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Amanpour
Celebrating 75th Anniversary of the End of World War II in Europe; 14.7 Percent Unemployment Rate in U.S. Due to Coronavirus; Wartime Leaders Then and Now; Doris Kearns Goodwin, Presidential Historian, and Max Hastings, Historian and Journalist, are Interviewed About 75th Anniversary of VE Day; Katherine Jenkins on Stage at Empty Royal Albert Hall; Interview With Former Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge; Interview With Jane Goodall. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired May 08, 2020 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINSTON CHURCHILL, FMR. BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Hostilities will end officially at one minute after midnight tonight, Tuesday the 8th of May.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Celebrating 75 years since World War II's victory in Europe with prominent historians Doris Kearns Goodwin and Max Hastings reflecting on
leadership and the war against coronavirus.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE GOODALL, FOUNDER, THE JANE GOODALL INSTITUTE: I connect with people with words, with animals, it's more mind to mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Leading through science, pioneering primatologist, Jane Goodall, on what coronavirus tells us of our place in the natural world.
And later --
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TOM RIDGE, FMR. U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I mean, the president said he wants to be viewed as a wartime president. Well, you know, the
enemy is mother nature and it's COVID-19.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Former secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge, speaks with our Michel Martin about winning this war.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour working from home in London.
Today, we celebrate the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe. A fly past over London by the royal air force marked the occasion
as the French president, Emmanuel Macron, lit the flame at the tomb of the unknown soldier on an empty Champs Elysees in Paris. Indeed, there were no
crowds in the streets, no big parades, no pump, no pageantry as the whole world fights a new enemy. This time invisible. And this battle is taking
the toll in dramatic ways.
The virus keeps claiming lives and inflicting deep economic pain and hardship. The unemployment rate rose to 14.7 percent in April in the United
States. It's highest since records began in 1948, as people self-isolated and the economy comes to a halt and it is the same in so many other
countries. Presidents and prime ministers have been quick to call themselves wartime leaders. So, how are they measuring up to this
challenge?
To discuss the importance of VE Day and the lessons for today, war historian and Sunday times columnist, Max Hastings, he joins us from the
Village of Hungerford in South England and he is the author of "Inferno" an intimate look at the Second World War from the perspective of those who
experienced and fought it. And from Boston on the East Coast of the United States, presidential historian and Pulitzer prize winning author, Doris
Kearns Goodwin.
Welcome both of you.
And your last book, of course, "Leadership: in Turbulent Time," exploring what it does mean and take to be a great leader.
So, let me just ask you first both first, just quickly, to reflect on where we are today on this anniversary and the fact that it cannot be marked
perhaps as it was intended. Doris, all the way over there from the United States, I know it wasn't the end of the war for the U.S., but what does it
moon for the U.S.?
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I think what it still means is the remembrance of a time when we had two leaders, FDR and Churchill
together, who were able to end that war on this day at that time, 75 years ago, at least in Europe.
What makes me sad about it is thinking that FDR and Churchill had planned to be together for this moment and, of course, FDR died just weeks before.
There was going to be a huge celebration, a parade. He was going to the king and queen. It seems like FDR was happier that he had been in months
because his health was already undone.
So, I keep thinking about the two of them on this day, what remarkable leaders they were and that countries in both Britain and the United States
who responded magnificently to the challenge. It makes you sad because we wish we had that today.
AMANPOUR: Well, leads me to you, Max, of course, you know, the countries did respond so amazingly well and rose to this challenge. And even though
the whole war wouldn't end until the victory over Japan much later, this was a big, big deal. What do you make of the muted celebrations? I mean,
the queen speaks and there's, you know, virtual sort of joining in of various celebrations. But does it matter that the world, Europe has not
been able to mark this on a big, big scale?
MAX HASTINGS, HISTORIAN AND JOURNALIST: Of course, it matters because we are facing what is probably the most serious crisis to strike our society
since 1945. We must keep a sense of proportion but this is not the Second World War. If you look at the numbers of people who have died, thank
goodness, they're still vastly smaller than they were in the same. Well, do remember the Russians, they lost 27 million people in the Second World War.
The war went on for six years but millions of young men and women were conscripted into the services. People's lives were wrenched out of
(INAUDIBLE).
[14:05:00]
Now, whatever happens with this current crisis, I don't think, thank goodness, we're headed for a terrible economic ordeal, more serious than
anything we have seen. But this is not still a Second World War. Churchill, Churchill by 1945, he was in many ways a very unhappy man that he was very
acutely aware that the Russians were taking over Eastern Europe when after fighting a war to liberate Eastern Europe from Nazi subjection that
suddenly you find that Stalin is taking over the empire.
And it's a very little (INAUDIBLE) that in May 1945, Churchill instructed the British chiefs of staff to prepare a plan which they code named
Operation Unthinkable for 47 British and American divisions, aided, if you please, by the remains of Hitler's (INAUDIBLE), to drive the Russians out
of Poland. But, of course, needless to say, the United States wouldn't have anything to do with this crazy idea and it reflected Churchill's really
having slightly lost the plot in his rage at Russian behavior.
But he wasn't as triumphant in 1945. He did are a sense that the election might not be a walkover, the election of which he indeed lost the
premiership. So, yes, there was terrific celebration in 1945 but Churchill was in some ways one of the unhappiest men in the course of that
celebration.
