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Amanpour
Crises in America Defining Donald Trump; Joe Biden Ahead in Polls Against Trump; "Too Much and Never Enough," a New Memoir by Mary Trump; Mary Trump, Author, "Too Much and Never Enough," is Interviewed About Trump; Interview With Author James McBride; Interview With Edward Enninful. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired August 03, 2020 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
With the economy his biggest calling card, why doesn't President Trump do more to avoid driving American families off a financial cliff? His niece,
clinical psychologist, Mary Trump, says the answers can be found in her blistering new memoir.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDWARD ENNINFUL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, BRITISH VOGUE: For this to last, people need to be behind the scenes. It's imperative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Fashion tackles racism. An exclusive interview with Edward Enninful, Vogue's first black editor, about the cover of the all-important
all black September issue.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES MCBRIDE, AUTHOR, "DEACON KING KONG": (INAUDIBLE) just because I wanted people to see the world that most people don't see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Award-winning author and musician, James McBride tells our Michel Martin about his new book "Deacon King Kong" and staying optimistic
in times of upheaval.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Crises have come to define Donald Trump's presidency, whether it's the COVID-19 pandemic that's left the United States with the highest death toll
in the world or pitting federal agents against American citizens in the midst of massive protests against racism, or indeed, the financial hardship
experienced by some 30 million Americans as they wait, and now delayed but crucial extension of the benefits boost to weather this storm.
And so far, Americans are unimpressed by the president's leadership, because his rival, Democrat Joe Biden, is ahead in the polls, including in
crucial battleground states that swept Trump into the White House in 2016. So, who is the man in the oval office, really?
Of all the books that have been written about him, my first guest tonight thinks that she is the best qualified to report from within. Mary Trump is
the president's niece and a clinical psychologist.
Her new memoir, "Too Much and Never Enough" abandons family loyalty and the code of silence for an account of the uncle she simply calls Donald. And
she joins us now from New York.
Welcome to the program, Mary Trump.
Can I ask you -- you have some incredible sort of blockbuster revelations in the book. I just want to start by going back to 2016, the day after the
election, before we even get to 2020. I was struck by a quote from yourself.
You recall waking up early on the day after the election, and you say in the book, feeling as though 62,979,636 voters had chosen to turn this
country into a macro version of my malignantly dysfunctional family.
I mean, there is a level of detail there and a level of horror in your voice. Tell us again, I guess, what you were thinking. Why?
MARY TRUMP, AUTHOR, "TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH": Yes, I actually took it really personally, which is absurd, because, you know, it's not as if those
people were voting with me in mind, but I felt that even then, there was enough information to make a somewhat informed decision, and the fact that
so many people were willing to overlook so much was quite appalling to me, honestly, and it did feel like a situation I had grown up with, in which no
matter what Donald did, my grandfather kept enabling him and promoting him and overlooking his failures and allowing him to fail upward, if you will.
So, I knew that it would be even worse because we were talking about a man who was quite an incompetent businessman, and now he was going to be the
ostensible leader of the most powerful country on the planet.
[14:05:00]
AMANPOUR: So, we're going to delve a little bit deeper into some of your revelations. But first, I just want to ask you because, you know, there's
been, obviously, criticism and pushback. The White House calls your book absurd and ridiculous.
Your uncle, Robert, who has also tried to sue on behalf of the family to prevent the book from being published, you know, talked about
mischaracterizations just for financial gain. And I'm sure you're going to answer that in a second.
But what I want to ask you, because we and everybody refers to you, as you are, a clinical psychologist. And some are saying, some in the
psychotherapist world say that, you know, a psychologist cannot have an agenda.
They're not meant to be psychoanalyzing people who they are so close with. And I just wondered if that is what you're doing, and if so, do you have
any ethical qualms or answers to that kind of criticism?
M. TRUMP: Yes. Oh, it's a perfectly relevant point to bring up. So, a few things. First of all, I am not currently practicing. I haven't been in the
field for quite a while. But that aside, even if I were a licensed, practicing psychologist, I would feel that it was my responsibility to
share what I believe is going on with a man who has so much power.
You know, there should be a duty to warn. And I don't directly diagnose Donald, but I do point out how his behaviors can be understood in the
context of what I regard as his psychopathologies.
So, what I don't understand is why more mental health professionals haven't spoken out, although some have, or why someone like the American
Psychiatric or the American Psychological Associations haven't rescinded the Goldwater rule, because the behaviors Donald exhibits are so dangerous
that we need to, as American citizens and voters, need to understand what's going on.
So, if we can delve deeply into candidates' physical well-being, I'm not sure why their psychological well-being is off limits.
AMANPOUR: Just quickly, what is the Goldwater rule for those who don't know?
M. TRUMP: Yes. Sorry about that. Back in the '60s, I think it was the American Psychiatric Association, when Goldwater was running against
Johnson? I'm sorry, I don't remember. Anyway, that mental health professionals were disallowed from speculating about candidates' potential
psychiatric illnesses or psychological disorders.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you're right, it was President Johnson or Lyndon Baines Johnson that he was running against.
Can I just -- let's just go forward for a little bit because you talk in the book, you know, something that we're interested about on this program,
we're a global news organization, we have a global audience as well as an American audience, and you talk about some of the global impact.
