Return to Transcripts main page


Interview With Former U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice; Interview With Residential School Survivor Paul Andrew. Aired 1:37-2p ET

Aired July 25, 2022 - 13:37:00   ET



CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: More serious than a democracy, starting to lose faith in its elections. And when Americans are

told on one hand that their elections are fraudulent, on the other hand, that people are trying to suppress the vote, no wonder they're losing the

faith in their elections.

And so, rather than saying, yes, we have some issues with our elections, I for one believe voter I.D. is really an important thing to do. Because I

want around the world, as secretary, telling people not to do signature matching, right. Because what happens with signature matching? A woman of

my age, and I'm not going to say exactly what that is, but it's like in my 60s, is sitting there as a volunteer, her eyes get tired of signature

matching. So, now, she is throwing out votes or accepting them because she's tired.

You don't -- you -- we need voter I.D. So, when people want to claim that it's voter suppression to have voter I.D. as a ruling. When people want to

claim that it is voter fraud when the attorney general says that it's not, we somehow have got to come back to a sensible place about our elections.

WALTER ISAACSON, JOURNALIST: Like, you seem to be equating the election deniers with people who worry about voter suppression, which may or may not

be that bigger public.

RICE: No, it's not -- I am not trying to equate anything, Walter. I'm just saying that when I hear those terms, they're meant to stop the

conversation. Not to start it. And if we just back off and look at what we actually really need to do with our elections, but no. The -- I've said,

the January 6th situation is sui generis. It is a unique situation in American history.

But my point is we do have serious things that we need to do about our elections. But until we stop calling names, we're not going to be able to

deal with them.

ISAACSON: In your 2019 book, which I really love because it was very pressing, it was called, "To Build a Better World". You talked about the

rise of populism around the world and, sort of, the anti-establishment politics. And you wrote about the four horses of the apocalypse. Populism,

nativism, protectionism, and isolationism.


What do you say now after three years? It seems to have gotten worse.

RICE: Yes, I'm afraid I think it is getting worse. And in part, Walter, I think we all have to take some responsibility that those of us who talk

glowingly about globalization didn't actually think about people who were getting left behind and globalization.

If you're the unemployed coal miner or the unemployed steelworker in Great Britain, globalization didn't treat you very fairly. And people skills

didn't keep pace with what was needed. And it's -- by the way, not just globalization, it's automation as well.

And so, I think the only way to beat back those four horsemen of the apocalypse is to make opportunity real for people and the world in which we

live, not the nostalgic world of the past. And we've got a lot of work to do. It's -- you know, that I'm a great proponent of looking heart at are K-

12 education system. Looking hard at skip bills (ph) development. We need a human potential initiative in the United States because if people don't

really believe that they can get ahead, they're going to be susceptible to the siren songs of populists who will tell them it's not their fault, it's

somebody else's fault.

ISAACSON: Secretary Condoleezza Rice, thank you for joining us.

RICE: Thank you, Walter. It's great to be with you.


SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Next, we go north to Canada where Pope Francis is visiting on what the Vatican is calling a penitential

pilgrimage. He's there to apologize for the abuse of indigenous children in catholic-run residential schools. A dark chapter in Canada's history that

made global headlines after hundreds of unmarked graves were found at residential schools last year. Take a listen to some of what the Pope said



POPE FRANCIS (through translator): I have come to your native lands to tell you in person of my sorrow to implore God's forgiveness, healing, and

reconciliation to express my closeness and to pray with you and for you.


SIDNER: Well, that apology has been a long time coming as our Paula Newton reports.


PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): It is a papal trip like no other. One that will see Pope Francis humble himself on behalf of

the catholic church and apologize to Canada's indigenous peoples for years of abuse and harm.

Only months ago, a few could imagine his journey here when the Pope was calling a journey of penance for what a Canadian national commission says

was cultural genocide. At least 150,000 indigenous children separated from their families and forced to attend residential institutions, where

thousands endured physical, sexual, and emotional abuse from priests, nuns, and school staff.

