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Amanpour
COVID-19 Cases Rising in Europe and in United States; Day 3 of Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court Hearing; Interview With Sen. Carol Moseley Braun (D-IL); 100,000 New COVID Cases Per Day; Interview With Dr. Hans Kluge, W.H.O., Regional Director for Europe; Better Sleep Enhances Body Resistance Against Pandemic; Interview With Matthew Walker, Professor of Neuroscience at UC Berkeley; Closing Racial Equality Gaps. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 14, 2020 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Republicans are scrambling to confirm this nominee as fast as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: From judge to justice. We asked what could Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court mean for health care of millions of Americans?
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: We're now seeing an increase in the number of reported cases of COVID-19.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The World Health Organization tracks a troubling second wave. Its Europe director, Hans Kluge, tells us why he thinks lockdowns should be
a last resort.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW WALKER, PROFESSOR OF NEUROSCIENCE AT UC BERKELEY: There's a simple truth. The shorter your sleep, the shorter your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The ABCs of catching some Zs. Sleep scientist, Matthew Walker, joins us with tips on how to get a better snooze in today's topsy-turvy
world.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK MORIAL, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: I think we're at an infliction moment in American history where we've got important decisions
to make.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Saving our cities. Former New Orleans' mayor, Mark Morial, talks to our Walter Isaacson about the impact of COVID and how best to rebuild.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
And it's official, COVID cases are rising in Europe and hospitals are filling up again at record levels and so, too, in the United States where
today Supreme Court nominee, Amy Coney Barrett, faced her third day of questioning. Democrats who have a near zero chance of blocking her
appointment are using their time to focus on what they say is at stake, and high on that list, of course, is health care for tens of millions of
Americans. Indeed, that issue will come before the court just days after the election and amid this COVID resurgence.
On the day, 52,000 new cases were reported in the U.S., President Trump kept trying to paint a rosy picture of a virus on the wane, while his
challenger, Joe Biden, ahead in the polls, paints a more realistic portrait with no vaccine yet, he says, serious leadership is required to once again
flatten the curve.
Former Illinois senator, Carol Moseley Braun, sat on the Senate Judiciary Committee during the hearings for Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer.
She also once ran for president. And she's joining us now from Chicago.
Senator, welcome back to the program.
You just heard all these stats. It's a big, big problem around the world, and, of course, in the U.S. as well. 9,000 deaths recently in your own home
state of Illinois. How are you seeing officials cope with this, individuals coping with this? What's the state on the ground so to speak?
SEN. CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D-IL): Well, on the ground, people are trying to make due the best they can. This president has been so reckless, 216,000
dead Americans on his watch for no good reason. Had he acted sooner, had he acted more coherently, had he not been as reckless and as irresponsible as
he's been, you know, a lot of those people would still be with us. And so, I think there's a sense now of hunkering down and resignation to the fact
that this virus is not likely to go away any time soon, no matter what the president is saying. Even the vaccine is kind of, you know, is not going to
help those 216,000 people or their families.
And so, I think the people are more concerned really about what's their own personal lives and what's going on with their bank accounts, with their
jobs and with the realities and the everyday aspects of living than they are all the histrionics around. And he's having rallies even, super
spreader events all over the country and just making things worse. So, I just don't -- I think that -- if you think about it, Christiane, this is
kind of the replay of what George Bush did when Thurgood Marshall died. Bush's move was to replace him with Clarence Thomas, and that's the same
thing that Donald Trump is doing with Amy Coney Barrett, is replacing Ruth Bader Ginsburg with this woman, this very distinguished jurist.
I mean, she's -- you know, she's no short -- she's no slouch as a law- maker, but she's absolutely the polar opposite of what RGB stood for and her politics and the like, and I think that's what Donald Trump wants. And,
again, the super spreader event at the White House. He is impervious to the fact that he's walking around infecting and killing people.
[14:05:00]
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you because you bring up, you know, the similarities between the two replacements, as you mentioned Clarence Thomas
and Amy Coney Barrett and yet, their politics are so different from who they are replacing.
Now, about health care, you know, as I said, there's going to be an issue on Obamacare come before the court right after the election. Right now,
there is, you know, many, many Americans' health care is at stake if any elements of that get struck down, and she's been asked about this over and
again on the -- you know, during these days of questioning, and, you know, she -- in 2017, she criticized the Supreme Court ruling on Obamacare,
remember when Chief Justice Roberts, she said, push the Affordable Care Act beyond its plausible meaning to save the statute.
And yet, in these hearings she's not coming across as hostile to the Affordable Care Act. Let's just play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMY CONEY BARRETT, U.S. SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I am standing before the committee today saying that I have of the integrity to act consistently
with my oath and apply the law as the law, to approach the ACA and every other statute without bias, and I've not made any commitments or deals or
anything like that. I'm not here on a mission to destroy the Affordable Care Act. I'm just here to apply the law and adhere to the rule of law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you've been on these committees. You've asked questions before. What do you make of that answer and the fact that she hasn't
actually answered a lot of the direct questions that are being put to her?
