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Ukraine's First Lady On Coping With Personal Strain Of War; Sir Richard Shirreff Analyzes The Latest News On The Ukraine war; Interview With Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe Sir Richard Shirreff. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired June 28, 2022 - 12:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone and welcome to AMANPOUR. Here's what's coming up.


OLENA ZELENSKA, FIRST LADY OF UKRAINE: This is indeed terrorism. Week cannot call this any other name.

AMANPOUR (voiceover): A shopping center filled with women and children, Russia's latest civilian targeting Ukraine. And as the death toll and

suffering there grow, the First Lady Olena Zelenska joins me for a rare interview. Then, the NATO Summit declares Russia its greatest threat.

Former deputy NATO commander Richard Shirreff joins me on its beefed up posture for the future. And...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we look back to the 1950s and 1960s, there actually was a very vibrant movement among clergy to assist women to get


AMANPOUR (voiceover): So, what changed? Historian Carissa Hogberg (PH) joins Walter Isaacson with a look at the surprising past and the uncertain

future. The 6:00 hour.


Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. As Russia's war on Ukraine enters its fifth month, constant reminders that it

is being mostly waged against soft targets, that means civilians. Today, President Zelenskyy called the attack on a shopping center, one of the most

defiant terrorist acts in European history. Search and rescue operations continue. But at least 18 people are confirmed dead with many, many more

wounded. The Russians, for their part, sticked to familiar lines, claiming that their strike targeted western weapons and ammunition.

It came just as western leaders assembled in Europe for G7 and NATO summits, to show renewed strength and unity for Ukraine. Zelenskyy says,

the enemy has marked him as target number one and his family as number two. But neither he nor First Lady Olena Zelenska is cowering in fear. Like him,

she is busy on many fronts, rallying the world to Ukraine's cause, supporting her people during this devastating war, and being a mother to

two children. Zelenska met her husband when they were just kids, and in a T.V. exclusive now from Kyiv, she tells me their relationship is on pause,

like so many other families fighting for their nation's survival.


AMANPOUR: First Lady Olena Zelenska, welcome to our program.

ZELENSKA (through translator): Hello, Christiane, and thank you for inviting me to do this interview.

AMANPOUR: Well, I'm really happy to talk to you, but obviously, it comes at a very sad moment for you, for your country, and a moment where yet again,

everybody realizes that anybody can be a target after that missile attack on the mall, Kremenchuk, you know, nearly 20 people dead. What is your

reaction to that? How are ordinary people reacting to that?

ZELENSKA (through translator): Well, of course, we cannot react in any other way than be shocked. This is indeed terrorism, we cannot call this

any other name. Yesterday, in Kremenchuk, more than 1,000 people were in the shopping mall. This is an ordinary shopping mall, there were children

and adults there. And you've just said how many people died. We still don't know the final number. We are all shocked. And unfortunately, we are

shocked yet again in this war. We were shocked many times. I don't know what else the occupiers can shock us with.

AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you, it is now into the fifth month of this war. Your husband, the President, told the G7 leaders that this war had to be

ended by the end of this year. Can I ask you about morale, your morale, your children's morale, the people's morale? Because everybody's been so

impressed by the heroic resistance that Ukraine has mounted. But what is the morale five months in now?

ZELENSKA (through translator): You know, in the first weeks and months, we were like sprinters, we were doing a short run at high speed. We gave it

200 percent. But now, everybody now is running a marathon. We need to calculate our strength, and we need to hold on, as you said, it's very

difficult to hold on for five months.


we cannot see physically or mentally, we cannot see the end of our suffering. So, we need to accumulate our strength, we need to save us --

our energy, and all Ukrainians must do it. It's very difficult for all of us. And we need -- we are trying to find joy in simple things. Maybe stroke

a cat, or do something simple, but we all looking -- we all look forward for this war to end.

AMANPOUR: That's really poignant, what you say, try to do simple and beautiful things. How do you specifically feel about your safety? We know

you told us when we last talked over email in April, that at the beginning of the war, it happened, you barely were able to say goodbye to your

husband, he sent you in the kids somewhere else in Ukraine to be safe. Now, I understand you can come back to Kyiv more often, more regularly. How do

you specifically feel about yours and your family's safety?