You talk about, for instance, you know, you feel -- you sort of talk about what many wonder why somebody like Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un have such
a kind of positive effect, it seems, on President Trump.
M. TRUMP: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And you kind of draw a direct line from Donald Trump's relationship with his father, with his famous mentor at the time, Roy Cohn,
the sort of pit bull New York lawyer, and you say that this have ramifications, you write, after the election, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un
and Mitch McConnell, all of whom bear more than a passing psychological resemblance to Fred, that's your grandfather, Donald Trump's father,
recognized in ways others should have but did not that Donald's checkered personality and his unique personality flaws make him extremely vulnerable
to manipulation by smarter, more powerful men.
Expand on that, because many have tried to figure out what is the foreign policy objective and who has what on this president. You refer to Fred,
Donald Trump's father, your grandfather.
M. TRUMP: Yes. I believe that one of the -- I'm sorry.
AMANPOUR: Go ahead.
M. TRUMP: I'm sorry, I -- there was a gap there. But it's very difficult to know what the policy agenda is, quite honestly. I don't believe Donald
has any policy agendas. His agenda seems to be whatever benefits him. And his alliances and allegiances seem to be with people who can help him, you
know, promote himself, so to speak.
[14:10:00]
So, the reason he's attracted to people like Putin and Erdogan and Kim Jong-un is because my grandfather essentially made eminently useful to more
powerful -- and he knows that he -- on people like that to help him accomplish what he needs to accomplish. At least, he knows it on some
level, because he's never been able to accomplish anything by himself.
AMANPOUR: That's really fascinating. And again, you quote now your aunt, Maryanne Trump, the oldest sister of the president, there's an anecdote in
which you write, on the -- Maryanne called -- a little sisterly advice, prepare, learn from those who know what they're doing. Stay away from
Dennis Rodman and leave his Twitter at home.
Your conclusion? Did he listen to any of those?
M. TRUMP: Not one. In fact, some of the headlines the next day were Donald saying that he doesn't need to prepare at all and he's just going to trust
his gut.
AMANPOUR: So, Mary Trump, do you feel that Maryanne was also as worried as you, he's older sister, who I believe is a judge?
M. TRUMP: Yes. She retired recently, but she was a federal judge. Yes. In fact, I think she was probably even more concerned, because she, as his --
as his sibling, knew him better than I did.
AMANPOUR: So, let's just ask what you think, I don't know if you've been in touch with Maryanne, your aunt, since the book has come out but you've
seen in the last few days this past week, the president cast, you know, a question mark tweet about the election.
Of course he was roundly, you know, pushed back by Republicans, by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, by many. But what do you think you see
trailing in the polls right now? How do you think he's taking that? And do you think there's any likelihood that he would not accept the result of the
election, win or lose?
M. TRUMP: Yes, that's a question that should be preoccupying all of us right now. But as for the -- how he's feeling about the polls, I'm -- my
guess would be that he's rejecting the validity of them because it would -- it's impossible for him to process the idea that he could be losing, you
know. So, he clearly doesn't, you know, accept that, but at the same time, on some level, he's got to know that there is a problem. Because on some
level, he knows that he's never actually won anything legitimately.
What's interesting about Donald is he knows the difference between right and wrong. On the other hand, however, he's perfectly willing to accept any
kind of help no matter how illicit or potentially illegal it might be to get him what he wants, which is why he's, all of a sudden, calling into
question the validity of mail-in voting.
He's all of a sudden claiming that the United States Post Office is, I don't know, like some kind of hostile entity that's out to get him. You
know, he will take help from hostile foreign powers, if necessary. So, that's one thing.
As for whether or not he'll accept the results of the election, I think that depends very much on two things. If Joe Biden were to win, the margin
of his victory is really important.
So, in other words, if it's an enormous margin of victory that nobody -- impossible for anybody to have cheated or what have you, then I think
Donald is much more likely, having been so narcissistically injured, to spin it away somehow and just avoid the pain of that and just claim that he
can do something more important by being on TV as a correspondent for OAN or something.
However, if it's close -- sorry.
AMANPOUR: No, go ahead. Go ahead, Mary.
M. TRUMP: If it's close, then the second factor will come in to play and that's the people surrounding him. His close inner circle of people are
there because their benefiting enormously from Donald's position in the Oval Office.
So if it's a close election, they may very well convince him for their own benefit to fight and claim that it -- that the results of the election are
illegitimate and -- and that's what worries me.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you to go back to the youth that you are exploring because obviously your own father, you know, he died in a sad and lonely
place. Many people have talked to you about that.
M. TRUMP: Yes.
AMANPOUR: He -- you know he was, you say, driven to alcoholism and -- and died alone. Donald Trump became the heir when your father, the eldest son
died.
[14:15:00]
But you talk about his childhood and you talk about how he had been close to his mother, but his mother, for a period of time, had been very ill, for
about a year, was unable to properly care for her -- him or the other kids. And that his father was --
M. TRUMP: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- not disposed to being a loving or sensitive father. And you write Fred Wood by default, because -- and he was much more likely to be a
source of fear or refection. Put -- total dependence on a caregiver who -- likely to be a source of his terror.
How much compassion do you feel for how to describe the family that he grew up in, the childhood that he experienced?