VICTORIA MCINTOSH, RESIDENT SCHOOL SURVIVOR: Kneel down the way you made us kneel down as little kids and ask for that forgiveness.

NEWTON (voiceover): Victoria McIntosh was taken from her family at the age of four.

MCINTOSH: My grans made this for me.

NEWTON (voiceover): This was the coach she said she wore when her mom dropped her off at a catholic institution in Manitoba in the 1960s.

MCINTOSH: That nun took it off of me through it at my mom.

NEWTON (voiceover): McIntosh said the nun then called her mother a savage. An incident, she said foreshadowed years of abuse. She says her mother

never forgave herself.

MCINTOSH: And I told her -- I said, it's not your fault. It wasn't your fault. What choice did you have?

NEWTON (voiceover): McIntosh says she was sexually assaulted by a priest for years when she was only a child.

MCINTOSH: He violated me in ways that no child should ever go through. And I would break down and I would cry thinking about it, what he'd done. And I

wonder why? What did I do to you?

NEWTON (voiceover): McIntosh says that priest was 92-year-old Arthur Masse. It was only in June when he was charged with indecent assault. He has not

entered a plea. And it is the impunity of the catholic church's actions that hangs over this visit. Even as dozens of indigenous communities now

searched the grounds of these institutions, where hundreds of unmarked graves have already been identified.

NEWTON (on camera): As indigenous communities work to recover their lost children, there is still much ambivalence about the Pope's visits and his


The Pope was blunt. He called it a journey of penance.


CHIEF DERRICK HENDERSON, SAGKEENG FIRST NATION: I don't know. That's an interesting interpretation of it, right? You know, for me, it's not a

journey, right? This was more than a journey for our people, I think. And a journey will never end, right? It's going to be there forever.

NEWTON (voiceover): Pope Francis says he acknowledges that. But hopes that this historic gesture of atonement will bring some measure of relief and



SIDNER: That was our Paula Newton reporting for you there. For more on this, I'm joined now by Paul Andrew. A survivor of the Catholic-run

residential school.

Paul, thank you for joining the show.


SIDNER: Paul, I hope you don't mind, I'd like to begin with your story. First and foremost, how did you end up going to one of these residential


ANDREW: Well, I was eight years old. And, I remember my mom taking me down to the beach. In those days we just had a plane coming in on floats (ph)

and she was crying, and there was three of us. And we didn't want to go, obviously. We didn't know what was going on. And then we got on the plane.

I don't remember the first year I've spent in residential school. And that's -- I was eight years old.

And then later on I went back, I was in my teenage years, and it wasn't so bad. But the residential school was very difficult because of the

militaristic atmosphere. The abuse that the report was talking about. And, you know, times like this I remember my teammates, my roommates, my

classmates and all the other people. There were a lot of people that obviously did not make it home. So, I think a lot about those kids, those

people that did not make it home.

And I struggled toward my years. I did well in my work. But for a long time, I lost the language. I lost the stories of -- and songs. And

everything about who I was. That was a very difficult time for a long time.

SIDNER: It has been described as cultural genocide. Do you agree with that?

ANDREW: Oh, we are -- definitely agree with that. And I -- I'm hoping that the Pope would acknowledge that, that in his apology there would be

genocide and there. Essentially, I think a lot of people agree that the church gave colonizers permission to do what they did.

And so, one of the things that I certainly felt, myself, was that when I spoke my language, they would definitely strap me. They would definitely

hit me because of those kinds of things. That I know other students were the same. And that the policy of the Canadian government, the prime

minister apologized for this was -- he said, we had a policy to kill the Indian in the child. So, it was the church who was -- their responsible for

carrying out that policy.

So, nowadays, they did not necessarily kill the Indian in the child, but they left some very wounded, deeply, deeply wounded children that are still

struggling. I'm in my 70s and I'm still struggling on that. And when I see something like this and people talking about their experiences, a lot of my

own experiences come back to me.

