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Amanpour
Interview with Former British Ambassador to U.S. David Manning; Interview with Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney; Interview with Buckingham Palace Royal Communications Former Director Sally Osman; Interview with The New York Times London Bureau Chief Mark Landler; Interview with Composer Andrew Lloyd Webber. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 19, 2022 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to "Amanpour". Here's what's coming up.
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A final lament played by the queen's own piper. As Britain remembers Queen Elizabeth's lifetime service, devotion, and faith. And now welcomes a new
king and a new age. I speak with queen's former ambassador to the United States, and also to her former head of communications. I also talked to the
Irish foreign minister, Simon Coveney, a witness to her historic visit there.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour, outside parliament in London. After a day in what was really mourning and also
gratitude but also a day of change. The world has witnessed the funeral for a queen. A ritual that was never before seen on live television. And for
the very first time in most of our lives, the United Kingdom now welcomes a new king. Here's how the reverend David Hoyle, who's dean of Westminster
spoke of the queen's legacy.
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VERY REVEREND DAVID HOYLE, DEAN OF WESTMINSTER: With gratitude, we remember her unswerving commitment to a high calling over so many years as
queen and head of the Commonwealth. With admiration, we recall her lifelong sense of duty and dedication to her people. With thanksgiving, we praise
God for her constant example of Christian faith and devotion. With affection, we recall her love for her family and her commitment to the
causes she held dear.
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AMANPOUR: It's not only this country where people have been coming out to mourn the queen. But also, around the world. In Hong Kong, this was the
queue of people wishing to pay their respects outside the British consulate there today. And in Paris, for instance, a metro station was temporarily
named Elizabeth II just for the day. And in Nepal, Gurkha veterans who fought for the British army held a Buddhist prayer ceremony for the queen
in Kathmandu.
And now, the world turns to what lies ahead. The reign of King Charles III. Correspondent Max Foster was there for this very British form of pageantry
and mourning.
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MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Prime ministers, presidents, leaders and dignitaries from all around the world, more than
2,000 inside London's Westminster Abbey, join together in chorus.
"The Lord Is My Shepherd", repeatedly, the queen's favorite hymn. Sang during her wedding to Prince Philip in this very hall when she was a 21-
year-old princess. The younger royal generation, Charlotte and George, were also in the procession. Their attendance something that Prince and Princess
of Wales took time to consider, CNN understands
Decades of meticulous preparation and centuries of sort of tradition. The queen was instrumental in planning this funeral. Her family escorted the
family drawn by 142 royal navy personnel. The short journey from Westminster Hall to Westminster Abbey. Draped in the royal standard and
topped with the imperial state crown, the sovereign's orbit, and the scepter. Amid the wreath, a handwritten note from the king, in loving and
devoted memory, Charles R. The R short for Rex, the king.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Few leaders receive the outpouring of love that we have seen.
FOSTER (voiceover): After readings and blessings for two minutes, the attendance, the choir, and the nation each fell silent. Big Ben tolled 96
times. Guns unloaded as the procession continued on its final journey. Crowds lined the streets all the way along the route from London to
Windsor.
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Military flank the three-mile-long walk leading to the castle. At the end of the service, in a deeply symbolic moment, never before seen on camera,
the crown jewels were removed from the coffin. And the most senior official in the royal household, the Lord Chamberlain, broke his wand of office and
placed it on the coffin, symbolizing the end of his in his monarch's service. The queen was then lowered into the royal vault, and by her
requests the sovereign piper played one final lament.
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AMANPOUR: Max Foster reporting there. And nobody does it quite like the British. Such history, such pomp, such royalty. Yes, maybe antique but died
in the will of the people here. And my first guest tonight is Sir David Manning who attended the funeral today. He has served as Britain's
ambassador to the United States.
Sir David Manning, welcome back to the program. We talked to you in the days following Queen Elizabeth's death. But now that you were there to
witness the actual funeral with all its pomp and glory, just give us a little sense, from your perspective, of the atmosphere.
DAVID MANNING, FORMER BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Well, it was majestic, of course. But it was also very moving. And it was the culmination of this
10-day period we've had in this country where there's been this great outpouring of grief. But there is also been a period of reflection and a
period of great gratitude. And I think it's an extraordinary life that can evoke so many different responses and people over this short period of
time.
I think if you ask me for my -- the most poignant moment in the service to me was when the playing -- piper played the lament. I was sitting almost
opposite the balcony where he played this and I had just seen that another piper did the same thing in the internment ceremony in service in -- that
took place this afternoon at Windsor. And it is a very moving moment as the piper turns away and the pipes disappearing into the distance. It is a
moment when you realize this is closure. This is the end.
AMANPOUR: It really is. It struck me as well because the lament, the Last Post, the Reveille it's often played on military battlefields as well and
as part of active front line military ceremony. And the queen, obviously, was the commander of all the armed forces. Talk to me about her
relationship with the military, not just in the ceremonial way but really throughout her life. She came, you know, into public life during World War
II.