M. TRUMP: -- each other in ways they're -- to each other. So, yes. I mean, it's difficult not to have compassion for that very --
AMANPOUR: You yourself said that you felt, and I'm quoting, I have to take -- you have revealed that he huge treasure trove, I think 19 boxes of tax
records from the Trump family.
M. TRUMP: Right.
AMANPOUR: I guess what is your motive? Do you hope that this book now, this close to the election -- result of the election?
M. TRUMP: Yes. And, you know, whenever somebody repeats that quote to me, take him down, it's a little bit overstated. What I meant was, I would like
to have some measure of influence, if I can. And what I mean by that is that I feel that in 2016, voters did not have all of the information,
although they had some.
So, on November 3rd, I don't want anybody to go -- to cast their vote, no matter whom it's for, to be able to say that they don't know enough about
Donald. So, that was one of my purposes here. It's extremely important that he not get away with pretending he's something he's not.
AMANPOUR: Interesting. We've got about 30 seconds. Some Republicans have said what you said, that he needs to be beaten decisively if the country is
going to stay, you know, on an even keel and if the party is going to be able to continue.
M. TRUMP: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, I just wonder, you know, that seems to be, you know, an issue. Are you surprised that some Republicans are now coming out and
talking publicly, whether it's the Lincoln Project or others?
M. TRUMP: The only thing that surprises me is that it's taken them so long. Honestly, I wish they had been doing this since 2015.
AMANPOUR: Mary Trump, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us tonight.
Now, after the killing of George Floyd and amid the Black Lives Matter protests, many walks of life have been having their own long overdue
reckoning with racism, even the fashion industry.
Three years ago, "British Vogue" elevated Edward Enninful to editor-in- chief. It was the first time a male, gay and black person held that position. And from the beginning, he said his" Vogue" would be all about
diversity and inclusivity.
U.S. "Vogue" long-time editor and Conde Nast artistic director, Anna Wintour, sang his praises in an interview with me last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNA WINTOUR, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "VOGUE": And Edward has broken down those barriers and he's made it much more democratic. I think it's reflecting
much more the makeup of Britain, the culture of Britain.
I think he's obviously put a lot of wonderful African-American women on the cover of his magazine as well as inside in the pages, and I think that he's
very passionate about race. He's very passionate about politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, recently, Wintour has admitted to a hurtful and intolerant atmosphere at her magazine and not finding enough ways to elevate black
editors, writers or other creators.
[14:20:00]
Well, Enninful has done all of those things, including making magazine history on Friday with the all-important September issue, the first cover
to be taken by a black photographer. And we sat down here in London at "Vogue" to talk about his mission.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
AMANPOUR: Edward Enninful, welcome to the program.
EDWARD ENNINFUL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "BRITISH VOGUE": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: So, I don't really know how to describe the September issue for non-fashion devotees. I mean, it's like Wimbledon, the U.S. Open, the NBA
championship, the Super Bowl all put together, right, for the fashion industry?
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: What makes it so important?
ENNINFUL: Well, someone said September is the January of fashion. So, in our industry, you know, it's the one issue where everything comes together,
all the stories, all the editorials, all the advertisers. Really, it's our fashion week, in a sense. So, yes, the September issue is really the most
important issue of the year.
AMANPOUR: And you've done something pretty different this time. You've got Misan Harriman as your cover photographer.
ENNINFUL: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me why that's important.
ENNINFUL: Harriman is the first black photographer - sort of (ph) to photograph the cover of a September "British Vogue" issue. And the --
AMANPOUR: Ever?
ENNINFUL: Ever in the history. And worked with my fashion editor, who is also black, Donna Wallace, and a whole black team, and I think they brought
something so authentic to the whole project. And for me. it was very important that we had a black team behind this.
AMANPOUR: Because, you know, you pull out this -- I think you call it the gate?
ENNINFUL: The Gatefold.
AMANPOUR: The Gatefold.
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And it's all these amazing Black Lives Matter activists. Even Jane Elliott who is white has done so much on the history of racism and the
biology or the psychology of it. It's really incredible. You -- since you took the helm three years ago, have -- you said you were going to make a
difference and you made a difference.
ENNINFUL: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: There were virtually -- I think it was something like 12 black covers in 25 years of "Vogue" history, "British Vogue." How has it been?
How did you -- how was -- what's the reaction been, and how do you feel about being in the vanguard of this cultural shift?
ENNINFUL: I mean, I remember when I got the job, I thought, what would I want to see in "Vogue"? And it was really -- you know, I looked around, I
looked around at the people I knew, I looked around the streets of all the major cities, and I just really wanted to represent what I saw in the
magazine, which was inclusivity, diversity, you know, a place where women of all shapes, sizes, ages, colors to look and see themselves reflected.
So, that's what I really wanted to do, and the reaction has been so great from the industry, from people, from, you know, regular people to people
like yourself, and I never thought it would sort of go this well, but I'm very happy it did.
AMANPOUR: And now, I wonder if you ever imagined that you would be in the midst of this political, cultural, social movement and be, again, on the
front lines of this, because there's so much talk about change. And I just wonder whether for you it's a burden, is it an opportunity? Do you believe
that it will continue or is it a moment in time?
ENNINFUL: I mean, you know, I've always done what I've done from, you know, very on -- early on in my career. I've always sort of been about
inclusivity, really, and sort of focusing on people you can label as the other, people who have been othered. So, I just wanted to bring them into
this conversation.