ZELENSKA (through translator): Yes. Fortunately, those two months when I didn't see my husband at all, that's in the past, I can see him sometimes

in -- for a short time and not very often, but I can physically feel him next to me. This isn't normal. It's not a normal relationship when children

cannot see their father and have to talk to him on the phone. So, our relationship is on pause, just as it is for many -- well, all Ukrainians. I

would say that half of our population are apart and are not together. And we, just like every family, are waiting to be reunited, to be together

again, to spend evenings, to have dinner together, to talk to the children about their things. And not only their children's things, but my daughter,

for example, is a young adult now.

But we're hanging in. We are -- I like this image. We're holding on, just like that cupboards in Borodyanka when the occupiers bombed a building, and

bombed all the buildings there. And we saw this photo, one of the buildings, and there was a wall remaining. And there was that a wardrobe or

a cupboard there that stood, undamaged. So, we're holding on, we're telling each other, how are you? I'm like that cupboard in Borodyanka. So, I'm

trying to hold on just like that cupboard.

AMANPOUR: It's amazing you say that, because I witnessed that myself in Borodyanka. And we filmed it, and we broadcast it, the cupboard, the table,

the chair, the coat that was still remaining. So, it was a still life. Tell me, you've just spoken about your daughter. Tell me about your son, he's

much younger. And obviously, the war, he's not being sheltered from it. He knows what's going on. What does he think about weapons, soldiers, about

the military unfolding on the ground?

ZELENSKA (through translator): You know, there isn't much you can hide from our children these days. And I'm not going to hide it. He lives in the same

information space as me. As a boy, he is interested in military affairs, and he is watching our action, the arrival of weapons from our partners,

just like all Ukrainians, he knows about it all, about all kinds of guns that we're using.

And on the one hand, it is a boy's dream about heroic feats. But on the other hand, it's very sad that my child is growing up like this, that we

have to -- we were raising our children -- we weren't raising them for war, we were raising them for peace. We wanted them to see their future without

a war. So, we are very much hoping that these military moods will somehow change to a peaceful one, and that he can imagine our life, and that we can

put our life on a peaceful footing.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about your work with mental health. In other words, the challenges faced by children and women in Ukraine right now, especially

since there does seem to be a stigma in many parts of your world on the issue of mental health. It doesn't seem to be, you know, like in the -- in

the United States or elsewhere, as many mental health providers. Is that a challenge?


ZELENSKA (through translator): Yes, you're right. Maybe this is something to do with the history of our country. Many people, especially elderly

people, they lived under the Soviet Union when there was no quality mental health assistance at the time, and many of them see something like this as

they're so -- whenever they see a word that has the prefix cycle that they feel this is something wrong. And we need to overcome this stigma. And we

need to make people realize that if they are unwell, mentally, they need to seek specialist help. But I think stigma is about the elderly, that's more

of the older generation. Younger people like me have a different attitude.

And indeed, they will seek and they do need a mental health assistance. We can see people who saw the death of their loved ones, who were held under

occupation, or maybe in captivity, many of them are children, and many can have post-traumatic stress. So, all of that needs to be diagnosed. And we

need to treat to this. So, we have a national program for mental health assistance, and we are trying to minimize the consequences of this horrific

war for our society and for every person.

AMANPOUR: Last year, you organized a conference, first ladies and first gentlemen in Kyiv. And you're trying to do it again this year, or you say

you will do it again this year. Tell me what will be -- what it will be about, what you're trying to achieve?

ZELENSKA (through translator): Thank you for this question. It is important for me, because last year at last, we succeeded in creating the

professional union, if you could say, for first ladies and first gentleman, because until then, there was no such association. And this enabled me in

the first month to also get help from our first -- for other first ladies for our humanitarian programs.

So, yeah, we want to continue this again. And of course, in -- when the war is on, of course, not everybody can come physically. So, we are trying to

have a hybrid format. So, those who can join us by video, then they will do so. There will be big video links between cities. And we will be discussing

human resources, human capital, what can a person endure after such a crisis that we are undergoing?

AMANPOUR: It's really important, and your country in your yourself and your husband, the President, have done so much to keep Ukraine connected with

the rest of the world. And of course, since the beginning of the war, we've all noticed, and we've all watched and listened to the President's speeches

every night, that he does with selfies or his film. I just wanted to know because you are a writer yourself. And you've had not just a personal

union, but a professional union during your husband's entertainment career, you're a writer. What do you think of those speeches?

