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Amanpour
Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Catholic Church; Rooting Out the Scourge In Catholic Churches; Interview with Archbishop of Chicago, Cardinal Blase Cupich; Changing the Vatican from the Outside, Interview with Former Member, Vatican Commission for Protection of Minors, Marie Collins; One Day at a Time. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired February 21, 2019 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Pope Francis summons his cardinals to finally get to grips with the church sex abuse crisis. His close ally, the archbishop of Chicago, tells me what
they hope to achieve. And as new allegations of priest abuse against Catholic nuns surfaced, I'll speak with a former insider about how to bring
lasting change.
Plus, remaking a classic sitcom for modern times. Our Alicia Menendez speaks with the producer behind "One Day at a Time."
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Now, condemnation is no longer enough. Pope Francis opened an unprecedented summit at the Vatican today by telling Catholic leaders that
the faithful expect concrete action to finally address the sexual abuse crisis that has become nearly synonymous with their church.
Among his goals he said, are how to establish specific protocols for handling accusations against bishops. Behind closed doors, the pontiff
heard testimony from survivors of abuse.
Now, in America alone, one advocacy group estimates that more than 6,700 American priests have abused tens of thousands of children, and the U.S.
Catholic Church has reportedly paid out approximately $3.8 billion in settlements since the 1980s.
Just last week, the church defrocked Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington after a church trial found him guilty of abusing minors. He's
the highest-ranking person to be expelled from the priesthood over this abuse. But the crisis is worldwide and with particular worry and scrutiny
now on the church in developing countries.
Cardinal Luis Tagle of the Philippines issued this anguished plea to his fellow clergyman as the conference got underway.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIS TAGLE, CARDINAL, ARCHBISHOP OF MANILA: The wounds of the recent crisis carry the memory of illicit suffering. But they also carry but
memory of our weakness and sinfulness. If we want to be agents of healing, let us not reject any pendency that is part of worldly thinking that
refuses to see and touch the wounds of others, which are Christ's wounds in the wounded people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Another cardinal, Blase Cupich, is the archbishop of Chicago and he's a close ally of Pope Francis. As he was on his way to attend the
summit of the Vatican, he assured me that the pope is determined to root out this scourge but he also says the pontiff is managing expectations.
Here's our conversation.
Cardinal Cupich, welcome to the program.
BLASE CUPICH, CARDINAL, ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So, let's start by talking about this committee. You are amongst the organizers of this committee, which is designed, again, to
raise awareness and take some action on the ongoing issue of cover ups and historical sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.
Before I ask you about the intent, I just want to say Pope Francis seems to be trying to downplay expectations, saying that it's more of a "Sunday
school for the bishops to teach them about the problem of child sex abuse." He said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): We have to deflate expectations to these points that I've made because the problem of abuse will continue. It
is a human problem, a human problem that is everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Comment on that, first of all, of what he says.
CUPICH: Yes. The Holy Father in remarking, making those remarks, wanted to make sure that the proper focus is on the two objectives that he has set
forward, namely to build that kind of awareness so that the bishops throughout the world claim ownership for this issue. And secondly, that
we've put together a framework that will make clear to them what are the concrete steps for keeping children safe, for handling abuse cases, but
also, that they fully understand how they're going to be held accountable.
Those are significant outcomes that we are anticipating with this meeting that's going to take going place. But he's right, to think that there will
not be any more abuse of children in the church is unrealistic, we do our best. We know that it is a social problem throughout the world but this is
a significant step forward for us.
AMANPOUR: I just wonder if you could comment on the fact that even now in 2019, you're talking about an awareness raising committee. I mean, for
some that might seem just quaint, how much more awareness can they be? This has been a drip, drip, drip and a flood and the tsunami of allegations
of wrongdoing, of corruption in the church. And any other major corporation or company or organization would have been destroyed by this,
would no longer be standing by this and yet, I'm sorry, but the Catholic Church keeps going, talking about raising awareness.
CUPICH: Well, I think that raising awareness is globally now. We surely have raised awareness in the United States and in the Western world. But
we also know that that awareness is not heightened in other countries throughout the world and he wants to make sure that it is.
And when, in fact, we put in measures to protect children, when we make sure that we cooperate with a law enforcement, the incidences of child
abuse drop dramatically and have since 2002 in the United States when we adopted the charter for the protection of children and young people.
For instance, in the United States, over the last five years, we have had on average five cases of abuse by clergy in the Catholic Church of 70
million people, that is a dramatic drop since the height of the late 60s and 70s. So, we know that when we address this in a very forthright way,
with protocols and understanding for accountability, we can make a significant improvement.
One of use case is too many. But when, in fact, you attack this head on, you can make a significant improvement.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, I want to ask you about this explosive letter, as you remember, a few -- many months ago, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, who is
former Vatican ambassador to the United States, he actually accused Pope Francis himself of covering up sexual misconduct by the former archbishop
of Washington, Theodore McCarrick, and we know that McCarrick is right now in the process of being defrocked. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but
this is what seems to be going on right now.
Do you believe that the pope played a part in covering up McCarrick's sexual misconduct?