And I think what's happening now in the world is a great thing because people are talking about subjects they never did before. Hard subjects, you
know, racism, unemployment, you know, climate change.
So, the magazine -- what we've been doing over the years is sort of now the perfect conversation starter, really, but it wasn't planned that way. Just
every month we try to sort of reflect what we see in the world out there.
AMANPOUR: I also find it really interesting, because during lockdown, you've had several different issues, obviously, and several different, I
guess, political or, again, cultural messages. One of them was reset. And it's about how you build back better, I guess, and how the nature and the
environment.
So, you do not just fashion and the other, but also climate and -- what was reset for you?
[14:25:00]
ENNINFUL: Reset for me was this idea of people thinking that we would go back to the world as it was before. I knew that world was gone. It was a
new day. We had to reset not just the environment, but also our minds, our perspectives. And so, for me, the word reset just meant a fresh start, you
know, let's start all over.
So, for me, personally, reset was needed, if you ask me. We were going too fast. You know, too many seasons, too many shows, too many designs, so much
waste. So, I think reset just sort of made all of us think and take a deep breath.
AMANPOUR: So, your cover features Marcus Rashford.
ENNINFUL: Marcus Rashford.
AMANPOUR: The footballer who stepped out of his zone and did something political and, again, social to help children. He forced the British
government to keep their school lunches program, right?
ENNINFUL: Yes, he did.
AMANPOUR: Because they were going to cancel it.
ENNINFUL: Yes, he did.
AMANPOUR: You've got Adwoa Aboah on the cover too. Now, she is your first cover.
ENNINFUL: My first cover girl.
AMANPOUR: And I interviewed her shortly after she was your first cover girl.
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So -- and this is important, I think, because, again, as I said, there were only 12 black models on "Vogue" covers in 25 years. So, I asked
her, does this really mean a real shift? This is what she replied.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADWOA ABOAH, MODEL: Yes, complete, as long as it's not a fad, as all as it's not a trend, and definitely with Edward it's not. He has been
advocating diversity for years and years and years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Edward, I want to ask you because you have seen so many fashion brands, corporations, everybody is rushing to join the Black Lives Matter
bandwagon. Adwoa said three years ago, as long as this is not a fad and just a moment. What does your gut tell you?
ENNINFUL: I mean, my gut feeling is, you know, when it is a moment, yes, people would jump on. But for me, I feel that we need to sort of color over
different companies. It's not just enough having black models on your Instagram feeds or, you know, in magazines because that's the norm now, but
we need education, we need people behind the scenes who can get a seat at the table. We need, you know, (inaudible) for people. We need to find
different ways of recruitment. For me, for this to last, people need to be behind the scenes. It's imperative.
AMANPOUR: Is it extraordinary for you, because you said, you know, Misan Harriman's cover had a whole black team behind him.
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: We heard a lot three years ago when Tyler Mitchell did the first cover. He was the first black photographer to photograph U.S. "Vogue" and
it was Beyonce done in a very sort of royal and amazing way. And I guess, is it extraordinary that it's taken this long to have a black photographer
do the cover? I mean, seriously?
ENNINFUL: Yes. I mean, it is extraordinary, I guess. You know, fashion is so sort of based -- trend-based and so cyclical and, you know, what's
happening now and what's cool now. But where "British Vogue" is concerned, I had Nadine Ijewere, the first black female photographer to photograph a
cover, January, two years ago.
So, for me, the conversation was natural and progressed naturally. I didn't want to wait for things to happen, to jump on the bandwagon. I feel some,
you know, companies (inaudible), and that's the fear, but the ones who are doing real work are sort of doing all these things without -- behind the
scenes and not necessarily telling the whole world about it.
AMANPOUR: So, in this edition, you have a layout, a beautiful layout, by Tyler Mitchell.
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you, because he's spoken quite a lot about what it meant and what he photographs. He's got a new book and an
exposition, an exhibit, that's titled, "I Can Make You Feel Good." And in a nutshell, as he puts it, it's the radical concept of seeing black people at
leisure. And he called it revolutionary. And to me, that seems very political. Do you think it is?
ENNINFUL: Yes. I mean, you know, we're always, you know, seeing, you know, at work, you know, sports men, and the idea -- and it's reflected in a
story he shot for us, a couple wandering around Brooklyn wearing English cheques (ph) in Brooklyn. So, I love the contrast.
But I think it is revolutionary because we're not seen as, you know, out there, you know, playing golf. You know, we're always working or we're
always, you know, protesting, and I think we need to be seen in a different light.
[14:30:00]
And people like Tyler, people like, you know, Misan really continue to show that black lives are not just one thing.
We're -- we're a varied race. We do a lot of different things. We have lots of different faces.
So, yes, it is political, in a way.
AMANPOUR: Because I -- that's interesting, because I don't know how many "Vogue" editors admit to also being political.
ENNINFUL: I mean, you know, I wouldn't even say I'm political, but I do know I believe in education. I believe in educating sort of people. And I
also believe in using my platform, whether it's my social media or the magazine, to help the world sort of understand.
AMANPOUR: Anna Wintour, she wrote about how sorry she was that there hasn't been, historically, enough inclusivity and the right working
conditions, and all the rest of it, inside and outside the cover.
