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Interview with British Vogue Editor-in-Chief and "A Visible Man," Author Edward Enninful; Interview with Former Afghanistan's Youngest Female Mayor and "Zarifa; A Woman's Battle in a Man's World" Co-Author Zarifa Ghafari; Interview with "The Revolutionary: Samuel Adams" Author Stacy Schiff. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired October 27, 2022 - 13:00   ET




ANNOUNCER: This is CNN. More people get their news from CNN than any other news source.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to "Amanpour". Here's what is coming up.


EDWARD ENNINFUL, BRITISH VOGUE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AND AUTHOR, "A VISIBLE MAN": I just realized that I can really do better in the world, than maybe I can

on one magazine.


AMANPOUR: "A Visible Man", Edward Enninful, the first black editor of British Vogue reveals his conversation with the boss, Anna Wintour about

his future. And how he is fully boldly remaking the world of fashion. Then.



in Afghanistan, they're so wonderfully courageous. And I'm really, really proud of being one of them.


AMANPOUR: At age 24, she became Afghanistan's youngest female mayor. Now, Zarifa Ghafari, tells me about surviving assassination attempts, pushing

for girls education, and fighting "A Woman's Battle in a Man's World".

Plus, "The Revolutionary". Pulitzer prize-winning, Stacy Schiff, explains why Samuel Adams is one of Americas most essential founding fathers.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Where over the last few weeks, prime ministers have come and gone with dizzying speed. But atop one of the world's most iconic brands there is no

such leadership contest. Vogue magazine has been setting trends for decades, most recently led by its legendary editor Anna Wintour.

And since 2017, Edward Enninful has overseen its British counterpart. He's the first black person and the first man to hold the role. He's a gender

setting star powered reign has attracted readers and buzz. All of that fueling speculation that, of course, he must be gunning for Wintour's job.

But tonight, in a revealing conversation, Enninful puts the rumors to rest.

He tells me how, in his words, he went from dorky immigrant to exotic model. And how he learned how to stand up and stand out. Making himself "A

Visible Man", the title of his new memoir.


AMANPOUR: Edward Enninful, welcome back to our program.


AMANPOUR: Everybody wants to know, are you going to be the next editor of American Vogue when and if Anna Wintour ever steps down?

ENNINFUL: Christiane, everybody focuses on American Vogue. Everybody wants to know what I am doing. But I would like to tell you that I don't want

Anna's job. I've spoken to her about it a few weeks ago. Having been on my book tour and met so many people in the world. You know, I've met so many

women, so many incredible minorities, essentially. I just realized that I can really do better in the world, than maybe I can on one magazine.

AMANPOUR: Could I just pause? That's a bit of breaking news in the fashion and culture world. Are you telling me that if it was offered to you today,

now, what would you say?

ENNINFUL: I would say, not right now. Not today.

AMANPOUR: So, you're leaving a little bit of wiggle room for the future?

ENNINFUL: What I would like to do in a future, really, is create. I've realized that my strength is in creativity. You know, creating images. Just

contributing to the world that way. So, that's what really I want to focus on ahead.

AMANPOUR: Let me just be clear, Anna Wintour is not stepping down.


AMANPOUR: As far as we know. So, let's say it's in -- six months or a year, would you still feel the same way, or in two years? I don't know how long

she's going to be there.

ENNINFUL: I will feel exactly the same way. Exactly the same.

AMANPOUR: So, tell --

ENNINFUL: And I've spoken to her about it.

AMANPOUR: What did she say?

ENNINFUL: I mean, I think she was fine. She was really fine about it. We spoke about it in Paris, so.

AMANPOUR: The latest fashion shows?



So let's just quell that rumor right there.

ENNINFUL: So, let's just quell that rumor right there.

AMANPOUR: So, what does that mean then for Edward Enninful? You continue being the European editor, the editor of British Vogue?

ENNINFUL: Well, we're working out -- on that right now. We're working it all out right now. But I know whatever I do will be very creative because

that is my strength.

AMANPOUR: And what is creative when you say that? Is it creative in print? Is it creative --

ENNINFUL: Oh, my God. It's creative in print, it's creative in video. It's creative in audio. events. You know, we live in a world where it's not just

about one thing anymore. It is creative on a platform, essentially, and managing a brand. So, that's what I'm excited about.

AMANPOUR: What brand?

ENNINFUL: Anything I -- any brand, really, you know.

AMANPOUR: You know, I interviewed Adwoa Aboah, she was your first cover. And it made a huge splash because she is a woman of color.


And it was a huge big deal. And to be fair, it seems like you have literally turned British Vogue and Italian Vogue and others on their heads.

There has never been so much representation of black or people of color, ever before. So, at this point, what do you think your legacy -- you must

be part of that, right?

ENNINFUL: I mean, you know, I'm proud that in 2017 people weren't having a conversation about diversity. There was that old, you know, conversation

that people of color didn't sell on covers. And I've been able to, sort of, have a little something to deal with changing that perception, and letting

the world know that, you know, people of color can sell magazines. You know, British Vogue is doing better now than it ever has in terms of

advertising, you know, sales.

So, you know, just to contribute to the world and say, you know, people on the outside can also contribute something amazing. I'm very proud of that.

AMANPOUR: She said, Adwoa, to me, when we did this in 2017, he has been advocating diversity for years and years and years. And so, he is also

widely outspoken and he has that continuous dialogue that makes it authentic and real. That's a great tribute.

ENNINFUL: That is incredible. Thank you, Adwoa.


ENNINFUL: Really, incredible. I mean, I just try to do what I think is right. You know, I was really, sort of, othered my whole life. You know, I

am from one country we have to escape. Come to another country, we were penniless. And I really had -- you know, I went from a country where I was

the majority, all black, to be to -- coming to a country where as the minority where I had to really learn and I stay true to myself, you know.

