Return to Transcripts main page


Interview with "Sweat: A History of Exercise" Author Bill Hayes; Interview with Public Wise Executive Director Christina Baal-Owens; Interview With Rep. Karen Bass (D-CA). Aired 1-2p ET

Aired February 10, 2022 - 13:00:00   ET




Here's what's coming up.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): The bipartisan effort to fight human trafficking in the United States. Congresswoman Karen Bass talks about leading the charge.

Also ahead: how the warmer weather might affect any conflict between Ukraine and Russia. We have a special report from the scene.


JANE FONDA, ACTRESS: Are you ready to do the workout?


AMANPOUR: What links Jane Fonda and Hippocrates? We take a jog through the origins of exercise with Bill Hayes, the author of "Sweat."


CHRISTINA BAAL-OWENS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PUBLIC WISE: Politics has a strangely short memory. So some egregious things can happen, and one

election or two elections later, it's forgotten.

AMANPOUR: Building an insurrection index. The director of Pub Wise tells Hari Sreenivasan about the effort to remember those responsible for the

January 6 attack.


AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Something strange is afoot in the U.S. Congress. It is legislating. Things are getting done. For the first time in a long time, bipartisan progress is

being made on a range of issues, from reforming the U.S. Postal Service to challenging sexual harassment in the workplace, advances that are all

happening despite tensions within the Capitol.

And my first guest is right in the middle of it all.

Democratic Congresswoman Karen Bass is teaming up with Republican Ann Wagner to sponsor a bill to battle human trafficking and to help its


And the congresswoman joins me from Los Angeles, which will host the Super Bowl this Sunday.

And, of course, that's your hometown.

We'd hoped also to have Congresswoman Wagner on, but we are really happy that you could make it to talk to us today.

So, are we right? Is something unusual happening? Is there news? Should the American people be surprised that you're actually getting some things done?

REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): Well, the sad thing is, is that we do typically get many things done on a bipartisan basis. But what grabs the attention

are the really big issues.

And so I'm happy to say that human trafficking is one of those issues that we stand together, Democrats and Republicans. And, as you mentioned, there

were a couple of other issues too. So thank you so much for lifting and putting some attention to when we do work together.


AMANPOUR: So let me just ask you, before getting to the nitty-gritty, because it is all that people talk about the gridlock. And yet you're

telling me, of course, on big issues, that is the case.

BASS: Right.

AMANPOUR: But how much of what you get done actually serves the American people? Are you getting stuff done that really makes the difference?

Or should we be focusing on these very big issues that are important, that some of them seem to be stuck?

BASS: Well, I actually think you have to pay attention to both, because some of those issues that are -- that get stuck are critical, such as

voting rights.

But yet we made progress on infrastructure. That's also critical. And that directly affects the American people. You are talking about jobs. We have

bridges around the country that are falling. And, as a matter of fact, the day before President Biden went to Pittsburgh, talking about

infrastructure, talking about repairing bridges, one of the bridges collapsed.

So infrastructure is a real problem in the United States. We haven't kept up. But we have to pay attention to the smaller issues, the big ones as


AMANPOUR: So tell us why human trafficking in 2022 is still such a massive issue, is something that you regularly try to pay attention to. Now, you're

co-sponsoring this bill.

Tell me about it and how you think you can make a meaningful dent into this ongoing issue.

BASS: Sure.

Well, first of all, one of the things that we have to do in the United States is admit that we have a trafficking problem. I think, in the past,

it's been viewed as an international issue. But human trafficking and especially sex trafficking is a large issue in the United States.

And the sad thing is, is that the average age of a girl that gets caught up into sex trafficking is 12 years old, and she tends to be a girl that was

in the child welfare system, had to be removed from her home because of neglect or abuse. So that makes her extremely vulnerable.

And it also puts her parents out of reach. And so they are easy prey to traffickers. Sometimes, males are trafficked too, but, in terms of sex

trafficking, it is primarily females.


AMANPOUR: And just to emphasize this, the U.N. estimates that, in 2016, their latest numbers, 25 million people globally were in forced labor. And

that's essentially what human trafficking is about, whether it's in sexual prostitution and sexual trafficking or other kinds.

What specifically will your bill do for the victims, because it says victims first?

BASS: Well, again, to help people in the United States acknowledge that this is a problem.

One of the first steps of the bill is for the Department of Justice to provide training and education to law enforcement around the country. I

will tell you that the hospitality industry has certainly stepped forward, the airlines and hotel industries. They do education with their staff, so

that they can spot somebody that's trafficked.

You will see announcements in restrooms, especially female restrooms, in casinos, and in other major entertainment venues, because it's believed and

it's known that trafficking also takes place there as well.

We do have labor trafficking in the United States. And, sometimes, that takes place in people's individual homes or on farms. And so education is

the first step, so people are aware, people can spot it, and people can intervene.

AMANPOUR: You know, I introduced you saying that you're in Los Angeles, where the Super Bowl will be held on Sunday.

And you know better than I do that, each time this comes around, or any major sporting event, there are a lot of concerns about forced labor, human

trafficking, and the like. And the city is putting a lot of resources into combating that at the moment.