Do you think she's addressed it enough? Has she put that issue to bed, so to speak? Are you happy with the culture at "Vogue" and Conde Nast in
general?
ENNINFUL: I mean, you know, I can't speak for Anna Wintour, I have to be very honest.
But all I can say is, I'm trying to do the best I can in Britain for a "British Vogue." And that means, going back to what we talked about,
recruitment, mentors. Mentoring somebody, for me, is the greatest thing you could do.
I have great mentors. So, I make sure that I mentor people, that I advocate for the young -- you know, the young.
And in -- here in this building in England, we don't take diversity lightly or inclusivity or unconscious bias or, you know, microaggressions. We
tackle this every day.
We just brought in a sort of just a diversity and inclusion officer. So I can speak for England and say, I won't stop until, one day, everyone is
equal, really.
AMANPOUR: So, you said in your "Vogue" editor's letter June: "I'm lucky to have enormous privilege in my world, but, as a man of color and as a gay
man, I could not escape the sense that it doesn't matter what you have achieved or what you have contributed to society. Your life can still feel
worthless."
And shortly a month after that, there's a very famous incident when you came into this building, and the security directed you to the loading bay.
How did you feel in that moment?
ENNINFUL: You know, to be honest with you, as a black man, it's not the first time I have been profiled, and it certainly won't be the last.
But, also, it wasn't an isolated incident. That's what I wanted to let you know. And, for me...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: You mean that it happened to you before here?
ENNINFUL: Yes. It wasn't an isolated incident, because I believe in education, to a point.
But, also, I believe...
AMANPOUR: I was going to ask you that, actually. Would it have been a teachable moment, had it been...
(CROSSTALK)
ENNINFUL: Oh, yes, it was a teachable moment, but it gets to a point where it's gone past that.
Had I been younger, I might have been so upset, I wouldn't be able to say anything. But now I can talk about it. I have got the platform to speak
about it. And I don't want this to happen to the next generation, to think it's OK for that kind of behavior.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about your route to "Vogue" from Ladbroke Grove, which is a very -- you know, actually , maybe when you were growing up, it was
very ethnically diverse, wasn't it?
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, Ladbroke Grove, Notting Hill was very, you know...
(CROSSTALK)
ENNINFUL: The most diverse.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ENNINFUL: I mean, I grew up with sort of black, white, Asian, gay, straight. For me, that was my world.
And I remember I was spotted on a train by a famous stylist to be a model. So I did that for a couple of years. And then I was introduced to a
magazine called "i-D."
But I was always surrounded by my friends. You know, for me, what I learned from growing up in Ladbroke Grove is, when we go up together, we all win.
So, I wasn't the one that had to be the only black person. I wanted my friends with me. So, I brought my friends, Pat McGrath, other hairdressers,
because, together we are one.
So, that's how I started. And then I ended up sort of working, obviously, quite -- on all these incredible stories for Franca Sozzani at "Italian
Vogue," who would literally make my dreams come true.
She would commission everything I showed her. And then I worked with American "Vogue" for a bit. And then I was creative director "W" magazine.
But through my whole journey, the message has always been one of inclusivity. It didn't -- it's not something I just started now, or even
just started at "Vogue."
My first "i-D" cover was of a beautiful black singer called Rozalla. And I was a teenager then.
So, for me, I have just sort of -- sort of honed my voice and made mistakes and learned from them to arrive here today.
AMANPOUR: And then had a louder voice the bigger the platform...
(CROSSTALK)
ENNINFUL: Exactly. Exactly.
AMANPOUR: If Anna Wintour was to retire in any way, form or fashion, would you answer the call if they asked you to edit U.S. "Vogue"?
ENNINFUL: I mean, it would be rude not to answer anyone's call.
(LAUGHTER)
[14:35:00]
ENNINFUL: But I'm very happy where I am.
AMANPOUR: You are a diplomat, Edward Enninful.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: Meghan Markle.
When you -- you were very vocal about your hope for the young generation of royals. And, of course, she guest-edited one of your issues.
ENNINFUL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And now -- now they have decided to retire from royal duties, Meghan and Harry.
What's your reaction to that?
ENNINFUL: I mean, the Meghan I know -- and we're very close -- is very intelligent. She's a great feminist. And she does what is good for her and
her soul, really.
Working with Meghan on the September issue is one of the best experiences I have had, because she's able to match you creatively, politically. And I
think whatever she's chosen to do now, whatever they have chosen, she really would have thought about it. And she will be OK.
AMANPOUR: The iconic music magazine "Q" is folding after 34 years.
ENNINFUL: That's so sad.
AMANPOUR: Do you see -- Oprah's "O" is going online exclusively.
Do you see that ever happening to "Vogue"? Or are you confident that "Vogue" can keep its paper issue?
ENNINFUL: I think "Vogue" will definitely always keep its paper issue.
It's the ultimate voice. It's the ultimate fashion bible. And the beauty of "Vogue" now is that it's not just about the beautiful shoes and the
dresses. It talks about society and what's going on -- going on out there in the world, as we are discussing.
So, I think "Vogue" will be around. But what is great now is the whole digital empire around it as well. We take that very seriously.
AMANPOUR: One last question, to wrap up, on the September issue.
If you were to say in a few words, what do you want the message of this issue at this time to be?