CUPICH: I have no information about that. In fact, I do know that the prefect for the Congregation of Bishops did offer a reply on that
particular point. I don't have it in front of me now, but I would refer you to that. And I know that the Holy Father is always looking for ways in
which he is transparent and he's going to move forward.
And whenever he's made a mistake, he's owned it. We see that time and again in his pontificated, he's a man who honestly wants to deal with
issues before him. And in this instance of abuse cases, whenever he got it wrong, he said he got it wrong and he's willing to learn.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, of course, we're talking about abuse, which mostly is now historical abuse, what's really a problem in the Catholic Church is the
crime of covering up these crimes. And the question is, does the Pope, does the hierarchy, have a plan to punish those who cover up?
And I guess what I'm asking you now -- you've just said the pope will, you know, own any mistakes. But the U.S. Conference of Bishops, your people,
went to Rome in November and asked for an investigation into what was known about McCarrick's case and the pope refused that investigation. Why do you
think the pope would refuse even an investigation into McCarrick and the cover up around McCarrick?
CUPICH: Well, I would say that that's not accurate.
AMANPOUR: OK.
CUPICH: There was a declaration by the Holy See that they were going to go through all of their files and do an investigation. There was an initial
response by the prefect for the Congregation for Bishops, Cardinal Ouellet. And so, it's my understanding is that the Holy See has committed to that
kind of investigation.
So, I believe that that's ongoing, just to -- as a matter of record, to correct.
AMANPOUR: OK. But there still is no Vatican investigation into this, right?
CUPICH: Yes. Cardinal Ouellet is part of the Vatican. He's one of the officers. And he did respond with regard to the files that they had
present in their office. But the Holy See did, the Vatican did put out a declaration that they were going to do this investigation.
AMANPOUR: We know that you now have policies in place, that the church has policies in place for abuses but not yet, at least, we don't know whether
you have and what they are, any the policies in place for the ongoing cover up of the abusers and the complicated mechanism that involves so many of
the hierarchy in the church to cover up, to move around, to play, you know, board games with abusive priests and others. What are the mechanisms to
punish them?
CUPICH: Again, Christiane, let me right. The pope issued a document called like a loving mother, it was an apostolic letter, in which he
outlined that if a bishop mishandled cases, even if in fact he did so in a way that was just objectively wrong without their culpability that's there,
that he will be held accountable for this and be dismissed. And that has been, and in fact, already employed in cases where bishops have mishandled
cases and he's very resolute about that.
At the meeting that we're going to have, we're going to be very clear about how bishops will be held accountable and how complaints can be made against
bishops if they mishandle cases or in some way allow abused to continue.
But already, the pope has issued a document that has set that procedure and the measures in place. We need now to be clear, in each country, on how
the procedures are for reporting bishops and then the process for investigating that and making that known to the people of God. That has
already been -- that is already a direction that we've started.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, could I ask you to turn your attention now to this horrendous story of the abuse of nuns.
The pope himself has admitted that clerics have sexually abused nuns, raped nuns, kept them as sex slaves and even forced to abort priests' children.
Some of these cases date back to the mid-90s. This is what the pope said just this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: I think it is still taking place because it's not as though the moment you become aware of something it goes away. The thing continues
and we've been working on this for some time. I can't say this doesn't happen in my house. It's true. Should something more be done? Yes. Do
we have the will? Yes. But it's a part that we've been on for some time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, what can you say about this? I mean, it fits a pattern of the ongoing society wide abuse of women in a patriarchal world
and there is practically almost nothing more patriarchal than the Catholic church. How can nuns who come to do good feel protected and safe in a
Catholic church run entirely by men with no women in the hierarchy and with no voice?
CUPICH: Well, this crime against religious consecrated women should be condemned by everyone and we should do everything possible to make sure
that it's stopped. This is a horrendous crime. And the Holy Father is right about talking about it because the more you get this out in the open,
the chances are of having it ceased increased greatly.
So, I'm glad that he talked about this rather than saying nothing about it at all. And he is resolute in making sure that this takes place. But this
is also tied to the abuse of children and abuse of minors, and that is a clerical mentality, a clericalist mentality, where people think that
because they're in a position of power or privilege or protection that they can get away with this kind of thing. That has to end.
And the Holy Father is right in putting this within the context of a clericalist culture that has to stop. And that is part of the cure that
needs to take place as we address all of these problems.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, I'm really happy to hear you say that. But I wonder what you mean by clericalist culture that has to stop. It is the
foundation of the Roman Catholic Church, the clericalist culture, men are in positions of power and they will they have power over everybody, the
kids, the women, everybody.
So, I just wonder whether, once and for all, the Catholic Church can enter the real world and understand that when women are put in positions of
authority and with more equity and parity, these things will stop, Cardinal, they will stop.
CUPICH: You're exactly right. The focus talked about the church being an inverted pyramid. Instead of having the pope, bishops, cardinals at the
top all the way down to the people, it has to be turned upside down. So, that when you have a church that, first of all, takes into consideration
the wellbeing of everyone, those who are in positions of authority see themselves as servants, and that is the direction the Holy Father is moving
towards and which why he calls for a cynical (ph) church.