But there are anti-trafficking activists who say, actually, there's not really a correlation, and it doesn't really show a spike, and some other

activists who say that some of the efforts against it can often end up sweeping and raiding the wrong people and the most vulnerable people in


What is the fine line that you have to tread? And do you believe there is or there isn't a spike around the Super Bowl?

BASS: Well, I think that there can be a spike.

And one of the things that happens every year in the Super Bowl is a heightened awareness around trafficking. Some years, we have seen major

sweeps, where traffickers were arrested. But any time you have a problem like this, you always worry that the net will be cast too wide.

And so we do have to be careful. And we do have to make very specific interventions and make sure that we're not sweeping up just everybody in a

geographic area. And what I mean by that is, on the way to the Super Bowl, for example, the major streets, the major commercial strips have been known

for prostitution.

And so, sometimes, you have to be careful because you can't just go and arrest every female or male that is walking around looking suspicious.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you about going back to some of the big issues that are stalled?

Obviously, two huge parts of President Biden's agenda, infrastructure and the like, has gone through.But the Build Back Better signature legislation

that he hoped for is stalled, not just because of implacable Republican opposition, but also because two of your own senators, two Democratic


And there's been a lot of conversation, obviously, around the whys and the whats and the -- and all of that. Some have said that all of this trillion-

and billion-dollar packages may have been too much, and that perhaps the president should not have been as ambitious.

What do you think? I mean, obviously, given the reality of this split Senate, and those numbers that are a problem, but what do you think just

about the amount of money and legislation that was on the table?

BASS: Well, I actually don't think it's too much, because when you hear that it's a trillion dollars, that's not a trillion dollars in one year.

That's a trillion dollars over 10 years.

And if you look at how we prioritize other expenses, where we never question the dollar amount, if it -- when it comes to the Department of

Defense, we never question how much money is needed. If we look back and think of all of the money that was spent in Afghanistan, you could probably

take two days of the Afghanistan war to pay for the bill that we're talking about.

Trillions of dollars are wasted in some areas, but, when it comes to helping people that are most vulnerable, then everybody is all of a sudden

very concerned about the expense.

We spent way more than this giving tax breaks a few years ago to millionaires and billionaires, who fared extremely well during the

pandemic. So how is it that we can afford to give money away to people who really don't need it, but yet people who need to get back to work because

of child care -- in my city, we have 40,000 people sleeping in tents around the city. That money will help with that.


Why can't we spend money on that, as opposed to giving tax breaks to people who really don't need it?

AMANPOUR: Could I just ask you, since you mentioned the Afghan war, clearly, the horrible situation that the Afghans were left in, including

the women and girls...

BASS: Right.

AMANPOUR: ... raises issues along the lines of what you're talking about.

Do you worry that Afghan girls are particularly susceptible right now to human trafficking? I know your bill deals with the United States, but you

must be watching things like Afghanistan.

BASS: Right. Oh, absolutely.

I mean, human trafficking is one thing. I worry about the girls, the females in Afghanistan in every way, whether we're talking about

trafficking or not. I was very concerned with us pulling out of Afghanistan, I definitely wanted to see it come to an end.

But I think we could have done it a little differently, where we thought about this and planned for it well in advance.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you to respond to some of these polls?

President Biden has done quite a lot. I mean, there's just quite a lot that's been passed, quite a lot of legislating, and some of it very, very

popular, even amongst Republicans. But the latest poll by CNN released today shows that nearly six in 10 Americans disapprove of his handling of

the presidency.

How -- what is the disconnect there? Why do you think that's happening? What needs to be done differently?

BASS: Well, I think that the American people are frustrated because more hasn't been done, for example, the bill that we were just talking about

that desperately needs to pass to help the American people.

And then, in terms of infrastructure, we did pass that, but it takes a while for people to feel the direct impact. And I think, until they see

shovels and grounds, and new people getting hired to work on these jobs, and then -- I think then people will see that what was done actually will

impact their lives.

The other thing I think that is feeding into those poll numbers right now is inflation. When people have to go to the store, when they have to put

gas in their tank, they feel it immediately. And I think there's been a lot of misinformation that essentially puts the responsibility on the

president's desk.

I think it's far more complicated than that. But I think all of that leads to people feeling like, OK, things might be a little better, but I'm still

wearing a mask, I'm still dealing with this pandemic, and things are still not back to normal. And so who am I going to point to? I'm going to point

to the person at the top.


And, of course, just to just to emphasize that, today, a key measure of inflation showed that it had climbed to a 40-year high last month. Some of

the administration say it's peaked. We will wait to see.

Can I ask you about the -- again, the bipartisan issue? Well, really, this is about Republicans as Trump acolytes and loyalists. It seems that there's

a little bit of moving away from that by some significant members of Congress, whether it's -- all along, it's been people like Congresswoman

Cheney and Adam Kinzinger.

But even Mitch McConnell has stepped into the fray now. And while he may not have out-and-out blamed President Trump for the Capitol riot or

insurrection, he's now really being much more precise about it.

And this is what he said this week.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately

certified election.


AMANPOUR: So, essentially, as you know better than I do, he's responding to the Republican National Committee calling that thing legitimate

political discourse, and to the House Republican leader failing to -- or, actually, he's also-called it legitimate public discourse.

