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Amanpour
Interview With U.S. National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby; Interview With Foreign Policy Adviser To Polish President And Office Of The President Of Poland Secretary Of State Marcin Przydacz; Interview With "Left On Tenth" Author Delia Ephron. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 23, 2023 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to AMANPOUR. Here is what's coming up.
Kyiv needs tanks as western allies' bicker. I get the details from John Kirby on the U.S. National Security Council. Then, we get the view from
Europe. An adviser to the Polish president explains why Warsaw will send in their German made tanks, with or without Berlin's consent. Plus, the
volunteer stepping in to help civilians trapped near the front lines. A report from eastern Ukraine. Also, ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELIA EPHRON, AUTHOR, "LEFT ON TENTH": I'm embarrassed to say, I actually did think I had fallen into my own romantic comedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Finding love after loss. Writer Delia Ephron talks to Walter Isaacson about her new book, "Left on Tenth".
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
An unseemly split over tanks risks the ironclad unity the NATO alliance has demonstrated in support of Ukraine. Among some allies, led by Britain,
Poland, Finland, and the Baltic nations, there is a sense of striking while the iron is hot before Russia regroups for unexpected spring offensive.
And at the heart of the drama is this tank, the German Leopard 2. The nimble, flexible Leopard with all-around protection, requiring low
maintenance, is top of Ukraine's wish list. But the German chancellor is dragging his feet. More than a dozen countries own those tanks, like
Poland, which says it will send them to Ukraine, throwing down the gauntlet to Berlin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATEUSZ MORAWIECKI, POLISH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We will apply for such consent, but this is a secondary topic. Even if we did not
get this consent in the end, as part of a small coalition, if the Germans were not in this coalition, we will still hand over our tanks, together
with others, to Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, tonight, we hear from Poland and from Washington, the leader of the NATO alliance. What is clear is the struggle on the battlefield and
the desperate attempt by all Ukrainians to survive and to see off the Russians. In this report, Correspondent Ben Wedeman tags along with a group
of civilians delivering supplies to frontline communities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Down a well-trodden path, Anatoly (ph) he heads towards home. Perhaps for the last
time. Sasha (ph), a travel agent turned volunteer, will help him collect what he can for the journey to Kyiv. It is time to be with family.
I want to see my grandchildren, I have four, Anatoly (ph) says. And my son just got drafted.
Neighbors will look after his chickens, goats, and dog.
That's all, he says. Let's go guys, they will start shelling now.
He is leaving with a group of young Ukrainians who deliver food and supplies to soldiers, frontline communities, and evacuate those who want to
leave. They have had close calls, aplenty. Says Sasha, in Bakhmut, cluster bombs fell all around us with duct. God protected us.
A year ago, Oleksandr managed car parts store.
OLEKSANDR VETROV, UKRAINIAN VOLUNTEER: And when the war started since February 2022, we come together and take one bus and together some foods,
some stuffs, and make our visits to hot points.
WEDEMAN (voiceover): And hot these points are. They venture through villages still under fire, ravaged by months of shelling.
(on camera): They have come to this village looking for people. They heard reports that 27 were still here. So far though, they haven't found any.
(voiceover): Finally, they find a door marked people. The people have been hiding there, in the shelter. The volunteers quickly get to work, no time
to waste.
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We are always in the basement, says Svetlana (ph). We go there as soon as they start shelling, especially in the last days. It's very, very hard.
Olha (ph) owned on the cafe near Kyiv but left it to be here. She prefers to keep her mother in the dark.
I do not always tell her where I go because she is worried for my life, she says. But we go anyway.
In another village, they are evacuating Stepan (ph), who's suffering from frostbite, or so he believes. He has not seen a doctor.
I was putting up with the pain but now it hurts when I walk and I cannot get any treatment here, he says. There are no doctors, no hospitals, so I
asked my daughter in Holland to help me.
In the evening, his daughter Nadia meets him outside the hospital nearby Sloviansk. Her relief says it all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Ben Wedeman, reporting there from Eastern Ukraine where whether in the military or civilians, everyone is a soldier for the cause. So, what
will it take to end this war? Tanks, armored fighting vehicles, and much, much more ammunition. John Kirby of the U.S. National Security Council,
insists that the alliance is still rock-solid and all in for Ukraine's defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: John Kirby, welcome to the program.
