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Amanpour
Major Lockdown, Key to Stopping Coronavirus Spread; New York Governor Calls for U.S. Army Corps Engineers; Safety for Health Care Workers; Oxiris Barbot, New York City Health Commissioner, is Interviewed About New York Lockdown; Prime Minister Boris Johnson Urges People to Stop All Unnecessary Social Contact; Dr. Sonia Adesara, U.K. National Health Service, is Interviewed About U.K.'s Plans for Coronavirus; Meltdown on Global Markets; Headlines Predicts Deep Global Recession; Interview With David Axelrod; Interview With Harvard Economics Professor Jason Furman. Aired 2 -3p ET
Aired March 16, 2020 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour" live from London. Here's what's coming up.
The ever-deepening coronavirus fallout, threatening health care systems, economies, social and political infrastructure around the world. New York
City goes into lockdown and the health commissioner will join me.
Plus, the U.K. goes its own way, including U-turns, adding confusion to its response. A senior national health service doctor on the front lines joins
me.
Then, no matter what central banks do, global markets keep going down. Top economist, Jason Fuhrman, gives us his take.
And the Presidential Race, David Axelrod, former campaign manager and senior advisor to President Obama tells me how the virus will change the
2020 election.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London, where the British government is stepping up its response to the coronavirus
infections and the rapidly escalating number of cases in the West is transforming life for hundreds of millions of people.
There are around 170,000 confirmed cases across the world right now and the death toll has jumped to more than 6,400. For the first time, cases outside
China outnumber those inside. As that country and many Asian neighbors get a grip on this virus. While in America, several large states in major
lockdown with entertainment, hospitality, schools and large gatherings banned. This is key to stopping the spread but so too is testing as we hear
again from the World Health Organization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEDROS ADHANOM, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: You cannot fight a fire blindfolded and we cannot stop this pandemic if we don't know
who is infected. We have a simple message for all countries, test, test, test.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that is just not happening and we'll explore why. We'll also explore the cataclysmic economic impact amid sobering warnings of a deep
global recession to come. For the first time in this unprecedented global health crisis, President Trump and leaders of the top G7 economies met
online to try to coordinate a joint response.
Meantime, cities and states in the United States are taking matters into their own hands with lockdowns and in New York, the governor is calling for
the U.S. army corps of engineers to do what it does best, get building and retrofitting to provide desperately needed hospital beds.
Joining me now with answers is New York City's health commissioner, Dr. Oxiris Barbot. Welcome, Commissioner, from City Hall.
OXIRIS BARBOT, NEW YORK CITY HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Let me start by asking you where you think your city is right now. We hear, obviously today, that the tri-state area, New York,
Connecticut and New Jersey, have gone into a coordinated response, banning gatherings of more than 50 and doing, as I outlined a number, of social
distancing measures. What is the situation right now in your view?
BARBOT: Right now, we have documented widespread community transmission, which means that it's more likely for a New Yorker to contract COVID-19
from someone here already in New York City than from someone who's bringing it in from the outside. And as a result of having community wide
transmission, we are now taking very significant steps in order to slow down the spread of that illness as well as reduce the potential harm to New
Yorkers and that's why we have closed schools, that's why we have taken extreme measures overnight.
AMANPOUR: And can you imagine anymore measures being taken? And I just want to ask you because you heard the head of the World Health Organization
say it isn't just social distancing, it is also self-isolation when necessary and that's not -- people haven't kind of quite got a grip with
the importance of that. But most especially, the idea of testing and that seems to be a massive hole in this response. What can you tell me about
testing and whether it's possible that you might get any new kits?
BARBOT: So, in the immediate period, early on in the investigation or the outbreak rather, testing was really very critical. And right now, given the
widespread community transmission that we have, we are pivoting to focus testing on those who need it the most, simply because there are concerns
about ensuring that those individuals that are not getting better have access to care and importantly, have access to testing.
[14:05:00]
So, from our estimation or from our stance, it is really critical that the federal government move more quickly in expanding access to automation in
these tests. So, rather than having to wait three or four days for results, we can get them in a matter of hours.
AMANPOUR: I just want to point out, you know, in your area, it's not exactly in your area but very close to New York is Pennsylvania. And there,
at the Penn Medical area there, there are anecdotal reports, people who our teams talked to, nurses on the front lines saying they just don't even have
the proper masks, not the flimsy things that you can put on, you know, for, you know, a dental appointment, but the kind of stuff that front line
medical health care professionals trying to deal with this virus need and they just don't have it. What is the state of preparedness and safety for
your health care workers?
BARBOT: Currently, the use of proper personal protective equipment is paramount to ensuring the safety, stability of our health care workforce
and we, over the last several years, have put together a supply of these masks so that our health care workforce have appropriate access to surgical
masks, to higher levels of mask. But certainly, if we get the number of cases that we anticipate getting, we are very concerned about the ongoing
supply and so, that's another area where we need the federal government to step in and to ensure that whether it is New York City, Pennsylvania or any
other jurisdiction, there's no question about having a potential shortage of really critical personal protective equipment that will ensure the
safety and security of our health care workforce.