MANNING: She did, and it's been a constant theme. The military who always had a very important role to play in the lives of monarchs. But she was in
the army during the second world war. She married a naval officer who most people think would've gone right to the very top of the British navy
irrespective of whether he had been married to the monarch or not. Her children have served in the armed forces. And it is a very personal bond, I
think, that she had with the military in this country. And certainly, it would be continued by the king.
AMANPOUR: And Sir David Manning, amongst your many duties over the decades for this government and for the monarch, she also asked you to be adviser
to the two young princes, now Prince of Wales William and also Harry. What was your role back then and how did you maybe see what they might be
destined for, particularly the Prince of Wales?
MANNING: Well, I think my role was, really, as far as I could, to help them as they started out on their life of public service and public duty as
members of the royal family. They were already serving in the British armed forces. This dates back to earlier point. And they did it with great
distinction, actually.
But there came a point in their early twenties when the queen felt that they must now start to think about what sort of role they were going to
play in the life of the monarchy. Conscious as she was that in due course, Prince William was likely to become the Prince of Wales, which indeed he
now has become. And in due course, the king.
And so, I think what we -- and I wasn't alone in trying to help them to set up their household. And what we were trying to do was just help them to
decide for themselves how they want to shape the contribution they wanted to make.
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It was, if you like, facilitation. It was hoping that one day an experience in some way would be useful as they decided how they wanted to take their
lives forward in serving the monarchy.
AMANPOUR: I had mentioned that amongst your many positions was former ambassador of -- from, you know, Britain to the United States. We've heard
what President Biden has said, you know, paying tribute to Queen Elizabeth II and many others. Including President Obama who released this tribute,
this soundbite, part of his tribute to her, and I want to play it to you and ask you about it.
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BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The first time that I met the queen was visiting London. She reminded me very much of my grandmother, which
surprised me, not just an appearance but also in manner. Very gracious but also no nonsense. Wry sense of humor. She could not have been more kind or
thoughtful to me and Michelle.
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AMANPOUR: And it's -- he also said -- and I think both the president and first lady has said that the queen also was very kind to their daughters
and had invited them to take part in certain aspects of life here in the U.K.
But I just wonder what you make of the queen's role in the special relationship. She's not the prime minister, she's not able to take any, you
know, any sort of laws or any policy decisions. But what was her role in terms of soft power?
MANNING: Well, let me start, if I may, by just single what a lovely tribute that is by President Obama. And I think how brilliantly he's
captured the many aspects of the queen. Both this wonderful sense of humor. This warmth. This lack of any sort of bombasity. But at the same time this
-- as he put it, I think, no nonsense approach. And it rings very true.
I think the queen has been enormously important in the special relationship that sometimes it's because -- that's because she isn't the prime minister.
She doesn't come trailing all sorts of political baggage with her. But she is -- has -- well, she was the, if you like, part of this living texture of
the relationship. She had been five times in a United States, I think, on a state visit. She had American friends. Not least through her love of horses
and races. And she was always very happy when she went to America.
And certainly, one of my most -- my strongest memories of my time as ambassador in the United States was when she came for her final state
visit. And I think there was something that everybody could identify about it. She was somebody who was friendly. She had a sort of transparent
rudeness about her. And she -- I think, was something -- somebody that everybody wanted, if you like, to be touched by. And this is a sort of
magic of both majesty and humility.
AMANPOUR: So, importantly now, there's a new king in the United Kingdom, King Charles III. There's a new prime minister. And there is a new role --
a diminished role, frankly, for this country on the world stage. Can you see this moment being a moment to reset? And if so, in what way or is it
just simply going to be part of history and part of politics that Britain pays less of a, you know, key role in the transatlantic alliance?
MANNING: I think, at the moment, I would challenge the view that Britain is playing a lesser role in the transatlantic alliance. I think we have
been very active indeed in the last few months in helping and sustaining and encouraging others to do the same when it comes to Ukraine.
I think going back to the monarchy though, the -- one of the things about the British monarchy is its extraordinary appeal. A sort of soft power
appeal. And I think there'll be real continuity. I think those who are skeptical about our new king would be disappointed. I think he's going to
be a very good king.
He's somebody who has already traveled the world. He knows an enormous number of world leaders. He gave a reception last night for over 100 world
leaders, as I understand it. And he has made it perfectly clear in the first week of his reign that he intends to be just as engaged with the
Commonwealth. Just as committed as his mother was to the idea of the inclusive community of nations and ethnic differences and so on. And that's
not just at a national. I think he sees the Commonwealth as a vehicle for that too.
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So, I think that the importance of what these days is called soft power will continue with our new king.
AMANPOUR: All right. Sir David Manning, certainly the world has seen the soft power projected from here in the U.K. around this incredible
transition. And we appreciate you being with us tonight.