BRAUN: She's very clever and she's not. She's flipped around and refused to answer questions on important matters like stare decisis, the current --
you know, the law that went before and she's dodged them artfully. The problem, of course, is that these things -- these are the kinds of things
that the American people are very concerned about.
If COVID becomes a pre-existing condition, and that's something in the hands of the insurance companies, and there's no -- nothing in the statute
frankly that specifically says that you can't make COVID a pre-existing condition, then 110 -- there are roughly -- over 100,000 Americans will
lose their health care coverage, and if you do that in the context of health care costs in this country, it's so expensive here.
I just had a minor health issue myself, and the bill for a procedure that I almost could have performed myself was $16,000. So, it's a lot of money
involved. And what you're going to find is 100,000 people are now shaking in their boots that they might not be able to get health insurance for
anything because they had a brush with COVID. And, again, this is -- of the people who caught the disease in this country, 216,000 of them are no
longer with us.
So, they don't have to worry about health care or anything else for that matter, but the fact that this judicial nominee won't answer a straight
question about it directly is to me inexcusable. But as you said in the beginning, at the top of this program, the Democrats have no way really at
this point to stop it.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you because, you know, when you ran for president, one of your signature platform issues was single-payer health
care, et cetera. And right now, as you mentioned, President Trump is still trying to hold rallies such as they are and Vice President Biden is doing
it in a very different way. He's got smaller one-on-one meetings. He has more, you know, intimate conversations with voters.
And, of course, for Biden he's always said and everybody says about him, empathy is his calling card. And we have seen today and over the last
couple of days literally lines snaking around outside polling places where early voting has started in person, and this is in full COVID resurgence.
Talk to me a little bit about that.
BRAUN: Well, you know, again, I'm very much supporting Joe Biden, and I hope he gets the presidency, but that's a difficult situation here in this
country, and elections, as you know, have uncertain outcomes. You have to get past the electoral college to get elected president here in the United
States. It's not at direct election by the voters.
And so -- and I'm sure everybody is looking at the numbers and where the votes are in order to come up with the calculation as to whether or not he
gets to 270 electoral college votes. I'm praying that he will. I hope he does. I light candles and all of that, but the fact is, elections have
uncertain outcomes and it's not over until it's over.
[14:10:00]
So, I'm hoping that Joe Biden -- and Joe Biden has taken a much more reasoned and measured approach in talking to the voters in this time of
COVID. He's been responsible. He's been -- showed leadership, which is what he's always done, and that's one of the reasons I'm supporting him because
this is a man of great intellect and great intelligence. And who cares about people? It's not just about him had. He cares about the country. He
cares about individuals who live in it.
Our current president -- the current occupant of the White House cares about neither of those things. It's all about him. And he, right now, is on
a magical mystery tour entertaining people. I mean, that's what's going on, and it's just shocking.
AMANPOUR: So, what do you think because -- I mean, there are record numbers, numbers such as nearly 13 million people, according to reports,
and yet, in Georgia, places like that, they are spending more than 10 hours in line and the secretary of state there says there are technical problems.
Is that -- is it encouraging to you to see these long lines of voters? And the flip side of that, are you worried about what everybody was worried
about, that there would be, you know, difficulties for voters in many parts of the country?
BRAUN: I think the voters are responding to the urgency of the time. I mean, people know -- I mean, those 216,000 people who died, you know, have
families. And so, there are people out here who know the reality no matter all the jibber-jabber coming out of the White House, they know what's
actually going on on the ground and they are getting out to vote.
We're hoping that those votes actually get counted. In California, you may have heard about the case where they put up a safe ballot box for people to
deposit their ballot. Happily, it was caught, they were found out. And so, that's not going to happen. And in other parts of the country, there's are
all kinds of voter suppression efforts going on, not to mention the gerrymandering which had happened before. So, we've got all these problems
in terms of our electoral system that I'm hoping we get a new president, that Joe Biden goes in with a Senate majority and is able to fix a lot of
these things with the way our elections happen in this country, including abolishing the electoral college, which, frankly, for the constitutional
scholars out there, is a holdover for having to -- it was a compromise that came -- had to do with slavery. And hopefully, that will be one of the
things that goes when we have a new administration, I hope so.
AMANPOUR: Finally, you know, in many of these places, let's say Florida, President Trump won last time, and, you know, there's quite an older
demographic down in Florida. Both candidates are over 70 themselves. Both are courting the elderly vote, obviously, and COVID has hit them really
hard. What are you seeing where that vote is falling down?
BRAUN: Well, it's hard to know because, again, you know, I'm over 70. So, some of us are vital and vigorous and engaged. Others are really in their
dotage. But you're right, both candidates are trying to get the elderly votes and they are also trying to get the kids. I mean, I saw an ad on
video games, which I think is wonderful.