JOHN KIRBY, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESPERSON: Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, the big issue for the day is the tanks, the tanks, the tanks. So, first and foremost, the United States --
KIRBY: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- appears not to be willing to send its M1 tanks to Ukraine. Why not?
KIRBY: We are still working our way through a myriad of requests by the Ukrainians for capabilities, Christiane. And we recognize that armored
capability right now is really important as they fight in the Donbas and as they get ready to fight in coming months over the spring. We expect that
there's quite be quite a bit of ground maneuver, which obviously, tanks would be very supportive of.
But we've made, you know, no decisions, one way or another. We certainly look forward to and are grateful for the contribution that other nations
are willing to give. The Brits have agreed to give some tanks. I know the Germans are talking about it amongst themselves. I mean, those are
obviously decisions they have to make. And we have to make decisions for themselves as well.
I would just tell you, the Abrams tank is a very sophisticated system that requires a very lengthy, detailed, complicated supply chain. I'm not ruling
anything in or out. I'm just saying that, you know, there are some -- we want to make sure that as we provide Ukraine capabilities, that it's the
kind of capabilities that they can use. And they can use very effectively and in short order.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh. John Kirby, you know, a lot of people, military experts, actually think that the Abrams may not be any good, precisely because of
what you said. It's a gas guzzler. It's all of that. Do you think that is the case? That actually it's not what is needed on the battlefront right
now?
KIRBY: Again, we're still working our way through that. I think, when you look at -- if you just take a step back from just the Abrams itself, when
you look at the kinds of advanced capabilities, we're giving Ukraine. We have to be mindful that we are not giving them capabilities that they
cannot absorb readily or effectively.
That does not mean that they're not smart and capable. They are. We're training them on Patriot missile systems right now in Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
But we have to make sure that we -- keep in mind, their absorption rate and their ability to use this material in short order and very effectively
against the enemy. The Abrams is a very sophisticated, very capable tank. No question about that. Well, again, we just -- as we work it through, we
want to make sure that we're doing this in a smart way.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, the problem is -- and you mentioned allies. It appears that, let's say, Germany, it which has the tank Dujour (ph), the Leopard 2,
which it seems everybody's concentrating on, the Ukrainians want it. It's much more flexible than the Abrams. It's, apparently, much more suited for
that battlefield. And yet, it appears the Germans don't want to be the first to send a tank. They don't want to be accused of a German-led
escalation.
So, is this getting down to -- oh, I don't even know to say. But the Germans in the polls is -- the polls are saying, this is just wasting time.
Somebody send the tanks already.
KIRBY: Well, the brits have already agreed to send some of their Challenger tanks, which is obviously very, very welcome. We want to make
sure and we -- you know, we had just this big meeting in Ramstein last week. Secretary Austin, Chairman Milley, tanks were certainly on the
agenda. But you could see from the results of that meeting in Germany how many dozens of nations are willing to continue to support Ukraine with
sophisticated weapons systems on the battlefield.
And what's really important to remember is that these are national decisions. They are sovereign decisions. I certainly can't speak for the
Germans or what is going into their calculus about the Leopard tanks. The Leopards are very good. And there's a lot of them on the European
continent, and certainly, you know, they could be effective on the battlefield.
[13:10:00]
But again, what Germany does, they've got to decide. They have to work through this in a sovereign way. That's been our approach since the very
beginning of the war. We want nations to contribute what they can when they can, on the scale that they can.
But we are not twisting arms. We're not, you know, we're not forcing people to give more than they are willing to give. Each country has national
security interest of their own they have to look out. They have their own defense interest that they have to consider as well.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but you see the thing is, for the last nearly a year now, you've all said this is our joint national security crisis. Our biggest
challenge. Our existential mission is to make sure that Ukraine wins and Putin is defeated, that's been your mantra throughout. And now, we've got
what appeared to be, anyway, of being described as, including at the Kremlin by the Kremlin spokesman, a division between NATO allies and a
division between NATO and Ukraine. This is playing right into Vladimir Putin's hands.
KIRBY: I would take whatever Mr. Peskov says with a huge grain of salt. The -- NATO has never been more staunchly united than it has been over the
last year with this war in Ukraine. And now, we're looking at growing the alliance by two other nations because of what Mr. Putin has done there.