Now, with about 2,000 attendees at the funeral. Space inside Westminster Abbey was extremely limited. For those who couldn't be there, parks and
cinemas across the U.K. screened the proceedings. And one of the first readings came from Patricia Scotland. She is Secretary-General of the
Commonwealth of Nations. Here's what she said.
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PATRICIA SCOTLAND, SECRETARY-GENERAL, COMMONWEALTH OF NATIONS: Thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. For as much as ye know that your labor
is not in vain in the Lord. Thanks be to God.
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AMANPOUR: And of course, steadfastness has been a critical aspect of Elizabeth II's legacy. As well as her diplomatic skills as we just were
saying. Overseeing the transition from imperial Britain to the more modern Commonwealth of Nations.
And in an extraordinary gesture of reconciliation, she agreed to an official state visit to the Republic of Ireland back in 2011. The Irish
foreign minister, Simon Coveney, had served then as ministerial escort for the queen for that visit to his native city, Cork. And he's joining us from
there now.
Welcome to the program. Simon Coveney, it's good to talk to you again. As you watched this all unfold --
SIMON COVENEY, IRISH FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: -- and as you, you know, spent really important time with her on this visit. What were your reflections about today in her passing.
COVENEY: Well, first of all, you know, today is a global event. You know, it is when people think about the queen, they think about the British
monarch. They think about the late Queen Elizabeth II. You know, she has been a monarch for 70 years, which is a lifetime and more for most us.
So, you know, first of all, I think there is a country in mourning, the United Kingdom. But also, many other countries around the world,
particularly within the Commonwealth, have been morning also for the last 10 days or so. And I think it's a -- it really is in a very British way, an
extraordinary sendoff for an extraordinary person who has been a pillar of dignity, of grace, of generosity. But also, of strength for the United
Kingdom for as long as anybody can remember.
And that's why I think for 11 days the United Kingdom has really come to a standstill. And many of us in Ireland too, I think, have been greatly
saddened by her passing because we know the significance of what she has achieved as a head of state. She chose to come to Ireland in 2011, which
was the first visit of a monarch since Irish independence.
And that was a significant gesture. She wanted to do it. We know that. And Ireland was nervous about that visit. We weren't quite sure how Irish
people would respond. But from the very moment she stepped off the plane, dressed in green, full of smiles, and the generosity and respect with which
she addressed the complexity of British-Irish history. With all of its pain and trauma at different times, I think won over a nation next door here in
Ireland.
And ever since then, I think, people in Ireland have held her in great affection. I had the privilege of accompanying her and her husband on much
of that visit. But in particular, the last day was what I remember most because there was a lot of formality. And a lot of history in the first few
days when she visited the Garden of Remembrance and paid her respects to Irish people who had lost their lives in the War of Independence. And the
sensitivity of that won't be lost on Irish people or British people, indeed, listening to this show.
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But on the last day, it was different. She was much more relaxed. The visit had gone very well. And I accompanied her to a marketplace in the city of
Cork, which is called the English market. And when we came out of that indoor food market, she turned to me and she said, I'm going to cross the
road now and I'm going to meet the public.
And in that visit, she'd been in Ireland for nearly a week and there was no direct interaction with the public because of security reasons. And of
course, I said to her, are you sure your security detail are OK with that? And she looked at me with steely eyes and she said, I'm going to cross the
street and I'm going to meet the public. And she did.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
COVENEY: She spent about 15 minutes talking to people, gently shaking hands, smiling. And it was a moment, really, in Irish history when a lot of
the tension of the past was put to rest. And I know that visit meant an awful lot to her.
And indeed, subsequently her son, now King Charles III, has come to Ireland virtually every year since, except the COVID years for obvious reasons when
he couldn't. And he's made a pledge to visit every county in Ireland. Which is a very significant commitment indeed.
So, the royal family --
AMANPOUR: It is.
COVENEY: -- see it as part of their duty to sustain and protect the relationship between Britain and Ireland. Which is a very close one but of
course a very complex one in the context of history as well.
AMANPOUR: You know, and you spoke about all of the incredible history that went before this visit, obviously. And Irish independence and how she, in
fact, recognized even those who had fought and died for independence. And this is going to resonate, of course, with our American audience as well
for whom -- for many of whom Ireland is a really significant touchstone.
And I want to ask you about this thing that she said. She spoke about being able to bow to the past but not be bound to it. Just the significance of
that, because clearly, she had suffered -- clearly in Northern Ireland in which she visited afterwards. But that is a real message, isn't it? And
it's resonant today as well with so many people who are bound by the bitterness of the past.
COVENEY: Absolutely. And I mean, don't forget that she and indeed her son lost somebody very close to them in a terrorist attack, in a brutal
terrorist attack in Northern Ireland. And so, for her to speak like that, which was effectively giving a signal to people to look forward and not
backwards. To accept but not forget the past, but instead to try to build and forge a different future that's not held back by bitterness and
division and polarization of opinion. And instead, something more generous and respectful and outward looking.