When I talk about clericalism, I'm talking about the abuse of power, not the exercise of authority, there's a big difference between those two. We
know that people in society have roles and authority and responsibilities. But when that authority is abused for their own sake, for their own
privilege and is protected, that is the culture of clericalism in the church that has to be rooted out.
And you're exactly right, the more that we integrate the voice of lay men and women and all the people in decision making, in consultation, we're
going -- that's where the change will take place. I'm a firm believer of that and I know so is Pope Francis.
AMANPOUR: I mean, you say lay men and women, I hear you sort of, you know, pivoting away from the idea of actual religious women gaining more power in
the church.
CUPICH: Oh, no. I meant to say that instead of clergy. Because religious women are still part of the laity as well, in the understanding.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. No. I guess, I meant, clergy. I just wonder whether this is a perfect opportunity for the church to get with the picture, so to
speak, and understand that, of course, clericalism is about abuse of power but you will always have the abuse of power if you don't have parity and
equality and gender representation in -- just like in any other walk of life.
CUPICH: You're exactly right and that's why in the 20 years that I've been a bishop, I've always made sure that we have that kind of diversity at my
administration. I depend every day on lay men and women, religious women, and others to help me make decisions and bring about the proper ordering of
the church in this archdiocese.
The Holy Father now is introducing as well lay men and women and religious in the various offices, making them -- putting them in places of authority.
We need to do a better job of that, we're better off when we do it. We lose something of the wisdom of the laity of religious women when we
exclude them in -- not only in consultation but also in positions of authority and decision making.
AMANPOUR: Time for female priests?
CUPICH: Yes. I think that the issue of authority needs to be understood as not being the sole preserve those who ordained. And that is, I think,
the distinction we have to make. We should not collapse all authority around those who are ordained and treat those two questions separately.
AMANPOUR: It's really interesting to hear what you're saying. I want to ask you whether you -- how do you analyze what seems to be a little bit of
an existential struggle within the church hierarchy led by the pope who is on the reform path in many, many aspects, as we've been talking, and other
aspects as well, and those who is still entrenched in the traditional hierarchical highly, let me just say, fundamentalist interpretation of the
church?
CUPICH: We do have to walk together and listen to each other. That's part of the discernment as we look at where the Lord is calling us in the
future. When we take our time and have a deep listening for -- to each other, we will get it right.
People on both sides have things to offer. The Holy Father's role is to make sure that church unity is preserved. And that is why, I think, it's
important for him to raise important questions, as he's doing. And at the same time, keep an open ear as people who approach things differently share
their views. And I think that's the pathway the Holy Father is outlining for us.
It's a lot harder than just having a dictatorial edict from the person who's in charge like the pope and saying, "This is what's going to happen."
But when you -- in fact, you do an approach that has people walking together, you're going to create a better outcome and you're going to
preserve the unity of the church.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal Blase Cupich, thank you so much for joining us.
CUPICH: I am honored to be with you. Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: And the cardinal is now attending that conference at the Vatican. But creating that common path forward won't be easy. As you just
heard in our conversation, just this month, Pope Francis admitted for the very first time that the church has been plagued not just by the abuse of
children but also the abuse of nuns. He said some cases have amounted to "sexual slavery," those are the pope's words.
Correspondent Melissa Bell has been looking into some of those cases in France. Here's her report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUCIE, ALLEGED SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIM: And it was like automatic, you know, he wanted to go to the end, to ejaculation and I was just like an object
for him. And I have the feeling he did this a lot of time.
MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lucie, not her real name, says she was abused by a priest, so do Liene Moreau and Laurence Poujade.
None of their alleged abusers have ever faced trial. This is the story of the broken women of St John.
The order of the Contemplative Sisters of St John was founded here at St. Jodard by Father Marie-Dominique Philippe who preached for the physical
expression of affection.
It was long after his death that the order recognized that he'd been guilty of sexual abuse. But for years, there were rumors about other priests and
other victims within the order.
Lucie was 18 years old and preparing to become an oblate, a lay person consecrated within the church when she says the abuse began.
LUCIE: You can be 18 or 16 or 21. When you have not experienced sexuality and you have suddenly in front of you the sex of men, it's just shock.
BELL: It took Lucie 15 years to be able to talk about it. She then says the church wouldn't listen. In the criminal courts, the statute of
limitations had expired. The Vatican now says it is investigating allegations made by several women against Lucie's alleged abuser. He was
removed from the community 10 years ago but even now, it is the strength of her faith that makes it in.
LUCIE: He is a priest, he's a father he says, he's near God, he's like God. He's -- the Christ is living in him. He cannot do something like
this. I think the worst was to talk, it broke me. It broke my body, in fact.
I prefer to have been shot by a gun or if I have just a leg handicap, it's OK, I can live my life. But here, it's a murder inside of your heart and
in -- of your souls because it's about faith also. So, it's like something is dead in me.
BELL: Liene was a new novice when she was abused. The Order of St. John says that her alleged abuser, Father Mario Livie (ph) is now being
investigated by the Vatican. He declined our request for comment. Liene only began to put a word on what had happened to her two years ago and by
then, it was too late to take to the criminal courts.