And I just wonder how you think that's going. Do you think enough Republicans are beginning to tip away from that?

BASS: You know what?

One of the things that's frustrating is their inconsistency. So it's just great that Mitch McConnell said that yesterday, but let's see what happens

when Trump criticizes him publicly,. You will see them say one thing one day and then completely reverse it the next day when they get criticized.

So, I will keep my powder dry on that. I will wait to see consistency before I believe that maybe there is a break in the president's armor. But

just think about the message that that sends to the world. You have a former president who really displayed all of his desires to be an

authoritarian ruler, while we in the United States uphold the rule of law, the peaceful transfer of power.

And, right now, our democracy is looking damaged. I think it's so important for us to really move past this time. But that's why I think that the

January 6 Commission is so important.

The American people need to know the whole truth. And I look forward to them holding public hearings very soon.

AMANPOUR: You know, talking about damage to democracy, 1992 was known as the year of the women in office.


It came after those awful Clarence Thomas hearings, the way Anita Hill was treated during the Senate confirmation hearings and the investigations. And

now, for the first time in a long time, a rather record number of Democrats are leaving office or won't run again, some 29, and including yourself.

You came in, in 2011, I think. But you are now leaving in order to run for mayor of your city of Los Angeles, I think, right?

BASS: Yes, that's correct.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Why? Why are you leaving Congress? And do you think you can get more done on a local level?

BASS: Well, the reason why I'm leaving, and I -- let me just say this. I am not leaving because of the problems with -- in Washington. But I am

leaving because the problems in my home city.

We really have a humanitarian crisis that's happening in Los Angeles right now, 40,000 people with tents on the street. Three or more people die a

day; 1,500 died in 2020. And this, in my opinion, is a humanitarian crisis. And we're not addressing it that way.

And so a number of people encouraged me to come home and to bring the experiences that I have had, one in Washington, two in Sacramento, three in

the community, and four with foreign policy, where I have traveled the world. I have seen refugee camps. And the idea that we would have people

living in absolute squalor in the second largest city in the country that has an abundance of wealth and resources is really a shame.

And so I came home to deal with that.

AMANPOUR: Some in your party and in your city are asking about your position on the police force, because you have said that -- and you have

unveiled a public campaign and a plan, because of the violent crime that's kind of on the rise in L.A. And we have seen it in other major cities,

because of the pandemic, they say. We have seen it in New York.

You have also talked about hiring more in the L.A. Police Department. Is that consistent with your up-to-now views on how the police needs to be

reformed in the wake of George Floyd's death, killing?

BASS: I think it's completely consistent, yes. Those two things are not mutually exclusive at all.

We are down several hundred police officers due to attrition, due to retirements. And, of course, you would replace the people that are


But what I'm calling for, because some neighborhoods, not all, some neighborhoods want to have an include increased police presence. And so the

first thing we need to do is hire civilians, because we have a lot of police officers that are working behind a desk. And they could be freed up

to be in those neighborhoods that would like to -- would like to see an increased presence.

In other neighborhoods, an increase presence is actually a problem because of the history of distrust and police abuse in certain neighborhoods. So,

safety needs to be dealt with differently.

But I also call for reenvisioning public safety in Los Angeles. And if I have the privilege of being elected, I would spend the first year, the

mayor's office would spend the first year initiating a process around the city to determine what different neighborhoods need to be safe.

So, we do have a spike. You know that crime spikes up and down. But I do not believe that, because we are dealing with an increase in crime right

now, that that means that we do not pay attention to reforms. We absolutely have to have a transparent, accountable police department.

I believe that about the country, and I certainly believe it about my hometown.

AMANPOUR: Congresswoman Karen Bass, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

BASS: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: And, next, we move on to global affairs and an update on the Ukraine-Russia crisis.

Moscow has begun 10 days of military drills with Belarus. And, as you can see here, Belarus shares a long frontier with Ukraine. Amid ongoing

diplomacy to try to prevent a war, the weather, an unexpected variable, is also playing a role.

Correspondent Melissa Bell has the details in this report.


MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Across much of Ukraine, it's been a mild winter, still plenty of snow, but much of it

turning to slush, the Sea of Azov less icy than normal for the beginning of February.

According to the latest data, temperatures are running between one and three degrees Celsius higher than the 30-year average. And that just might

make a difference to any Russian military offensive.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For him to move in and occupy the whole country, particularly from the north, from Belarus, it's -- he's

going to have to wait a little bit until the ground is frozen.

BELL: The view in Washington is that a Russian offensive needs frozen ground, given Ukraine's landscape.

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Prominent terrain includes flat, open plains. And there are an abundance of rivers and lakes.

And there's a high water table. And when that high water table freezes, it makes it for optimal conditions for cross-country tracked and wheeled

vehicle maneuver.


BELL: It's not so much that modern tanks get bogged down in wet conditions, but the support they need can do.

J.D. WILLIAMS, RAND CORPORATION: More importantly than the tracked vehicles themselves is what they need to sustain themselves, which is fuel

and ammunition, which are very heavy, and are generally carried by wheeled vehicles that need good roads.

BELL: Even the Russians admit that, in some areas, wet conditions can be a factor.