And I really think she represented that kind of thinking which was a global thinking. But one of generosity and respect, and one of equality, which I
think is what meant so much to Irish people. She clearly spoke to us as an equal as opposed to a colony or any other form of relationship that indeed
may have been impacted by history.
And that made an extraordinary impact on ordinary people in Ireland who, I think, since then have held Queen Elizabeth in a -- in their hearts in a
very different way, perhaps, to the way in which they would've perceived and seen British royalty before that visit. And while it wasn't a hugely --
AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister --
COVENEY: -- significant visit for many British people, for Irish people, and in particular for Irish people living in Britain, that visit was a
moment of change in terms of the British-Irish relationship for the better.
AMANPOUR: And I wonder if her later visit to Northern Ireland was perhaps more important for the British people because, of course, -- I mean, I
don't need to tell you but she obviously, again, came resplendent in green. She met Martin McGuinness formerly, you know, in the IRA council who then
turn to politics and peacemaking. And there was that big smile between them, but nonetheless, you know, there had been an assassination of her
aunt and by marriage, Lord Mountbatten, -- her uncle rather. And today, the head of Sinn Fein actually did come to the funeral and this is what
Michelle O'Neil said on the passing of the queen.
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MICHELLE O'NEIL, SINN FEIN VICE PRESIDENT: I think that both Martin McGuinness and Queen Elizabeth, herself, they have a very significant role
in terms of (INAUDIBLE) very strong message that we have healing to do with some people, between our two islands. Between the people who live on this
island. And I think that both of them, they had a very significant role in helping us all to step forward and actually to step outside of our comfort
zones. I think in life, that's really, really important.
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AMANPOUR: Well, I'm not sure whether everybody could hear that. But she was talking about reconciliation and how also, you know, they were getting
out of their comfort zone by having the queen there. What kind of role -- what kind of effect, do you think, it had on the British that she went to
Northern Ireland and met specifically with the leaders on Sinn Fein?
COVENEY: Well, I think she was somebody who changed public opinion by her actions. And I think she very deliberately chose to meet and shake hands
with somebody who, in many ways, was a symbol of the terrorism of the past. But who has some -- since been somebody who entered politics and of course
supported the peace process strongly, that's the late Martin McGuinness.
But I think by a queen shaking the hand of somebody who clearly was involved in atrocities in the past was giving a signal to the public that
it is time to move on, think differently, and believe in a peace process on the island of Ireland. And believe in a new relationship between Britain
and Ireland. Which is based in friendship -- on friendship and trust and respect.
And she was all of those things. And she did it so gracefully. She didn't speak a lot, but when she did, people listened. But it was how she held
herself, what she wore, who she met, who she chose to visit, and then how she interacted with them.
She was a person who I think has a changed in a significant way, the relationship between Britain and Ireland. And given a signal to both the
public in Britain and in Ireland on how to behave.
AMANPOUR: Indeed.
COVENEY: And how to move forward --
AMANPOUR: Yes.
COVENEY: -- on the basis of respect.
AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister, thank you. And of course, we know that there is a big movement for reconciliation and joining up the island of Ireland.
As well as there's, you know, big movement for nationalism and independents in Scotland and the like. And we'll see how it all survives her passing.
Thank you for being with us.
And amongst those offering prayers at today's funeral was the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COTTRELL, ARCHBISHOP OF YORK: We give thanks to God for Queen Elizabeth's loyalty to the faith she inherited through her baptism and
confirmation, and affirmed at her coronation. For her unswerving devotion to the gospel. And for her steadfast service as supreme governor of the
Church of England.
Lord, we beseech thee to keep thy household, the church, in continual Godliness. That through thy protection, she may be free from all
adversities and devoutly given to serve thee in all good works to the glory of thy name through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, he is the second most senior archbishop in the Church of England here. And when we spoke last week, he told me that having a role in
today's services would be a great privilege and an honor.
Queen Elizabeth's capacity to command respect was a tribute to her in eight communication skill as director of royal communications at Buckingham
Palace. Sally Osman worked closely with the queen for several years. In fact, between 2014 and 2018. And Sally Osman is joining me now.
Welcome to the program.
SALLY OSMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR OF ROYAL COMMUNICATIONS, BUCKINGHAM PALACE: Very nice to be here. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So, we've heard so many reflections. I need to start, obviously, by asking you for yours because you worked very closely. I know you even
visited Northern Island with her once. Not on that occasion later but later. What does her loss mean to you?
OSMAN: Well, I suppose there are two aspects to it. One is the professional loss. I worked with her, as many did, as a professional
adviser. She listened. She took advice. And she trusted the professionals around her to do to -- she let them get on with doing the job basically,
which is fantastic. That's what you want in a boss.