LIENE MOREAU, ALLEGED SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIM (through translator): The psychological abuse was worse than the sexual abuse, it's my inner life.
He took my dignity, my femininity and all that I was.
BELL: Liene says the abuse went on for 15 years. In the letters she shows, Father Mario Livie (ph) suggests discretion, adding that he's crazy
love for her comes from Jesus.
CNN reached out to the Vatican, its spokesman wouldn't comment on any specific allegations but did confirm that several clerics belonging to the
congregation of St John were being investigated.
Laurence is a former nun who now heads a victim's organization.
LAURENCE POUJADE, SENTINELLE VICTIMS GROUP: We are talking about victims who don't speak out. But what about those who went straight to psychiatric
hospitals, what about those who mutilated themselves?
I know one case, her parents called me to tell me that she had cut her own tongue. What can you say what happened for a victim to do that?
BELL: Not all of the abuse took place here. But the order says that over the course of the last 45 years, five priests have been found guilty of
sexual abuse in civil courts with three under investigation. Furthermore, two priests have been found guilty of abuse in church courts.
French authorities wouldn't comment but the Order of St John gave CNN a statement saying that it accepted that errors had been made in the past in
the handling of cases of sexual abuse because of a lack of awareness, of the suffering caused to the women.
We did just try and ring the bell here at the Order of St. John but no one would speak to us on camera. What matters though now is that the Order has
recognized that there are victims other than those of the founder. Now, that had knowledge and came just after Pope Francis had lifted the lid on
what he called sexual slavery within the Order of St. John.
So, what did the pope's words mean for the victims?
LUCIE: Well, it was like a bomb.
MOREAU (through translator): It's a new beginning.
BELL: The pontiff's recognition may come late but it does put words on a trauma that for so many had until now been unspeakable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And those are really tough unspeakable testimonials there. My next guest has devoted her life to trying to change this culture of abuse
in the church.
Marie Collins is, herself, a survivor. She was abused by a priest as a teenager, growing up in Ireland. In 2014, she was handpicked by Pope
Francis to sit on a committee dedicated to the issue. But when faced with resistance to her recommendations from within the Vatican, three years
later Mari quit. And now, she advocates for change from the outside. And she's joining me from Dublin.
Marie Collins, welcome to the program.
MARIE COLLINS, FORMER MEMBER, VATICAN COMMISSION FOR PROTECTION OF MINORS: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You have just listened to our report on the abuse of nuns within the Order of St John in France, you've heard the pope has acknowledged that
this went on, you heard Cardinal Cupich talk about the importance and good intentions of the pope in calling this conference.
I wonder just your commentary on what you expect to come out of this conference after these, you know, gathering of cardinals and bishops.
COLLINS: Well, I think, as you said earlier, the pope has been playing down expectations for this meeting. But that's not enough. We've had a
lot of talk about what needs to be done, what should be done. Cardinal Cupich there said, "This is what should happen." And we actually need to
see now is something you put into action, concrete things being put in place.
My expectation is that is not what we would see coming out of this meeting. What we will see is a lot of resolve will be told of the bishops from
around the world now gather that they understand that abuse is a serious problem and they must look at it. But what we won't see is a timeline for
action.
As Cardinal Cupich there said, in countries where really strong safeguarding policies have been put in place. In America, really strong,
very clear safeguarding policy has been put in place. And as he said, abuse has dropped dramatically. It has worked. Why has the church, seeing
that, not put it in every other country?
AMANPOUR: Well, why do you think that is then, Marie Collins? Why not if it does actually work?
COLLINS: There is so much resistance, particularly the attitude that every country and the bishops in every country have to have authority and power
over their own area. Subsidiarity is what they call it. The pope particularly does not like making rules from the top. He likes to see
things being done by the bishops in their own countries, but that doesn't work. You can't just leave it up to the will of the individual, it has to
be something that comes from the experience of the entire church.
And I know earlier you said like the abuse, child abuse, was mostly in the church now historically. But sadly, that only applies in countries like
America, Ireland, Australia, where we've had these huge upheavals. In many other countries around the world, children are being abused by members of
the church this very minute, and nothing is being done to stop it. And that is what is frustrating for somebody like myself who have been
campaigning for 20 years.
AMANPOUR: So, that they say that this conference is to address precisely that, to address the countries where it's still going on and that have not
made -- you know, where the church hasn't made the corrections that you've talked about like in America, Australia and in Ireland.
Can I just ask you specifically on the abuse of nuns? I mean, this is a fairly new revelation. It's obviously been happening for a long time but
this is the first time it's getting so much publicity, and I wonder whether you think, just like in Boston, when the first abuse cases started to
surface publicly, whether this is the tip of the iceberg and are we going to suddenly find out that in parts of the developing world, you know,
Europe, India, Africa else -- et cetera, that suddenly there's going to be a lot more women coming out with these tales of abuse?