So, you know, the candidates are right now -- and because we're less than a month out from the election date, and so, everybody is trying to scrounge
whatever votes they can get wherever they can get them. And the question is, will people be able to vote? I think this early voting is showing that
they are determined to do that, and will those votes be protected and counted, and that challenge is still before us.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's really great to have you on, Senator Carol Moseley Braun, a very, very vigorous over 70. Thank you for being with us tonight.
Now, over to Europe where as a polish immunologist says, "we are on brink of disaster." COVID is raging through the continent again with some 100,000
cases per day, prompting new restrictions by governments from Paris to Prague. The World Health Organization's Europe director, Hans Kluge is
deeply concerned about this second wave, but he says another round of national lockdowns should only be a last resort because of damage to mental
health, to schools, to the economy and much more.
Here to explain is Hans Kluge. Thank you for joining us from Copenhagen.
I see you have your mask on, and that's fine. That's good. I want to ask you then what you think governments should do because many, many citizens
have not obeyed the -- not the law but the suggestion to wear masks, to socially distance, and now, we're on the brink of yet more -- much more
severe restrictions.
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DR. HANS KLUGE, W.H.O., REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR EUROPE: Right indeed. This are pandemic times in Europe, no doubt, but it doesn't mean this are dark
times. We see that a number of daily cases increased two to three times higher than in the peak in April. However, the deaths are still five times
lower and the doubling time in hospitalizations is also two to three times lower.
So, what we see basically is a steeper curve but the slope is slower. So, in that sense, we know what has to be done. A proportionate targeted
response by the government and by the people to take the window of opportunity because, is there reason for panic be? No. Is there reason for
concern? Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's really interesting because it looks like several governments are panicking. There are all sorts of, you know, this country
has gone into a three-tier system, you know, kind of red, yellow, green. They are talking about, you know, increasingly difficult lockdowns.
What should they be doing then? If you say don't panic and the good news you say is the deaths are not as spiking as they were before. I mean, if
you look at Paris, for instance, they say 90 percent of their intensive care beds will be filled by the end of next week. So, what should a country
like France or Britain or others that are reporting spikes be doing right now?
KLUGE: Right. Absolutely, Christiane. Of course, I'm speaking of a European perspective, 53 countries. So, the top highest countries, I mean,
absolutely. All hands-on board. We still see that the transmission is particularly in younger age cohorts, but what we have to avoid is that it's
spreading to the elderly age group because then mortality will spike very quickly. It has to be in a stepwise approach. And countries which are far
off, of course, have to go for a much more stricter package, and this can go from daily working to absolutely, I will advocate for systematic and
general mask-wearing, strict control on social gatherings.
We know that with general mask wearing, both public and private, and strict control in social gatherings, we will be able to save 300,000 lives in six
months in the 53 European countries.
AMANPOUR: So, I mean, again, those are huge and really interesting numbers that you talk about. Now, here, as you know, SAGE, the scientific
organization that advises the government, has said, and you've seen this leaked document, I wonder what you make of it, at the end of last month,
not so long ago, they recommended a short couple of weeks circuit breaker, a lockdown which they said could save -- I mean, they were very precise,
reduce the expected number of deaths by the end of the year from 19,000 to 12,000, very precise. So, is this the kind of last resort that you would
agree should be a national lockdown or not?
KLUGE: Well, a national lockdown in any case should be really a last resort. Why? Number one. We know much more than in March. Several countries
expanded their test, track, trace, isolation capacity, and if a national lockdown would be considered by the politicians, then we cannot base it
only on the corona figures. We have to look at what I call the collateral damage. The mental health, domestic, sexual violence. We need to have data,
the schools, the children with special needs who cannot benefit from daily modes of teaching. And very important, the microeconomic consequences,
people with job losses insecurity because it has one thing that we learned from the corona crisis is it is hitting disproportionately the vulnerable.
And finally, what I call the duel track health system capacity that we no longer only focus on COVID, corona, but also on the other pandemics of
cardio vascular diseases, still the number one killer, cancer screening, et cetera. So, all these ones we are now working on a dashboard for the
countries and to shape coherence in policy across the region.
AMANPOUR: What about the idea that, you know, these governments were meant to have used the time during lockdown to ramp up all the things that they
need to do, whether it's test and trace and isolate, whether it's, you know, getting enough, you know, beds and ICU capacity and all the things,
PPE, all the things that was lacking at the beginning.
It looks like test and trace and isolate certainly here, in the U.K. and even in the United States and elsewhere presumably, has just not been
ramped are up. It just hasn't happened. I wonder how crucial that still remains, do you think today, or are you looking at a different evolution of
the virus that some other methods need to be taken? I mean, some people say the numbers are so huge that you can't even really make a dent with test,
trace and isolate right now.