ZELENSKA (through translator): Thank you for your question. I'm not a literary writer. I worked on screenplays, and it was a television show. Of

course, I understand how a speech can be improved to reach out to people, but truly, my husband doesn't need to help, he knows what he needs to say

and how to say it. Sometimes, I as everybody else, I am too impressed.

And I think this was a very good idea. He is in touch with Ukrainians every night and everybody knows that he is in post, he's on duty, and they find

out important information from him that they need to know in order to maintain calm and to go to bed peacefully and hope -- with a hope that

everything will be all right in the morning.


AMANPOUR: First Lady Olena Zelenska, thank you for joining us.

ZELENSKA (through translator): Thank you very much and goodbye.


AMANPOUR: And the grit of the Ukrainian people has been a source of inspiration as we said to people all over the world. Volunteers are fanning

out across that country to deliver urgently needed supplies, sometimes dangerously close to the fighting. Correspondent Ben Wedeman takes us on a

rescue ride.


BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Yulia and her friends are loading up their armored van, food, medicine, water for

frontline villages. That and protective gear for the troops. Before the war, Yulia was a model and worked in local government, now he's a

volunteer. "I didn't consider leaving as an option," she says. "Of course, I'm staying in my country to help as much as possible."

During a drive back from the front in May, Yulia was badly injured when her truck crashed under shelling. She spent two restless months in hospital.

"They were holding me in hospital, and I told them I have work to do.", she recalls. "I was coordinating deliveries on the phone. I had no right to sit

on my hands." For a stop on this day, a military position by the road. All of this has been donated by people in Ukraine. Here, the troops offer a

quick appraisal of world leaders.


WEDEMAN: Boris Johnson.

WEDEMAN: What about Biden?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With Joe Biden, yes, yes.


WEDEMAN (voiceover): The next stop, a village perilously close to the fighting.

(on camera) They have to hand out the aid as quickly as possible because they don't want people to get together because we're just a few kilometers

from Russian lines.

(voiceover) Spirits here still buoyant. "I stayed because of the animals," Natasha tells me, "I'm responsible for all the abandoned animals on this

street. More than 50 cats and around 20 dogs." At our final stop, they drop off more supplies for the soldiers and feed stray dogs. They'd plan to

evacuate a family fleeing from behind Russian lines, but they didn't show up. The soldiers here say, overnight, there was heavy shelling, Russian

drones often on the prowl overhead. "My mind tells me I shouldn't be afraid," says Yulia. "But we can't leave them behind."

Then, is a dog and two litters of puppies born in the trenches. One of the mother dogs was killed by Russian artillery. The little ones, orphans. Once

loaded, we're off to the City of Zaporizhzhia. We're out of the danger zone. Once we get to the city, they'll take the mother who's been injured

in a blast to a vet. They found homes for some of these puppies, but not all.


AMANPOUR: Ben Wedeman there with the tail of the endless motivation of Ukrainian people and indeed the fighters. Now today, President Macron said

that Putin cannot and should not win this war. And at the NATO summit in Madrid, the Allies will stress that Russia poses, quote, the most

significant threat to their security. So, they're rolling out plans to bolster their defense posture is the biggest upgrade since the Cold War.

300,000 more troops will be deployed on the eastern flank and shifted into high alert.

Joining me now is General Sir Richard Shirreff, he was deputy military commander of NATO when Putin first invaded back in 2014. And welcome back

to our program, General Shirreff, we really want to know because we've talked to you so many times about the lay of the land and what you've been

calling for, for a long time, to show a proper deterrent force. Does this do it now by NATO leaders?

RICHARD SHIRREFF, RETIRED SENIOR BRITISH ARMY OFFICER: It's that -- let's not underestimate. This is a massive shift by NATO. It's what many of us

have been calling for. And it's absolutely what is needed to demonstrate to Putin that NATO is ready to take the risks inherent in supporting Ukraine.

We might come back to that in a minute. Is it going to be enough? Now, that all depends on the political leaders of NATO. Are they really prepared to

put their money where their -- their money where their mouths are?