AMANPOUR: Commissioner, the World Health Organization has said again that every government needs to be an all-government approach, every arm and
aspect of government needs to be directed to fighting this virus. Do you feel that in the United States there is such a nationwide effort?
BARBOT: Well, first, let me start off here in New York City. Our mayor has mobilized every aspect of government to be working on addressing COVID-19
in New York City. I would love to say that I am seeing that similar approach across the United States. And I think that is an area where having
more leadership at the federal level would certainly help us all have consistency across various jurisdictions.
AMANPOUR: Well, I guess I hear you reading between the lines saying that that's not the case. And Governor Cuomo today said that this is not about,
you know, one state doing something, one city doing something, one area in a city doing something different, it has to be a coordinated federal
approach in light of such a massive emergency.
So, he called for, for instance, the president to authorize the army corps of engineers to build and retrofit whatever areas that can be provided to
make them into, you know, emergency hospitals, fever centers and beds, beds, beds. Let me just show you what he said, as you probably know, but
let's play again for our viewers what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): We have an impending catastrophe when this wave of growth crashes on the hospital system and we don't have the capacity.
Start now. Bring in that army corps of engineers. This is what they do. They build. I'll give them dormitories. Build temporary medical facilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, presumably you agree with that, right?
BARBOT: We are in active conversations with all of the intensive care units of hospitals here in New York City to ensure that we have an
appropriate and adequate supply of intensive care unit beds. B ut certainly, I agree with the governor that if we get the number of cases
that are anticipate, we will need federal support to ensure that no resident of New York State, New York City goes without the services, health
care services that they will need in this pandemic.
AMANPOUR: So, what is your, you know, what is your sort of diagramming, imaging? What kind of casualties are you expecting? What is your worst-case
scenario, your best-case scenario and how many beds do you have? How many respirators do you have?
[14:10:00]
BARBOT: You know, part of the challenge of really projecting what those numbers will be is that we have never been in this situation before. And we
are paying very close attention to ensuring that we are matching our intensive care unit support to the number of people we need.
Currently, we know we have roughly 1,200 beds that are at the appropriate level of isolation that's called for. Additionally, we have the best health
care delivery system in the world, I would argue, here in New York City. But the truth of the matter is that it's very hard to project exactly how
many of those intensive care beds we will need and that's why we agree with the governor's statement that we, the worst thing we can do is under react
to this pandemic. We need to have a very aggressive forward-leaning approach to ensure if and when we need the beds, we will have them.
AMANPOUR: 1,200 beds do not sound -- does not sound very much. And I just want to put this to you because, obviously, people are very concerned that
even in major democracies and major economies like the United States, the health care system will be overwhelmed.
The New York congresswoman, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, has said, want to know one major reason why South Korea has had a stellar rapid response and
quickly produced and scaled up to 10,000 tests a day? They have a single payer, Medicare for all system, we don't. Remember why it's so important to
fight for health care as a human right.
I mean, this crisis has exposed the deficiencies, some of them, in the American health care system. Is there -- I mean, it's too soon to talk
about a learning experience, but do you think that, A, you will get what you need for this crisis and will it change the way governments invest in
the health care system?
BARBOT: I think that's a really important question and it is important to note that since the economic recession of 2009 there has been a systemic
disinvestment in the public health system. All of the dollars are going to the health care delivery system, when in reality, we needed stronger
support in the public health system.
Here in New York City, we are very fortunate that we have one of the best public health care delivery systems, but that in and of itself is not
enough. We need to ensure that we have strong public health support because addressing this pandemic is certainly critical to have a strong health care
workforce but it is also critical to have the public health supports that will enable testing and that will enable providing public education in real
time to communities, all of that is important.
And let me also add that we are -- our mayor has called for nationalizing the production of ventilators. Again, to ensure that we are all focused,
laser focused, on the fact that when and if we need that kind of support we may not have the traditional beds to use but we can have tents where people
can and will have access to the intensive care services that they may need.
AMANPOUR: Commissioner Barbot, we wish you good luck and we'll be checking in with you. Thank you very much for being with us tonight.
BARBOT: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Now, while others lock down to try and contain the virus, the U.K. has been an outlier by remaining open. Now, though, it's doing a bit
of an about face. Prime Minister Boris Johnson urging people to "stop all unnecessary social contact and turning against mass gatherings." Will this
be enough to counter the disease? Well, joining me U.K.'s front-lines is the national health service doctor, Sonia Adesara.
Welcome to the program, Dr. Adesara.
SONIA ADESARA, U.K. NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: So, you know, you have been in emergency care. You're a front- line doctor here in a part of London. Can you give me a lay of the land? Just paint a picture of what is happening in the hospitals now,
particularly the ones, you know, that you're at.