[14:20:00]
KLUGE: Well, the good and the bad news, Christiane, is that the virus hasn't changed. It's not worse but also not less. So, whether it is a short
(INAUDIBLE) or not lockdown, the absolute important thing is to take the time to beef up your test, track, trace isolation capacity and, in fact,
look from a European perspective, it's crystal clear, where the policy response was immediate and drastic, the effects were very positive. But in
countries where there was data information, denial or partisanship, the virus has been merciless. So, the coroners (ph) from good public health
still remains.
AMANPOUR: Where do you see governments doing it right?
KLUGE: Well, that's a question that is being asked and also the opposite. They are not doing it right. I would say every single country have done
things right and could improve things, and the same for international organization. I prefer to look forward. What is very crucial now is empathy
and social dialogue.
In many countries, people are sick and tired of restrictive measures. So, that's why it's not only virologists, physiologist (ph) with sociologists,
anthropologist and have the figure on the polls, what is the community thinking, engage the community. Like here in Denmark, the students were
being asked to shape the environment and universities in order to keep them open and find different ways of being socially active and be happy.
Floating cinemas, (INAUDIBLE), people are innovative and we have to believe in our people and be positive.
AMANPOUR: I guess I just want to ask you one more question on that because this pandemic fatigue is really settling in, and the young people,
certainly the university age young people, are having a hard time of this. On the one and they are being blamed. On the other hand, yes, cases may be
going up, but the hospitalizations, the deaths are significant compared to in other demographics.
What should they be -- what should be done for them? I mean, can big bubbles be created around, I don't know, universities and the entertainment
that they need? What do you think given what you say, you know, governments should take the pulse of the people and try to engage people, not just in
modeling and in, you know, being responsible, but also trying to figure out how to temper the lockdowns and the restrictions?
KLUGE: Right. The social dialogue, the empathy is crucial. So, we have to get away from the phrasing like don't do to phrasing do it different and
finding new ways to get it with champions from within the community, and that can be different. That can be a sportsman or a sportswoman or a famous
singer, but someone which appeals to the community and not one size fits all, but we have made a companion of 27 European countries and it's amazing
how the communities can be innovative and ultimately, it's only a minority of society which is really against them. Even then, we have to try to
understand what is it that impedes the people to adhere to the measures?
AMANPOUR: So, you say people and governments have to get their public on board, but let's just repeat because here, let's say, in Northern Ireland,
for instance, Belfast and Liverpool, are saying that their situation is almost worse than the first wave. Liverpool, which has a very bad outbreak
right now, 95 percent of the city's ICU beds are already full, and as yet, of course, as you know, there are no widely used therapeutics and no
vaccine. In fact, we heard from an Oxford, you know, one of the scientific groups trying to develop a vaccine that we're probably going to have to be
wearing masks until next summer, and the vaccine is still a good way off on the horizon. What do you know about that?
KLUGE: Well, first and foremost, U.K., Northern Ireland has excellent experts and we're communicating regularly. I think it's very important to
find the coherence and a common language between science, policy and politics, that this is one coherent voice. We also know that in a couple of
weeks that it's improvement in whatever situation. It is never too late, but, of course, the situation you are citing is very serious, absolutely,
and then we have to go through, our country has to decide to go through the other spectrum, the other side of the spectrum of restrictive measures.
[14:25:00]
Again, in a targeted, proportionate way with a national lockdown as our last resort. And measuring and monitoring because now, we also see in
several countries, there is economic support, social economic support but it's generalized. Are we sure that we're helping really the vulnerable
people who are at loss with their job? Are we targeting the 55 percent of youngsters we know are anxious because there is a feeling of not belonging
to the bigger community? So, our data have to drive the policy decisions.
AMANPOUR: Fascinating. Thank you for the update, Hans Kluge of the W.H.O.
Now, one overlooked tool in the fight against this pandemic could be the way we sleep. For decades science has shown the important role that it
plays in bolstering our immune systems against colds and respiratory infections and the like, making rest more essential now than ever. Studies
though suggest the pandemic has changed most people's sleep cycles, both for better and for worse.
Matthew Walker is the author of "Why We Sleep" and he's professor of neuroscience at UC Berkeley and he's joining me now to offer some tips,
hopefully, on how to get a better night's slumber.
Welcome back to the program, Matthew Walker.
MATTHEW WALKER, PROFESSOR OF NEUROSCIENCE AT UC BERKELEY: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: When we last spoke, it was way before this pandemic. Let me go straight to the scientific aspect of this and what you've been writing and
talking about, that sleep, particularly now in a situation like this, could be a major game-changer, an enhancer for people's own bodily resistance.
Tell me about that.
WALKER: Yes. So, there's a very intimate association between your sleep health and your immune health, and I'll just give you three relevant
examples for the context we find ourselves in now. First, we know that individuals who are sleeping less than seven hours are three times more
likely to become infected by the rhinovirus or the common cold. Second, we know that individuals who are sleeping five hours or less a night are
actually 70 percent more likely to contract pneumonia, which is a critical component in the COVID equation.