Now, look, it's a lot of countries in the alliance, you know. And they don't -- we're not going to ever agree on every single aspect of every
decision that the alliance makes. That's what makes the alliance so strong, that friends, and allies, and partners can have honest discussions with one
another. But to say that this is dividing the alliance or somehow putting international security at risk in Ukraine because there's a discussion over
tanks it's just way over blowing this thing.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh. So, as you know, Poland has said, and others have said, that they want to send their German made Leopard tanks if they can get a
small coalition of the willing to do that. The German foreign minister has said that her country will not stand in the way of other countries doing
that should they want to.
But in the meantime, is there a difference of opinion on strategy? Let's just put aside the weapons, although it's part of it. But clearly, the
Brits and you saw the British foreign minister in Washington recently saying, now is the time. We believe, if they get all the weapons they need,
all the ammo they need, that this window of opportunity is a time to arm the mob and to be able to score a victory this year.
But, your Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley says, no. Not this year. So, what is it? Is the United States -- I don't know, trying to drag
this out? Trying to weaken the Russians? Does the United States not think that you can score a victory soon? What is the strategic difference there?
KIRBY: We obviously want to see this war end today. And obviously it could end today if Mr. Putin pulls his troops out, that's not going to happen, I
recognize that. But we don't want to see this war drag on one single more day than today.
But in the meantime, we got to make sure that Ukraine can succeed on the battlefield so that if and when Mr. Zelenskyy is ready to go to the
negotiating table, whenever that might be, that he do so with the strength in hand. That he has success on the battlefield behind him and he's got
wind at his back, and that's what we're focused on. And every nation inside this coalition of the willing, as we might call it, is providing
capability. Sometimes it just finances, financial support to help Ukraine get into a better position.
The strategy on the battlefield, that's got to be up to Mr. Zelenskyy and his military leaders. He's the one that's going to determine where they are
going to strike, when they are going to strike, and with what force. What we are trying to do is in advance of those operations, and we expect that
the fighting is going to continue throughout the winner, it's been a violent winter in the Donbas, and into the spring. But in advance of those
decisions, Christiane, we want to make sure that we are in lockstep with Mr. Zelenskyy and his military leaders about the capabilities he needs to
get there.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
KIRBY: A great example of this is the battalion training that we're doing outside of Ukraine at a battalion level on -- for Ukrainian battalions on
what we call combined arms maneuvers, combined arms operations. Because if you look at the Donbas, a lot of open farmlands, open terrain, that's what
Mr. Zelenskyy and his military leaders feel they need to improve. Is their combined arms operation in that part of the country going into the spring.
And so, we're doing that training outside of the country, it's not just the United States, its other nations involved. And a lot of the vehicles that
you've seen us give in just the last two weeks, the Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Striker, combat vehicles, the MRAPs, the famous MRAPs from
Iraq and Afghanistan, those mine resistant, armored protective vehicles. All of those are going to help with the Ukrainians forces in the field, in
the Donbas, in the coming months. So, we are very much trying to stay ahead of the fight as Mr. Zelenskyy seized that fight.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know what Mr. Zelenskyy seized because they say it all the time. They say it to you. They say it to the public. They say, thank
you, but they say a hundred or a thousand thanks does not mean a hundred or thousand tanks.
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So, they know what they want. You know what they want. I guess, my question is, do you see, like many strategists, that there is a window of
opportunity now to exploit Russia's apparent weakness, its inability, you know, to really double down and take so much territory before what you all
say that they are regrouping for a massive offensive in the spring.
KIRBY: Yes, yes. We are all mindful of the time component here, Christiane. And we know that time is not our friend and it's not the friend
of Ukraine. I mean, we've got, obviously, winter right now. Weather conditions are not ideal for fighting, and yet fighting continues in the
air and on the ground. We have Mr. Putin continuing to strike civilian targets with cruise missiles and drones that he's buying from Iran. And we
know, as you rightly pointed out, that he is regrouping and preparing himself for more aggressive operations to come in the next few months,
probably in the spring when the weather gets better.