VLADIMIR CHIZHOV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN UNION: If you studied geography of the area, actually, the southern part of Belarus, close to the

Ukrainian border, is a very swampy area, which is hardly fitting for certain active engagement of tanks and other heavy weaponry.

BELL: It's not just the conditions on the ground. It's the skies as well. Clear skies are important for reconnaissance and intelligence-gathering and

for landing assault troops.

WILLIAMS: Cloudy weather, rain, snow, all of that would inhibit the reconnaissance measures that you would use to find the targets. And if you

can't find the targets precisely, then the effect that your fires are going to have are going to be diminished.

BELL: But in the initial phase of any conflict, some experts say that Russia would likely opt for weapons that can operate in any weather, long-

range artillery, ballistic missiles. They would seek to take out Ukrainian command-and-control, not front-line forces.

Satellite imagery indicates that such weapons have been brought forward to positions near the Ukrainian border.

(on camera): The Russian military both on the ground and in the air has been significantly upgraded over the course of the last decade, and it

trains to operate in all weather conditions. But even in the 21st century, weather matters, and the forecast for the rest of February is for milder-

than-normal conditions and plenty of cloud cover.


AMANPOUR: Melissa Bell reporting from Ukraine.

And our next topic began as preparation for soldiers for war. That would be exercise. The Winter Olympics is seeing athletes push their bodies to the

limit, as society more broadly reopens after the pandemic. And data shows that Americans, especially younger ones, are rushing back to fitness,

planning to spend more time and more money to get in shape.

My next guest delves into the history of our relationship with exercise. He's Bill Hayes, the author of "Sweat."

And he's joining me now from your New York.

Bill Hayes, welcome to the program.

And, look, tell us about the history and where it started. I just said, because of reading parts of your book, that it started as some get fit for


BILL HAYES, AUTHOR, "SWEAT: A HISTORY OF EXERCISE": Well, that's exactly right.

So many people think of exercise as a purely modern phenomenon, maybe something that started in the mid-20th century. But it can be traced back

to about the 10th century B.C., when exercise or fitness training was used as training for military combat, hand-to-hand combat. And in one place,

women, as well as men, were encouraged to exercise in preparation for war.

AMANPOUR: And then you trace the history to the Greeks, to the first Olympics. Talk to us about how that refined the notion of exercise.

HAYES: Well, exercise as we know it today really began in the fifth century B.C.

Hippocrates, known as the father of medicine, was the first to really articulate the tenets of exercise. He wrote two treatises on health,

writing about exercise, diet, bathing, different matters of hygiene.

And it was Hippocrates who said, eating alone will not keep a man well. He must also take exercise, for exercise and food while possessing opposite

qualities, yet work together to produce health.

So, really, this culture of exercise and athletics can be traced back to the fifth century B.C. and maybe, one could even argue, even further back

to the founding of the Olympic Games in the eighth century B.C.

But Hippocrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, the important second century Roman physician, all advocated for exercise.

AMANPOUR: So the title of your book is "Sweat."

Is there a particular reason that you want to tell us about?


HAYES: There is, maybe two.

The idea for this book first came to me in a gym, appropriately enough. I was at a gym working out. And, suddenly, I paused and looked down at the

gym floor and just thought, how did we all end up here in gyms? And if I were to trace a line backward in time, where would I land?


And it started really with that simple question. But one of the most surprising discoveries I made while doing research was that, during

antiquity, in ancient Greece, the sweat of athletes was considered a prized commodity. And athletes would really scrape the sweat and oil from their

bodies after exercising or competing.

There was a special tool created just for this purpose called a strigil. They would funnel the sweat and oil into little clay pots. This kind of

funky-smelling mixture -- I'm sure it was very funky-smelling -- was called gloios. And it was sold. It was sold in gyms for medicinal purposes.

And it was kind of an extra source of income for gymnasiums. And, at that time, there were gymnasiums in just about every town in the Greek empire.

AMANPOUR: That's pretty amazing that they would gyms. I'm actually having a hard time listening to this story about scraping sweat and oil off the

human body and then selling it on to other unsuspecting humans.


AMANPOUR: What kind of medicinal purpose? Did it actually have one? I mean, were you able to figure out a medicinal purpose for it, or was it

wrapped up in the myth that, if some very important sports figure had success, then that could maybe be transferred on?

HAYES: Well, that's exactly right. You guessed it exactly right.


HAYES: They had a belief that sweat must contain the essence of arete, the essence of excellence of the athlete, and that that could be used for

medicinal purposes.

And yet, while one might think, well, maybe that would be used to make you run faster or be stronger, it was used for very basic dermatological

purposes, things like curing warts or even hemorrhoids.

So some have said to me, well, it was almost like the first supplement. But, no, it is a purely a myth, and really contribute to athletes in this

culture of athletics and exercise that did exist in ancient Greece and Rome.

AMANPOUR: So let's fast forward to the 16th century. And you talk about how exercise sort of metamorphosized in that sort of time.

Tell us how that and who then changed what it stood for, what it looked like.

HAYES: Yes, I cover a lot of figures in my book, from Hippocrates up through Jane Fonda and Jack LaLanne and even the pandemic.