And finally, what we know is that if you're not getting sufficient sleep in the week before you get your flu shot, you only produce 50 percent or less
than 50 percent of the normal antibody response. Therefore, rendering that vaccination significantly less effective. So, I think what this tells us,
firstly, is that sleep will restock the weaponry in your immune arsenal, and we know how sleep does this. Sleep actually stimulates the production
of immune factors, but it also sensitizes your body to those immune responses.
So, when you wake up the next morning, you are a much more immune robust individual. So, you can think of sleep almost like the best health
insurance policy in that regard. But then you mentioned just in the --
AMANPOUR: You can go back to that. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. I just want to ask you and pick up on what you said about a vaccine, that if
you don't get good sleep, I think you said five days before your cold flu or rather your flu shot, it's not likely to work as effectively. Would that
be -- can you transpose that to the COVID vaccine when and if it comes?
WALKER: Yes. That's exactly what I was just going to link to. And, you know, you mentioned in the last segment that perhaps it could be the summer
or even further away, but we will have a vaccine or several vaccines for COVID in the future. The question critically for scientists like myself is
that we then need to study is there that same relationship between sleep and your successful COVID immunization. Because if there is, then that
could also be a game-changer, as you mentioned.
Could we track people's sleep? Could we estimate it and say, look, I know you've got an appointment coming this week, it looks as though your sleep
hasn't quite been there yet. Let me give you three options for next week. Let's try to correct your sleep and in that way, we're not firstly wasting
critical COVID vaccine dispensation, and secondly, we're trying to successfully increase the likelihood that you're going to be healthy during
subsequent COVID attacks.
AMANPOUR: So, let me just read some stats because it's about, you know, stress and mental health. This is from the Kaiser Family Foundation, 52
percent of Americans stress related to the coronavirus outbreak has had adverse effects on their mental health, of course. 36 percent reported
difficulty sleeping this summer due to stress about the pandemic.
WALKER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, in a nutshell, what is your studies -- what have they shown regarding this massively needed ingredient called sleep under this --
[14:30:00]
[14:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Fifty-two percent of Americans' stress related to the coronavirus outbreak has had adverse effects on their mental health, of
course; 36 percent reported difficulty sleeping this summer due to stress about the pandemic.
MATTHEW WALKER, AUTHOR, "WHY WE SLEEP": Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, in a nutshell, what have your studies, what have they shown regarding this massively needed ingredient called sleep under this most
stressful situation that we're all living through?
WALKER: Yes, this sort of Swiss army knife of health has undergone quite a strange change during COVID.
I think we have got two different things going on here. First is the amount of sleep that we're getting. Secondly is the timing of our sleep.
Firstly, let me speak about the amount. What we have learned is that, on average, actually, people are getting about 15 minutes to 20 minutes more
sleep overall. However, that's the average. hand if you start to look at some of the data, there are actually two clouds of data.
One cloud where people are getting more sleep, and we can speak about why that is, but there's a second cloud of sleep is significantly worse,
particularly the quality of sleep. And I think it's exactly for the reasons that you have described.
Firstly, some people have lost their jobs. Secondly, people are fearful of their jobs, if they still have them. And, third, there's just this greater
overall anxiety regarding this desperate pandemic and the consequences.
You also mentioned social isolation and loneliness in the last segment. That has a huge impact on our sleep. So, I think the amount of sleep has
been changing, and it's different for different people.
But the second thing that's interesting is timing, that what we're finding is that, on average, people are going to bed a little bit later and waking
up later. And what this tells us is how, before COVID, modernity had dislocated us from our natural sleep tendencies.
And when we have greater flexibility -- for example, we don't always have to commute to work, we don't have to get the kids awake earlier to get them
to school, and then we have to commute -- if there's flexibility people start to drift closer to their natural tendencies, what we call their
chronotype.
But, overall, I think this mental health epidemic that we've seen, ramped up by COVID, and amped by COVID, is having a marked impact on our sleep
quantity and quality.
AMANPOUR: And that has led to a whole 'nother thing, the COVID-somnia, so to speak. This, again, is another U.S. report. Express Scripts, which is a
pharmaceutical company, has reported between February and March the number of prescriptions filled for people who can't sleep has increased by 14.8
percent between February and March of this year.
So, last year, when we talked, you told me that prescription drugs for sleep don't actually -- they don't give you a healthy sleep. They just
interrupt whatever pattern you're in, but that doesn't mean to say they make you a healthy, refreshed, immuno -- waker-upper, so to speak.
WALKER: So, I think there's always a time and place for sleep medications during acute conditions.
But right now, as a field, it's not recommended for long-term use, sleeping pills, for the reasons that we discussed in our previous interview.
There is an alternative form of therapy that's just as effective. It's called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, or CBTI, and people can
explore this. It's got different availability in different countries.
That's a far better tool in terms of a non-pharmacological approach for improving the quantity and the quality of your sleep. And, better still,
when you stop working with that sort of therapist or that clinician -- and it takes usually about four or five weeks -- you continue your good sleep
for years into the future, whereas, with those drugs, once you have stopped them, not only do you go back to the bad sleep that you were having, but,
typically, you go back to having even worse sleep.