So, we know we are at a critical point. President Biden has called this an inflection point. So, that's why we -- that's why you are seeing so much
energy being put in by the allies to get Ukraine the kinds of capabilities they need for these combined are maneuvers, operations, that we think
they're going to be conducting, probably, in the next few months. Obviously, we are mindful of that. And that is why you've seen two really
begin security assistance packages by the United States alone in just the last two weeks. And other nations are stepping up as well.
AMANPOUR: As a matter of national security, do you see any effect by the president that this document trove has had? Do you worry that if the
Congress gets into all of this accountability stuff that it says it's going to go into, that the eye will be taken off Ukraine?
KIRBY: We are convinced that -- and we have great bipartisan support on Capitol Hill for Ukraine. We're convinced that going forward into this
coming year, that we are going to be able to continue to provide support and assistance to Ukraine as the president has said, for long as it takes.
That is not going to change.
And again, we've got good bipartisan support. I understand there's some members out there who have been talking about cutting back on support for
Ukraine. But if you look at the leadership now in the House of Representatives, the Republican leadership, as well as in the Senate, both
sides of the aisle, both Chambers of Commerce -- Congress, there is a lot of support, and we are confident that we're going to be able to keep that
up.
I would remind that just before the end of the year, Congress appropriated another $45 billion of assistance for Ukraine. More than half of that,
Christiane, is dedicated to security assistance, weapons. And so, that will definitely take us for many months coming forward, to make sure that we can
keep pace with the operations that President Zelenskyy is conducting, and try to make sure that they are in the best position possible heading into
the spring.
AMANPOUR: Can I just say, you know, you've got -- we just started the conversation about the tanks, I mean, I guess they are the biggest, most
powerful bits of armor that everybody has. But we're also mindful that the United States says it's going to take various weapons and ammunition from
storage in Israel and other such stocks and storage. And to that point, this is what the NATO secretary-general says about actually what is really
urgently needed. I mean, it amounts to ammunition, here's what he says.
JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We need to remember that this is not only about providing new systems. It's also about ensuring that all the
weapons we have already delivered are working, are functioning as they should. Meaning that we need to supply enormous amounts of ammunition, of
spare parts, of maintenance to ensure that all of the systems which are already there are -- work as they should.
AMANPOUR: Do you find it troubling that the idea of ammunition is now something that seems to be pinching western allies, including the United
States?
KIRBY: Thank you, Christiane. I mean, I apologize it's a little noise here. The president's just arriving here on the south lawn, in Marine One.
But no, we are not at all surprised by what the secretary general said. He's absolutely right. I mean, since the beginning of this war, and it
doesn't get the headlines, but the small arms ammunition and the ammunition for artillery pieces remains a top priority for the Ukrainians.
And in every package that the United States has sent, you'll see thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition, if not hundreds of
thousands when we're talking about small arms. Because that is the bread and butter for the Ukrainian soldier on the ground. That's what they need
every single day in the fight.
And yes, we are looking at our stocks elsewhere around the world. We're working with our allies and partners who also might have stocks of their
own that they would -- might be willing to dedicate to the fight. We are going to make sure that we're looking as far afield as we can to get them
the tools, all the way down to the small arms and ammunition that they need in the fight. Obviously, we're going to make sure that our military
readiness is preserved. And the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff --
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-- with every single package that the president signs off has to certify that our military readiness is still with the appropriate level for the
threats and challenges that we face around the world.
AMANPOUR: Talking of challenges around the world, I just want to ask about Iran. I think you mentioned it. Obviously, Iran helping Russia with some of
its missiles, its killer drones, Kamikaze drones, and the like.
KIRBY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You know that the E.U. is considering designating the Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist entity. How does the United States
see that, particularly in relation to possible backlash against demonstrations. Possible backlash against --
KIRBY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- you know, the protesters there, and indeed, against any attempt to get some kind of a nuclear deal up and running again?
KIRBY: Well as you know, the United States has designated the IRGC as a foreign terrorist organization. We will certainly let our European friends
speak for themselves on this, but we do appreciate and we do note that they too see the threat posed by the IRGC and the regime in Tehran to the
fighting in Ukraine.
We've talked about this as well, that there's a burgeoning and deepening defense relationship between Iran and Russia. We know that Iran has
provided Russia with literally hundreds of these drones, these attack rounds. But that relationship is going the other way and we are, you know,
we're concerned that Russia could be providing military capabilities and support to Iran in return.