Because be under no illusions, this is going to require profound and far reaching -- we'll have profound and far-reaching impacts on every NATO

nation. It's going to need rearmament. It's going to need to build up -- they're going to need to build up their armed forces. They're going to have

to address issues of sustainability and logistics, equipment, manpower training, the whole nine yards. So, there's a long way to go before NATO

can say, it's categorically achieved that, but this is a good start.

AMANPOUR: So, tell me how, describe to us what exactly this number means, 300,000? What does it mean? Who are they? Where will they be deployed? How

long does it take to do that?

SHIRREFF: Well, my understanding, Christiane, is that we're talking, listening to Jens Stoltenberg, the NATO Secretary General's press

conference from yesterday. I think we're talking about each of the enhanced forward battle groups or the majority. The enhanced forward battle groups

run about 1,000 personnel in Estonia, Latvia, and east -- and Lithuania, or Eastern Poland, and together with another four in Bulgaria, Romania,

Slovakia and Hungary being reinforced.

Certainly, I think, we can expect to see the enhanced forward battle groups in the four -- three Baltic states in Eastern Poland, being reinforced to

become a great brigade size. Now, a brigade is around about 5,000 men and women. So, we're talking about four brigades. Now, that's a strong

divisions' worth of NATO in place ready. This is more than a tripwire, it's becoming a deterrent force.

And the balance, I would expect to see being very high readiness and very high readiness forces, probably pre-assigned, captain the country --

maintained in the countries and the states from which they belong, but with pre-based equipment, and regular training and exercising, so that they can

reinforce very quickly if necessary. I don't think we'll see 300,000 yet, we may get to that on -- deployed on NATO's eastern flank. But

nevertheless, this is a start.

AMANPOUR: So, let's just be clear, also that currently, I think there's about 40,000 in this kind of deployment. So, this is, as you say, a

massive, massive upgrade. And you mentioned the Baltic states. So, let me read to you what the Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas said. Last week

she said, NATO could not protect her country from being wiped off the map. This indeed, before this announcement, but if Putin should decide that that

would be a target. So, describe to us the vulnerability of countries like Estonia and the other Baltic nations.

SHIRREFF: Well, Kaja Kallas, the admirable Prime Minister of Estonia is absolutely right, that there is no NATO plan that says NATO will defend to

the hilt, the Baltic states. The NATO plan at the moment is that the Baltic states might be captured by Russia, and then NATO would capture them back,

which is nonsensical. I hope that we are now going to see a fundamental mindset shift in NATO that says, there is going to be a robust plan in

place. Many of us have been calling for that for many, many years. That was the purpose of the book I wrote to try and highlight the risks here.

So, I think that -- I hope that we'll see that with NATO now. A proper plan put in place to defend the Baltic states. They are really vulnerable.

Estonia, 27 percent Russian speaking minority. Latvia, 20 percent Russian speaking minority. Many of those people will be listening on a regular

basis to state-controlled Russian T.V., and absorbing the Putin poison that he pushes out within Russia and more broadly. So, they are vulnerable, and

of course, most recently, we've had saber-rattling about Lithuania, doing no more than imposing the E.U.-agreed sanctions on Russian goods going in

and out of Kaliningrad.

If the Russians were capable of doing so, if they weren't so fixed in the Battle of the Donbass and so desperate to achieve their aims as well with

their grindingly slow attrition. If they had any spare capacity, I have no doubt that they would try and take on establish a corridor through the

Sawaki -- through Lithuania, to the -- to the -- to the little Russian enclave of Kaliningrad. So, they are standing into danger, which highlights

the imperative of really effective NATO deterrence.

AMANPOUR: I mean, as you've been talking, in my mind, I keep hearing the words not one inch. You know, you've heard NATO leaders you've heard the

Secretary General said we will defend every law last inch of NATO territory, and there you are saying that NATO has no plan and Kaja Kallas

said as well, that NATO countries like the Baltics could be safe. Well, that seems to be undergoing a change, as we've discussed.


So, my question is, how do you think this will affect Putin? And do you think Putin given everything he's undergoing in Ukraine, given all the

financial pressure on him now, does he still have wider goals outside of Ukraine, do you think?