But one of the most important historical figures in my book was a physician named Girolamo Mercuriale. He was Italian. He was in Rome. He was personal

physician to an important cardinal, Cardinal Farnese.

And Mercuriale wrote the first comprehensive book on exercise. It's called "De Arte Gymnastica." And I first discovered it in a library here in New

York City, a rare books room, where a librarian introduced me to Mercuriale and his important book, which actually was sort of lost to history.

And when I opened that book for the first time the librarian presented it to me, I opened it to a page with an illustration of two pairs of men

wrestling. It captivated me, and I wanted to read the whole book. It was a big book. I turned the page and found it was all written in medieval Latin.

So I couldn't read a word, except I could kind of make out the Latin word for exercise.

I tracked down an English translation, an English translator, and it led me on a kind of worldwide journey into the history of exercise, while also

retracing Mercuriale's footsteps.

I wanted to know what led him to write this tome on exercise in the 16th century. He devoted chapters to walking, running, swimming, boxing,

wrestling, even laughter, and looking at it always from the perspective of a physician, like Hippocrates many centuries before.

He was kind of ahead of his time in a lot of ways.

AMANPOUR: Except that back then, you write that, for the most part, exercise was the province and the domain of athletes. So it was very niche

back then.

Fast-forward, again, to the 20th century. And you mentioned Jane Fonda. And she was most definitely, I think, for sure, the breakout workout home video

exercise queen, and the pictures are amazing. And that sort of massively popularized it, especially for women.

What impact did she have in terms of your research?

HAYES: She had a huge impact.

I grew up in the '70s and '80s (AUDIO GAP). In the history of exercise, I would honestly say she has been one of the most important figures.


HAYES: She democratized exercise. She made it possible for women especially, but also men, to exercise at home, pop in a videotape. She

really made the whole VHS video market explode. And the great thing about Jane Fonda was she was a fantastic teacher. Her workouts really have not

dated or aged. You could watch one online today and get a great workout.

She also sort of globalized exercise. So, women could do Jane, whether in New York City or Guatemala or in Germany, all around the world. She was

really a groundbreaking figure.

AMANPOUR: And, Bill, I think what's interesting also is the concept of exercise may have changed somewhat in that it was -- you know, started as

being fit and strong and physically healthy and probably even how, you know, you looked. And then, more and more now, especially in the pandemic,

it's about mental health and it's just taken on a much broader role in total health.

And I did actually have a chance to talk to Jane Fonda about this when I sat down with her in 2017, because she told me about some of the eating

issues and other things that, you know, she had that actually exercise helped, not just her looks.

HAYES: Absolutely.


JANE FONDA, ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: I suffered from eating disorders, addictions, bulimia, anorexia for many, many years. And what I knew was

that exercising diminished the anxiety that caused that to happen. And when I was in my early 40s, I stopped. I went cold turkey, and I didn't engage

in my eating disorders, but I was like a dry drunk.

In other words, it was all still there in me but I wasn't do anything about it. That's when I started the workout. And the workout helped me heal



AMANPOUR: It is really amazing, that. And I'm sure you've researched that in your own life. You've gone through some really difficult times. You've

lost two partners, you were active in terms of, you know, photography and others during the height of the aids crisis and you confronted all of this.

And of course, gym culture was very big in the 1980s. Just talk to me a little bit about that and how exercise -- how you found it in terms of the

historical perspective dealing with mental health, as well?

HAYES: Absolutely. It is so important to one's mental health as well as physical health. And I do trace the history of exercise century by century

from antiquity up to the present day, including the pandemic. And so, many of us found that exercise was a part of getting through the past two years.

It still is.

I was fascinated during the lockdown when gyms all around the world suddenly closed, it was like going cold turkey for gym rats. And yet,

still, we exercised. I myself just adapted by creating a home exercise routine, taking walks every day. And it was really fascinating to notice

how people gathered together just naturally, intuitively in public spaces, parks and so forth to exercise together.

I think there's a real social component to exercising, whether in a gym or running with friends or bicycling. That's just as important and helps with

one's mental health for sure.

AMANPOUR: Tell me from your experience being active in the Aids Foundation during the peak of that pandemic, which was, obviously, in the '80s, how

those who suffered, what did exercise mean to them? What did it do for them because their bodies were so weakened?

HAYES: Right. You know, I've lived through two pandemics. The aids pandemic and the COVID pandemic and it's so different. Gyms were very

important almost as community centers, where there would be information posted, maybe project inform meetings or act up meetings but also

memorials, dates for memorials posted to the front desk at one's gym.

And at that time, building up muscle, being fit, getting stronger was part of staying healthy and even preventing progression to later stages of aids.

But they were really places where -- especially gay man, I was living in San Francisco at the time, could come together. And, of course, with COVID

I think exact opposite, you know. Even though gyms are open or were opened, one had to keep distance, you had to wear a mask, very different kind of

social aspect to it.

But, yes, it's -- the gyms and exercising and staying fit and getting muscular were very a part of the aids pandemic especially in the '80s and

the early '90s, which I cover in the book.