ENNINFUL: I want the message to be, despite the fact that we're going through probably the hardest -- one of the hardest periods in history,
despite the fact that there's racism, despite the fact that the world is not in its best place, these are people led by women.
And we know women have had a hard time over the past -- in life generally, but especially the past four months. Through COVID, women have really --
whether it's health care, employment, women have really gone through a lot.
And I love the fact that this movement, in 2020, activism is led by women. Women are resilient. And so that's what I'm most proud of.
AMANPOUR: Fantastic.
Edward Enninful, thank you very much, indeed.
ENNINFUL: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And look out later this week for my conversation with the photographer Misan Harriman, the man who made history making that cover.
We turn now, though, to another creative heavyweight. Award-winning author James McBride has built a career exploring American culture and identity
through his storytelling, starting back in 1996, with his memoir "The Color of Water" about his life as a biracial child growing up in Brooklyn. In
2015, he received the National Humanities Medal from President Obama for his lifelong work -- quote -- "humanizing the complexities of discussing
race."
His next book, "Deacon King Kong," looks at how communities pull together in the face of violence and trauma.
And here he is speaking to our Michel Martin about it from Lambertville, New Jersey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Christiane.
James McBride, thank you so much for visiting with us.
JAMES MCBRIDE, AUTHOR, "DEACON KING KONG": Nice to be here with you again.
MARTIN: Well, you switched up on us again. I mean, so, you are a musician, first of all, a very accomplished one. And then you wrote an acclaimed
memoir.
And then you have wrote a series of pieces based in history, sort of historical novels, as it were, and then short stories, now this wonderful
novel about Deacon King Kong
Without giving too much away, could you just briefly walk us through the premise of your latest book?
MCBRIDE: "Deacon King Kong" is about a deacon from -- an old deacon from a Baptist church who one day gets real drunk, and he pulls out a gun and
shoots the worst drug dealer in the neighborhood.
He doesn't kill him, but as a result of that shooting, there is a wave of activity that allows us to see the entire neighborhood in a sort of
caricature -- caricature or funny way.
MARTIN: And then things -- a lot of things happen. And then there -- police are involved. And, at some point, there's a love story there. And
it's just a very interesting thing to sort of think about.
MCBRIDE: Well, the act of -- one act of violence rings for decades and decades and decades.
And so, in this case, this act of violence, it allows us to see the entire community's reaction to that piece of business, because, ultimately, that
piece of business, it hits all the levers and gets all the elevators started.
And we get to watch him go up and down and see how the dynamics of this one act moves this whole community to act in concert, because, in those days in
New York, a housing project was like a village. And, in some ways, they still are.
[14:40:00]
They're not quite as close now because people are texting, and they can talk -- kids can talk to each other via text and so forth.
But there's still a communication that goes on. And there was a communication that went on amongst these people who were pretty normal
people, who were seen as the poor, when, in fact, most of them worked. Most of them had jobs. A lot of them worked for transit.
But, ultimately, I wrote this book because I wanted people to see the world that most people don't see and to see people that most people only see in
brief, behind the wheel of locked car or some brief news snippet or something like that, to humanize a part of the world that most people don't
know that well.
MARTIN: Do you remember the germ of this of this particular book?
MCBRIDE: It's a very good question. No.
But I run a program in my -- in the housing projects in Red Hook, where I was born. And I meet with kids every weekend, and we teach them music. I
have been doing it for seven years.
And what I learned in that time is that there's not that much that's different. I mean, the people are different. There was more of an African-
American and Puerto Rican and Dominican flavor to the projects back then. Now it's a wider -- wider range of raciality, the Chinese, Dominican,
people from Africa and so forth, from -- people from the so-called islands.
But it's the same thing, hardworking people who are misunderstood, who manage to get along, even though they're quite different. And there's some
drinking and there's some drugs. And even in my church, there's a little bit of tipping.
So, and it wasn't a germ of an idea, but what I suppose what it was, one afternoon, I was with a student of mine from NYU, and he said, "Why are you
here?"
And I said to him: "Because I love it here. I'm happier here than I am, anywhere else." And I wanted to show that in a way that people would, I
suppose, appreciate.
MARTIN: I want to ask you to tell us a bit more about Deacon King Kong, which is a nickname on top of a nickname. And his other nickname is
Sportcoat.
If you wouldn't mind just reading a little bit, and start with "Sportcoat was a walking genius."
MCBRIDE: OK.
"Sportcoat was a walking genius, a human disaster, a sod, a medical miracle and the greatest baseball umpire that the Cause Houses had ever seen. In
addition to serving as coach and founder of the All-Cause Boys baseball team. He was a wondrous handyman to the residents of the Cause Houses, the
guy you called when your cat took a dump and left a little piece of poop hooked in his duff, because Sportcoat was an old country man, and nothing
would turn him away from God's good purpose.
"Similarly, if your visiting preacher had diabetes, and weighed 450 pounds, and gorged himself with too much fat back and chicken thighs at the church
repast, and your congregation needed a man strong enough to help that tracker-trailer-sized wide body off the toilet seat and out onto the bus
back to the Bronx, so somebody could lock up the dang church and go home, why, Sportcoat was your man."
MARTIN: One of the things about this passage that I think infuses the whole book is that you're very clear-eyed about everybody's shortcomings.