ADESARA: So, the whole health service nationally preparing for this virus. We have known for quite a few weeks that this virus is coming and
preparations are happening. You'll start to see over the next few weeks things like routine operations being canceled because we want to try and
free up ICU beds. There's talk about bringing in staff, retired staff, retired doctors and retired nurses because we're worried about shortages of
health care staff. And we're also seeing certain clinics in the community be canceled and outpatient services canceled, again, trying to free up
staff to open up the capacity particularly around in our hospitals and intensive care units.
[14:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, look, the world and certainly Great Britain points to the NHS system as one of the best public health care systems in the world.
ADESARA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Are you confident that you have what it takes? You just heard the health commissioner in New York City, they do not have enough beds. The
governor's called for --
ADESARA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- the federal army to be deployed to do what it does, build emergency beds for those who get sick. Do you have enough front-line staff?
Are they protected enough? Certainly, testing is not happening. Can you just tell us what you have and what are the biggest challenges?
ADESARA: I guess just listening to your previous guest, I do feel very lucky to be working in the National Health Service in U.K. because we do
have a world-class service and everyone has access to it, free health care, that's free community care, free intensive care, free access to testing.
So, we're very lucky to have that.
And also, because we have a nationalized health care system, where the response is able to be coordinated nationally. So, we're able to move staff
in different units, we are able to work together, we are able to set up community services. We have an NHS 111 service, which allows people to be -
- speak to a health care professional without going in. So, we've been able to have a very coordinated action plan to this, and very quickly.
But there are difficulties. We have -- our health care service, for the past decade, has been underfunded. Prior to this, our health care service
was -- we did have quite severe staff shortages across the health care service and many of us front-line staff have been making a lot of noise
over the last few years that we do not have enough hospital beds compared to other countries in Europe. And intensive care beds is one of the areas
where we do have one of the least number of beds per person compared to other European countries. So, Germany, for example, has four times the
number of intensive care beds than we do.
Having said that, there are plans being put in place now to increase that capacity. So, as I've said, we are increasing intensive care beds. We are
buying -- we are creating -- buying more ventilators and we're trying to train up staff to use these ventilators, but it is going to be difficult
few weeks.
And you're talking about testing. So, there's been a decision made last week to stop testing in the community and the testing is just going to be
focused now on people going into hospital. Again, I think that's a capacity issue. But that's another problem. And then the other issue that I heard
you talk about is protective equipment. It does concern me that health care professionals in the moment in the country are not being given adequate
protective equipment, and that's something that we have, again, been calling on our government to ensure that all health care professionals have
protective equipment to make sure that they're not putting their health at risk.
AMANPOUR: I mean, it really does sound a massive mountain to climb and there are dire predictions. I mean, "The Guardian" newspaper has seen a
report of Public Health England that says the coronavirus in the U.K., the epidemic, could last until next spring and could lead to 7.9 million people
being hospitalized. It, in other words, the briefing also suggests that health chiefs are braced for as many as 80 percent of Britain's become
infected with the coronavirus over that time.
What in terms -- I mean, you've just explained the -- you know, the challenges in terms of capacity, beds, testing, equipment, et cetera,
ventilators. What about -- lots of people want to know, is it just people who show symptoms who could spread it or is it asymptomatic as well?
There's a lot of confusion about what actually -- who are the dangerous ones, so to speak?
ADESARA: Yes. I think there is a lot of confusion because, firstly, this is a new virus. So, we are learning as we go along with this. Now, we think
that there is an incubation period for up to 14 days. So, by incubation period, it means that you have the virus but you're not showing symptoms.
And we think it is actually quite likely that in that incubation period you may be able to spread the virus.
So, I have just heard before coming into the studio that the government advice has now changed. So, previously, the advice has been that if you
have symptoms, then you need to self-isolate. And now, I heard the government advices, if there's someone in your family that has symptoms,
then we would like the whole family, everyone else around them in that household to also self-isolate.
So, this is a -- and we ask people to self-isolate for 14 days. So, this is a big ask but it is so important. The reason why this self-isolation is so
important is because -- and I'm sure your viewers know the numbers, but, you know, the mortality rate is about 1 percent, about 5 percent of people
will need critical care support and about 10 percent of cases will need admitting to hospital.
[14:20:00]
Now, as you have seen in other countries, this virus is potential to spread very quickly, it's very infectious virus, it's very easy to spread. And if
we start to get lots of cases, very quickly, our health care system in the U.K. and I'm sure in the U.S. could become overwhelmed very, very quickly.
And then you could then see getting preventable deaths, not just from coronavirus, but, of course, from other conditions as well if you don't
have capacity and don't have space available in your hospitals.
So, it's so, so important that we try and slow down how quickly this virus spreads to try and reduce the number of admissions into hospital so that we
don't overwhelm and crash the health care system. That's why we're having these social isolation and policies putting forward.
I would like to see from all governments across the world to help people self-isolate. Say, for example, problem, I work in London and I know that
are many families if you ask them to self-isolate for two weeks, not going to work, that means they will be struggling to put food on the table. So,
we need to also ensure that people have enough sick income, getting support financially to able to self-isolate and do the things we need them to do to
ensure that we try and slow down the spread of this virus and prevent deaths.