AMANPOUR: Well, obviously, that brings me to your book. It is called "A Visible Man" --

ENNINFUL: "A Visible Man".

AMANPOUR: -- right? That is a play on words. Tell me about it. Why did you choose that title?

ENNINFUL: I mean, I chose that title because, you know, I was supposed to be invisible. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm working class. A refugee. I literally

come with all the things that's supposed to make you invisible. And somehow, every step of my life, all my career, I fought against that. That

you will see me. And really that's what the book was an ode to, a tribute to.

AMANPOUR: And a tribute, obviously, to your country of birth, Ghana, and to your mother, most particularly. So, I want to know you dedicate this book

to your mother and you call her the love of your life. Tell me about that. What did your mother do to make, you know, Edward, Edward?

ENNINFUL: Well, I was a very sickly child, you know, sickle cell and I need sickle cell plus and also thalassemia. So, my -- I was always with my

mother. But what my mother gave me was a world of beauty, a world of women. I would see women of all shapes and sizes coming to my mother's studio and

she would -- they would leave feeling so incredible. I learned the power of clothes. The power of making a woman feel great. So, when I talk about my

work being dedicated to people of all races, ages, sizes, religions, sexuality, it really comes from my mother.

AMANPOUR: Because she was a seamstress, right? She was --

ENNINFUL: She was a seamstress.


ENNINFUL: A taulier (ph) --

AMANPOUR: She had a -- taulier (ph).

ENNINFUL: -- with 40 women. So, I grew up thinking anything was possible. And that woman were the most incredible human beings on the planet.

AMANPOUR: I mean, I would know that, of course.

ENNINFUL: You agree.

AMANPOUR: But can I talk because, you know, obviously in Ghana it is a patriarchal to society despite its very strong female sector, so to speak,

which I've also discovered there. But your father was a different kettle of fish for you, right? You know, you write in the book, he was our biggest

source of fear as kids, and the rejection I felt in particular, because I was shy and more artistic and sensitive than my bothers, would keep us from

developing any kind of an affectionate connection until much later in life. It wasn't just that I felt he didn't understand me, I felt he actively

disdained me.

ENNINFUL: I think a lot of gay people say to you when you grow up in the household where you're the other, when you're sensitive, you always --

you're already paranoid anyway. And I had a father who was very strict. And now, when I look back, he wanted the best for us, but he was very strict.

You know, he wanted me to be a lawyer. Drawing wasn't a part of it. Being a -- working in a seamstress in a sewing room, that wasn't a part of it


So, I was always meant to hide my creative side. But then I have my mother who was so amazing and encouraged that. So, that was perfect push-pull, if

you want it to say. But my dad did the best he could. You know, he was in the military. He was a military man. And now, we have a great relationship.

But it was tough.

AMANPOUR: So, you do --

ENNINFUL: It was tough back then.

AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. I was going to ask you. So, you do have a great relationship now?

ENNINFUL: Yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: That's good. He's proud of you.

ENNINFUL: I think he is now.

AMANPOUR: Good. Growing up in Ghana, I think you are a young teenager when you are made immigrants and refugees here. It brings up, obviously, the

whole issue of colonialism and the British empire. Because -- I read that you said that when the queen died in September you also went out onto the

streets to sort of partake in that, sort of, unified sense of grief, sense of occasion.


Was that difficult for you to manage? The idea of the, queen, empire, commonwealth and where you came from?

ENNINFUL: I mean, yes. I really totally understand the conversation around colonialism. I come from the Commonwealth. I know the harm that it has

done. When I talk about the queen, I always talk about a woman, a grandmother, a great grandmother. A woman who's dedicated her life to

service. When I talk about King Charles, and the Prince's Trust, this is something that gave family members, you know, (INAUDIBLE) grow of really

poor income area, first steps up the work ladder.

So, I see it from a very different --

AMANPOUR: You're talking about yourself?


AMANPOUR: Your family.

ENNINFUL: My family, my cousins, friends, yes, they were helped by the Prince's Trust. So, for me, it's a very personal opinion. But I do really

take on the whole argument about colonization and the Commonwealth, as well.

AMANPOUR: And you dedicated, obviously, I think perhaps Vogue always does this when a monarch passes. You dedicated the issue -- latest issue to

that. And it's all in purple, which is the color of royalty, isn't it? What were you saying?

ENNINFUL: We basically -- you know, Vogue has had a 106-year relationship with the royal family. And I've always been able to sort of walk the line

between, you know, colonialism as well as with the royal family stands for today. And for, me it was a no-brainer. We had to move everything aside to

just pay tribute to this incredible woman.

AMANPOUR: You've had a pretty extraordinary year when it comes to covers. You've had Beyonce, again. You've had Olena Zelenskyy, the first lady of

Ukraine who is quite a dynamo and a force in herself.

ENNINFUL: She's quite a force.

AMANPOUR: Exactly. So popular around the world. You also had Linda Evangelista. Now, she's one of my favorite models because --

ENNINFUL: She's incredible.

AMANPOUR: -- not just of the way she looks, but because of what she stood for and stands for. But how difficult was it for you then to, sort of -- I

mean, we know because we've read about and you can tell us how it went. But you know, you've, sort of, hyped her face back. You got all, sort of,

partly covered. She's obviously got great lighting, got makeup. Because she had this terrible experience with, sort of, body sculpting and facial work

gone wrong. Why did you make her look perfect?

ENNINFUL: So, I've known Linda -- my God, since we were kids in the '90s. And she has always been one of the most incredible women. A force of

nature. And I saw my friends literally become a recluse, not leave her house, really sad.