SHIRREFF: The answer to your last question is yes, he does. He still sees himself as a new Peter the Great, Catherine the Great of Stalin, and he

would like to preside over a new Russian Empire. He said that for 23 years. Now, he's a man obsessed with achieving that aim. So, if we give in any

letup at all, if the siren voices that have been pushing for a ceasefire and Ukraine gives up a fifth of its territory, are successful, be under no

illusions, Putin will reset, rebuild, reconstitute and reengage when he is ready to do so, and kick it off all over again.

So, but what impact is this going to have on Putin? This is going to send a very powerful message by NATO to Putin of NATO's strength. And the one

thing Russia and Putin respects and fears is strength, where Putin finds weakness, he probes, he digs in he -- and he exploits it. This is an

indication of NATO's strength, providing it is properly backed up. And just picking up your point about planning to recapture Estonia and prevent a

capture it, I bet you now, the planners are hard at work, putting together a plan together with the forces and the reinforcements needed to protect

those Baltic states.

AMANPOUR: So, let's now go to Ukraine itself, where this battle is actually unfolding. We see and you alluded to it, Putin trying to consolidate, yes,

it's slow. Yes, it's attrition, but consolidating surely, slowly, the eastern part of Ukraine. We spoke -- in April, we spoke thereafter, about a

moment and a window of opportunity after their defeats around cave and before they had completely reassembled for the east. A window of

opportunity said people like yourself and Ben Hodges and other experienced military officials to send Ukraine the weapons they needed. It doesn't look

to have happened yet, General Shirreff.

SHIRREFF: You're absolutely right, we talked about the window of opportunity. That window of opportunity which frequently occurs in any

campaign, if you look at any campaign in history, frequently there's a window of opportunity when the initiative if grasp can pass from one to

another. I believe firmly that there was that window of opportunity for Ukraine to have taken the initiative after the Battle of Kyiv if the West

had taken the shackles off, taken the breaks off the supply of the sort of offensive weaponry, heavy offensive weaponry and aircraft that Ukraine


It didn't happen quickly enough. So, we are where we are. What about the Battle of the Donbass? Well, as you say, grinding attrition, several

Donetsk and now appears pretty much to be in Russian hands, the hands (INAUDIBLE) province in Russian hands. I think we can expect to see a reset

by the Russians before they launch a similar battle into the Donetsk, into the other province or the Donbass.

And meanwhile, I think they -- we can assume that they will hold defensively in the south. So, what -- well, I think now, we have to

recognize that Ukraine is bleeding, Ukraine has taken heavy casualties, we had one to 200 killed a day. Now, if you compute that up, by the end of the

year, that's -- at the current rates, that's 35,000 killed, that's significant numbers. Ukraine -- if Ukraine is to prevail, if Ukraine is to

achieve Zelenskyy's aim of defeating Putin, which all of us want, Ukraine needs to build up an offensive maneuver capability, which it has not got

because it's so stretched, and that is going to be the requirement of the West and NATO.

This means building up armored -- probably six to nine armored brigades, with tanks, armored infantry, artillery, engine -- armored engineers, our

defense, all the paraphernalia of combined arms operations together with the logistics, the enablers, the long-range precision artillery and

missiles that are going to be needed to support them. That is going to take time, and it's going to take a united effort by all of NATO to do so. So,

let us hope that that is one of the things that will come out very firmly from this NATO Summit, a willingness by the West, by NATO, to do what needs

to be done to allow the Ukrainians to achieve Russian -- to defeat the Russians.

AMANPOUR: So, are you picking up anything the likes of which are being sort of leaked from Washington and elsewhere, that there are some different

thoughts sort of creeping into the calculations of countries like the United States and others?


Let me just read into this, no doubt, you've been seeing it, you know, advisers to President Biden are debating internally how and if President

Zelenskyy should shift his definition of victory.

And you heard yesterday, he said to the G7, we must end this, presumably win by the end of this year. The Biden people mulling the possibility that

the country has shrunk irreversibly and that they would not be able to get back the kind of land, whether it's status quo ante to February 23rd and

much less, Crimea and what was taken in 2014. Are you picking up any of those doubts now amongst NATO leaders?

SHIRREFF: I'm not surprised to hear them. I think one has to temper clearly, we'll support an ambition that says every Russian soldiers is

evicted from Ukraine. I think we have to be realistic and it may just be that that won't completely happen. I mean, for example, Crimea is a case in


However, I firmly believe that with the right support and the will from the West and from NATO, Zelenskyy, the Ukrainians could achieve at least

pushing back on the Russians in the Donbas or a line of the 24th of February.