It's called rebound insomnia, when you come off those sleeping medications. So I think there is a time and a place, and you can speak to your doctor,
but you're to try to seek out cognitive behavioral therapy.
And there's lots of digital online platforms right now. One that I'm involved and involved with is called Shuni, S-H-U-N-I. And there are other
programs where you can go online, and you can get these therapies available to you in your home wherever you are in the world.
AMANPOUR: Beyond those therapies, are there any quick tips that you would advise for people trying to have quality and quantity of sleep?
WALKER: There are.
I think the first two tips are regularity. Try to go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. Even if that's shifted during COVID, now
it's shifted, keep it there. Your body responds to regularity for sleep, and it will improve the quantity and the quality of sleep.
[14:35:11]
The second is alcohol and caffeine. Try to abstain from caffeine after 2:00 p.m., if you can do it. After midday is even better. And then be mindful of
your alcohol in the evening. Many people will turn to alcohol as the first sort of non-prescription sleep aid. And alcohol is not a sleep aid.
It's remarkably bad for your sleep. It sedates you. It doesn't put you to sleep. It will fragment your sleep. And it will block your dream sleep,
which we know is critical for variety of mental health functional benefits.
I think the third and last thing I would say during this era is, if you're in bed, and you're struggling, and sleep is just not coming to you, either
you're falling asleep, or you have woken up and you can't get back to sleep, then just take a break.
It's OK to know that tonight is not my night, because sleep is a little bit like trying to remember someone's name. You know, the harder you try, the
further you push it away from you. And so the recommendation is, if you're struggling, get out of bed, do something relaxing, read a book, do
meditation, listen to a podcast, and only return to bed when you're sleepy.
And the analogy here would be, you would never sit at a dinner table waiting to get hungry, so why would you lie in bed waiting to get sleepy?
And the answer is, you shouldn't. Just take a break. Relax. Know that having a bad night of sleep or even a couple is not the worst thing in the
world. It's OK. You will get better sleep.
AMANPOUR: All right. That is good advice.
Thank you, Matthew Walker.
Now, as we continue our focus on health, we turn to the role of our cities. Black and minority communities continue to bear the brunt of the pandemic
in America and around the world, further exacerbating existing qualities in both health and wealth.
Our next guest says that reimagining urban centers could hold the key to closing those gaps. Marc Morial is president and CEO of the National Urban
League, the historic civil rights organization dedicated to economic empowerment and social justice.
As mayor of New Orleans for two terms, he knows what it takes to run a city.
And here he is speaking to our Walter Isaacson about today's priorities.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Christiane.
And, Mayor Marc Morial, welcome to the show.
MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: Hey, thank you, Walter. Good to be with you.
ISAACSON: You wrote that this pandemic, it would be similar to, like, the Hurricane Katrina you and I went through down here. It exposed the
fragility of our social infrastructure.
Is there a way to bring back our social infrastructure better coming out of something like this COVID pandemic?
MORIAL: Well, thanks for having me, Walter.
And there is, but the key word is intentionality. It will not happen serendipitously. It will not happen automatically. It will require an
intentionality. And that intentionality has to be how we build our public health system, how we build our economic system, how we build our physical
infrastructure.
And I think we're at an inflection moment in American history, where we have got important decisions to make in terms of whether we have learned a
hard and painful truth and whether we going to do things differently going forward, or whether we're going to just sort of allow events to control our
own future.
ISAACSON: Wait. wait. Drill down a bit. You said health infrastructure. What should we be doing?
MORIAL: I think, with our health infrastructure, we need to rethink.
Instead of just pouring billions and billions of dollars into the -- quote, unquote -- hospital systems of America, we need to challenge the hospital
systems, the public health infrastructure, in -- as a condition of receiving these funds, that they do things in a more equitable way.
And so that involves access. That involves affordability. It involves a wide range of things. It is a big task. But I have great confidence that,
if people put their minds to it, and if they acknowledge that to deal with racial injustice and economic injustice, it will not be fixed unless we,
one, acknowledge that it exists, until we say our plan has to incorporate the kind of changes, the kind of reforms that are necessary to build better
systems and better structures.
ISAACSON: Well, just like after a hurricane, there's an opportunity not only to deal with the social infrastructure, but the physical
infrastructure.
If you are looking at cities -- you were mayor of New Orleans, you now head the National Urban League -- looking at cities, what infrastructure should
change?
MORIAL: Well, I think the public health infrastructure must change, how our public health systems work.
[14:40:05]
So, many Americans do not live near a hospital. They do not live near a health clinic. They have no access -- many poor Americans, many Americans
of color do not have access to a primary care physician.
How can we reposition our health system to provide that kind of access? Now, we have -- we have telemedicine. We have new technologies and new
tools that create an opportunity, but then you have got to -- you have got to deal with underlying digital divide issues in order to do it.