COLLINS: It's exactly the same as the child abuse problem. I mean, it's not that the -- it might be news to us about the nuns, it's not new to the
Vatican. There was a religious sister nun who had been working in Africa. 25 years ago, she sent a report to the Vatican about nuns being raped and
abused by priests in Africa, and nothing was done about it. So, they've known about it. It's only when it becomes public that they start to give
it any attention.
I think what is going to happen with the abuse of nuns and the abuse of young seminarians, this is going to explode in the same way as the child
abuse did, when the actual victims feel that they can come forward and speak out. And the church in the past has only confronted the abuse of
children in the countries where it has become a public scandal, where the media and the people become angry and the victims have been heard, America,
Australia, country like my own, Ireland.
[13:30:08] They seem to wait. They're not proactive. They're reactive. They do something when they have to, not when they should.
And I think this is the problem. There are solutions that could be put into place immediately and they're not doing them. They're promising them
but they're not doing them. And I think Catholics are becoming very, very tired of the words, the promises, meetings like this where it's appealing
to these bishops, better natures if you like to actually grasp this and promise to do something about it.
AMANPOUR: So --
COLLINS: I think in the church, we're at the stage where they have to be made to do something about it.
AMANPOUR: Right. We see. That's really interesting. It goes against -- and you've described it. It can't be sort of a bottom-up issue. It has to
be a top-down issue from the pope and from the hierarchy.
But before I continue with what could be done and why it's not being done, could I just ask you, if you don't mind, to explain what happened to you as
a very young teenager when you were abused. I mean how did that even happen?
COLLINS: Well, I was a very devout Catholic. I was an Irish Catholic. I was sick. I had a disease of osteomyelitis on my arm. I had to go into
hospital for an operation.
And I went into a children's hospital because I was 12, just on the borderline of turning 13. And I was very innocent, the innocence of a sort
of a 6-year-old now because I was a child of the '50s. I went into the hospital. I was there for three weeks.
The Catholic chaplain, he befriended me, he made me his special friend. I felt very lucky that he was taking me out as a really special friend. And
to me, he was such an important figure. But I had a room of my own and he began to come around in the evenings and then the friendliness turned into
abuse and sexual abuse and sexual interference.
I didn't know what he was doing. I didn't know -- I knew it was wrong. It felt awful. He took intimate photographs. And all the time, I felt
confused. I didn't know what he was doing. I didn't know why he was doing it but I knew I didn't want it to happen.
And when I said to him don't do this, it's wrong whatever you're doing, I don't want you to do it, he kept telling me, "I'm a priest. You know I
can't do something wrong. You know I can't." "There's something wrong with you," he said, "if you think what I'm doing is wrong."
So it is a child's way of thinking I thought he is a priest. He is a man that can't do something wrong so there's definitely something wrong with
me. I'm a bad person.
AMANPOUR: How did --
COLLINS: That feeling of being a bad person lasted with me for many, many years.
AMANPOUR: And how did you emerge from that feeling because then you did -- many years later, you joined the pope's commission and you were hoping that
you could I guess use your own experience for your own commitment to stopping this kind of abuse. How did that come about?
COLLINS: Well, for 20 years, I suffered the effects of the abuse, panic attacks, anxieties, hospitalizations with depression. It destroyed many
years of my life. And then eventually, I reported it because the first cases here in Ireland were in the '90s and I reported my abuser in 1995.
And the police started to investigate but I went to my diocese and the archbishop he refused to cooperate with the police. He protected my
abuser. He protected him totally. And the police investigated and my abuser was jailed.
But what happened at the time was that I saw that the diocese and the archbishop going out and telling the people that the church were doing
everything as they should in these cases. Well, I knew behind closed doors, they were doing nothing of the sort.
And that pushed me to speak out. I thought people needed to know that what the church was saying and what the church was doing were two different
things. I got a lot of therapy for my abuse and thankfully have been very well since then and my life changed.
But I went on then to try and get the church to understand the damage abuse does to a child, the damage it does to the rest of your life. And that by
protecting these men, they were complicit in that.
And I joined with my own diocese then, a different archbishop came in. I helped set up their [13:35:00] child protection office. I worked on
safeguarding guidelines with the Irish Church, then I spoke in Rome in 2012 about the symposium. And from that, I was invited to join the pope's
commission on the protection of minors which was to advise him on what changes were needed. And that, I joined that in 2014.
AMANPOUR: Right. Well, it's interesting to hear that just as you didn't get hurt in the church in your case, the police did take care of it. You
then resign from this commission because you say that the Vatican, the people in charge of dealing with the information you were putting out there
weren't listening either, that you could give all the reports on abuse that you liked but it wasn't being dealt with.
COLLINS: Yes. During those three years, I worked with really excellent colleagues, experts in every area of this issue. And we drew up
recommendations for Pope Francis to hold people in leadership accountable, to bring in better safeguarding universally.
He approved these recommendations and he gave them to his curia to implement them. And that's where they stopped. They disappeared into the
sand.
So after three years of seeing recommendations being made, being approved, and then being discarded, I felt there was no point in remaining. And I
think the pope could start right now to clear the Vatican out of all those men who are so resistant to change and who still live in that old
mentality.