AMANPOUR: That is really interesting. And Doris, you said that, you know, it reminds everybody of the phenomenal leadership that rose to the occasion
from both sides of the Atlantic at that time. And I mean, I guess you're comparing it to what's happening now. I mean, there was a real alliance
going there. Tell me, because everybody wants to know, you know, these leaders who we have today, whether it's President Trump, Prime Minister
Johnson, they portray themselves as wartime leaders. Just put that into perspective.
GOODWIN: Well, it seems to me if the definition of a wartime leader is a leader who can coordinate a national strategy, can inspire the people to
the discipline and sacrifice that are needed to follow that, can develop trust in their words, that that rhetoric of a wartime leader certainly
doesn't fit President Trump.
I mean, I think about the trust that people felt in Churchill and Roosevelt's style of speaking. Even though they were very different,
Churchill's, you know, believed so much in the British past and the British tradition, it's almost like he projected the courage on to the British
people and Roosevelt had this conversational style of speaking in his fireside chats but people believed he was talking to them individually.
There's a great story of a construction worker running home one night and his partner said, where are you going? He said, well, my president's coming
to speak to me in my living room. It's only right I'd be there to greet him when he comes. So, the fact that they were both able to speak to the people
in a national way with a national strategy, and we feel here, at least in the United States, that every state is now left on its own to make these
hugely emotionally difficult decisions of how to balance, opening up the economy and keeping the public health side strong.
HASTINGS: Of, I --
AMANPOUR: I think that is so important from both -- go ahead, Max.
HASTINGS: I agree entirely with Doris. To me, one absolutely critical measure of a leader is a willingness to tell people things they don't want
to hear. And at this stage, nobody is in a position to produce solutions either about the disease of the coronavirus or about the terrible economic
turmoil that lies ahead of us.
But if our leaders were leading, they would be starting the try to educate our people to some of the difficulties and challenges that lie ahead and to
explain some of the dilemmas. And at the moment, I don't see on either side of the Atlantic that anybody's really doing this with the possible
exception of Chancellor Merkel in Germany.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask, because I think what's another thing that's so important about World War II and what happened afterwards, was that it did
lead to massive social, political, economic change both sides of the Atlantic.
Doris, you have written a lot and spoken a lot about the GI Bill. Here, in Britain, it was the welfare state. Can I just ask you about the
opportunities that came out of this crisis? If you could just sort of tell us about that and whether you think the same might be true after
coronavirus, Doris?
GOODWIN: Well, my great hope is that when a country has been through something so damaging, so destructive, so changing in every day habits
together that they're willing to think about the changes that should have been made even before this. I mean, what the GI Bill of Rights did, as you
suggested, brought an entire generation of American, particularly working- class people, who would not have the chance of a privilege of college. It gave first home loans for these people so that they became middle class.
[14:10:00]
We had a progressive tax structure. Tax increases on the wealthy so that the change of the country's middle class was able to not be a pyramidal
structure. Women came to work in the factories. And after that, women's lives were never the same and it was a sense of civil rights during World
War II. We saw the importance of blacks in the military, and that was the beginning stage of the civil rights revolution.
So, my hope now, and this is just always wanted to be optimistic, the disproportionate numbers of African-Americans and Latinos being hurt will
make us know that that there are conditions that are unfair, that equal access to health care is not there, that we'll see the fact that lots of
people have been living paycheck to paycheck before the coronavirus. Now, many more are in the same situation, and maybe that will produce empathy
and social revolution and the desire to understand what we talked about abstractly during election, that election campaign this seems so long ago,
that's now become visceral for a lot of people.
So, you got to have a vision of the future and I'm just hoping if something comes out of that, that will be this.
HASTINGS: Churchill's great failure --
AMANPOUR: So, let me just ask you before I turn to Max -- Max, hold on just one second. Because, Doris, African-Americans, I didn't think got to
participate in the GI Bill.
GOODWIN: No, no. That's true. I just mean that they had greater opportunities in the military. And then that became the desire to continue
even the unfinished revolution that had begun in the war. And then you have Truman undoing discrimination in the military and then you have the civil
rights movement. These things are in steps, I think, and I think that was one of the steps, not enough of a step, but it was there.
AMANPOUR: So, really important. Max, I want to ask you because you also talk about how it affected not just culture but the youth and you've --
everybody, you know, is very concerned about what this does to the young people and their hope, this coronavirus, you know, down the road, which
massive 14.7 percent unemployment rate in the United States right now and it is very similar in many other parts of the country.
And in "Inferno" you talked about, you know, one of the letters that you read comes from George Biddle, he's an American combat artist and he wrote,
I wish that people at home instead of thinking of their boys in terms of football stars would think of them terms of minors trapped underground or
suffocating to death in a 10th story fire, cold, wet, hungry, home sick and frightened. You know, these were the young boys at that time because it was
boys who went off to war. What did they come back to?
HASTINGS: Well, the United States and the British experience were very different because the United States came out as overwhelming the dominant
nation in the world with half the world's total GDP whereas as Britain came out completely bankrupt. And one thing in all the celebrations today and
all the pictures we all see of everybody cheering and dancing and getting drunk in the streets in 1945.