But she was also -- I mean, personally, today, I feel emotionally exhausted. Because there have been those amazing moments that we rehearsed
many times. But seeing at the end, the coffin going down, you can talk about that in theory so many times, I have to say, I wept.
AMANPOUR: Well, I can imagine because we sort of didn't know whether we were going to actually see it and whether the palace would allow us to see
it. And it seems to be fairly last-minute that they let us actually see it live. Perhaps they might have released some images afterwards.
But tell me about that then. About rehearsing these things over the years. I mean, some might think that's ghoulish. But how did that work? Was the
queen involved in rehearsals in, sort of, tweaks?
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OSMAN: Well, she was involved in the planning.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OSMAN: Not the rehearsals, necessarily.
AMANPOUR: No.
OSMAN: Because she -- and actually, most of the royal family had deeply pragmatic. You know, they want things to work properly which is why she was
so involved in the order a service for today at both Westminster Abbey and at St. George's. And those little personal touches, the fact that she was
involved in the design of the state hearse, you know, maximum window so that maximum amount of visibility to the public.
AMANPOUR: And lights from the inside.
OSMAN: Lights from the inside.
AMANPOUR: It's pretty amazing, yes.
OSMAN: It was. So, all those, sort of, touches. And -- I mean, I think one of the most touching things today was that astonishing display of flowers
on top of the coffin.
AMANPOUR: Oh, wasn't it beautiful?
OSMAN: It was so beautiful.
AMANPOUR: Yes, we all commented on that. It's sort of -- like garden flowers. Almost wild flowers, almost.
OSMAN: Well, they were. It was at the king's requests that flowers from Buckingham Palace has and Highgrove should go into the wreath. And the
colors were meant to reflect the royal standard. And it had -- let me get this right, rosemary for remembrance, myrtle for happy marriage. And the
myrtle actually came from a plant that was a plan that had been planted from a sprig that was in the queen's original wedding bouquet which is
incredible. An English oak for health and steadfastness.
AMANPOUR: So, Sally Osman, you and I met several years ago during your tenure. Because it's every journalists' dream to interview the queen. So,
somewhat quixotically I came to you and laid out a wonderful rationale why we should do it. And I just want to ask you now in the fullness of time,
why does she never sit for an interview? I'm not saying with me, but with anybody. She just didn't.
She had conversations with the likes of David Attenborough, with expert on the crown jewels. I remember those were two, "Interviews" that really
weren't. But why -- what was integral to her view of the mystique, maybe, in her not wanting to sit down with any journalist?
OSMAN: Well, I think there's a humility about the queen. There was a humility. I keep getting my tenses wrong.
AMANPOUR: It's alright.
OSMAN: There was humility about the queen that she thought why would people necessarily be interested? She would talk about things she knew were
important, like the symbolism of the crown jewels, for example.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OSMAN: Particularly if it was around a particular anniversary of the coronation or something like that. I think the closest she ever actually
came to doing an interview was with -- there was a BBC documentary some years ago that was shown quite recently called, "Elizabeth R".
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
OSMAN: And it was almost a fly on the wall documentary. And I think that's almost the closest she's come to being interviewed. But I'd say -- she'd
think, well, what can I say? You know, people can see what I do. Why do I need to explain?
AMANPOUR: Because she said famously, and we've been quoting it, you know, "I have to be seen to be believed".
OSMAN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, her clothes were very colorful. And you just mentioned she was involved in that incredible window hearse. In other words, you could
really see through it. It was illuminated. We know that the funeral service in Westminster Abbey has never before been filmed. The service in St.
George's Chapel, particularly aspects of it have never before been filmed. Why does she think that was important? And this was years ago that she
decided on this.
OSMAN: I think it's because it shows the working of the monarchy. The filming of the accession council, for example, that had never been done
before.
AMANPOUR: That too, of course, yes.
OSMAN: And that was a very important development because, you know, it may seem slightly arcane to people. The language used and the way the heralds
dressed and all that sort of thing. But it shows that there is this smooth transition from monarch to monarch.
So, the seeing is believing thing, she really did believe in that. And it manifested itself in so many ways. You're right, the clothes. I think with
the -- Angela Kelly, who was, you know, her dresser -- personal assistant and dresser.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OSMAN: Gave older women permission to wear hue, you know, block colors. And yes, she could be seen to be believed. The green in Ireland, you were
talking about it was so important. And on other occasions, you know, she would complement the surrounding she was in. That was very deliberate being
seem to be believed.
There were times I had to stand in for the queen because we were the same, sort of, height. So, I had to go in and make sure that the lectern wasn't
too high. The microphones weren't blocking out her eyes, all that kind of stuff. Just so that the queen could then step into the frame and be seen to
be believed. She supported social media. Many courtiers would have said, you know, thought it was Pandora's box. She said no, no, no. This is very
important because this is about explaining our work.