But, for example, I think we should start with the public health system. Secondly, Walter, I think the economic vulnerabilities of America are being
exposed. So, one thing that's so fundamental is that so few Americans have an economic cushion.
And so, once they found themselves unemployed, it was the government, that that was the only resort, enhanced unemployment benefits, checks that they
may have received from the government.
Well, what do we need to do? We need to think about how to build an economy, and we're going to have to push up wages and push up earnings, and
we're going to have to force them up in an effort to help people secure a little bit more economic resilience.
My vision and my thinking is that what we need is a broad plan, a broad reconstruction plan, a broad renaissance plan. And the government's going
to have to play a big role in it. The private sector is going to have to align with it. The NGO community is going to have to provide ideas and
promote it.
It's an opportunity. We have to see this as a challenge, a deep crisis, but an opportunity to learn and build better, and -- build better and build in
a more equitable way.
ISAACSON: I just read a good article in "USA Today" that was part of their series on race and urban areas. And it was about Essex County, which you
know quite well.
And it said that the racial segregation in the housing was reflected in the disparities of COVID and health care. How do you deal with that?
MORIAL: Well, look, I think racial housing segregation is a deep and a difficult challenge.
One of the things I think we have to confront is the need for there to be more safe, decent and affordable housing in the nation. So, part of my
thinking, Walter, is, in addition to dealing with these issues of racial justice, we have to -- in conjunction with a plan to build new and more
housing.
And what we can't do when we build affordable housing in the 21st century is balkanize it or place it in only certain areas or zones. I think we have
seen that mixed-income neighborhoods work better. I think those who've had the experiences of racially diverse neighborhoods know they yield strong
benefits.
There are important new ways. But, at the end of the day, if we don't have a plan to construct more units, to construct more affordable units -- the
National Urban League has a project that we will break ground on very shortly in Harlem. We're building 170 units of affordable housing.
We're building a new National Urban League headquarters. We're including retail in there, a cultural arts, if you will, civil rights museum. We have
worked on this project for a long time. We see it as an example of how you can do it.
But it's required the public sector, the private sector and the NGO sector to work together.
ISAACSON: You were very involved and mayor of the city of New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina, and you watched the city rebuild after that
devastating hurricane.
What lessons from how New Orleans rebuilt after a hurricane, especially in terms of equity in the education systems and otherwise, did the city get
right and get wrong?
MORIAL: At the beginning, Walter, there was an effort, I call it the Dallas plan, that was posited by some business leaders to, in effect,
rebuild only portions of the city and decommission many African-American neighborhoods.
The rebuilding got off to a bad start. And so it cemented some, if you will, attitudes and points of view. What you got to do is affirm that, in a
crisis, everyone is affected, but you have also got to affirm that some are affected more deeply because of their vulnerabilities.
And you have got to make sure that the most vulnerable, right, the most vulnerable, those that need, if you will, additional support, get it from
the very beginning.
[14:45:06]
I think, in New Orleans, I think once the people began their advocacy, the recovery was better. But New Orleans today has a challenge of affordable
housing. It has a challenge of continued gentrification. It's a city, like all cities, that needs a comprehensive affordable housing plan that brings
public, private and nonprofit sectors together, sets a goal with the number of units you want to build, talks about where they need to be built.
I'm a big believer, Walter, when I served as mayor, in comprehensive planning that will -- followed by aggressive action, not just planning for
the sake of planning, but planning for aggressive action
What the nation needs now is a broad plan. It may be akin to what Franklin Roosevelt did. It may be akin to what Lyndon Johnson did. It can't be a
series of one-offs or an initiative. We need a broad plan. And the survival of this country depends on it.
Racial intentionality and the sense of pulling a coalition of the willing together, pulling together a coalition of people who understand that the
strength of the country in our future is going to be our ability to build a nation that truly is a multicultural, multi -- multicultural, multiracial,
multireligion, multiorientation democracy.
ISAACSON: National Urban League got slammed yesterday by the U.S. Supreme Court, because you had that case saying that the census...
MORIAL: Yes.
ISAACSON: ... should keep counting. And you were one of the lead people saying that have to keep counting the system -- the census until they get
it right. And then you lost. What does that mean?
MORIAL: Well, it means that the Supreme Court is not a Supreme Court that values an accurate count.
It raises great questions about the Supreme Court and where their value system is. The census, if they were originalists, like some of them claim
to be, then they would know that the text in the Constitution compels the federal government to count every person, and that that value proposition
would have basically supported the idea that the census should go on until the end of October.
Walter, the reason for the extension of the census is that, at the beginning of COVID, the Census Bureau shut down counting, shut down its
field offices for a period of time to keep their employees safe and to keep the people safe.
So I strongly believe in the merits of our position, believe that the Supreme Court -- the decision of the Supreme Court in the census was wrong
and it was unfair, it was inconsistent with the dictates of the Constitution.