But I've read so many diaries and letters from people of all sorts who actually weren't (INAUDIBLE) they were fearful for the future because the
young men who had fought, they'd spent most of the adult lives simply learning how to kill each other. They had no skills, they had lived always
under orders, under discipline. They have been denied personal choice. They did with rationing. The blackout. All the rest of it. And suddenly, lives
what you're used to and suddenly they were told they were going to have a completely different life and they were pretty apprehensive about what sort
of the life it was going to be.
Now, in the United States, far more opportunities were opened up because America came out of the war so politically dominant, so economically
dominant. But Britain was quite a frightened place in 1945 but it was also an absolute determination to do things differently and better, that an
awful lot of people had been very unhappy with what Britain was, a very class ridden society in which to be poor was a pretty terrible experience.
And the British people were determined to do things differently.
And I do think -- it's very early to say about this crisis, but I think this crisis is going to be so severe economically that it's going to have
social and political and economic impact for years to come and I do think that an awful lot of people are going to say, we've got to find better ways
of doing things.
So. although we're going to have a very, very tough time in the years ahead, I do think, as Doris said, I totally agree with her, that this may
be an engine for change and we better try to make sure that it's positive change.
AMANPOUR: Doris, I want to ask you because one of the great things that did come out of World War II was these -- all the mechanisms of alliances
and multilateral organizations that the United States helped lead, you know, this what they call the liberal world order which liberal free for
heaven's sake, and that seems to have been systematically denigrated, certainly under President Trump and also, you know, after Brexit and all
the rise of nationalism.
[14:15:00]
Are we seeing coronavirus and the strains it's putting and the lack of global leadership, we're seeing kind of what this denigration of
multilateral organizations is meaning right now, right?
GOODWIN: Well, maybe seeing, again, the disaster that the lack of alliances has brought will create that same engine for change that Max was
talking about to realize how important it is to re-establish them. It was really interesting. I moderated a conversation between Presidents Clinton
and Bush like the last day in February, shortly before, you know, this whole thing broke out and we were shut down and both of them talked about
the worry that alliances had been undone. The audience cheered every time they said something about it, which was an echo of what was happening under
President Trump and Brexit, even though they didn't mention the names.
There's an urgent desire to restore that sense of connection to the world so that we can work together. And maybe again -- I mean, maybe just have to
be optimistic as a historian because you look back and you see World War II ended the right way. We were able to defeat Hitler and fascism, the great
depression finally came to an end, that we've got to feel that something's going to come out of this and maybe that's yet another thing that will come
out, you know, require different leaders. But if those leaders reestablish those relationships and those alliances, the people want them. So, it's not
like we have to change a whole people's -- expect for the nationalist experience there, but you can inspire a change in that, as well, I hope.
AMANPOUR: So, that's really interesting. And Max, I mean, look, the fact that Churchill was able to bring FDR into the war, I mean, it was a whole
complicated dance to try to get the United States to join and help out, you know, and what it did to rescue the situation for the free world and now,
we are seeing that the Trump administration -- I mean, it's a self-declared thing. This is what they don't want to do, global leadership. They've
shirked that responsibility.
I think, you know, Doris calls enthusiastic leadership. This is the opposite of enthusiastic leadership. How much weaker is, at least, the free
world without strong American leadership?
HASTINGS: Shockingly weaker. And it's -- my hero among historians, Professor Michael Hyde (ph) who died last year at the age of 96, close
friend of mine. Michael often used to say to me in his later years, he said, the great lesson of my lifetime is that all difficult problems must
be addressed with partners and with alliances.
And Churchill -- one thing that drives me mad about Boris Johnson, he bangs on about trying to be Churchill but he seems to think there's something
glorious about isolation but Churchill never thought there was anything glorious about it. Churchill understood. Churchill was willing to embrace
the Russians whom most of the leading British people didn't want to have anything to do with the Russians, the Bolsheviks, the revolutionaries, but
Churchill knew that we have to work with these people. And goodness knows, we have to work with the United States.
And Churchill sometimes was driven mad by the humiliations that the United States started to flex its power in 1944, '45. And Churchill at times got
pretty fed up with FDR because FDR made plain that the United States was going to lead. But, my gosh, we all had so much to be grateful for in the
way that the United States has led through our lifetimes and we are all sobbing, quite frankly, today that the fact that the United States no
longer wants to do that.
AMANPOUR: And, Doris, to that point, you know, as I said, you speak about enthusiastic leadership that FDR embraced this really difficult role,
whether it was, you know, what happened to him during the depression all the way through to World War II, you know, talk about that kind of
characteristic where the buck really does stop on the desk of the leader and they want it, they're not trying to shirk the responsibility.
GOODWIN: No, it is really interesting. I think that willingness to assume responsibility is one of the most important characteristics of a true
leader. Even during the early days of the inauguration right after the presidency in 1933, he said in his inauguration that, I've been given the
gift of leadership and I'm going to exercise it. I'm going to take action and I'm going to treat this as if it were a war. And he couldn't wait. He
said in February to become president in March so he could have that responsibility. And I remember hearing that Churchill felt the same way
when he finally became prime minister.