So, when it came to during this shoot, she said she want -- she wanted to be the Linda that everyone knew so she could enjoy her job. And I really

just sort of, you know, that was my friend. That's what she wanted and we helped her achieve that. You know, I would never tell a woman what to do

with her body. So, with Linda, I was there as a friend and I'm glad. I'm so proud of that cover.

AMANPOUR: And is that all laid out in the story?

ENNINFUL: Yes. She spoke -- she speaks about.


ENNINFUL: She speaks about it and she felt wonderful and she was able to do the job that she loved.

AMANPOUR: And what do you think it means? I know you're not a girl, but what do you think it means for young girls who are always taught, you know,

you got to look the thinnest, the best, the prettiest, the this, the that, you know, all the facial jobs and body jobs that are happening right now.

ENNINFUL: You know, what I can really say is I cannot tell the women what to do with her body. I know there's psychological --

AMANPOUR: But Vogue modeling, here. Modeling behavior.

ENNINFUL: Yes. But I know that, you know, a lot of women can internalize what is going on in the world in a good way or bad way. But all I can say

is at Vogue I try to say be who you are. You know, whatever size you are, you're welcome. Whatever age you are -- and I really, sort of, proved it

over the years. But it's so challenging, you know, and you have to think with every issue what you are saying.

AMANPOUR: I was really stunned to hear that, I think it was somewhere around 2007 or '08, you basically heard people saying, no black models, no

ethnics need to apply. Everything was all white. Tell me what you felt when you heard that, and what you did about it when you were in a position to be

able to do something about it?

ENNINFUL: I mean, you know, I was there, a stylist on fashion shows. And the black model really disappeared. So, you have all these lineups and it

would be 30 white girls, and it was fine. And I remember being so sad about it in speaking to Steven Meisel, the photographer I worked with. And he

then went to Franca Sozzani of Italian Vogue, and the black issue was born.

And the black issue really celebrated black models from Iman to Tyra Banks, to a young baby Jourdan Dunn. And it's so, so much they had to reprint it.

And it really showed, you know, that having black people on the covers was actually a great thing, you know, culturally and financially. So, I'm very

proud of that moment, the black issue.

AMANPOUR: So, Anna Wintour told me a few years ago when I interviewed her, basically she said Vogue needs to be a place with a point of view. I mean,

you have really taken that and run with it.

ENNINFUL: Well, thank you for that. But really --

AMANPOUR: Have you? I mean, I'm sort of saying, but do you feel it?


ENNINFUL: No -- I mean, you know, when I started at Vogue, I just wanted to create a magazine where everybody was welcome. For me, I looked around the

world and saw all my incredible friends and family, and they really weren't represented in the magazine. So, I'm very, very proud of that. That women

can now see themselves. People who've been othered can see themselves. People on the margins can see themselves. So, I'm very, very proud of that.

AMANPOUR: So, let's talk a little bit more about what you're going to do because you -- you know, we started this with you making a pretty big

announcement that, you know, counter to everybody's assumptions, you either would be or you definitely wanted to be, anyway, Anna Wintour's successor.

You've just put the kibosh on that.

ENNINFUL: Yes. I mean, I thought it was important. Let's get it out there.

AMANPOUR: What have you gotten in terms of your book tour? You've been out and about. You've been talking to people. They've come to your interviews

and, you know, your promotional interviews and things, I guess. You've just come back from Manchester, for instance, in the north of England. What did

you learn up there? What did people say to you about your book?

ENNINFUL: I just learned that it is important to be seen. And I felt like the reaction I got back from people is that they felt seen over the years

with British Vogue and, sort of, my work through the years. They felt seen. And so, for me, if that's the contribution I've made to fashion, I am so

happy, you know, because I didn't feel seen when I was growing up.

So, if a young kid, you know -- there's a kid who came out to me yesterday in Manchester saying, oh my God. I love the magazine, and I feel myself --

you know, I can be whatever I want to be. For me, that -- my work is done. I'm so proud of that.

AMANPOUR: And you do actually exist in an environment right now. It just happens -- sometimes things just happen historically. So, Black Lives

Matter also pushed the idea of black leadership, black culture, black excellence, black experience right into the forefront.

ENNINFUL: Yes, to the full.

AMANPOUR: You know, the great photographer Tyler Mitchell, there the -- artist, Antwaun Sargent doing all this curating. There's you. There's just

so much. Do you think -- job done?

ENNINFUL: Job is never done. There's always more to do. There's always more conversations to be had. There's always more, you know? We can never sit

back and say, it is done. You can't in any form -- walk of life. So, for me, the conversations has started. There are more models on the runway and

advertising, but we still need more people of color behind the scenes. And that's what we're really pushing for right now.

AMANPOUR: Edward Enninful, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

ENNINFUL: Always a pleasure.


AMANPOUR: Edward Enninful, about to strike out on his own.

Next, would you put your life on the line for what you believe? My next guest has several times. In 2018, at the age of 24, Zarifa Ghafari became

the youngest female mayor in Afghanistan. It's all the more remarkable because her town Maidan Shahr is a Taliban stronghold. But the milestone

came with a high cost. She survived three assassination attempts, including a fire sparked by a gas leak at her home.

And though she now lives in Germany as a refugee, she has not given up her fight to get Afghan girls educated. And it's all explored in her new

memoir, "Zarifa". She's also the focus of the Netflix documentary, "In Her Hands", that's out next month and it's produced by Hillary and Chelsea

Clinton. Here's a clip.



was studying, I had to walk an hour each way to my school Paktika. There were many suicide attacks and fights. My father told me not to go anymore.