A lot of them think that abuse is simply a moral lapse. It's a sin and we should forgive these men and put them back. So getting those men at the
very top and if they're not going to protect children or they don't think they need to, remove them first off straight away from the Vatican itself.
AMANPOUR: Marie Collins, I wonder what you've made of other recent stories that have come out. There's a big report about how a whole group inside
the Vatican is trying to scapegoat homosexuals. And we have a little bit of a sound bite by Barbara Doris. She's an abuse survivor, former
executive director of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, SNAP. This is what she said about the current attempt to explain away this
systematic abuse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA DORRIS, ABUSE SURVIVOR, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SNAP: Church officials have framed this as a homosexual issue for a couple of reasons.
It takes away from the real focus of the problem which is criminal sexual assault. And it acts as a smokescreen, people now are discussing
homosexuality rather than the crimes themselves. And homosexual issues automatically remove the women from the discussion and magically, half the
victims have been made to disappear.
AMANPOUR: I wonder what you make of what she said. And I guess as part of that question, you sort of described a situation where the pope wants to do
the right thing but he seems to be hampered by those underneath who form, for want of a better word, the deep state, the deep Vatican state who are
against his reforms.
COLLINS: Yes. There are pro and anti-Francis factions as we know. And the Vatican is the most political place in the world. It's all about
careerism and infighting. And it's -- that completely undermines any sort of efficiency. It's very dysfunctional.
On the homosexual issue -- and I think there's a lot of very Conservative right-wing Catholics who have an agenda really to say that abuse is all
down to gay priests. It's all down to homosexuality. If we homosexuality out of the church, we'd eradicate abuse.
I agree with Barbara Dorris. This is complete misdirection, complete. It's as simple as saying that someone like me, I was abused by a pedophile,
a heterosexual, get rid of all heterosexuals and you have no abuse in the church.
It's a very complex subject. There's pedophiles and they are in -- they abuse children, male and female, prepubescent. Then you have hebephobes.
They abuse young -- postpubescents best.
You do have -- you have heterosexual perpetrators and you have homosexual perpetrators. It's nothing to do with their orientation. It's the fact
that they are abusers, that they are people who will take advantage of the vulnerable, either a vulnerable child or the vulnerable young adult.
AMANPOUR: OK.
COLLINS: And trying to put it all into the context of homosexuality, it's just people trying to follow an agenda which [13:40:00] really does not do
anything to forward the issue of protecting children.
AMANPOUR: Marie Collins, thank you so much for joining us. And we do hope to be able to report on real change and a new agenda and accountability in
light of all these heartbreaking testimony as we've just heard.
Now though, we're taking a very different turn and we're going to focus on culture with a T.V. series that's brimming with a much-needed wall. The
critically acclaimed "One Day at a Time", a remake of Norman Lear's '70s sitcom but with a Latin twist.
It follows a family going through their lives, well, one day at a time. And it stars Latin legends like the Oscar-winning star of West Side Story
Rita Moreno. The brains behind the show producer, Gloria Calderon Kellett, tells our Alicia Menendez how she got her show off the ground.
ALICIA MENENDEZ, CONTRIBUTOR: A few years ago, Norman Lear, legendary producer of shows like All in the Family, Sanford and Sons, The Jeffersons,
gives you a call and says, "I want to reboot my show with a Latino family, One Day at a Time." Do you think it was a good idea?
GLORIA CALDERON KELLETT, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, ONE DAY AT A TIME: I did not think it was a good idea at first. I mean look, I thought it was a good
idea in theory.
And to be clear, Norman didn't call me, his people, because he doesn't have to call me. If somebody says Norman Lear wants to meet with you, you go,
yes, please. So I told him -- I sat down with him and he -- the first 30 minutes, I can tell you what happened because you're just in awe of this
legend that you're sitting with.
And then he is so disarming, and so just salt of the earth kind of guy, and really really interested in people. Even at 97-years-old, he's still
curious. And he was asking me all these questions and finally he said, you know we're thinking about doing a show and what do you think.
And something in me was like I don't know if you should do it because -- why? I said because we're a very hard audience. People are constantly
trying to get that Lennox audience and we're very different. But then very similar but very proud of our differences and very proud of our
similarities.
And I think there's sort of this panel, the next thing that has happened that people try to appeal to all of us, and it makes all of us feel a
little upset. And he goes, "Well, what would you do?" And I said, well, I would just be super, super, super specific about my personal truth of what
it is to be right next on the West Coast, Cuban American, it's very specific, right? Different than someone -- even different than Cubans in
mid-America or East Coast.
And I told him about my family and told about my mom and dad and their journey as (INAUDIBLE) kids coming to this country in 1962. And he just
said, "Well, let's do that. Let's do that show."
MENENDEZ: And you were convinced?
KELLETT: Oh, yes, yes. Yes, I was convinced. I said OK, let's do it. Let's do it.
And Mike Royce is wonderful. Mike Royce was already attached to the project and the three of us sat down and it was just -- the alchemy of the
moment just was magical.
MENENDEZ: I mean you've worked in almost every writers' room in Hollywood. Mythology.