That means that you're able to know that you're going to make mistakes and you're going to be judged and you have to take that responsibility and
you'll acknowledge them and you'll learn from your mistakes, you'll grow through it all. He said, I know I won't bat 1,000 but I'm going to try and
bat 300 for the team. And then if I do see what I've done wrong, hopefully I can change it.
[14:20:00]
But, you know, right now, that's the responsibly you want our president here in America the take for testing, we want the responsibility for him to
give guidance to the states about when they should reopen and not. The CDC guidelines are no longer there anymore because there almost seems like a
desire to move the responsibility unto the states and then you have a lack of coordinated response.
So, I think that is empathy and the responsibility and the willingness to take that, humility and acknowledging errors and being able to communicate
through trust. These are the qualities we have to look for the in our leaders in both countries now and in the future.
AMANPOUR: Just very quickly --
GOODWIN: That's why these guys are so great to look back on. We get examples.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Yes, you do. And actually, I think -- well, anyway, I'm not going to go back in history. But I want to ask about Lincoln because you've
talked also about the gift of language and basically, giving the facts and Lincoln's famous quote, attributed to him anyways, let the people know the
facts and the country will be safe.
And I want both of you to give me quick answers on that because there is so much misinformation and confusing information not just on social media but
from the mouths of the elected leaders, presidents and prime ministers. So, Doris?
GOODWIN: It's a fine line between giving people the brutal facts of what's happening and absolutely giving them the facts and then being able to give
them a vision of what's possible if they come together and they work under a coordinated strategy. That's the challenge of leadership and we're not
having that met right now, neither the facts nor the vision.
AMANPOUR: Max, very briefly, you know, there was facts, there was vision back in World War II. It just doesn't seem to be the case right now.
HASTINGS: The duty of a leader is to provide hope and to generate trust. And it's the loss of trust, that's the fact of confidence in our leaders
and our institutions, we have to restore respect and faith. And we have a huge problem. But if we can do it, then there are wonderful opportunities
to come out of this crisis. But at the moment, it's terribly depressing to see us so divided around the world.
AMANPOUR: Max Hastings, thank you so much. And Doris Kearns Goodwin, thank you very much indeed for your wonderful perspective.
And to mark this momentous day, the British opera star and soprano, Katherine Jenkins, is taking the stage at the Royal Albert Hall here in
London. It's her 46th appearance there, that iconic venue, but she's singing to a completely empty auditorium. As the concert hall is closed due
to COVID, it's closed for the first time in its 150-year history. But people around the world can stream the full half-hour performance of
wartime favorites on YouTube and here is a snippet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that was A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square. It was written in 1938. Jenkins also sings a virtual duet with Dame Vera Lynn of
the wartime siren song "We'll Meet Again." Poignant then and poignant now.
Now, decades of scientific research has allowed us to better understand our world and our place in it thanks to experts like my next guest, Dr. Jane
Goodall. Her pioneering work with chimpanzees revolutionized the field. And as we self-isolate, it's our very interconnection with nature that she
invites us to think about. A new documentary, "Jane Goodall: The Hope," celebrates her six decades of groundbreaking work. And she's joining us now
from her home in Bournemouth to talk about it.
Jane Goodall, welcome to the program.
I wonder what you make of the conversation, hopefully you just heard some of it, about VE Day, because I know you were a young girl then but you have
some memories of growing up in the war and VE Day, don't you?
JANE GOODALL, FOUNDER, THE JANE GOODALL INSTITUTE: Yes, I do. I was 11 when the war ended. I don't remember that too clearly. I remember very,
very clearly the day war was declared. And not that I really understood, but I was in the room with the grown-ups and the -- you know, it was Big
Ben chiming 9:00. It was the 9:00 news and the atmosphere was -- I don't know. I can still remember it. I still cannot hear Big Ben chiming without
a flashback to that terrible moment. And I remember the holocaust victims when the photos were first shown after the camps were liberated.
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And when VE Day came, I made a card in which I wrote a poem, which I don't have sadly, and I put a big V on it with cigars, which I don't know how I
got hold of them, and sent it off to Mr. Churchill who was absolutely our hero in the war.
AMANPOUR: That's just such a beautiful story. And we read, you know, while we're doing our research that you also had a pretty narrow escape. I don't
know whether you remember it, but we understand that your mother, one day during the war, was taking the longer way home from the beach back to your
home. And had she taken the normal way, it might have turned out very, very differently because -- tell -- fill in the story.
GOODALL: Yes. Well, she'd taken -- she and another friend of hers and us four children, we went for a little holiday. It was the one place along the
shore in the south of England where there wasn't barbed wire, and you could get on the sand because most places was barbed wire and scaffolding. That
was all we had to protect us from the might of the German navy.
But anyway, this place, you could actually go on the sand. And mom always took the shortcut back to the little guest house. But the other mother
sometimes went the long way around. And on this day, for the first time, mom said, I'm coming the long way. And I still vividly remember looking up,
the sky was very blue, and seeing this plane high up and looked like two cigars slowly coming down and the mothers pushed us to the ground an lay on
top of us and the explosion, and one of those bombs fell right bang where we would have been if we'd gone the normal short way back.
AMANPOUR: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Honestly, the world would be in a different place, the natural world would be in a different place
without you because you turned out to really revolutionize what people knew about primates, about chimpanzees. You saw they made tools, they used
tools. It was just a huge, huge discovery.