So, I started going to school secretly, I was going to school in secret after he went to the office. It was my lifetime dream to see that my

parents are proud of my reputation and my achievements. So, please educate your daughter and send them to school. If you educate one girl or woman,

you save 10 generations.


AMANPOUR: Zarifa's passion is clear and she tells me what keeps her going.


AMANPOUR: Zarifa Ghafari, welcome to the program.

GHAFARI: Thank you so much for having me.

AMANPOUR: At the age of 24, you became mayor of a town outside Kabul. How difficult was that for you to actually be a mayor in a country that even

then, even before the Taliban, still pretty hostile to women in positions of power?

GHAFARI: Actually, it's always these obstacles which make you to think about how to change it. If you are a well-educated person of your community

and you feel kind of responsible for your community. I thought, let's take a step forward, and then the mayorship came on and I started.


It was difficult, but it was always so beautiful because you had to walk a city and work with dozens of men, and other dozens of those men who are not

listening to their wives and mothers. But they have to listen to you because you are enforcing law.

AMANPOUR: That's incredible.

GHAFARI: That's so beautiful.

AMANPOUR: It's a very good way to put it, too. And do you feel you were a successful mayor? Did those men actually work with you? Were you able to

get things done?

GHAFARI: Actually, for starting, it was really tough to get them in. That's why I had nine months of struggling coming into my office and during my

office. And then when I -- first day, started my office, the first day, my team ignored working with me and they came out -- all out of office. But

when I was leaving office, I was coming out and there were dozens of these men, and my colleagues, they had tears in their eyes. So, I think that's a

struggle and that all suffering was worth all of it.

AMANPOUR: So, it was worth it despite how difficult? I mean, they had tears in their eyes when you left, but there were protests outside your office

when you tried to take office.

GHAFARI: Yes, yes, yes. Actually -- it was -- when I started competing for the position, I knew how hard it will be because I knew this province and

the city. I knew the kind of extremist ideologies living around, and I knew the man dominated society, as well as local governments.

So -- and I was so aware of every problem ahead. But I knew that if I don't give up, I can come over. Then lots of people were telling me, if you go

in, you will have so hard time. You will face attacks, there are, like, Taliban's, there are extremist people. It's all a hard community.

But I was like, it doesn't matter. I want it. They are putting me down just because of my gender, and I wanted to prove myself that if I'm a girl, it's

just my gender.

AMANPOUR: You are the focus of a Netflix documentary. It's called "In Her Hands", it happens to be produced by Hillary and Chelsea Clinton. And it

shows that, you know, despite the threats, you were out there, particularly, campaigning for girls education. Let's just play a clip.


GHAFARI (through translator): For 50 years, war has been imposed on Afghans. We don't want any more war. Stand beside your sisters. Let them be

educated so that both men and women can rebuild the country together. You ng people, you must work for it. Study and work. Compete with your peers.

Drop the weapon and take up a pen. This country will be built by the pen and by education.

We want security.

CROWD (through translator): We want it.

GHAFARI (through translator): We want education.

CROWD (through translator): We want it.

GHAFARI (through translator): We want peace.


AMANPOUR: So, you were quite out there. Did you -- were you able to convince some of those men, traditional men, to actually educate their

girls, which is still a huge problem there?

GHAFARI: When I was having this conversation with men around, the only thing coming out of their mouths and thoughts, it was they don't have that

enough sources like school and facilities. If they have that, then they will definitely do that.

And that was the thing as well. When I went back to Kabul in February, I had a big meeting with dozens of elders of community from three villages.

And they were all there to meet me and talk to me, just if I could help them to build a high school -- building of high school for girls of that


AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's really interesting.

GHAFARI: So, that is a good thing.

AMANPOUR: It's a good thing and, of course, you went back, when you say February, that some six months after the Taliban took over.


AMANPOUR: So, when I went, a couple of months after you, I spoke to the guy who's pretty much the leader there now, Siraj Haqqani.


AMANPOUR: First time, he had done a sit-down interview, first time he had shown his face.


AMANPOUR: This is what he said to me when we discussed this very issue of girls in high school.


AMANPOUR: Do you believe that young girls, secondary school girls, will be allowed to go to school here in Afghanistan?

SIRAJUDDIN HAQQANI, ACTING INTERIOR MINISTER OF AFGHANISTAN (through translator): I would like to provide some clarification. There is no one

who opposes education for women. And already, girls are allowed to go to school up to grade six and above that grade. The work is continuing on a

mechanism. You may have heard that this is not opposed at the level of leadership or the cabinet. But the issue has been postponed until further



AMANPOUR: So, then he said postponed at that time. He also said to me, very soon, you will hear very good news about this issue, God willing. But

months later, here we sit and high school girls are still not in school.

GHAFARI: Exactly.


AMANPOUR: Do you think they will ever be able to under this regime?

GHAFARI: Actually, I will never say, no, because it's not about trusting this regime. It's about trusting on my generation that if they're not going

to get this done, we are not going to let them live in peace. Definitely, they have to open our schools. We care about rights of us, and in

particular, the schools for girls. It's just the red line for all girls and women in Afghanistan, so they have to give it.

AMANPOUR: Why do you think they are not doing it still? And if somebody as powerful as Haqqani, who seems to want girls to go to school, high school

girls, there seems to be a power struggle with the, you know, the so-called supreme leader sitting in Kandahar, the religious types.

GHAFARI: Actually, the -- what is coming out from within Taliban and the news around social media and everywhere is this supreme leader, Haibatullah

and four or five other people, which one of them are the -- Hassan Haqqan (ph), the -- kind of prime minister of them, and all these four, five, six

people at the very top of them who really are totally opposite of that. And --

AMANPOUR: They oppose it? They just don't want it?

GHAFARI: They oppose it and they don't want to.