And if you look at other countries, it is possible. If you look at China and South Korea and Singapore, they have managed to slow down the spread of
the virus and reduce the mortality rate. We can do it. We just need fast action from our governments.
AMANPOUR: Right. Well, that's the key, isn't it, and the World Health Organization said the same. It has to be -- it's got to be a massive
political commitment, not just a resources commitment, not just a testing commitment, which, as we have said, is simply not happening. There is not
enough testing and that's causing a huge amount of concern within your business, in other words, the health care business and, obviously, people
on the ground.
But, you know, Britain, we have been sitting here for several days being told don't go -- don't ban schools, don't ban gatherings, you know,
business as normal. We want to have this herd immunity. However, they think they are do that in an untested situation. And now, it looks like they're
changing. So, I want your medical opinion on the idea that somehow 80 percent of us were meant to be in infected in this country to create a herd
immunity and the fact that they seem to be trying to change this now, that they want self-isolation and social distancing.
ADESARA: It does seem that strategy has changed. As I heard -- I listened to the health secretary yesterday and he said that this herd immunity is no
longer their strategy. I'm not an epidemiologist. So, I'm not -- and I don't have the access to the data that our chief medical officer and chief
scientific officer have access to. So, I think we need to trust our experts on this.
But I guess I can just talk from the expertise of working on the front-line and that our health care service will not cope if we start to see large
numbers of cases. So, from my point of view, I guess, from a front-line worker's point of view, we have to slow down the spread of the virus. And
in my opinion, I want our governments to do everything that they can to slow down the spread of this virus because, I guess, for me, one death --
one preventable death is one death too many. So, we need to do everything that we can to slow down the spread.
And if you just look at Italy, if you look at where Italy was two weeks ago to where Italy is now, two weeks ago, they had a handful number of -- a
handful of cases. Now, they have over 1,000 deaths, over 10,000 cases. We do not want to be in that situation. I have heard from colleagues in Italy
that they're in a really difficult situation and having to choose who gets admitted to ICU and who doesn't, we cannot allow ourselves get into that
situation. So, our governments need to act now. We need radical action and they need to act fast because this virus spreads very quickly. Time is not
a luxury we just don't have right now.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, I need to ask you because you mentioned China and South Korea, Taiwan, all those countries that actually did get a grip on them.
Yes, China is communist authoritarian regime but South Korea is not, Taiwan is not. And as you mentioned, they both also, you know, instituted
aggressive, the word is aggressive, as the W.H.O. says --
ADESARA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- it has to be aggressive.
ADESARA: Aggressive and acted quick.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. Acted quick. But they also, apparently, have this app. Let me just read a little bit about it. China has come up with this app
which assigns a color code, green, yellow or red, indicating people's health status. And it's a system that's already used in about 200 Chinese
cities and being rolled out nationwide. Is that something that would help health professionals know quickly who's infected, who's not, to be able to
isolate the worst off and the rest of it? Is that a useful tool, do you think? Do you wish you had it?
ADESARA: So, the app has given -- so, at the moment, I'm not quite sure what the app is. But at the moment, we are only testing people -- in
England, we're only testing people now who get admitted to hospital. So, we're not doing community testing, which is the advice of our chief
scientific officer and medical officer. So, we are not doing testing in the community. But I think we do need to learn from other countries here.
[14:25:00]
I heard also on your program that the global leaders got together and had a meeting today to discuss the global response to this, which is good, but I
guess I'm astounded that's happening now, it should have happened three months ago. We have known about this virus since December. It does seem
that a lot of countries are not prepared as they should be. We've known about this virus from December. We have seen it spreading across the world.
It doesn't -- we need -- it doesn't feel that we are as prepared as we should be. I think all of our governments now need to really get a grip and
also learn from countries that have got a grip on the crisis and learn quick.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Adesara, I can hear the urgency in your words and what you are telling us. Thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. It is really
important. Thank you so much.
ADESARA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And now, the financial fallout is dramatic as well, with grim headlines predicting a deep global recession ahead, markets keep tumbling,
no matter how much the U.S. federal reserve and other central banks try to intervene. This means businesses and workers are also in free fall,
wondering whether or where they will find a safety net.
Joining me is Harvard Kennedy School professor, Jason Furman. He was a top economic advisor to President Obama during the last meltdown, the financial
crisis of 2008.
Jason Furman, welcome to the program.
JASON FURMAN, FORMER CHAIR, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Thanks for having me.
AMANPOUR: First and foremost, do you see an end in sight to this meltdown on global markets, on the macro level? And why hasn't any of this
macroeconomic sort of interventions helped at all?
FURMAN: Yes. Christiane, you know, we have never seen anything like this economically. Certainly not in the United States. I'm not aware of anything
where the entire country basically shut down simultaneously for a period of no one knows how long it will last.