So, I want to know what you think right now, because you are in lockdown in your family home and you should have been traveling. You're one of the most
traveled people I know. I can't imagine how you do it, 300 or so days a year, to try to keep the attention on the famous site you have created,
Gombe in Tanzania, to keep up the study and research of chimpanzees.
Tell me how this is going to affect your work and what you think this COVID, corona's moment, will -- coronavirus moment, will do for the natural
world, the wildlife that you study.
GOODALL: OK. Well, first of all, this was going to be our big anniversary year, 60th anniversary. July 1960, I set foot on Gombe for the first time.
And we were going to do fund raising and, well, of course that's switched. But I wanted to keep up the momentum.
So, I and my JGI, Jane Goodall Institute team have been creating a virtual chain and I'm actually working harder and I get more exhausted than any
other time probably around the world giving lectures because it's constant, you know, podcasts and video messages and interviews and, oh, you name it,
I do it all day long. But --
AMANPOUR: Yes. Like right now. Well, we're glad you're doing it. We're glad you're doing it. I'm sorry. But, yes. Tell me about how COVID is going
-- I don't know, is it going to work out? Could it have a silver lining in terms of how we figure out our place, we humans, in the natural world, what
we have to potentially disrupt the natural world? Where do you think this could lead?
GOODALL: Well, the thing is that we brought this on ourselves. A pandemic like this has been predicted. We have had epidemics galore and it's because
we have disrespected the natural world and the animals who live there. And we cut down forests, animals are pushed closer together, some of them are
pushed to cooperating (ph) things in the nearby villages. This gives an opportunity for the viruses and bacteria to spill over from the animal host
to human.
And then, in addition to that, we kill them, we eat them, we traffic them. We sell them in wildlife meat markets across Asia which, by the way, most
wet markets don't sell live wild animals at all. They're more like farmer's markets. But anyway, these wildlife meat markets across Asia and the bush
meat markets in Africa create ideal environments for these viruses and bacteria to hop over, to cross the species barrier and bind with whatever
they bind with in the human to create a new disease like COVID-19 --
[14:30:00]
GOODALL: They're more like farmers markets.
But, anyway, these wildlife meat markets across Asia and the bush meat markets in Africa create ideal environments for these viruses and bacteria
to hop over, to cross the species barrier, and bind with whatever they bind with in the human to create a new disease, like COVID-19.
And we should remember it's not only the cruelty to the animals, who are sold in tiny cages, often killed on the spot, vendors and customers
contaminated with blood, urine, feces and so on, but then we have got our factory farms that we're breeding billions of animals in terrible,
horrible, crowded, unsanitary conditions.
And epidemics have started from factory farms, as well as from these wildlife markets. So we have brought this on ourselves. And people have
known about it and been telling us about it, but we prefer to go on with business as usual to make money and attain power in the short term, and not
worry about future generations or the health of the planet.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Well, I wonder whether this will actually affect the future, because, right now, for instance, today,
it happened to be on V.E. Day -- I don't know whether it was done to market -- but some 60 corporations here in the United Kingdom called on the
government to 100 percent have green economy and real priorities about the climate, about the environment, in -- written into their plan for exit.
And you have seen, Jane, how the skies are clearer, the air is clearer because we have had now two months-plus of no -- or much less air traffic,
much less traffic on the roads.
Do you think that this is a moment that could last, or do you have a little bit of cynicism about that?
GOODALL: Well, I think it depends on the different countries.
I mean, I know that China is already getting back to business as usual and has opened up a couple of coal-operated power plants. I think that
President Bush will do exactly the same. And I think...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: President Trump.
GOODALL: President Trump. What did I say? President Trump.
AMANPOUR: No, it's OK. Don't worry.
(LAUGHTER)
GOODALL: I think I said President Trump. Anyway, I meant to.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes.
GOODALL: But -- but there are millions of people, I think, from the big cities who have never breathed clean air before or looked up and seen the
stars shining in the night sky.
And they won't want to go back to the old polluted days, the pollution that's killing so many people every year. And so, although, at the moment,
I think there are too many world leaders who have swung to the far right who want to get back to business as usual, but I'm hoping there's a
groundswell of people that will grow, because we now know what the world could be like and should be like and can be like if the leaders will impose
the proper restrictions on emissions, and also if the citizens will try and make change in their lives, because we're guilty.
I fly in airplanes. We drive motor cars. We waste electricity. So, there's got to be change all around. But if there's -- if there's enough of this
feeling that we must make change, if we care about future generations, and, of course, I care passionately about the environment, then this is an
opportunity which, please, let us take advantage of.
Please, let's grow this feeling of so many people wanting change.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I fully hear what you are saying there. And I agree. I hope it's a big moment of hope.
And, actually, your new National Geographic special is called "Jane Goodall: The Hope." It's really, really hopeful and it's great.
But I want to ask you something. Quite amazing, all of these viruses that have affected us over the last decade or so came from animals to humans.
But you had an experience, in the '60s, I think, where you saw polio enter a chimpanzee troupe and practically ravage them.
How did that happen? And I think you took some pretty radical gesture to try to save the chimpanzees.