AMANPOUR: And yet it, sort of, came back to haunt her grandchildren for sure. Certainly, Prince Harry. And social media can have a very, very
corrosive impact. So, I just want to ask you because the royal family, particularly the queen, has been very good to the press, i.e., newspapers,
magazines, TV documentaries, films -- I mean, theaters, they all sell out when the queen is a vital part of it.
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And they've been pretty good to the press too. But there had been some very, very severe ups and downs. I mean, with the onslaught of a -- some
certain behavior in the royal family and then the reaction from the press. As communications director, how difficult was that to navigate?
OSMAN: I was quite lucky and I lived quite through -- I worked through quite a stable period.
AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed.
OSMAN: There were lots of very happy events. 90th birthdays, longest reigning monarch, so on and so forth. The wedding in 2018. So, I was quite
lucky. I don't deal with that many crises. There were a few. Particularly when people try to bring the queen into politics. Queen backs Brexit, I
don't know if you remember that headline --
AMANPOUR: I do remember.
OSMAN: -- on the front page of "The Sun".
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OSMAN: Which --
AMANPOUR: Did she?
OSMAN: I don't think so. She can ask very pertinent questions, that's for sure, or she could.
AMANPOUR: You've just given me some breaking news, Sally.
OSMAN: I know. She could ask very pertinent questions. But I think the -- that alleged conversation came from a period, I think, before anybody had
actually invented the word Brexit. So, no. She was very astute, as will be the king now.
AMANPOUR: But she was also very astute during the Scottish Referendum when she told people almost, incidentally, as she was doing a walkabout, I
think, after church in Scotland. I hope people think very carefully about what they're about to do. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. But that was seen as a
signal.
OSMAN: But what was it a signal for?
AMANPOUR: To be careful.
OSMAN: To think carefully.
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
OSMAN: To think carefully. So, she wasn't saying one way or the other.
AMANPOUR: People could read into it what they want.
OSMAN: Exactly. And that's part of what the monarchy's mystique is --
AMANPOUR: Actually, you're right.
OSMAN: -- about projecting.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OSMAN: People project. Families project onto the royal families. You know, there will be many families across the country, across the world now, who
will be projecting their own sadness and losses on to these particular all events.
AMANPOUR: Absolutely.
OSMAN: You know, it will have triggered a lot in people. And that's what the royal family is always does, really.
AMANPOUR: Sally Osman, thank you so much.
OSMAN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Former director of communications at Buckingham Palace.
Now, Mark Landler is the London bureau chief for "The New York Times". It's his job to explain Britain to Americans, and vice versa.
Mark, welcome back to the program. We've talked a lot about the -- specifics about Britain before. And now, the royal passing and the queen,
herself. America's an independent republic, broke away famously from this country and yet, people are still so gripped by it. How did you find
yourself covering this?
MARK LANDLER, LONDON BUREAU CHIEF, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, you know, as I think I've said to you before, Christiane, it never ceases to astonish me
the level of interests that anything I write about the royal family gets. We routinely shatter our audience numbers and, I'm sure the numbers for
today will be astronomical.
So, you're right. There is this sort of magic pull that the royal family still exerts. Not just in the U.S., obviously, but all around the world,
and all the places that were once part of the British empire. And may today be still part of the realm in some informal relationship or other such as
the Commonwealth. So, this was, you know, a true genuine global event on a scale of perhaps we really haven't seen for the last several decades.
AMANPOUR: And President Biden was here. And we just talked earlier about some of the tributes that were also sent out by President Obama and other
American presidents who she had met during her reign. You -- give me the American side of the special relationship and the queen's particular use of
soft power diplomacy.
LANDLER: Well, you -- as you know, the queen met every president going back to Harry S. Truman. She wasn't queen when she met Truman, with the
exception of course of Lyndon Johnson. And so, the queen was sort of one of the kind of -- sort of -- you know -- sort of, it was the secret element of
the relationship between the United States and Britain. Which is founded, of course, on many very concrete things. The NATO relationship. The fact
that for years, Britain was a primary bridge for the U.S. to understanding the European Union. All the social, historic, and cultural ties that go
back to those early days.
But I think the presidents as a rule, no matter which party that came from or how they define themselves were really beguiled by the queen. The
institution of royalty. Whether it was Ronald Reagan riding horses with the queen or Donald Trump who always managed to describe her as a spectacular
woman. But there was really this, sort of, added element that the queen gave that, I think, underpinned the relationship.
And it'll be very interesting to see whether in the era of King Charles, that changes it all and whether some of that magic is lost or if not
changed. Charles a very different person. He doesn't have the decades of relationships that the queen had.
[13:40:00]
So, it'll be interesting as we move into this next phase how that changes.