AMANPOUR: So, who's going to win?

GHAFARI: Definitely us. That -- that's also a sign of that resistance, you know. And so beautiful resistance. This new generation of women in

Afghanistan, they are so wonderful and courageous. And I'm really, really proud of being one of them.

AMANPOUR: Well, you're pretty courageous yourself. You've had -- well, you've had a very, very bad car accident when you were a student in India,

you were -- you survived an assassination attempt inside Afghanistan. You live outside now in Germany, correct?


AMANPOUR: And the doctors or -- you know, people around you offered to have your hands plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery, but you said no.

GHAFARI: Yes, exactly, because whenever I am looking to these scars, it gives me two, three things. And the basic two -- one is, like -- one, is

it's about knowing. When I look at this, it's like giving me the feeling of how strong I am myself, personally, because I saw myself on fire. And I --

instead of, like, crying and shouting and, like, doing crazy stuff, I was just trying to blow the fire off and get to a hospital. That was one thing.

Like, you know, I still survived that and I didn't die.

And the second thing, whenever I looked at these cars scars, it's kind of giving me that feeling of how my country is surviving. How women are

subjected to always suffer. So, I want to keep this as long as I need it. As long as I am, I think, I need to -- you know, I need to be cooked (ph)

enough into this.

AMANPOUR: Yes. So, that's an interesting word. In your book, you talk about a pretty difficult relationship with her father, in terms of what you

wanted to do with your life and what his thoughts were. Tell me about that.

GHAFARI: Definitely. My dad was always a very loving dad for all of us. But for me, he was always saying, I am a prayer of her which is very well

accepted by God because he wanted a first girl child -- the first child of him. So, I was really good --

AMANPOUR: So, you were the answer to his prayers?

GHAFARI: Yes, yes, yes. And then -- yes, yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: Because he wanted a girl.

GHAFARI: He wanted a girl at the first. And it was --

AMANPOUR: Which is very rare.

GHAFARI: -- very rare in an Afghan community.


GHAFARI: So, especially in a community where my family were living in. So, that was something that my dad was afraid of. He was afraid of losing me.

That's why he stopped me going to school. He was afraid of me being attacked or harassed. For me, it was like kind of, oh, what my dad doing?

So, I was fighting.

And now, because I know my community, I know everything around, and I can feel my dad as what he was thinking and seeing, I'm blessed. I was blessed

by having him. And I always believe this, whoever I am today is because of him. Because if he was not enough tough to me, if he was not enough hard to

me, I was never doing, trying this hard and I was never being where I am now.

AMANPOUR: So, he toughened you up. You know, he said -- you said that he was terribly upset and worried that he would lose you. Well, you lost him,

he was assassinated.

GHAFARI: Yes. The terrible thing of my life. I know I have my mom. I have all my family members.


But what I really, really -- is spending me more -- I want him to stay longer and see and -- like, I wanted to do everything, and then tell him

that, see, dad. If you give me a chance, it was all for this well, you know. But it never happened. I lost him so early in a time where I needed

him the most. I really needed him the most because after each and every attack on my life, he was calling me and saying, are you OK? Yes, don't be

afraid. Just come home. Don't be afraid. Don't freak out. That was his message. You know. He never told me to give up. He never told me to stop

because he started believing me how beautifully I'm managing everything, including community stuff around me.

So, that was the painful thing happening to my life. And I still have the scar of it so deep in my heart. I can't talk about my dad without having

tears in my eyes. I miss him a lot, especially nowadays with the book, with the film. Where, like, there are big dozens of people around the world

talking about me. I wish he was here and he was listening too.

AMANPOUR: You know, in your book you write about women in Afghanistan. Here's the truth. In Afghanistan, it is impossible to be a successful woman

without also being on a motionless one.

GHAFARI: Definitely.

AMANPOUR: What do you mean?

GHAFARI: I believe my life story can be a good example of what I have wrote here. Because if you want to be a successful woman, you need to start

fighting your own family. And fighting your own family needs to be -- it needs you to be so emotionless. It needs to be -- you need to be so, like,

hard and tough, you know. To have your own --

AMANPOUR: Because you even have to fight your own family to get --

GHAFARI: Your own family --

AMANPOUR: -- to get through the first hurdle.

GHAFARI: -- to go through that. And then we -- when you come to society, you -- like, starting your how to wear, you know. What you are wearing. How

you are walking. Whom to you are talking. Whom you are sitting and standing with. Starting from these places to anything else, they're attacking you

and you need to be so emotionless to not give them anything, not attention, you know?

AMANPOUR: You know, I saw some women in Afghanistan race placards and march in support of the women in Iran. Saying, the Iranian women have risen up,

now it's our turn. What do you think Afghan women make of what's happening next door in Iran?

GHAFARI: Definitely, the fight in Iran is a fight for freedom of choice, which is every human being legal -- humanitarian right, and that's

something everyone needs to accept and respect. But when it comes to women of my country, we are not able to go to school, dozens, millions of girls.

So, for us, like, freedom of choice comes, like, so later than this one. So, now we are fighting for school opening and we are doing that.


GHAFARI: And I'm so happy women of Afghanistan are doing that inside, and giving us the support and opportunity, and belief to do that here outside

the country for them.

AMANPOUR: Zarifa Ghafari, thank you so much indeed.

GHAFARI: You are most welcome.

AMANPOUR: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And as we just mentioned, the women of Iran are also fighting for their rights. Mourners have marked 40 days since the death of Mahsa Amini,

chanting freedom. And the riot police, out in force, responded with tear gas. Dozens have been killed in the five weeks of these protests.

Amini is the young woman who died in police custody after being arrested for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. And now, there is growing

international condemnation of the regime for its brutal crackdown on protesters. Corresponder Nada Bashir, has more.


NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER (voiceover): The final resting place of Mahsa Zhina Amini, a place of mourning and now of protest. Amini's name has

become synonymous with a movement that is posing the biggest threat to the Iranian regime in years.

Sparks in the wake of the 22-year-olds death while in the custody of Iran's notorious Morality Police detained for allegedly contravening the country's

strict dress code. But now as the Iranian people commemorate 40 days since Amini's death, a significant marker of both mourning and remembrance. The

movement has grown to become something far more wide reaching than its initial call for women's rights.

FIRUZEH MAHMOUDI, CO-FOUNDER & DIRECTOR, UNITED FOR IRAN: It was a protest that quickly turned into a movement and uprising. And some, of course, say

that there is definitely a component of beginning part of a revolution.


BASHIR (on camera): And how important is Mahsa Amini's legacy in really driving forward this protest movement?

MAHMOUDI: Zhina's death was a sparkle that led to this mass fire, right, that we're seeing throughout the country. That initial protest was not even

about hijab, it was, of course, about that. But that is much more than that. It's about body autonomy. It's about gender equality. It's about

basic rights.

BASHIR (voiceover): Amini's name is now remembered alongside a growing list of women who have lost their lives at the hands of Iran security forces.

Though authorities deny responsibility, disregarding the mounting evidence of the regime's brutal and deadly crackdown on protesters.

TARA SEPEHRI FAR, SR. IRAN RESEARCHER, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: We have use of paintball guns, shotguns with metal or plastic pellets, and also instances

of use of assault weapons, assault rifles, clashing book style weapons, or even hand guns that have been documented.

BASHIR (voiceover): This in addition to the mass detention of hundreds, if not thousands of protesters. Six weeks on, however, and the movement isn't

losing steam. With protests gripping the country's universities and high schools and strike action by teachers, business owners, factory workers,

even oil refinery workers, the backbone of Iran's economy. The call for reform and for regime change is only growing louder.


AMANPOUR: Nada Bashir reporting there.

And our next guest has written biographies of some of history's most fascinating figures. From Cleopatra to the Witches of Salem. Now, the

Pulitzer prize-winning historian, Stacy Schiff, is turning to an American revolutionary in her new book about Samuel Adams she argues that he is one

of the country's most essential founding fathers. And she tells Walter Isaacson how someone so important has become so forgotten.


WALTER ISAACSON, CNN HOST: Thank you, Christiane. And Stacy Schiff, welcome to the show.

STACY SCHIFF, AUTHOR, "THE REVOLUTIONARY: SAMUEL ADAMS": Thanks, Walter. I'm delighted to join you.

ISAACSON: This wonderful book, "The Revolutionary", is has such vibrant writing to it. But let's start with the character, the biography Samuel

Adams. He's not quite as well-known as his second cousin, John Adams. But he was, according to Jefferson and your book, as you are convincing about

it, more important in creating the revolution and the type of republic we become. Tell me about his relationship with his second cousin, John, and

why he was so important.

SCHIFF: It's contrary to what, I think, we all believed, it's Samuel who recruits John. Samuel's older, and indeed, they're second cousins. He, sort

of, jumped on this resistance bandwagon before John does. Although the two of them agree very early on that American rights are in jeopardy, and that

a very small elite is essentially leading Boston a stray.

But John is a little bit vein, very spotlight searching, very happy to be in the spotlight. And Samuel is, by nature, a backroom operator. He's very

recessive. He's exceptionally modest, for every good reason, given the fact that he's fermenting (ph) revolution. He's tries to stay out of the


There's an amazing moment in John Adams's papers where he describes Samuel at the Continental Congress in Philadelphia throwing his papers into the

fire. And in another occasion, shredding them into little bits of confetti and littering them out the window because he needs to cover his tracks and

the tracks of his confederates. So, very much you have this, sort of, a front man and a back man relationship between the two. It's Samuel who is

very largely setting things in motion, according to the other founders.

ISAACSON: Well, Samuel is sort of the back -- the guy in the background, but he's the writer. I think you have a wonderful line, something about him

being able to pluck ideas from the air and pin them to the page. Nice little pun there, too. But it is a thing that drives the revolution, this

idea of being a vibrant writer like that.

SCHIFF: He's really a master propagandist. I mean, there are many things you can -- to which you can attribute to him. Thomas Jefferson calls him

the most active, the earliest, the most persevering man of the revolution. There are many tributes to him from his contemporaries.

But possibly the single most important contribution is the writing because it achieves what John Adams would call, the revolution that proceeds the

revolution. The revolution in hearts and minds. The revolution in thinking.

And to that end, Samuel is utterly tireless. He is constantly in the papers. He writes under some 30 pseudonyms. There are probably pseudonyms

that still alluded us. He often writes under two different pseudonyms in the same issue of a newspaper. And he really is just grasping at this kind

of ambient ideas and crystallizing them on the page.


ISAACSON: That's very modern, in a way. In fact, throughout your book I'm reading and say, boy, this is just like our time. And the use of

pseudonym's when it came to social media, to what extent did people know it was Samuel Adams?

SCHIFF: You're right on the modern parallel. It's -- there is this exceptional -- there's this explosion of media at a time when ideas are

also evolving, which very feels very current. I spent a lot of time on that, on who knew precisely where -- which pseudonym's Samuel stood behind?

And there are times when John doesn't recognize that it's his cousin. There are times where Adams is credited with other peoples' screens. And he's by

no means the only one going on about American liberties being trampled. Many people are writing on the subject. So, he sometimes given credit for

articles he didn't write.