GOODALL: Well, it started in the nearby town of Kigoma, which is about 12 miles south of Gombe National Park.
And the first chimpanzees who were observed dragging limbs were down in the south of the park, where we were not doing research. We didn't know this at
the time. So, when the first chimpanzee appeared in Gombe with -- dragging both legs, I mean, it was so horrible.
I'll never forget that epidemic. I think it was 12 individuals that were affected. Some disappeared and presumably died. Two, we actually had to
euthanize because one lost the use of both arms, and the other lost the use of both legs and dislocated one arm.
[14:35:10]
There was nothing we could do. And so that also was the other way around. It came from people to animals.
And the apes are so like us. You know, we share 98.6 percent of our DNA.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Do you worry about that reverse transmission? And I was really struck by the fact that you snuck in some polio vaccine and gave it to the
chimpanzees, and you sort of disguised it for them in bananas, which saved the day, right?
Do you worry that this coronavirus or something else might affect animals?
GOODALL: We are desperately worried about the coronavirus.
We know, for example, that it's affected tigers and lions, which seems very strange things, which is less strange because they're so like us.
But the chimpanzees and all the great apes are very susceptible to these coronaviruses. They die from the virus that creates the common cold in us.
And so we're terribly worried.
We have sanctuaries for orphan chimps whose mothers were killed for the bush meat trade mostly. And, those, we can protect, because they have got a
boundary and we can keep people out.
But in the national parks or out in the forests, where there's no protection at all, there's not much we can do. We're doing the best we can.
We are keeping people out of Gombe. We're reducing the staff that normally follow the chimps to just one or two. And they just stay far away and
checking on the health of the chimps if they see them.
And they have got masks and, you know, serialized clothing, but not that much we can do. If this virus can go to baboons, which it probably can,
they go in and out of the park. So if the virus gets to the people living around the park, I don't know what's going to happen. It's a huge worry.
And for all the people doing research on apes, it is a huge worry.
AMANPOUR: Well, thank you so much for keeping our focus on it.
And your new program on National Geographic, "Jane Goodall: The Hope," is really fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us.
And we turn now to an American war veteran and former Republican governor who is strong -- who has strong words for armed protesters in some of those
states who are opposing lockdown measures across the United States.
Tom Ridge served in Vietnam. And he went on to become America's first secretary of homeland security when the department was formed right after
9/11.
And he's been speaking to our Michel Martin about the need for self- sacrifice and unity in times of crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Governor Ridge, thank you so much for joining us today.
TOM RIDGE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: My pleasure to join you. Thank you.
MARTIN: You have got a lot of attention for your -- an op-ed that you have published in "USA Today," very strong words.
You write: "The self-absorbed and selfish Americans complain they're irritated, anxious, bored, upset, unhappy that their lives have been
affected by this temporary restraint on their freedoms."
You're speaking here, of course, about some of the demonstrations that have popped up in state capitals, including your own, where sometimes heavily
armed protesters have screamed at and confronted law enforcement officers trying to sort of maintain control, many not wearing masks.
It sounds to me like this kind of was the last straw for you.
RIDGE: It was.
MARTIN: So, what is it that made you want to publish this piece?
RIDGE: Well, I actually began -- I decided just to put some thoughts down on paper, so that I could get a little personal therapy session, because it
was aggravating the daylights out of me.
And I thought, well, maybe I could express the voice of a lot of other Americans. And it was like false bravado. This is a time where self-
sacrifice is more important than any time we have had in recent American history.
The last time we had major self-sacrifice may have been World War II. We're in a different kind of war right now. It has national implications. And for
a bunch of people who I realize you're entitled under the First Amendment to protest, under the Second Amendment to carry arms.
But we don't -- if you put them together and walk in and try to intimidate nurses, doctors and policy-makers, we don't do that in this country. We
don't make policy at the point of a gun.
So I tried to give voice, not only to my feelings, but also, I think, to express the gratitude and the appreciation that we all have for the men and
women who try to keep the economy percolating along a little bit, and particularly for the health care workers that are trying to save us from
the scourge.
MARTIN: You're speaking here as a veteran, very much so as a veteran, citing your Army service and also thinking about other veterans who have
made the ultimate sacrifice.
[14:40:07]
And you talked about the -- your sort of distaste and your just taking offense at people confronting people who you say wear a different kind of
uniform, nurses and doctors. In some cases, there have been confrontations with health care workers who've said it isn't time to reopen the economy,
because the pandemic is still kind of running amuck.
RIDGE: Well, I think, first of all, one of the thoughts I had when I wrote that is my friend John McCain, and then his friend Everett Alvarez was
actually in the Hanoi Hilton longer than he was.
The prisoners were, writ large, who -- when you think about their containment for months or years at a time, now, the protesters could go
home. They got the refrigerator, they got the TV, they got the Internet, they got some things they can do. They can walk outside, put a mask on.
And, somehow, their life has been momentarily disrupted. And don't get me wrong. There are a lot of people out there under tremendous economic
stress. I don't think that's what got these folks there.
That whole notion that we're going to -- this false bravado in -- confronting a time when self-sacrifice is so important. And I thought about
the men and women who wear uniforms in harm's way. I'm proud to have worn the uniform of this country, when we understood that we're all in it
together, whether it was my little team, my squad in Vietnam, or anybody else been affiliated with any branch of the military.