AMANPOUR: Yes, you do. And you also talk about empowerment. We mentioned Jane Fonda. But specifically, in terms of women's rights and women's

empowerment. You talk about the bicycle. And you quote the American Women's Rights activist Susan B. Anthony who said in 1886, the bicycle has done

more for the emancipation of women than anything else in the world. It gives women a sense of feeling freedom and self-reliance. And I stand and

rejoice, she said, every time I see a woman ride by on a wheel with the picture, untrammeled womanhood.

HAYES: Christiane, isn't that the greatest quote? That's one of my favorite quotes in my whole life. Oh, my gosh. Yes, the invention of the

bicycle was so important. It actually took place over a longer period than one might expect, about 75 years. But by 1896, when Susan B. Anthony said

that, the bicycle pretty much been perfected, the kind of bicycle we ride today.

And someone, probably a woman, had the idea of removing that horizontal bar between the seat and handlebars so that women, at that time, in their long

dresses and skirts could mount a bicycle and ride away. It was really a symbol of freedom and this intersect would the women right's movement that

was at that time.

AMANPOUR: Well, I ride freely on bike, too, and I love it. But what is your routine of choice? What do you do to exercise and feel free and

healthy and active?

HAYES: Well, my favorite form of exercise is swimming. I'm a swimmer. So, swim two or three times a week. Try to swim a mile. That really started

with my late partner, Oliver Sacks, the neurologist and author who was a great swimmer, open water swimmer and lap swimmer. And that became really

part of our life.

So, I still swim. I work out. Take walks. I do a little bit of yoga. I was doing more yoga before the pandemic. But now, I just try to work yoga

stretches into my workouts. In the book, I sort of trace the history of exercise but also a little bit of my own history of exercise.

AMANPOUR: Well, it's fascinating. "Sweat" by Bill Hayes. Thank you so much, indeed.

Next, a year since the January 6th capitol riot, how do we hold the instigators accountable. Some lawyers are resorting to the 14th Amendment,

using a clause that bans anyone from holding office who has taken part in an insurrection. Now, voting rights organization Public Wise has launched

an online database that details those who supported the insurrection. And here's executive director Christina Baal-Owens speaking to Hari Sreenivasan

about why this index is important.


HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Christina Baal-Owens, thanks for joining us.

So, tell me about the Insurrection Index. If I'm scrolling across it right now on your site, what do I see?

CHRISTINA BAAL-OWENS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PUBLIC WISE: So, the Insurrection Index was our answer to accountability. For some of us who

worked in politics for a long time, we know that politics has a strangely short memory. So, some egregious things can happen and one election or two

elections later it's forgotten.

So, the Insurrection Index was our attempt at Public Wise to memorialize the actions of January 6th and also, to create a single point of access of

all the information and research that's available about participants on January 6th.

So, if you go to, you'll find 1,432 total records, and each of those records includes sort of the top lines of how people were

involved and what we're calling the receipts. So, screen grabs from their social media, information about where they're located, any affiliations

they might have, their social media handles and information that is particularly important to us is whether or not they're a sitting elected

official or if they have declared candidacy to run for office.

SREENIVASAN: Where do you get your financial support from? How do you make sure that is not used against you while you're publishing this data?

BAAL-OWENS: Our financial support right now comes from individual donors. There's actually been quite a bit of -- there's going to be quite a bit of

donors who have given once they look at the Insurrection Index. Because we are not getting funding from foundations or any of these institutions or

political parties, we have the ability to be completely objective.

And I -- you know, I've always said, you know, right now, if you look at the Insurrection Index, there are quite a few members of one political

party. If we found -- I said, our political director said this during the staff meeting and I believe this wholeheartedly, if we found a democrat

that was an insurrectionist, there is a special place on this index for them, and we would include them and we would highlight them.

SREENIVASAN: So, how many people who have shown up in your Insurrection Index are running for office or are sitting elected officials?


BAAL-OWENS: So, right now, and I should say that the Insurrection Index, we are constantly updating it. It is not as if there was a set universe and

we didn't know going in, starting that, you know, X many people were involved in the insurrection. So, it is something even daily that is being


As of today, there are 209 sitting elected officials that we have records on in the Insurrection Index and 37 candidates. And I should say those are

candidates who have declared. We expect that number to grow exponentially as the 2022 midterms approach.

SREENIVASAN: So, what does it take to get on your index? I mean, what is the threshold? What's the bar that you hold and say, OK, this is strong

enough where we need to publicize this person's actions?

BAAL-OWENS: We had a lot of discussion about this within our team and what we landed on was people who attended, funded, organized, did outreach for

or otherwise created the climate through the spread of misinformation that created the January 6th insurrection.

SREENIVASAN: OK. That last one, created the climate seems like the biggest gray area. I mean, obviously, if you're convicted, I get it. If you were

somebody who was an insurrectionist who was arrest on the scene, that there is record of that. But kind of going down from that level down to what is

the category in spreading misinformation, for example? How do you qualify that?