And very often, the crown officials, who are reading it very closely and obviously very unhappily, will fail to recognize him behind a piece. So,

those articles went back to London. They often get described very thoroughly by crown officials and often the assignments of authorship are


ISAACSON: Well, one of the great lines about Samuel Adams is born to sever the cord. Explain why that's true of him.

SCHIFF: Well, from the start, it's John Adams's line and he essentially says to his cousin that he's born to sever the cord between colonies and

mother country. And from the start -- I mean, first of all, I should say, he has a first act of his life which is exceedingly unimpressive. It

amounts to nothing for the first 40 years of his life, and then essentially dedicates himself to the American cause, to public service.

And from the very beginning of that time, he is very acutely aware of every possible infringement of every possible British misstep. And very much

standing up for colonial liberties, to the point where he begins to run circles around any crown official who attempts to enforce those rules,

those laws.

So, he really becomes the, sort of, one man center of civil resistance organizing all kinds of things which we think of as very modern like

boycotts, and pickets, and extra-legal assemblies. I mean, he really has sort of every tool in his toolbox, in terms of pulling Boston together, in

terms -- in resisting British legislation.

ISAACSON: You talk about how for the first 40 years, he didn't really amount to much. What propels him to having this amazing second act?

SCHIFF: The immediate engine would seem to be the sugar and snap acts. As soon as British officials begin to reconsider the colonial relationship and

to attempt to extract revenue from the colonies, a human cry goes up not only from Massachusetts, but from every colony. This is a -- an issue that

really unites the colonies. There's opposition on every front to the Stamp Act.

And it is really the thing that sets Adams in motion. He helps to word Boston's response to London. Objecting to the act. He -- this essentially

propels him to center stage. It's because of his help with that resistance that he's elected to the Massachusetts House of Representatives. Once he

enters the House of Representatives, he's off and running politically.

That house, that body, begins to speak with his voice. And as the royal governor will know, it's a very different voice than he had spoken with

earlier. It's very direct and it's very extreperous. And in fact, one of his first acts when he becomes a member of the house, is to help to see to

it that a gallery is built in the house, so that the people can see their elected officials in action.

And here, too, of course, there's a modern resonance. And because of that, the elected officials, obviously, begin to play a little bit to the

gallery. And this obviously also leaves the royal governor sputtering, because he feels the government has become a theater.

ISAACSON: One of the most important things he does is create the Committees of correspondence. And that too is so very modern. It's like the first

social network of propaganda network, but a way of connecting the colony. Tell me why he did it and what was the importance of that.

SCHIFF: He does this in 1772. It's actually genius and it's too bad he calls on the Committee of -- Committees of Correspondence because it sounds

so deadly dull, but I think that was part of the exercise, because it is a very daring thing to have organize. So, it's this kind of -- it's sort of,

secretive under this very, very anodyne name.

Essentially there are committees to consider and restate the rights of the colonists. And he's feeling is that if this can be established in every

town in the Massachusetts -- colony, and every town in New England throughout the colonies ultimately, then the colonies can be united in

their efforts to make sure that they are not disenfranchised in any way.

And at first, the idea is thought of as a sort of preposterous idea. It seems like it's treason, which arguably it was. It's not taken terribly



And then there are a number of British missteps on which Adams pounces and suddenly the committees begin to really take off. And they -- and he

essentially wires the continent for rebellion so that after the Boston Tea Party, this will act like an electrical current among the colonies. There

will be a communication that was not possible, at any point, for that in which nobody really saw coming.

It's an extraordinary achievement. It was something he pondered for a long time. There were other people who contribute to it. But it does seem

largely to have been his genius to have -- to establish this network.

ISAACSON: When you say he wired the continent, it really does conjure up modern day social networks. To what extent did you have that in mind? To

what extent are they comparable?

SCHIFF: We have the correspondents of the Committees of Correspondence in the wake of the Boston Tea Party. So, every town in New England writes to

Boston, essentially to say, thank you for standing up for American rights, often in very colorful and very biblical terms. And it does feel like

you're, you know, like, you're on Twitter. It has this extraordinary -- you have all this chatter and everyone's kind of repeating each other. It's

even -- literally it's as if they're retweeting each other, the language overlaps. But there is this extraordinary symphony of this upswing of


ISAACSON: And it can't be controlled by authority, which is very Sam Adams thing and a very internet thing.

SCHIFF: All of this is extra-legal. I mean, the Continental Congress is extra-legal and this is part of the reason why no one in authority took it

seriously because it seems as if it was -- firstly, that nobody would dare to do this in the first place. And second of all, that it was ludicrous to,

really, to begin to even envision such a thing.

ISAACSON: When they make a movie of your book, they are going to start with the Boston Tea Party. It's a great scene in your book. People dressed up.

People not quite sure. Are they Indians? Are they not? Tell me about that and about Samuel Adams sitting there at the meeting as this all begins to


SCHIFF: So, in the Boston Tea Party, which of course, was not called the tea party in the 18th century, it was the Destruction of the Tee at the

time. It's fascinating for the fact that it is a masterpiece of actor-free drama. Everyone who writes about it afterwards resorts to the pass of tents

(ph). You've never seen the pass of tents (ph) get such a workout. That tea just seemed to have plunged itself into the harbor. It's astonishing.

We know a little bit of who the leaders were from a number of things. One of them is that they conspicuously stay behind when everyone else walks up

to the wharf to either watch or to -- watch the tubing (ph) destroy or to destroy it. And in that tight circle of people who are left behind very

conspicuously are John Hancock and Samuel Adams.

But also, when people are deposed afterward -- eyewitnesses are depose afterward in London, they'll name certain names and Adams is always the

first they name, the most active of the party, according to those witnesses. And Thomas Hutchinson, who is then governor, will say that Adams

was never in greater glory than he was after the destruction of the tea.