When you're kind of in this -- faced with a -- confronted with a challenge, you put aside differences, collectively come together. You look out for
each other, because your goal is to get everybody through the crisis. And so that whole notion of self-sacrifice and contribution is very much a part
of the DNA of all veterans, whether they served in war or peace.
That's what they do. And that's why I take that conduct, walking around, kind of a macho-like kind of weapon, that's just -- that's not courageous.
It's not heroic. And, frankly, I find it offensive. And I think most veterans probably did as well.
MARTIN: What do you think is up with the weapons?
RIDGE: I don't know. You would probably need to get -- talk to a psychologist to understand why they felt, under these circumstances, they
should walk around with a weapon of war at their side in a democracy, and confronting policy-makers.
And there were earlier confrontations with nurses and doctors. And I'm thinking, these are the men and women in this country trying to save lives.
And, somehow, whatever brings you to confront them, you are getting in the way.
They are the first line of defense. They're the tip of the spear. And I -- when I looked at them and I said, now, wait a minute. Why don't you put
those down, put a mask on, put the garb on, and then go into a hospital full of coronavirus patients, and let me see how tough you are under those
circumstances.
MARTIN: Your piece is very much directed toward the protesters.
But I can see one name that's missing here is Donald Trump's. I mean, do you -- I mean, the president is in some ways encouraging this. And I found
it interesting that you didn't speak about it in any real way. Why is that?
RIDGE: Well, everybody knows my personal feelings. As I take a look at his brand of leadership, it's not consistent with mine.
I have found the notion that somehow he called on Americans to liberate the economy or liberate something that's a -- again, it is like a fall -- I
don't quite understand the psychology around that.
My point of view at this time was to ignore the president and his style of leadership and what he says. Just focus on those protesters and whether or
not they'd have to answer the question whether or not they responded to his, what some people thought was encouragement.
I don't think this group needed encouragement. But when the president said, there's some good people, there's nice people there, it reminded me of
Charlottesville. And I don't know anybody that is a racist or bigot who walks around trying to intimidate other people, I don't quite know the
definition of what is nice or good people.
So, the president and I probably differ on how you characterize people's actions. That's for sure.
MARTIN: Do you think these people are scared, in a way, they're frightened, and maybe this is the way they express their fear?
RIDGE: Well, I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt, because the anxiety around -- generated through the uncertainty, the uncertainty of
what tomorrow will bring, the uncertainty of whether my job will be there.
I didn't get a sense that they were there because of the economic uncertainty. I got a sense there they were trying to assert themselves in
some fashion that I just can't rationalize, can't think how anybody can conclude that that assertion, in a very physical, offensive, aggressive
way, was going to help that community, that state, or this country solve the problem and win the battle against COVID-19.
[14:45:12]
I mean, the president said he wants to be viewed as a wartime president. Well, the enemy is Mother Nature and it's COVID-19. And we need not to
remind ourselves there were three or four presidents since the beginning of the '60s that had to confront the horrors of Vietnam.
And, already, in this war, we have lost more -- there are more fatalities than there were through our engagement in Vietnam. This is a self-
sacrificing time. We're seeing most Americans adjust.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of anxiety. People want to go back to work. People at the margins, nobody's paying attention to these folks. Can you
imagine -- and I can just see it and close my eyes and walk through some communities in Pennsylvania, where I know they're not depressed
communities, but their families are hardscrabble. They're working hard.
They may have a job or two, minimum wage, slightly above, a couple of kids. They're cramped in a space. Now, all of a sudden, their the income is gone.
What's tomorrow bring for them?
They have anxieties. They're real, they're social, they're personal, they're economic. We feel for them. I don't think any of those people were
involved in the protests.
MARTIN: You know, I understand that you say that, you know, your views of President Trump are known and that you're not sure that these protesters
were necessarily taking their cues from him.
I mean, there were a lot Trump hats at this rally and his signature paraphernalia at this rally. You are one of the lions of the Republican
Party. You are not just a -- you know, you are a former governor. You are the first head of the Department of Homeland Security.
Where's the rest of your posse? Where's the rest of your crew? Where are the rest of the people who have served as you have served and why are we
not hearing their voices in the same way?
RIDGE: I would defer to my colleagues to have to explain it for themselves.
I choose not to -- I choose to speak for myself. I have to admit to be somewhat disappointed, but I'm not going to second-guess anybody's motives.
I will just publicly express my disappointment.
I think -- look, I think, you know, there will be a time and place down the road, still going to be a couple months, where we can get into the
political infighting. And, frankly, right now, it's going on both sides.
But the individual that has the bully pulpit, the loudest megaphone, the one that gets all the attention, happens to be the president. So -- but
he's got the megaphone. And what disappoints me is that some of these daily press conferences include some kind of political component.
And I just say to my president, he's my president. That is not the time for political acrimony. Now is the time to advance collective self-interest,
collective cooperation. Federal, state, Republican, Democrat, black, white, Asian, we're in this together.
And everybody is red, white and blue. So let's put the partisan politics aside. Don't use those opportunities, do anything -- again, it's a contrast
in styles.
MARTIN: If you were still serving as the governor right now, what are some of the things that you would do? I mean, the fact is, as you have noted,
many people are really suffering right now.