I think we have to accept, the Russians are running out of people, they're running out of manpower, they are certainly running out of equipment.

President Putin has bought at a general mobilization, which is an indicator of some of the political tensions inside Russia. And one of the reasons

he's bought at it is because it might not work, which would be a total humiliation.

So, he's running out of people and manpower, and he's had massive casualties and he's -- not only amongst his soldiers but also among the

senior military leadership as well. So, the Russians are going to be increasingly in the back foot. And I think we could, providing the West,

knuckles armed (ph) and provides what needs to be done, see that balance shift towards Ukraine and away from Russia, which is why I say, a

reasonable -- if Ukraine could inflict a tactical defeat on Putin, which a recapture of the Donbas for a line before the 24th of February would mean,

that is a tactical defeat which could have a strategic effect.

AMANPOUR: It's going to take a huge quantum leap jump from NATO countries to enable that to happen, right? I mean, here we heard from Jens

Stoltenberg, the NATO secretary general, today on a different issue but one that also is hurting Russia, and that is the finances and the sanctions and

the -- you know, I guess, they're trying to cripple the wherewithal that he gets from energy. Here's what he said.


JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: The war in Ukraine shows the danger of being too dependent on commodities from authoritarian regimes.

The way Russia is using energy as a weapon of coercion highlights the need to quickly wean off Russian oil and gas.


AMANPOUR: So, do you see that being realistic? Because all we see is the fact that the sanctions have jacked up the price of that oil and gas, that

Putin is pulling in huge amounts of money, that the ruble is one of the most stable and strong currencies right now.

SHIRREFF: Well, I mean, going back to the point, your -- where you first started that last point, of the long haul. You're absolutely right. Of

course, this ramp up has got to take place at a time when economies are running really hot, when energy prices are going through the roof. And of

course, it's going to get colder in the autumn. And so, so heating is going to become -- and oil and energy is going to become important.

But it's a price, I think, that's got to be paid. Easy to say. But this highlights the really vital importance of genuine strategic leadership from

our political masters. And I have yet to hear any of our political masters say, unequivocally, have the moral courage to step up and say what needs to

be done to achieve the sort of peace and security that we all depend on.

AMANPOUR: And I know you've got a frog in your throat, have a little sip of water. But I want to ask you what you make of the British army chief,

George Sanders, who told the conference today, this is our 1937 moment, i.e., the Anschluss, right, the Nazi Anschluss of Austria. We are not at

war but we must act rapidly so that we are not drawn into one through a failure to contain territorial expansion.

I mean, you know, I'm sure you agree with that, but we keep trying to figure out the cognitive dissonance. I know the West is giving a lot or

money, weapon, all the rest of it. And I know what you're just saying, but Putin is marching on regardless and he is consolidating in the East there.

He has a fifth of Ukrainian territory.


SHIRREFF: Yes, well, I agree. I mean, it's good to hear the head of the British Army stand up and say, unequivocally, that the army is going to be

ready to fight. And frankly, it should have been said a long time ago, because that is the purpose of any army.

I disagree about 1937. I think, actually, it's worse than that. I think we're in 1938. And that, arguably, that Sudetenland was 2014. The question

remains, what is our opponent? And the only way that we can ensure that Putin does not press on to another Poland is to defeat Putin and Putinism.

There will be no peace in Europe while he's there.

So, this brings us back to all the points we've already discussed about the effective deterrence, about a change of mindset, about re-arming, about

increased defense expenditure. Massive increases in defense expenditure needed.

I have not -- apart from the German's saying a billion euros into India modernization of the Bhubaneswar, where is Mr. Johnson on this? But he

knows Churchill, he's written a book about Churchill. But there has been no hint of any blood, tears, toil and sweat speech from Mr. Johnson. We need

that from our political leadership because that is what it is going to take.

AMANPOUR: Right. A lot more, even though a lot is happening right now, it's going to take a lot more. General Sir Richard Shirreff, thank you so


And we now are going to break away from this program and join CNN Special Coverage of the January 6th hearings. This last-minute addition to their

schedule will feature an important new witness.