ISAACSON: Why is a -- the census extension important for addressing the disparities you talked about with COVID? And why did the Trump
administration not want to allow the census count to continue?
MORIAL: So, I think the Trump administration and some of the political ideologues in the Trump administration want to -- they see the potential
political benefits of a, if you will, low count, or an undercount, particularly an undercount in urban communities and communities of color.
Why is a full count important? Good question you ask. First because of the apportionment of congressional seats, state legislative seats, councilmatic
seats, police jury seats, county commission seats, so that people are fairly represented, so that they get the representation in our legislative
bodies that they just deserve.
Secondly, the census is the backbone for the statistical formulas for the distribution of some almost -- almost a trillion dollars in the federal
budget. So, how many Head Start seats Orleans Parish or the city of New Orleans gets or Philadelphia gets or a rural county in Iowa are allocated
depends on the census count, the number of children who are counted in that particular county.
And I could cite many more examples of why the census is so crucial.
ISAACSON: You have said that racism is the pandemic within the pandemic. What do you mean by that?
MORIAL: I think that race, Walter, is so pervasive that, in the health pandemic, we saw -- and Louisiana was one of the first states to release
racial information on those who died -- have died or those who've been affected, that we see these disparities.
[14:50:03]
It's affecting African-Americans. It's also affecting Native Americans and American Indians, to some extent, Latinx Hispanic Americans. And those
disparities indicate that, within this pandemic that's affecting everyone that's, causing infections and deaths in every community, it's more severe,
it's more disproportionate in those communities of color.
And people say why? Well, black people, for example, because I'm most familiar with these numbers, are more likely to get to a doctor late in
their infection cycle. African-Americans are more likely to have preexisting respiratory COPD, asthma, diabetes, cardiovascular, anyone with
preexisting conditions.
And, Walter, the data from China show this early on. The White House knew this early on that any person with preexisting conditions would be more --
would be sicker and more likely to face -- face the potential of death than any other person.
And, in America, when you look at those numbers, when you look at that factor, and you integrate it with the ratio data, it stands to reason --
and every physician worth their medical degree understands this, every scientist, every researcher knows this -- that means it's going to have a
disproportionate impact.
But we see that many communities of color, African-Americans, are less likely to have access to a primary care physician, less likely to have
health insurance, particularly in those Southern states, where Medicaid is not expanded, and certainly more likely -- more likely to have preexisting
conditions.
I think, when we see that -- but I want to put a really important underscore on that. This does not mean that COVID is a black disease or a
brown disease. It is a disease that affects all people. It's that we have to understand the disproportionality to be able to confront it in an
effective way.
ISAACSON: You're sitting there in New York. I keep reading about people leaving the city, buying homes in suburbs, moving away from cities.
Is this a permanent trend, or are cities so resilient, that, once this is over, cities will bounce back the way they were?
MORIAL: I'm confident cities will bounce back. I think young people and emerging generations -- I think that New York is unique, because it's so
dense, it's so crowded.
I think many cities don't have that level of density. So, you can live in the city and still experience some spacing. I think the biggest challenge
for American cities is the affordability of housing.
I think, in the long run, that is a big challenge. But New York has seen slight rises, slight falls. But people are going to be where the jobs are.
And, even if they can work from home, I still think that cities are the most vibrant, the most exciting, the most dynamic centers of American life.
And I'm confident that they're going to bounce back, but they're going to need support and help. They're going to need our national government.
They're going to need the energy.
Look, Walter, there were people who thought our beloved hometown would never come back. They thought it was G-O-N-E gone, like Pompeii.
And the city has come back, now, with continuing challenges with lots of issues, but it fundamentally came back because the people of New Orleans
loved it enough, cared for it enough, were willing to fight for it enough, were willing to come back and, against great odds, rebuild their houses,
rebuild their businesses.
And there were -- after many of the stumbles at the beginning, there was funding that was made available. It was imperfect in how it may have been
administered. But it came back.
And I think New York and many cities are the very same way. I think people will fight, they will work to bring them back, because cities, I think, are
the heartbeat of America.
ISAACSON: Mayor Marc Morial, thank you so much.
MORIAL: Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And, of course, cities are the heartbeat around the world as well. And these examinations on how to build back better are happening all
over the world, including here in Europe, and, as the mayor pointed out so many challenges, but also so much opportunity ahead to finally forge cities
to really meet the challenges of the 21st century in every -- in every direction.
Finally tonight, we turn to nature's wonders caught on camera.
[14:55:01]
This breathtaking image of a tiger in a remote Siberian forest has won the prestigious Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition. The female tiger
is seen hugging a tree to leave her scent and mark her territory. The Russian photographer Sergey Gorshkov captured the amazing moment using
hidden cameras.
And it's a process that took him nearly a year. Siberian tigers were hunted to the point of extinction, and they remain an endangered species. And, as
we know, of course, trees and forests also endangered by loggers and wildfires and the like.
That's it for now. You can always catch us online, on our podcast and across social media.
Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
END