I think the fed has done exactly the right things. It's used a lot of its tools, but I think they know and I think the market knows that those tools
are of limited use in a circumstance like this. The most important thing is containing the spread of the virus, starting to figure out a way to cure
people with antivirals or a vaccine. That's a long way off. And you know, flattening the curve until then.
On the economic side, the biggest tools we have aren't the ones at the fed, they're the ones that the president and the Congress have with fiscal
policy. I think a very large fiscal stimulus is going to be needed and I think the markets would be happy when they see it. More importantly, I
think a lot of American workers would be happy when they see it.
AMANPOUR: Can you explain what that means, beyond the -- you know, the sort of wonky title of financial stimulus? For those who are not steeped in
your business, explain what that looks like.
FURMAN: Sure. It generally means you either raise government spending or cut government taxes. Often you do a combination of both of those. In part,
it is motivated directly by circumstances. So, now is a time for the government to pay for free testing, which was in the bill that the House
passed, to pay for what it can for -- to expand hospital capacity, as you have been talking with your previous guests on the show, to pay for people
who are unemployed, people going without food and the like.
If you add up the cost of all of that, though, it's still not enough for the sake of the economy and it's still not enough for the tens of millions
of families that are going to see their incomes and livelihood hurt by this situation and, you know, need some help.
So, personally, I have advocated giving a check, $1,000 per person, $500 per child, if you wanted to make it larger, I wouldn't argue with that. For
some people, that would help them stay home. For other people it would help them pay the rent. And, you know, when we contain the virus, that money
would be there to help them start to spend more money and get us into a recovery more quickly.
AMANPOUR: So, let me just -- I'm sure you know this, but just for viewers and to talk about this now, the U.S. -- basically, France is pledging tens
of billions of euros to cushion the shock for their workers. Financial aid, for instance, for businesses, cutting back hours without layoffs. Also, we
have got the German finance minister saying that they want to, you know, provide the big bazooka, in other words, guaranteed liquidity to German
businesses and, obviously, others are talking about trying to help individual people who are going to need the helping hand of the state in
order to survive and to be able to eat and to remain in their homes. Is that the kind of thing that also needs to happen?
[14:30:00]
FURMAN: Yes, absolutely.
The last part of the response, you want to improve -- you want to deal with the health. You want to improve the safety net for anyone affected. And the
biggest thing you want to do is try to prevent people from losing their jobs in the first place.
And that's going to take something like massive loans to businesses, a massive new workout procedure for businesses that can't pay the loans that
they already have. Some have talked about making grants to businesses, bailouts, and the like. I would try to avoid that, but if it needs to
happen, with some mutual sacrifice of all parties, including shareholders, that's worth thinking about too.
And the goal of all of that would not be to help businesses. It would be to help the millions of people throughout the world that are employed by these
businesses.
And, right now, these businesses aren't going to be able to afford to pay those people, keep them on payroll, and, you know, making sure that we
minimize this disruption to the economy, because, if something goes down, you can't just flip a switch six months later and rev the economy back up.
You need to be building that bridge to whenever that rev back up is going to happen.
AMANPOUR: OK, so that's really interesting, because some have said that, well, look, we are just going to have to ride this out. It's a health
crisis. You do have demand in society at large.
You do have money in society at large. You do have supply, if all this can get back again, and the economy will bounce back. But you're saying, no,
not -- not if it's left to tank now.
FURMAN: I'm saying I wouldn't count on that happening, Christiane.
There's a lingo in economics called a V-shape recovery. The economy goes straight down, the economy comes straight back up.
We haven't seen one of those in the United States since the early 1980s. If you look at the United States, Europe, Japan, and the like, historically,
unemployment rates can go up much faster than they go down. They can go up 4 percentage points in a year.
It usually takes something like six years for them, then, to work off that gain. A business whose balance sheet is damaged has a hard time getting
back into business, hiring workers.
For all of these reasons, I would not count on an immediate rebound as soon as this virus passes. And, by the way, who knows how long it will take to
pass. I think you need to be acting now to make sure that you're not just protecting people today, but you're putting the economy in a place where it
can rebound in the future.
AMANPOUR: Well, you have obviously been there before, because you were right at the heart of it during the 2008 meltdown, the Great Recession.
And there was a lot of stimulus. I heard you very clearly say, we're not -- I'm not suggesting what needs to be done now just to help business, but to
help people. Obviously, people were -- had questions about whether the bank bailout back then was right or not, et cetera.
Do you see the political will from the administration, from the secretary of the Treasury, who's negotiating with the speaker of the House, to
actually do this, in the way they came together, both sides, last time?
FURMAN: I am -- I am a little bit cautiously hopeful.
The House and Senate passed a bill and the president signed a first one related to the health emergency. The House has now passed a second bill,
and I think the Senate will pass it relatively soon.
Really importantly, Secretary Mnuchin and Speaker Pelosi negotiated that bill together. Speaker Pelosi did this before in 2008. I think she was a
great negotiating partner in the crisis with then Secretary Paulson in the Bush administration.