BAAL-OWENS: So, we found that there are a lot of elected officials who are in public trust. Meaning that their salaries are paid by taxpayers and that

are trusted messengers within their community who are spreading complete misinformation about elections and trying to create mistrust in the


So, I think a good example of that is Mark Finchem in Arizona. He's running for secretary of state, which in Arizona is a lead election official. And

if you look at his record in our index, there are social media screen grabs of him spreading information just complete, you know, mistruths, lies about

the elections in Arizona and their validity. And we know that in Arizona, Katie Hobbs, the current secretary of state calls it the fraud it. There

was an exorbitant amount of taxpayer dollars that was spent on looking at the validity of Arizona elections and there was no -- there was nothing

found that can say anything about the Arizona elections not being valid.

So, we consider someone like Mark Finchem an insurrectionist because he was spreading this information to lead people to attend this rally or

otherwise, you know, and bring arms or, you know, participate in this event.

SREENIVASAN: Were there members, either elected officials, at the time who were breaking into the capitol that you have on your index or were engaged

in violence or were charged with crimes that way?

BAAL-OWENS: I don't believe we have anyone that was charged with a crime, but someone that I think is interesting is Ken Paxton who is the attorney

general of the State of Texas. So, essentially, you know, the lead criminal justice of elected official in Texas was on stage with President Trump at a

rally where there were calls to violence.

So, you know, this was not -- this is someone that we should be trusting to uphold the law and, you know, to look at ways that do not involve violence,

you know, to protest, and he was there standing on stage while calls to actions to violence were being made.

SREENIVASAN: If people believe that President Biden is illegitimately in the office, then it seems much easier in their minds maybe to justify what

happened because they think they're doing the right thing by taking the country back. But that breaks down ideologically. I mean, when you survey

Democrats versus Republicans on who believes what, it's night and day.

BAAL-OWENS: We surveyed across the political spectrum people's thoughts on the insurrections. And I will say that for a lot of the questions that we

asked about thoughts on people who participated or people who attended, whether or not those people should hold public office, those went right

down party lines.

You know Democrats thought that, no, people who attended should not hold office, people who funded the rally should not hold office. Republicans

thought, yes, it is fine. Also, I would say that Democrats thought that there was not enough attention paid to the insurrection generally.

Republicans thought it was OK to sort of not memorialize it and let it go.

Where we saw that there was bipartisan agreement was when we asked if someone, a sitting elected official, coordinated with insurrectionists in

advance and made it easier for them to infiltrate the capital should they hold office? And the majority of both Democratic and Republican voters said


So, I do think that there are some ideological divides here, but I also do think that is there is a group of moderate Republicans who are not buying

into the, you know, legitimate political discourse messaging and believed that this was a real problem.

SREENIVASAN: You know, for someone who might be watching overseas and that legitimate political discourse phrase is so important because just recently

the RNC censured two of its own members, Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, but also, they called what happened on January 6th legitimate political



BAAL-OWENS: Yes, I was pretty blown away by that statement, I have to say. And, you know, my initial thoughts are legitimate political discourse does

not include a gallow being mounted outside the capitol for the express purpose of assassinating a sitting vice president. You know, it does not

include national calls to arms and telling people to bring arms from all 50 states, and we have found that there are insurrectionists in all 50 states,

to come to the capitol and to create harm and, you know, death to capitol police and members of Congress.

These are not features of legitimate political discourse. And, obviously, I believe in legitimate political discourse, I just don't think this was an

example of it.

SREENIVASAN: One of the critiques online that you see as soon as people start searching up for the Insurrection Index is, oh, my gosh. You know

what, McCarthy had lists, other people had lists before. This is the, you know, latest example of cancel culture, this is about silencing descent,

this is -- this creation of such a list is un-American. And what is your response to those kinds of critics?

BAAL-OWENS: I think the creation of this list is actually very American and I will say because our call to action here is not about doxing, it's

not about canceling, it is about making an informed choice to vote. So, every person, every voter has a right to search a candidate or a member of

their community and see what their involvement was in a violent act against our government and make a decision for themselves on whether or not they

choose to vote for that person.

Obviously, Public Wise and I have a very strong opinion that anyone involved should not hold office and should not have the right to make

decisions about taxpayer dollars, about legislation, about the administration of elections, but making public information easy to search

is not McCarthyism, it is a very American concept to be able to educate yourself and to cast a vote that is informed.

SREENIVASAN: You know, how many of the people that are on your list are holding national office versus local ones?

BAAL-OWENS: What we have seen that there are insurrectionists running at every level. And why that is concerning to me is, you know, there's members

of Congress that would be insurrectionists or looking at legislation, voting on voting rights legislation and other legislation like the right to

choose or immigration that would affect people's lives.

Then, at the state level, there's people directly involved in either the administration like secretaries of state or decisions around whose vote

counts and how often and when, meaning how elections are administered, when they're able to vote. And, you know, from the school board level, people

deciding how people are educated on civic education. So, the fact that we have found records that are on every level is really concerning.

SREENIVASAN: You know, is there a way to distinguish, for example, somebody's social media presence who might get them on the insurrectionist

list versus the people who were actually smashing windows and hurtling police officers and destroying property and doing that on deck, right? I

mean, it's one of those things where -- when people have a tendency to kind of minimize and summarize very quickly, oh, his name or her name is on the

list. And then, it's well, no, you know what, it's just tweeting, it's just this stuff. They weren't actually in D.C. I mean, how do you make sure that

people understand what they're seeing?