I mean, the lines -- you see the lines for food banks are miles-long. What would you do right now?
RIDGE: Well, I think the first thing you want to look at are those that are most vulnerable, not only from disease, but from the deprivations
caused by a lot of -- the fact a lot of people aren't working.
Kids aren't going to school. A lot of people aren't working. So, you have got to make sure that basic human needs are met. And I then think you have
to bring in your scientists and your doctors. You will have to do this based on information you have about one of our counties or regions in
Pennsylvania.
And I think I would -- again, based on that information, you begin to deal with some of the anxiety and the unrest socially and financially by laying
out an incremental plan, assuring Pennsylvanians, one, you understand and appreciate the stresses that they're under, and there are ways -- there's a
way ahead.
And so I think, if I were governor, actually, from time to time, as I look at the 50 governors, I think, by and large, they are doing a great job, in
spite of the fact they're getting a little mixed signals from D.C. from time to time.
I think you just have to be reassuring, be confident, lay out a pathway ahead, but do understand, every time you have an opportunity to talk to
your citizens, you understand the strain that they're under. And these are the things you're trying to do to finally eliminate some of that anxiety
and get them back to work.
MARTIN: Are you at all concerned about the effect of this pandemic on election security?
Primaries are going on. A number of states have had to -- or have made the decision to delay. Are you concerned about that at all?
RIDGE: No, actually, I have got a -- probably a -- not a contrarian point of view, but a very -- a different perspective.
[14:50:02]
I have often been very disappointed when I see voter turnout, local elections, primaries, 20 percent, 30 percent. I happen to think that voting
isn't a privilege. I think it's the responsibility of citizenship. That's my point of view.
Now, they don't need to postpone the elections. But I'd like to think that now is the time for people to understand, if you can't get to the polls,
it's very easy to select among leadership choices by simply requesting an absentee ballot.
And if nothing else, I'd like to think that, as you look to the November election primarily, that people who are still reluctant to go to the polls,
that all 50 governors in all these states, in the local election boroughs, will encourage people, register, register, register and vote absentee. It's
a while overdue.
And I'd love to see 80 or 90 percent participation. And what an irony would be, because of the COVID pandemic, that people finally understood, I can
vote absentee, and I need to vote absentee.
And I hope it happens that way.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, I'm going to ask you to put your Department of Homeland Security hat back on, if indeed you have ever taken it off.
What should be happening now? What are some things that you think should be taking place now to try to address this ongoing pandemic and, frankly,
prepare for the next one? Because all of our intelligence experts are saying that this is not the last.
RIDGE: Well, I think it's a wonderful question, because, while we have always focused for the past decade or two on the globalization of
transportation, and globalization of finance, and globalization and communication, this tragically becomes exhibit A for the globalization of
disease.
And -- but what we need to understand now is that this certainly won't be the first time, and this may not be the worst epidemic that we're
confronted with.
So, about six years ago, I started working with my good friend Senator Joe Lieberman. I participate in the Panel on Biodefense. And we saw back there
gaps and vulnerabilities just given the way the federal government is structured. We could anticipate that it would not be able to confront a
pandemic like this.
So we made a series of recommendations. Now, some were right, some were wrong, it's even true -- what we said then. But as we work our way through
this, we've got to go back to that and say to ourselves, OK, what do we need to do together, Republicans and Democrats, in a way to make sure that
we reduce the risk?
Because you're never going to eliminate this virus, and you're never going to eliminate these pandemics. But how do we reduce the risk of the impact,
the social, economic, and more tragically, the personal impact is substantially reduced, now that we know that disease is global, like
everything else?
There's a way ahead, once we get through this, but, for the time being, it's self-sacrifice. It's what men and women in uniform in this country
have been doing for a long, long time, looking out for each other.
And we look at America's history, when we're together, we're resilient. When we're resilient, we succeed and, normally, once we have gone through a
crisis, become a better and stronger country. That's what we could do here. But it's about self-sacrifice.
MARTIN: Governor Ridge, the former governor of Pennsylvania, the first secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Governor, Mr. Secretary,
thank you so much for speaking with us today.
(CROSSTALK)
RIDGE: And thank you for the opportunity to share these thoughts with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So interesting, better, stronger, and hopefully more human when we all emerge from this crisis.
And, finally, we wanted to talk about this effect of this coronavirus on children. So many of them are out of school, feeling lonely and feeling
anxious and scared.
So, Elmo, Cookie Monster and other Muppets have come to help. They're teaming up in a new family special called "Friends Time" on "Sesame
Street"'s Arabic show, "Ahlan Simsim." It means, "Welcome Sesame."
It's filmed remotely from the puppeteers' homes and premieres this weekend on MBC 3 and other local TV channels in the Middle East.
The Muppets are trying to guide families who are stuck at home through activities designed to help children make sense of what's happening all
around them, including managing stress and how to cope with big feelings.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
ACTOR (through translator): I feel a little better. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:55:25]
AMANPOUR: It's sweet.
And we have noticed that several leaders, mostly female leaders worldwide, have taken children's stress and anxiety seriously.
They have held special news conferences for them and delivered special messages tailored specifically to help them understand what's going on.
That's it for now. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
END