KELLETT: Yes.
MENENDEZ: Most people know you from How I Met Your Mother.
KELLETT: Yes.
MENENDEZ: Can any of that experience really prepare you for running a show?
KELLETT: A thousand percent, yes. All of those rooms taught me different things. I had some great showrunners, some not great showrunners. Some
people that were great with actors. Some people that did not like interacting with actors. Some people that were great with editing.
So I got to piece together I like this, I don't like this. It was a salad bar of take this and take that of 12 years of salad barring. And then
finally, I was like I know how to make a salad. That's how it came together.
MENENDEZ: But you have done everything on this show as well. I mean in addition to running the show, you're a producer, you were a writer on this
show, you're director. In this season, you were acting in the show. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTOR: Hey.
ELENA: Hey, Papi.
ALEX: Hey, Papi.
VICTOR: Hey. Wow. Looking good, Lupe.
PENELOPE: Thank you.
VICTOR: So is the place -- hey. Ugly pillow in the closet?
LYDIA: You know it.
PENELOPE: So you look good too. Yeah. Where's baby? I mean Blondie. I mean, your girlfriend.
NICOLE: Hi.
PENELOPE: Hi.
ALEX: Oh, wow. Dang. Papi's got a type.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: It is so tricky to see you and Justina Machado look that much alike. I didn't know hair made such a big difference.
KELLETT: I know. Well, when we're hanging out together, people are like, "Are you guys sisters? Are you guys related?" Because we're the same
height, same weight, same, you know, like -- she's thinner. I should point that out. I should point that out for her.
But it's something that we get all the time. And we love each other so much [13:45:00] that the writers were like, "You should play Nicole this
season. You should play. We should put you in a week." And once I put that weight on, it was madness. People kept on confusing us and it was
really fun.
MENENDEZ: There are a lot of serious topics that you had on the show and we'll get to that in a second but the show really is a celebration of our
joy. And I wonder why that was important to you to put that front and center.
KELLETT: So many reasons. I mean look, the main reason is that's my family. My family is a special bunch of people. Everything is joy-filled
in my life and I'm really blessed in that way. But also, I feel like the lack of representation on television for Latinos that are happy and joyful
and living a great, fun, happy, prosperous life is limited.
And so to be able to put that out there, you're always seeing suffering mother, you're always seeing gang bangers and gang violence. And I just
wanted to also show the other side that the narrative of the Latinx right now in this country is very skewed to sort of one story and I feel like
we've exhausted that story.
I am so much more interested in the people that I grew up around my whole life. And that story is just not being reflected right now and it, in
turn, really affects society's view of who we are as people. So I really felt like -- I didn't mean to be telling these stories that would have such
political influence. It doesn't seem political to me. It just seems like this is the truth and telling the truth right now seems to be a political
act.
MENENDEZ: I think for a lot of us who get into media who did not see ourselves reflected back to us in our youth. I often say Steve Urkel was
the character on television who most reminded me of myself growing up because he was from a minority group and he was a nerd.
That has changed but so too has my perception of what real power looks like, that it's no longer enough to see the reflection back. It's no
longer enough to see the story told. I now understand it is important that the people who are making decisions about what gets on air and what gets
resources understand the value of that experience and that diversity.
KELLETT: Absolutely. This is why I'm on the 5050by2020 advisory board because Jill Soloway was very adamant about the leadership in arts and
entertainment being accountable to how women and people of color behind the scenes. These are the tastemakers. These are the people making decisions
about what you see, what everyone sees.
And women and people of color, in particular, have really been led down a path that is inaccurate to who we are and it affects too much. So the
stories become entertaining but also have a little broccoli, right, a little sugar to get that medicine down, changing the narrative so that it's
more reflective of what this country looks like and sounds like and does.
MENENDEZ: What's so interesting for you is that's long been a hallmark of Norman Lear's programming, really getting out the sociocultural issues. I
want to take a look at another clip from the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENELOPE: I hate to admit it but I feel sorry for men. This consent thing is tricky.
ELENA: No. Women always blame themselves and then the man never has to take responsibility. During Rape Prevention Week at school, all the signs
are aimed at women. Girls, don't dress provocatively. Girls, don't walk alone. How about, hey, guys, don't rape?
ALEX: Oh, my God. Why are we talking about that? I took a couple pictures as a joke and Chloe thought it was funny.
ELENA: Did she? Or did she feel like she he had to laugh because she didn't know what else to do with your hand on her boob?
PENELOPE: OK, Elena. Take it easy.
ELENA: No. He thinks what he did is cute. You're basically a predator.
ALEX: You're basically a psycho.
PENELOPE: Wow, you two.
ELENA: Good, call me crazy for defending a woman's right not to be groped.
ALEX: Elena, you're just mad because the Internet told you to be. You don't know my life. You don't even leave this apartment.
ELENA: Because of guys like you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: How do you craft that conversation in a way that is authentic and stops short of feeling like an after-school special?
KELLETT: You know that's the challenge. I mean we really try to be as honest and truthful as we can when we take a lot of conversations for the
room. The writers' room, you know one of our writers, Michelle Badillo is who told us like she was talking about rape prevention week in college.