BAAL-OWENS: So, the -- we have the actual screen grabs. You can see what people said and what people did. So, people can make that decision for

themselves. There's also the topline. We have outlined who was charged, who was not. You can actually search by charges. And, you know, there were

various charges brought against people who have participated.

I would just also go back to say that I don't think it's just tweeting. I think spreading information about elections and trying to erode people's

trust in elections in such a way that would, you know, lead to them and also, you know, some of them -- some of the tweets are things like the bus

is leaving from here and, you know, we funded a bus to go to this rally. You know, those are pretty egregious and those are things that should be

called out.

But each record does outline exactly why we included them and people can make their own decision based on that.

SREENIVASAN: Given that there are tax on voting rights and given that there is continued gerrymandering and that there's no campaign finance

reform, all these things seem to be happening at a time, as you point out, when there is a rise in disinformation. Do you think that the group of

people who believe that the insurrection was legitimate will grow?


BAAL-OWENS: I think that group of people will grow if we allow insurrectionists to hold office and to have larger platforms. And, you

know, I think there could be growth and, you know, there will be ebbing and weaning in the people that believe in these far-right conspiracies and who

have, you know, a lot of mistrust in validly held elections, but I think the way that we sort of pick away at this issue, and it is a real issue, is

not allowing those people to be able to officiate elections and then, make them really untrustworthy for everyone.

And that's why I feel like, you know, there's a lot of really amazing work being done by voting rights advocates to combat voter suppression, to fight

back against the laws that are happening at the state level. And what Public Wise has chosen as our lane and that we're hoping that other people

will join us is keeping these folks out of office so that this can't be codified and solidifies any further.

SREENIVASAN: As we head into this midterm, what are you seeing in terms of who is being targeted, where the kind of miscommunication or I should say,

disinformation and misinformation is? What are the different communities that you see this happening that's a little bit under the radar and we're

not paying attention?

BAAL-OWENS: Well, one of the reasons that we focus voters of color is that our research showed us both our, you know, formal research and then,

working with our partners who are working in different communities of color and especially immigrant communities, we can see that there is messaging

that is directly sent to these communities that give completely false information on elections. And, I mean, as basic as what day the election



BAAL-OWENS: And I think some of these communities are specifically vulnerable because they're learning a new election system, which is

difficult even for someone like me where this is my full-time job to know every state and to know, you know, when you vote, where you vote and how

you find that information.

And we found really interesting things like in immigrant communities there's a lot of organizing that happens on WhatsApp and there were --

there was messaging going out from groups that, you know, were questionable that people weren't sure whether to trust it or not because they had also

gotten information that was completely false about elections.

So, we really do work with groups that are spreading correct information and that are doing a lot of work within communities through trusted

messengers to make sure that people have the right information they need to participate in elections.

SREENIVASAN: What worries you heading into the midterms now?

BAAL-OWENS: I worry about a few things. I worry about fatigue. We are at a turning point in the history of our country and at the shape of our

democracy. And, you know, as someone who especially comes from immigrant family, the U.S. has always been held as a beacon of democracy, an example

of how elections should be held. And right now, after January 6th, after all of these laws that are being passed at the state level to suppress

votes, we're really struggling for a functioning democracy.

And part of the misinformation and the goals of insurrectionists, which I think is not just a day, it's a larger movement, part of that is to create

the mistrust that stops people from voting and that's another form of voter suppression. So, I understand that people are exhausted, but we still have

to participate. If we want any chance of preserving our democracy for future generations and future elections, we still have to participate and

we still need to be informed.

SREENIVASAN: Christina Baal-Owens, executive director of Public Wise, thanks so much for joining us.

BAAL-OWENS: Thank you for having me.


AMANPOUR: And talk of participating, coming up tomorrow, I speak to Andrew Young, a towering figure in the nonviolent movement for civil rights.

Alongside his friend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Young led monumental desegregation movements and protests for the right of African-Americans to

vote. He's also served as a congressman, a mayor and as ambassador to the United Nations. Here's a snippet from our conversation.


ANDREW YOUNG, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I remember Martin Luther King saying that, look, we are -- and he called us, he said, you know, we are a bunch

of clinically insane individuals. And he said, nobody in their right mind would think that here we are, 15, 20 people, all of us under 30, under 40.

And he said, you got to be sick to think that with no money and only the resources we have in our minds and souls and spirits that we can change

this nation. And he said, we might not make it to 50, but if we make it to 50, we got to make it to 100 because it's going to take 100 years or so to

get this country right.


AMANPOUR: And you won't want to miss that conversation.

And finally, tonight, the havoc aboard security guard can wreak on his first day working at a gallery in Russia. This one put pen to canvass,

drawing eyes on a painting worth a million dollars. It's meant to be a portrait of three faceless figures but the guard with the black pen decided

that he knew better than the artists. Police are investigating.


This isn't the first time a painting has been vandalized in Russia. In 2018, a man was charged for attacking an artwork of Ivan the Terrible. He

then confessed that after getting drunk on vodka, he found the painting disturbing.

That's it for now. And if you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. You can find it at and all major platforms. Just search for Amanpour or scan the QR code on your screens right now.

Remember, you can always catch us online. Thank you for watching and good- bye from London.