As long as President Trump delegates to Speaker -- to Secretary Mnuchin and lets him conduct this type of negotiation, then I think two of them, Pelosi
and Mnuchin, are perfectly capable at getting to yes for important things for our country.
Whether President Trump lets them or not, I can't predict that any better than anyone else.
AMANPOUR: But you're saying, so far, he has, right?
FURMAN: He did with this bill. At first, he said he was going to oppose it. And then, a couple hours later, he tweeted his support for it.
And he wants the stock market to go up, not down. If you do the right thing on fiscal stimulus, the stock market's more likely to go up than down. So,
I am a little bit hopeful that there is an infrastructure to work together on this.
Everyone understands that we need a third piece of legislation. We're probably going to need a fourth and a fifth. But people are already talking
about what's in that third piece of legislation. People know it needs to be big.
And I think we may stumble our way there, not as quickly as I'd like, but very quickly by normal standards.
AMANPOUR: I just want to play an observation.
[14:35:03]
It's a little worrying, because your successor, the current head of the Council of Economic Advisers to this administration, to the president, has
said that the U.S. could see a million jobs shed in April.
Let's just play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: The issue is just that we think the next week of the survey week, there are going to be
basically no hires, but there will probably be a normal amount of fires.
And if that happens, you're looking at one of the biggest negative jobs numbers that we have ever seen. Now, of course, that would hopefully
reverse itself quickly, if we get ahead of the curve on this.
But there's a whole bunch of really bad numbers coming in. And I think that's why the market is responding the way it is right now to the Federal
Reserve's action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Do you -- what's your reaction to that?
FURMAN: Yes, I think we could see enormous job losses out of this up front.
It's not just that companies aren't hiring or you're starting to see some layoffs already. There is anecdotal evidence it. I think we will see more
in the days to come.
And the problem is, as I was saying before -- and this is true across the global economy -- it is just much easier to fire people than it is to hire
them. It takes time to post a job opening, feel confident enough to hire someone, pay them a salary.
So, I don't think these things are symmetric. It's easier to lose a lot of jobs than it is to gain a lot of jobs.
AMANPOUR: You talked about the people who are going to be -- well, the people who are most risk with their jobs right now. And it's all sort of
the consumer economy, right?
It's all the service economy, really, the bars, the restaurants, the theaters, movies, sports, and entertainment, even airlines. And airlines
are really hurting. And they -- some are asking for bailouts. And some say they may go under. I mean, major airlines say that they're going to -- they
are currently grounding or thinking of grounding 75 to 80 percent of their flights.
And they may not make it up the other -- out the other end. Should they be bailed out?
FURMAN: I would much rather try to structure something involving loans.
The loans could be on favorable terms. Maybe we wouldn't get all the money back from the loans. But I would rather make that our first line of
approach, before we talk about actually making explicit transparent grants to businesses.
But, you know -- but I am open to doing whatever it takes to keeping the economy going.
AMANPOUR: Finally, I want to ask you about messaging, as weird as that sounds, about leadership, about presenting a united, competent and coherent
front.
For the first time, we understand, the United States and the other members of the G7 major economies got on the phone, so to speak today to try to
figure out a joint response.
What is your assessment about the kind of leadership that's needed? And do you think -- well, it's obviously been slow to try to get a joint
messaging, but what can we expect going forward? What would be the most useful going forward now?
FURMAN: Yes, there was a joint statement from the G7 finance ministers, I think about two weeks ago.
There was coordination in the actions by global central banks yesterday. There's more conversations today.
It's hard to coordinate in these situations, because it's not like the finance ministers have the authority to spend money. They need their
parliaments or their congresses to go along with it.
But I think, the more coordination in a situation like this, the better. And the good news is, the countries' interests are aligned. It's hard to
coordinate if one country is being affected by something and another country isn't.
It's incredibly, incredibly unfortunate, from a health perspective, that this is affecting all of us in a terrible way, but that means that the
answer for all of us is quite similar. So at least we don't need to argue over that.
AMANPOUR: I think it was you or another expert who said, this is unprecedented, because it's a massive hurricane all over the world, all at
the same time, with no real idea when it's going to stop.
So, I just want to ask you whether you take any comfort or sort of interest from what China's gone through. Yes, they were slow in the beginning. Yes,
they kept it secret for a while. Then they went into major aggressive action.
And now they have less cases there than the people -- the countries on the out. And it's going to try to open up businesses again.
What do you expect China's actions to deliver? And could it have a calming effect?
FURMAN: Yes, I think it might, the fact they have Apple stores open in China, and basically nowhere else in the world.
[14:40:00]
But China's still doing a very aggressive set of social distancing, of monitoring, and contact tracing, of a type that I'm not sure that we could
pull off.
So, if -- we're doing something relatively heavy-handed, completely appropriate, I 100 percent support it, all across the country. I don't know
if we have the medium setting on what we're doing to be able to let people back out while the virus is still out.