He's definitely leading the meetings. We have actual crows (ph) of him in that room. At one point, he says nothing more can be done for the salvation

of this country. No contemporary source says that was the signal for the Boston Tea Party, but later, that becomes the detonating line that's very

much added later by historians.

But yes, the perpetrators are either disguised or lightly disguised as native Americans. The disguise kind of floats around. At first, people just

say disguised or in -- sort of, Indian guys. And then later they become the Indians or the Mohawks. No one's really sure what tribe to use. People use

different tribes.

But the point is they were meant -- you were meant to not name names. No one names names. It's shocking how many witnesses there are and have no one

seemingly seen a thing. So, everybody's very sure that 342 chest of tea fall to the harbor, but no one is really sure how they possibly could have

gotten there.

ISAACSON: One of the things we have to wrestle with the founders is slavery. And what I didn't know about Samuel Adams is at one point, when he

gets married for the second time, he's given a slave. Tell me what happens.

SCHIFF: Oddly enough to our ears, it was a fairly traditional wedding gift among well to do New Englander's. So, on his second marriage, his foreign

mother-in-law indeed sends a family a slave. Her name is Suri (ph). And Adams bolts at the idea and says that a slave -- a slave will not live in

my house, he says. And arranges for her freedom after which Suri does live with them for decades afterward. He's also involved in a couple of efforts

to legislate against the sale of slaves, none of which obviously comes to much in the 1760's.

ISAACSON: To what extent did his puritan heritage influence his thinking?

SCHIFF: He's a deeply, deeply religious man. And, I think, it's very easy to draw the connection. This is a very -- this is essentially puritanism in

secular form.


He very much applies the ideas with which he is familiar from his faith. He believes deeply in piety. And one of the reasons that he is forgotten, in

fact, after the revolution, is that the country moves on to sort of new world luxury and splendor. And Samuel Adams is still harking back to old

world property (ph) and piety. He's still thinking about a Christian Sparta, as it has been expressed.

So, he's very much out of step with this new country. And so, that, in addition to the fact that he covers his tracks, in addition to the fact

that he's a fairly modest man, a deeply modest man. And in addition to the fact that he's not a federalist, leaves him very much off the radar.

ISAACSON: After the revolution, you have things that sort of reestablish a bit of an aristocracy. Even have a society of the Cincinnati, you know, the

sort of hereditary period to which George Washington becomes a part. It would seem to me that a true revolutionary would say, no, no. That's not

what we were fighting for. And I think Sam Adams is one of those who says, no, no. That's not what we want. Tell me about how he helped shape the

post-revolutionary period.

SCHIFF: Well, in that respect, he is absolutely a true revolutionary. That -- the society makes him crazy. He can't believe this is happening all over

again. He spent decades now fighting against the elite, fighting against hereditary privilege, and here are those people who want to reinstitute it.

And to his mind -- and this is where it comes down so firmly and solidly on the side of education, there is an actual aristocracy and people

distinguish themselves from other people, but it's not a hereditary thing. It doesn't run in families. There should be no political dynasties, in his


So, his feeling is, that's why we have universities, that's why we have schools. Everyone should be educated and, you know, it's a meritocracy. The

best people should be put in positions of power. He's very much out of step with both the country and with his -- in fact, the Adams -- I mean, John

Quincy Adams goes on to become president. There's a dynasty right there.

So, he's very much recessive in these years in terms of an effect on the country. His -- the years in which he forms America are really those years

in which he forms the revolutionary cause. He's very much left behind in the currents that follow.

ISAACSON: Has he ever really been a politician? Did he ever think of running for president or something?

SCHIFF: He throws his hat in the ring several times for various positions post-revolution. And is pathetically defeated every time. So, there's --

it's unclear if he did that because we don't have -- almost no documentation for this. Did friends put him up to that, or are these things

that were done of his own volition? It is unclear.

He's very briefly governor of Massachusetts after the death of John Hancock. He had been lieutenant governor to Hancock's governor. It's

possibly Samuel Adams at his worst. One historian makes the very astute comment that the higher he goes in the political hierarchy, the worse he


ISAACSON: I want to read one of your great sentences because this book is filled with them. But it, sort of, captures what it is to be an American.

You say that Adams planted himself in the camp of liberty and knowledge, lobbing grenades into those of power and riches. In other words, always

standing up to the elites and the aristocracy. Believing much more in a pure democracy. To what extent is that his definition of what we were

trying to create?

SCHIFF: I would say that's 100 percent the definition. That this -- that should all rest -- everything should rest somehow on pure democracy. How to

make that happen was not something with which he conjured.

ISAACSON: Tell me, as you were writing this, what lessons do you draw for today?

SCHIFF: I think if he stands for one thing, he really stands for this idea that ordinary citizens are more powerful than they realize they are. He

says this over and over again. He tells several parables about the idea, you know, a small mouth caught in a hand can bite its way to freedom. And

that's really his essential understanding, is that if people are willing to band together and organize in a way, they can achieve political change,

which -- of which the life is a perfect illustration.

ISAACSON: Stacy Schiff, thanks so much for joining us.

SCHIFF: Thank you so much, Walter.


AMANPOUR: And finally, remembering another more recent American of historical significance. The late Supreme Court Justice, Ruth Bader

Ginsburg. She will get her own commemorative stamp next year. It will feature an oil painting of Ginsburg, wearing what became her trademark

intricate white collar. Over the black judicial robe. She died aged 87 in 2020, still serving her term and she lasted almost 30 years on the

country's highest court.


And that is it for now. Remember, you can always catch us online, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Plus, of course, on our podcast. Thank you for

watching and goodbye from London.