But it is also infused with so much love and appreciation for perhaps qualities that other people might not see. And your grace in this book does
extend to some of the characters who are police. And one of the things that I noticed, particularly when you start introducing them at the very
beginning, is, a lot of them -- some of them are burned out.
And some of them have seen a little too much, but some of them are still really proud of the work, and they really feel like they can make a
difference.
And I was just interested in that, especially in the book coming out, as it is, in the current moment, where a lot of people are very angry about the
way the police function in this country and really want some massive changes.
And so could you just talk a little bit about that?
MCBRIDE: Well, I mean, in general, in your art and in life, you have to give people a chance to say that I made a mistake. And then -- and if you
don't do that, nothing's going to happen, other than you forcing your will on them or their forcing their will on you.
So, as a character, the police character in this book, for example, is an Irish American cop from New York. And, in a sense, this is a funny book. I
mean, if you want funny people, you can't -- you don't have to look any further than the Irish.
Now, I don't want to get Jewish people mad or black people mad, but Irish people are very funny. And this cop happens to be very funny and very
dedicated. And people like him existed and do exist.
So it's easy to cite the negative, but it's better and stronger and more forceful and it gives you a wider range of choices as a writer to work with
the positive, because no cop wakes up -- I mean, no real cop wakes up wanting to shoot somebody. No real cop wakes up saying, I'm going to kill a
black person.
And so the complexities that they have to deal with, the fact that they're often not trained for and not prepared for, is that really their fault? I
mean, I'm not -- I'm not qualified to judge.
[14:45:10]
But when you do judge, as a writer, there is no journey. So you can't judge, when -- because, when there's no judgment, there's no journey.
Without the journey, there's no story. That's not absolving some of these crooked cops from the murders they -- and the -- I have had my issues with
the police, like everyone else.
But the truth is, we remember the bad stuff they do. We rarely remember the good stuff they do. And that's -- that goes for every group.
MARTIN: The tone is hilarious, though. It's so funny, and the people are so funny.
And I guess I just wonder, is that just -- is that you? Is that how you sort of see the world? You...
MCBRIDE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You see something that other people might find terrible, and you think, well, that could be funny?
MCBRIDE: Well, yes. Yes, I guess I'm just -- I like to laugh.
But, in general, this is a community that does laugh a lot. And it's because they laugh because they're powerless to do anything about it, so
they just chuckle about it. And there's not -- what else are we going to do? You just -- you laugh and you keep moving.
And I wanted to communicate the joy that exists in an area where -- that is so often seen as neglected and poverty-stricken and pitiful and just
slobbering off of ham and cheese -- whatever the -- I just wanted to show that there's an enormous happiness that exists in this area.
Now, I'm not saying that people wake up happy, but people know how to be happy. And that was at least experience I had when I was a young man.
MARTIN: From the book, it sounds a bit -- a bit of an elegy for what has been lost, that sense of gratitude, that sense of pride and joy in seeing
something literally grow from seed.
And that is a larger metaphor for everything, a place in -- your place in the world, writ large, and just growing that from nothing and repairing
that which is broken with whatever you have. And you really get a sense from the book that there's -- you have a sense that that's broken.
So, tell me what your source of joy and optimism is about now.
MCBRIDE: Well, using -- I mean, working with that very good, very profound piece of business that you just laid forth, our young people today have no
seed to work with. We have given them nothing to work with.
They have created the seed out of air. They have seen -- I mean, many of them have never had the experiences that they're having in these past few
months. And their sense of justice, combined with their innocence, if you will, their -- I mean, we're watching the birth of a new generation that
has done something extraordinary.
They're creating something out of nothing. I mean, that's really the story. I think that's the story of our time, because these kids are out here
marching, and many of them are not black. And they are saying, we want real justice. And they are saying it in a way that -- and all the people said,
well, you can't do that, because -- they don't want to hear it.
And they're suffering for it. And this will mark them for the rest of their lives. And they will have this as part of their -- as part of their
machinery, inner machinery. And that's only going to make us a much better and much stronger place.
I'm so proud of these kids. I can't -- I just -- went all this started happening, I couldn't believe it. And I felt that -- I'm not criticizing
the coverage of it, but I just feel very proud and very hopeful, seeing that these young people have taken the business of justice upon themselves
to try to get things straight, because there are parts of this country that I never really noticed.
I never really paid attention to those Confederate statues. They never bothered me. I walked by them just like I walk past a bird's nest that had
come off the ground. I wouldn't even pay attention to it. I never -- some of this stuff never -- it never -- quote, unquote -- "bothered me."
But they are dismantling institutional racism. And that is a -- that's quite a task. That's quite impressive. That's nothing we were -- we didn't
give them much to work with. They created this themselves. They're creating their own song with their own instruments and their own music. And our best
bet is to listen quietly, like a good audience, and clap at the end, and when they say -- when they pass the bucket around, dig in our wallets, and
take out as much as we can.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: It's just interesting that this book is based in 1969. It's not like there was nothing going on back then, two years after the first series
of big, big social unrest, big uprisings in the streets in '67 and then '68.
And so '69 was -- people were still kind of like, whew, I think trying to figure out, like, what just happened and what's going to happen next.
And I wonder, like, how you see yourself in this current moment. Do you see yourself as having some specific role, particularly as an artist?
