: We`ve been fortunate to be able to collect and support some amazing artists. And, you know, it`s a genre of art. You know, African-American
art has historically been underappreciated like most forms of art if you look, you know, if you look in our sort of history.
But yes, I mean I think, you know, my wife`s an artist. I appreciate beauty and artistic expression and we`ve just been fortunate through the
years to be able to acquire good pieces and museum quality works, share it with the public. I think the purpose of sharing it was to expose young
people, young people of color, but really all people to amazing art by people of color.
And so we had a tour. We went to eight different cities. We had it in very well- established museums. The feedback was extremely positive.
We made sure that inner-city kids had a chance to field trip and visit the museum. And in some cases, the first time these kids ever went to a
museum. So hopefully that experience can enrich their lives but also the platform, the celebrity that we bring and that`s attached to it will
hopefully introduce people to some amazing art by, you know, African- American artists.
MARTIN: So when people think of the two of you, what do you want them to think about?
HILL: I mean I leave that to you.
HILL: You know, people ask about marriage and how do you do it. And, you know, the other day, we were leaving from an event and we looked at each
other like we`re just taking it one day at a time. There`s like zero formula.
We have no idea what we`re doing. We`re just doing it together. Like when you have a baby and you`re taking the baby home from the hospital and
you`re like, OK, so now what?
It`s like you`re just taking it day by day and you`re trying to do your best. And that`s kind of how we are, you know, looking at being together.
But also, I think with my career and probably with yours as well, we`re just trying to do our best.
I`m trying to put my best foot forward. I`m trying to make sure that whatever I do, I`m doing it with passion and that I`m proud of the work
that I leave behind.
MARTIN: Tamia Hill, Grant Hill, thank you both so much for talking with us.
HILL: Thank you.
HILL: Oh, thank you.
AMANPOUR: It`s something we can all aspire to especially in a new year, being our best selves.
That is it from us for now. Thanks for watching this special edition of Amanpour.
And remember, you can always listen to our podcast and see us online at amanpour.com. And you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Goodbye from London.
END