SIDNER: Would you be willing to share one of your hardest experiences that stays with you and that has left you scarred and struggling?

ANDREW: One of the things that sexual abuse does is that it severs any kind of relationship that you have with people. And we as indigenous people,

live on the line. And we believe that we are connected to everything. Our relationship is based on all of those connections. We have certain

responsibility that goes with those connections. And we have connections with the immediate family, and the circle gets wider.

What has happened with sexual abuse, particularly, is that severed those relationships. And when you're a young child, you don't realize that. You

begin to think that this -- a new way of relationship is the way to do that. It's OK to hit people. It's OK to be angry. It's OK to be hateful.

Because those are the kinds of things that came up to my mind.

And I think that was difficult to really go through because the people that I come from are loving. They're very, very careful to take care of the

young people as well as anybody else. There's a lot of unconditional love. There's harmony within the community.


Not only with the elders and other youth, but also the environment, like I said. And all of that connected. So, when residential school was over, and

I went back to the community, I couldn't fit into the indigenous world. And couldn't fit in my own world.

And one of the things that I know is that a lot of my teammates, my classmates, my roommates, say the same thing. It's, like, we're just in the

middle of two cultures that we did not know how to deal with.

SIDNER: Sort of, suspended in the air, almost. I've talked to several First Nations people about this, and they always say that they feel this shame.

But the shame should be on the adults and the institutions that perpetrated this on you.

I want to read you would Pope Francis said. A very striking apology. He said, sorry for the ways in which, regrettably, many Christians supported

the colonizing mentality of the powers that oppressed the indigenous peoples. I am sorry. I ask for forgiveness, in particular, for the ways in

which many members of the church and the religious communities cooperated, not least, through their indifference, in projects of cultural destruction,

and enforced assimilation promoted by the governments of that time which culminated in the system of residential schools.

That is quite an apology. And certainly, does not erase the pain and the suffering that you still go through to this day. But what do you make of

Pope Francis's apology?

ANDREW: Well, it goes a long way. This is probably, like you said, a very deep and heartfelt. And I think it does go a long, long way. Now, what we

need is some action to follow up on that. People, like myself, are going through some tough mental anguish in some cases, right now, as we talk.

Especially when we talk about unmarked graves. We think about our children. We think about a lot of other people that never made it back.

So, how do we support those people? That's what we need. We need to be able to have support systems set in place, and the church really helping. The

church has made these rather alarming decisions. For example, they had agreed to raise $25 million to help with the healing. They skipped out of

that. They spent money on lawyers, and they built a church. And they have - - what they have also tried to do was as parishioners for collections to pay for some of those agreements. Our deal is not with parishioners.

SIDNER: Paul, you're looking for --

ANDREW: It is with the church.

SIDNER: -- you're looking for compensation in so many different ways. And I just want to say to you that I am so sorry that you experienced this really

life-changing and generational issue that will be -- something that stays with you for your whole life. I hope that you get some relief. Paul, thank

you so much for joining the show.

ANDREW: And thank you, Sara.

SIDNER: Such an important story. And our thanks to all of the survivors who are speaking out.

And finally, a tear-jerking surprise for the audience at this weekend's Newport Folk Festival. Legendary singer, Joni Mitchell graced the stage in

Rhode Island alongside Brandi Carlile. It was a rare appearance for Mitchell who suffered a brain aneurysm in 2015. Take a listen.




SIDNER: You go, Joni. She still got it. Surrounded by Wynonna Judd, you saw there behind her, and other musical legends. The pair sang 13 classics,

like, "Both Sides Now" and "Big Yellow Taxi". It was Mitchell's first full set since 2002. She even performed an electric guitar solo. It is so great

to see her back in the saddle again.

And that is it for us for now. You can catch us online and on our podcast. Thank you so much for watching. And goodbye from New York.