AMANPOUR: Well, I was going to ask you that. I mean, you've been reporting on all aspects of this. And I wonder whether your next investigations are
going to be on the future of the monarchy or do you think that it, of course, will survive as an institution but maybe somewhat differently?
LANDLER: I think it will survive. And if anything, I think that the vast outpouring of respect and of affection through these last 10 days have
probably secured the place of the monarchy for a while longer. But I thinking King Charles will definitely set out to redefine things.
He's, for many years, been trying to streamline the monarchy to make it less of a burden on, sort of, public finances. I think he'll continue to
move in that direction. It'll be very interesting to see how successful he is at stepping back from any role and some of the great debates of the day.
He's obviously a passionate advocate on behalf of climate change. He's had other interests organic farming, architecture. And he'll have to sort of
rule him out -- himself out of a lot of these discussions, which he's been a very big part of over the last several decades.
So, that'll be a test for him. He probably will wobble once or twice. But most people seem to think that he's had 70 years to get ready for this and
he knows what the limitations of the job are. But I think we'll see a very different monarchy. Perhaps a smaller one. And perhaps one that may --
plays a role maybe closer to what we see in some of the continental European monarchies where it's a little less of a gargantuan public
spectacle. And perhaps a little more of a work a day monarchy.
I think that's the direction Charles would like to move it in. These things, of course, take a long time. I think we'd be looking for this to
happen over a period of years, not over a period of months.
AMANPOUR: And to be clear, the last poll that was taken of any significance here by -- in Britain was, I believe, in May. And it obviously
shows that healthy majority of British people want to keep the monarchy. I don't know whether you have looked at what might happen in the Commonwealth
and how Britain might get still caught up in the whole moment -- you know, emotion and feeling of the moment. For justice, for -- you know,
acknowledgment and accountability for those periods whether it's Britain or any other of the Europeans or the United States, for that matter, in terms
of ancient slavery and the like.
LANDLER: Well, indeed. You know, those kind -- the kinds of pressures were already mounting in several places. Prince William and his wife Kate made a
trip to the Caribbean back in March that was a bit bumpy. And it was bumpy because everywhere they went, there were calls for slavery reparations,
calls for them to acknowledge the economic exploitation that was also the darker side of the British legacy.
You know, Barbados has already voted to sever the queen as -- or had voted to sever the queen, and now the king as head of state. You know, they
remain part of the Commonwealth. And the Commonwealth as an institution is doing OK.
But there's talk of Jamaica moving in that direction. Republican movements already exist in Australia and New Zealand. It's possible that you'll see
some of that gather some steam. Again, part of the magic of the monarchy was the person of Queen Elizabeth. Because of her durability. Because of
her dignity and the many, many trips she made to all these places.
Charles is well-known around the world. He's been to all the parts of the realm. But he may not have quite that level of credibility of reverence
that the queen had. And thus, it may make it easier for some of these countries which, as you say, are caught up in their own social reckoning.
Some of which has been given, you know, fire by the Black Lives Matter movement the United States to ask hard questions about the colonial era,
the role and responsibility of Britain, and what their own future should be.
AMANPOUR: And, Mark, you know, it's important to note that there's the Commonwealth and there's the realm. I've been educated on this these past
few days, obviously, in the conversations that have erupted since the queen's passing.
And, of course, the Commonwealth is a voluntary group of nations. Some were former British colonies, some are not. Some decided to join. Then there's
the others, which is about 14 or so that remain countries that keep the British monarch as their sovereign. And that's where the argument might be
for having their own independent elected heads of state.
[13:45:00]
But it doesn't threaten, apparently, or question the actual Commonwealth which is a block for economic, culture, politics, and crucially to try to
encourage peace and democracy.
LANDLER: Indeed. And, in fact, you know, as you say some of the newer members of the Commonwealth where colonies of other European countries in
the past. So, the Commonwealth is really almost more of a, as you say, it's a commercial, cultural, sports, social, kind of, exchange organization in a
way what the leaders do when they get together is network with each other. And Commonwealth countries tend to trade more with one another than with
countries that are not in the Commonwealth.
And so, you know, it is a -- it's a vibrant organization. It is facing some of the same questions about its role in the world. There are also some
issues because some of the members have human rights records, say Rwanda, for example, that are not as pristine as others.
So, the Commonwealth is not without its challenges. But, as you say, it's in a very different category than countries in the realm which still have
the king as the head of state. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia being big examples of this. These are countries that will probably begin to have that
conversation anew as we head into the era of King Charles.
AMANPOUR: Mark Landler, thank you very much for being on our program tonight.
And my next guest knows very well the cultural impact the queen has had around the world. Andrew Lloyd Webber is the composer of some of the
world's most famous musicals, including "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera". He met the queen on many occasions, and attended today's funeral.
Andrew Lloyd Webber is joining us. Sir, welcome to the program. Good to have you on.
ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER, COMPOSER: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Tell me what it was like inside. I mean, you are an amazing producer, composer. You've put on some of the greatest spectacles that keep
on running. This was a spectacle in a completely different way, obviously. But nonetheless it was a theater of mourning and intention to solidify the
monarchy. Is that how you read it?
WEBBER: Well, thank you for suggesting that I was at the funeral but I actually wasn't.
AMANPOUR: OK.
WEBBER: I was with the BBC on the other side of the road as it were. But it was an amazing -- it was -- anything at Westminster Abbey is an
extraordinary event. The abbey qua is second to none in the world. And the way that it was presented at the abbey was really extraordinary.
But I think, although, we were all, you know, completely in awe to the way that it was -- you know, was indeed as it were represented today, I think
everybody, really, was mourning the death of a most remarkable woman who for 70 years when the world has been not as stable as you would like it to
be has been unbelievably a force of stability. And --
AMANPOUR: And --
WEBBER: -- I just heard, you know, the last guest talking about the Commonwealth. That she felt very deeply about the Commonwealth because she
felt that everybody, and one of the extraordinary things about the queen was that she had absolute love of everybody no matter what their race,
nationality, creed. And she wanted to try and bring people together, whenever she possibly could.
AMANPOUR: And of course, during her reign this country changed completely in terms of becoming much more culturally and religiously diverse. I mean,
hugely so between when she ascended the throne and today. And you said that, you know, this was a mourning and a farewell to a particularly
beloved lady. What do you remember about her and what stuck out for you in some of your encounters?
WEBBER: Well, I think first thing that I remember about her was her absolute desire to see that everybody was included in any kind of way. I
mean, she was incredibly brilliant at putting people at their ease that you met them -- she met them. And she was just extraordinary, really, in that
way.
Her amazing ability, apart from putting people at their ease, was to -- in her very quiet way, in a very, very quiet way just to try and promote
inclusivity.
[13:50:00]
You know, she was really, really, really passionate about the Commonwealth as I said earlier. And I think she really wanted to be the queen of
everybody, and not just any one particular sector.
AMANPOUR: So, you actually performed and we saw it on the big screens outside of Buckingham Palace during the platinum jubilee a few months ago,
of course. You and your old partner, Tim Rice, wrote a mini-musical cricket for the queen for her diamond jubilee.
WEBBER: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: She really did like musical theater. I mean, I've heard some museum directors and others say she wasn't necessarily, you know, a great
cultural lover but she did her duty. She went to all of these openings of the opera and was patron of everything. But everybody says musicals and
musical theater was her favorite.
WEBBER: Well, she had a great love of songs, obviously, from when -- like, we all do when we're teenagers. She had a great love of the musical theater
songs that were around that time. I had the great joy and privilege of being able to premiere a song that I wrote for the previous jubilee called,
"Sing", at my home. And she came around, of course her great love is horse racing.
And we put together a choir of horse racing people. And I have to say that it was not the best choir that I've ever, ever had in my life, but we did
sing the song there. And we also sang some of the songs that we knew she loved when she was a kid. And they happen to be, I am happy to say, mainly
from American musicals. And she is particularly in love with people we're in love from Oklahoma.
AMANPOUR: Amazing. And you said -- and I'm going to just read out what you said about her being an anchor. You said, for the whole of my life, the
queen has been the constant anchor of not just Britain and her beloved Commonwealth, but an inspiration to the world for her lifetime of service.
And I do think, especially in this, you know, very narcissistic world that we live in, that word service and her lifelong sense of it has impressed
people above everything else.
WEBBER: Well, I think that's right. I mean, she would never comment on anything that was negative about her or indeed -- more importantly, I
suppose, anything that was positive about her. She was just the most extraordinary woman. She had a real sense of humor. I can vouch for that.
And I -- all I can say is -- and I'm a very, very, privileged person indeed to have been able to meet her on a few occasions.
AMANPOUR: Andrew Lloyd Webber, thank you for joining us on this day of the queen's funeral.
And finally, the queen was known, frankly, to show most of her public emotion towards her animals. And today, they too were brought out to say
goodbye. Corgis, Sandy and Mick waited for her coffin at Windsor Castle along with Prince Andrew. And apparently, he and his former wife, Fergie,
will now be their parents. Her favorite horse, Emma, was also seen as the queen's hearse passed by. It was riderless on the lawn of the long walk of
Windsor.
Now, amid the day's solemnity, we're left with a message of hope from the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOST REVEREND JUSTIN WELBY, ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Service in life. Hope in death. All who follow the queen's example and inspiration of trust
and faith in God can, with her say, we will meet again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: We will meet again. Words sand famously by Vera Lynn and synonymous with the era of the second world war. But also, of course, ones
the queen herself used to rally the United Kingdom during the COVID-19 pandemic.
That is it for now. Thank you for watching. And we leave you with more of the sovereign piper playing a lament as Queen Elizabeth II was laid to
rest. Goodbye from London.
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