MCBRIDE: Now?
MARTIN: Yes, now.
MCBRIDE: I don't -- not really no. I never -- that's a really good question.
[14:50:01]
I have kind of -- I kind of stay out of that, because I -- there's so many people who talk about it. I'm not interested in talking about it. I'm only
interested in doing something. I only care about solutions.
I know what the problems are. I figured them out at Oberlin College back in 1975 to 2:00 in the morning. I mean, we just worked it all out. And then
the next day I got up and racism smashed me in the face like a bottle, just like it did the day before. I mean, I have been through all that.
I'm only interested in solutions. I'm only interested in doing things that help the community and that -- the people who work there, I don't want to
hear someone speak about it. I don't want to join a committee. I'm not interested in any of that stuff.
Every Saturday morning, me and my son, we get up at 5:30, at 6:00. We're out the door. We're in Red Hook. We're set up at 8:30, 8:00, and we work
all day. And we do that -- and we have done that consistently for the past seven years.
That helps me sleep at night. Is that enough? No. But I do support the causes I -- I financially support the causes I believe in. But, no, I'm not
one of these writers, because I'm not interested in telling white people what they did wrong. Racism is not my problem. It's their problem.
I remember, Kurt Vonnegut, I did a reading with him once. And a lady raised her hand, and she said: "Why aren't you writers stopping -- writing against
the war in Iraq? You are writers. You need to" -- and he said something I'll never forget.
He said: "Miss, we're not -- that we're not that powerful. If you don't want to believe what we write, you're just not going to believe it. So
there's only so much we can do."
And I feel that way as well.
MARTIN: Of course, for people who've read your memoir, "The Color of Water," your -- which is now a classic -- I mean, it's -- I feel
comfortable in saying it's this incredible story.
Your mother, who raised you in an African-American neighborhood -- your dad died when, sadly, she was pregnant with you. She raised first seven
children, then another five. And you later on understood that she is -- is, was white. You didn't really notice that at the time or think about it at
the time.
And for some reason, it just made me wonder -- it just -- for some reason, I'm just saying, when you brought her up, it -- I was thinking about her
myself. I'm not sure why that is. But do you ever wonder what she would have said about what's going on right now?
MCBRIDE: Well, she would have said -- if she was living, she'd say -- she would say, make sure you stay out of it. That's what she was...
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MCBRIDE: Don't you go and -- but I think she would be pleased to see that some of the things that -- see some of the things that I mentioned earlier.
Am I surprised to see these Confederate statues coming down and this -- so, this business of institutional racism being addressed. I think she would be
pleased to see that happen.
On the other hand, she always felt that the whole business of racism and white people's racism would never change, because she had grown up in the
South. And so she -- that's why she didn't raise us as mixed children, she was pretty clear that you're going to be seen as black. And you better --
you better just get yourself together.
There was no excuses of being -- you came from school with bad grades, she didn't want to hear that. It just wasn't accepted. So I think she would be
pleasantly surprised.
And she went through her own metamorphosis as the book came out and she began to meet her family. She met her sister and so forth. So, she began to
evolve into a fuller person, as she grew older. But I think she would be ultimately pleased.
I mean, I -- my life has unfolded so much in the last 10 years since she died, that I really -- I have a hard time remembering her. Like, I
sometimes think, this really didn't happen? Did she -- was that my mother?
Because she seems so distant now. And some people have -- like, my sisters dream about her. I very rarely -- once in a while, I dream about her. But I
will tell you this. When I walk into the church in Brooklyn every weekend, I feel her spirit fully, all in that little tiny building.
MARTIN: I have observed that many of the young people, maybe not just young people, but I feel that there's a sense of despair right now in this
in this country.
I feel -- well, first of all, people's objective circumstances, many of them are very difficult right now. We have tens of millions of people who
are unemployed at the moment. We have people who are very fearful of illness. They are -- we are currently in the middle of this global
pandemic.
So, I guess what I'm just asking you is, as a person who meets the world in sort of an optimistic way, do you have some words of hope for people right
now who are afraid?
MCBRIDE: Well, one of the things that you have to learn to do when you get older is, you have to learn to appreciate everybody where they are.
[14:55:00]
Even if you don't like them personally or politically, you have to try to appreciate them with where they are.
So, I would urge people to remember that these war -- these are the war stories you will tell when you're an old man or an old woman or an old
person. And you just have to just -- don't take it too seriously. It will change. Just have a good time as much as you can. as long as you're not
starving.
I know some people are struggling now, but it will change, and you just have to stick in there. It's all right. It'll be -- it will be all right.
You just have to keep to the sunny side of the street a little bit and know that, just in a short time, things are going to get better.
MARTIN: James McBride, thank you so much for talking to us.
MCBRIDE: Well, thank you. Delighted to see you, finally.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, and, finally we give thanks and remember the peacemakers.
Northern Ireland politician John Hume has died at the age of 83. He was a Catholic and an Irish nationalist who believed deeply in unity, and helped
negotiate a solution to a fair and just end to the civil war.
Hume was a driving force behind the 1998 American and British-sponsored Good Friday peace agreement that brought an end to British rule over the
territory and an end to three decades that were euphemistically called The Troubles.
In 1998, John Hume was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, along with Protestant leader David Trimble.
And that is it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
END