And she's the one that made that wonderful. Like it's always geared towards women.
And it never really occurred to me until that moment. And so then we start talking about it in the room and some of the guys were like, "Is this going
too far?" No, because of -- we all get fired up in our conversations.
Because really after all this has happened, I'm -- where do we go from here knowing that this is around us raising kids? Like I'm raising kids. I'm
raising a daughter and son. Mike raises -- is raising a daughter and a son. What do we say to them about how to behave, how to act? It seems
like we're telling our women speak up, be empowered. What are we telling our boys?
So it was such a great opportunity with Alex [13:50:00] to be able to see him doing something that is maybe a little innocuous and bad, but where in
that point is he told stop, where other men were not and it snowballed. So can we take an opportunity to have a conversation with this guy and also
have Schneider go through his own revelatory thinking of, "Oh my, God. Have I been a part of this?" because that's also been interesting.
A lot of the men in the writers' room were like, "I mean there were times when I went out with a girl and she said nothing was going to happen then
something happened. Am I complicit?" So it was those conversations that were so interesting to me. So it's -- let's just do this. Let's just do
this and see where it comes from and where do we get to the other side, where is the redemption.
MENENDEZ: It must mean you also have a lot of trust in that writers' room.
KELLETT: Yes. These are all wonderful people. Mike Royce and I, we got so lucky with this group of people. We read a good zillion writers and we
tried -- you know, it's a real -- it's a really specific puzzle you have to put together when putting together a writers' room.
You want a bunch of different voices, some joke people, some story people, character people. And then over time, you get really, really comfortable
hopefully so that people can share and be vulnerable. It's vulnerable to admit your failings and your successes.
MENENDEZ: We talk a lot about a changing America and how that is reflected back to us in media. But part of what is changing is our consumption
habits. And sometimes when I watch One Day At A Time, I wonder could this show exists on broadcast.
KELLETT: Interesting. I think it could. It would be a lot shorter because broadcast is 22, sometimes 20 I'm hearing now, 20, 21 minutes. We
get 26 to 28.
MENENDEZ: Luxurious.
KELLETT: Luxurious which is a B story or a C story or a lingering look or a quiet moment which you don't get a lot on network because there's no
time. You really have to kind of fight for those jokes.
So the time, that would be the biggest thing that would be difficult. But in terms of the topics that we talk about, this is the stuff like you said
that Norman was doing in the '70s.
Although he told me a funny story that CBS had done a retrospective of him and had called him up and said, "What are your favorite clips so we can add
it to this retrospective?" And some of his clips they cannot air now.
MENENDEZ: What?
KELLETT: Standards and practices could not air now. Sounds like what?
MENENDEZ: So great.
KELLETT: Isn't that amaze -- that's how groundbreaking Norman Lear was.
MENENDEZ: Now, you just want to watch him montage --
KELLETT: I know. I know.
MENENDEZ: Your show is now back on the air. And Netflix which is a streaming service evaluates in a very short period of time whether or not
they believe that a show has been a success. What does that mean for you as a creator and what does that mean for us as consumers?
KELLETT: Well, the beauty of Netflix is the creative process is unlike any other we've experienced anywhere. They are so supportive. They let us
make the show that we want to make. Their notes are thoughtful.
I mean it's painful for writers to say that executive notes are thoughtful and great. They are. So the creative process is incredible. Once you put
it out into the world, then they have all these ways of evaluating it that we don't know.
So all we know are the numbers. All we know are the phone calls where they say, "We wish more people were watching" or "Not as many people watched as
we hoped" and we don't know what the cost-benefit analysis that they're looking at is.
So we -- at the first season, we kind of said nothing, we're like what do we do? And then last year, I was like no, I love this too much. I love
these people too much. I'm just going to let the Internet know, "Hey, if you want to help us out and you love the show, don't like watch it once a
week, like binge it because they're deciding right now." And I had no idea that that tweet was going to go viral.
And so that really I think was one of the factors that helped to save the show.
MENENDEZ: You are very transparent and I think a lot of people appreciate your transparency around how challenging just getting in the door inside of
Hollywood can be. You're often on Twitter, giving advice, counsel to would be writers. Why is that important to you?
KELLETT: Because I didn't know anybody either. Because I feel for what that struggle is. I grew up in Portland, Oregon and then we moved to San
Diego and I just didn't know anyone in the industry. I had no idea how to go about doing this.
Colleges now I think are so much better at setting people up for when they graduate. But my college which I loved just didn't really have a path or
here are the steps that you do when you graduate. So I wanted to be able to offer up like the library of Gloria's limited brain for people to -- I
don't know everything but I'll tell you what I know so that maybe your road will be a little bit easier or you'll feel like, OK, I'm on the right track
or I don't know.
It's just putting some -- the Internet is so full of negativity that any time we can put a little bit of kindness into the world, it just makes
things better.
MENENDEZ: Gloria, thank you so much.
KELLETT: Oh, thank you.
AMANPOUR: And that is it for now. Thanks for watching. And goodbye from London.
END