I think that's an open question for me. But I should say, I actually feel, in some ways, more optimistic than I did a week ago, because I think
Western society, United States, Europe, have reacted much more than I expected they would.
They have done much more to close universities, close schools, close restaurants. That's terrifying in the short run, but that's incredibly
encouraging about where we might be to limit the damage over the medium and long run.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm very happy to hear you say you're at least a little bit encouraged.
Jason Furman, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us from Harvard tonight.
FURMAN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Now, coronavirus, was, of course, the main item on the agenda during last night's Democratic debate.
It was an eerily quiet one-on-one between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. It took place without an audience. The two started with an elbow bump. And
COVID-19 has truly reshaped the political race, the landscape of 2020.
And on that topic, I'm joined by David Axelrod. He is the former senior adviser to President Obama.
David Axelrod, welcome to the program.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be with you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So , just to follow on from your former colleague Jason Furman and others who you have been listening to, I mean, you went through it as
well. You were there when the last great big -- well, it wasn't a crash, but a big recession, happened.
I mean, what do you -- just your reaction to leadership and how you think this is going?
AXELROD: Well, I mean, there's good news and there's bad news.
What I have seen is the innate sense of spirit of the American people rallying to do things, to help others, to -- I heard today about someone
who's organizing a group to go and deliver meals to seniors in the community, so they don't have to go -- or to buy groceries for them and
bring them back.
And you hear stories like this. I have seen governors rally across the country.
We have had elements of the federal government, Dr. Fauci, who I worked with when I was in the government, who is superb, and who has been giving
people straight, unvarnished truths and counseling them on what to do.
We have had a problem with the president, because his instinct is to spin and sell. And this is an -- pandemics can't be spun. And the best thing
that a president can do is give people the best information he has, to be truthful and candid about the challenge, and to give people confidence that
the government is doing everything that the government can, and to enlist them to deal with a crisis like this.
We were slow out of the gate. As you may know, the president disbanded the pandemic unit that was built into his National Security Council left the
Obama administration. He disbanded that in 2018. So, he lost his early warning system and his ability to really organize the government quickly.
That time can't be reclaimed, and that time will make a difference in terms of how pervasive this virus can be. So, I hope that we can rally here and
that the government will and the president himself will take guidance from the health professionals, public health professionals, and give people the
information that they need.
AMANPOUR: Well, certainly, in New York City, the mayor has talked about a war footing in terms of massing an all-purpose response.
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, let me then ask you, because, obviously, you brought up the politics as well.
And we're talking about, you know, the first debate between the two men left standing, Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden, off -- sort of behind closed
doors, so to speak, no audience, nobody there to react to, just themselves.
So, tell me how you thought it went. I'm not talking who won, who lost, but what was the conversation? What was the focus? And -- and how is this whole
thing going to reshape this race?
AXELROD: Yes, you know, it was so interesting. I was sitting in the studio adjoining theirs at CNN. And it did feel like wartime. And it does feel
that way in many ways as you walk the streets of Washington, and you see these empty restaurants and bars and fewer people on the streets.
But, here, you know, they came -- you know, we're accustomed to debates in front of large crowds. They came into a skeletal crew of people, you know,
podiums six feet apart.
[14:45:14]
And the sobriety of the situation was apparent from the start. They both spoke in wartime language about what we were up against with this virus.
And it's very clear. It took up the first 40 minutes, I think, of the debate. This is what's on the minds of the American people. As Jason Furman
discussed, there are profound economic concerns for everyday people, many of whom can't work, you know, or have to worry about their children at home
and don't know how to balance that, you know, gig workers who are losing their source of income.
There's a lot of anxiety, on top of the public health anxiety about the virus itself. And that was reflected in the discussion last night. And I
think it has a number of effects on the campaign.
One is I think that, you know, Joe Biden has experience in these kind of situations. He was in the White House for not just the financial crisis,
which had some of the economic features of this, but also the H1N1 epidemic in 2009, the Ebola outbreak in 2014.
He understands the levers of power and how they can be used in situations like this. And that was very apparent in his answers to these questions. He
seemed very comfortable, in command, very presidential.
Bernie Sanders largely stuck to his fundamental points about the need for universal health care, Medicare for all. He had a few unkind words for the
pharmaceutical companies and warned that they're going to try and profiteer off of that.
I thought that didn't ring very well, given the environment we have out there. But he used the time to basically burnish the basic message.
Biden was sending a signal: I'm ready to roll here. I know what needs to be done and I can handle a situation like this.
So that's one effect. The terrain has shifted in Biden's favor. The election had already shifted in Biden's favor. It is very possible that he
can wrap up -- effectively wrap up the nomination tomorrow night.
He already has an almost impossible lead to surmount. And Bernie Sanders will have to make a decision. But this also freezes the race, because you
can't campaign. You can't hold rallies. It is not the top of the news. It is not even the third, fourth or fifth story on the news.
So, if you're an insurgent trying to catch up, this is an impossible situation for you.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get to that in two secs, the actual ability anymore to go to rallies, to go door to door, to shake hands...
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: ... to meet with people.
But, first, I just want to pick up on something you said.
There's -- there will be another debate. You think that Biden could wrap it up tomorrow night. But the bottom line is that this universal health care,
or the idea that there needs to be a proper health care system for all Americans, is surely going to get a huge amount of traction because of this
-- because of this catastrophe right now.
I mean, you know, I mean, Andrew Cuomo has called for a federal response to all of this, even call out the Army. OK, that's to build beds and hospital
space and all the rest of it.
But it is impossible to imagine that, because of this disparate coverage and all the rest of it, some Americans are just not even covered.
AXELROD: Yes.
Well, look, I think that there are two issues here. And Biden did a good job of separating them out last night. There is the crying need to have
some sort of universal system here, whether you get at it by dint of building on the Obamacare program, or whether you get at it as more of a
single-payer program, which is what Senator Sanders is proposing, and, you know, without private insurance.
That's one debate.
What you have here now is a public health emergency. And even -- regardless of how you had -- how your insurance system worked, there is just a
capacity issue here.
What Andrew Cuomo is calling more and what Biden did again last night was to mobilize the Army Corps of Engineers, for example, to build temporary
hospital units, so that you can handle what may be an overflow, what probably will be an overflow of patients, when this thing crests.
And that's the big concern right now. Do we have the facilities and the equipment to deal with the patients that are going to have to be treated
for this? That is a separate issue.
[14:50:00]
And, as Biden pointed out last night, in a national emergency, that treatment has to be available to everyone. It has to be free. But it has to
also be available because we have the facilities to do it.
So, there are two separate problems. There is a very important debate to be had about how our health care system to work moving forward. But this is a
separate issue about the capacity of our health system to deal with a crisis like this.
AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed.
And what about messaging? Obviously, you know, you were the campaign manager. You know all about this.
There's a lot of different kind of messaging. We have just said, Andrew Cuomo, the governor, called for the Army to come out. Just yesterday,
President Trump said -- quote -- "We have tremendous control of the virus."
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You have got Republican congresspeople telling people to go out with their family and eat in restaurants.
The governor of Oklahoma did that, sitting with his family in a crowded restaurant, and then he declared a state of emergency in the state.
How dangerous is it to have this kind of mixed messaging? And do you think -- have you sort of noticed maybe a change in gravitas and gravity over the
last 24 hours?
AXELROD: Yes, I mean, I think it is changing by the hour as more information comes in.
You know, this has underscored one of the great challenges we have in our democracy, and I suspect you're facing it in Britain and elsewhere. Because
of the way modern media works, you can choose your sources of information, and you can easily silo yourself into a world where you get only those
things that affirm your point of view.
The president's been very successful, with FOX News here and some of the social media outlets that support him, in really shaping the thinking of
his base.
And you see it in polling, where Republicans are far less stressed about this virus and far less willing to accept the advice of public health
experts that they should socially distance themselves from others and take these precautions.
It is dangerous. The president's impulse is to spin things in a positive way, as I said, to spin and to sell. And when he stood up yesterday, it was
almost surreal to hear him say, this -- we have a good control of this, and then he left, and -- he left the room, and then his public health experts
gave a completely different message.
And it is very, very dangerous. The one thing we know is that if people disregard the warnings that they're getting from public health, if they
don't do their part, this thing can be infinitely worse.
And then that situation that I mentioned before, where the health system kind of crashes because we don't have enough facilities to deal with
everyone being treated at once, comes into play.
So, we have these people, professional people, and people in the government here who are working hard to avoid that situation. It's very damaging when
the president of the United States and his amen corner in the right-wing media are telling people something completely different.
AMANPOUR: OK.
We have got one minute left. I will just say that his own people say he's trying to be the calmer in chief. But that's for another day and another
discussion.
AXELROD: Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you what you make of Vice President Biden fully committing to a woman, to appointing a woman as his vice president and
running mate, if he does become the nominee.
AXELROD: Well, it was smart. Last night, it commanded a lot of attention from that debate.
I think it is probably where he was heading all along. Women are such an important constituency in politics, in Democrats politics in particular.
They drove the Democratic takeover of the House in 2018. And it is time.
So, I thought it was a smart move, and not an unexpected one.
AMANPOUR: Time, indeed, David.
Thank you so much for joining us.
AXELROD: Good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And, finally, in these anxious and uncertain times, the director general of the WHO said today the name of the game must be togetherness.
And, to that end, we want to remind you and ourselves of how many moments of solidarity are also going viral.
In Madrid, under lockdown now, residents took to their balconies to cheer their overwhelmed health care workers. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It is a beautiful sound. And it was arranged through social media.
And, of course, we have seen this happen in Italy and in the United States. This balm: The Metropolitan Opera is streaming performances for free
online.
[14:55:05]
And, as the WHO chief says, this amazing infection of human solidarity must be greater than the infection of the virus.
And that is it for now. You can always catch us online, on our podcast, and across social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
END