And so, it's not just a Ukrainian problem. It is not just a problem on the European continent now. This burgeoning relationship between these two
nations can half spillover effects in the Middle East if Iran were able to garner from it, additional capabilities and benefits from Russia. So, there
is a real geopolitical concern here, that is why we are calling it like we are seeing it.
I -- you know, we went out last week and made clear that we had intelligence that the North Koreans were also supporting Russia by
providing missiles and rockets, and that kind of thing. And of course, the -- right directly to the Wagner group.
So -- I mean, Russia is reaching. They don't have a lot of people they can reach out to, but they are reaching out to some countries. And again,
that's not just not good for Ukraine, it is also not good for other parts of the world.
AMANPOUR: Really extraordinary. An extraordinary moment right now. So, thank you so much for the U.S. government perspective and view. John Kirby,
thank you very much.
KIRBY: Yes, ma'am. Good to be with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The German foreign minister says, Berlin won't stand in the way of allies like Poland that want to send in the Leopard tanks. And Ukraine's
foreign minister says, he has no doubt these tanks will reach them, saying we are in the final stages. So, let's go straight to Warsaw where Marcin
Przydacz joins me. He's a foreign policy adviser to the Polish president.
Minister Przydacz, welcome to the program. Can you clear up for us tonight exactly what Poland's position is. Because on the one hand, your prime
minister says, we'll do it. On the other hand, we'll do it if we join a coalition. And then we are not quite clear. So, tell us, are your Leopard
tanks going to Ukraine and when?
MARCIN PRZYDACZ, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO POLISH PRESIDENT: Well first of all, thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here.
And good evening from Warsaw.
Our proposition is crystal clear. We want to help Ukraine as a victim of this aggression. We want to help them in this -- in the war of aggression
which was started by Russia that's why we've sent a lot of artillery system, ammunition, everything what is needed, what is possible on the --
and very much needed on the frontline down there in Donbas.
With regard to Leopards, with regards to the tanks, we've already donated almost 300 post-Soviet times which are fighting right now -- Russians in
the Ukraine. When it comes to Leopards, we want to do it in a coalition. We started this, President Duda, president of Poland said, I'm ready to send
my Leopards when there will be a coalition or a grouping of all other Leopards.
So, one company -- 12, 14 Leopards are ready to go to Ukraine. But that won't change that much, those 14 Leopards. That's why we are waiting for
other allies, including Germany, who are -- who is -- which is the biggest possible donor with regard to Leopards. They do have hundreds of them.
AMANPOUR: Right. But -- so, what are you saying? That we don't see -- you won't see your Leopards going there until and unless you have the so-called
coalition? Are you getting any responses from the countries that you are reaching out to? Who is in this coalition?
PRZYDACZ: Well, I said that is our preference because there -- this is the need of Ukrainian army to have more and more tanks with a new
counteroffensive or Russian offensive coming very soon. The time is of essence. So, the more tanks, the better. We are there, we are on board,
Brits are on board with their Challenger, the Challengers 2. Hopefully there are -- there will be other countries, at least 20 of NATO allies,
they do possess, they do have Leopards.
[13:25:00]
It is just a matter of a political decision of their political leadership. That is why we are doing our diplomatic job, trying to convince them
because the more tanks, the bigger brigade, the better chances for Ukrainians to win this war and to bring back somehow the peace and
stability.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, it just sounds weird to me. What is the problem with sending in the tanks? Even the Americans don't want to send theirs. Now
they say that the M1s are not fit for purpose in this particular -- which raises a whole another level of questions of why they've even got them if
they can't use them in this war. But what is the problem? What is a political problem as far as you are concerned in Warsaw?
PRZYDACZ: Well, I think the biggest problem is the decision of one big stakeholder, one big -- our neighbor to the west as a producer of those
tanks. There must be a consent of this capitol. They need to somehow agree on that. We are trying to convince them. We are trying to tell them how
important it is, and how important is the timing, because the price for those delays is the blood price of Ukrainian soldiers.
I -- we do believe and we do hope that this coalition will be created and that Germany will be a part of this. Once we will be done with Leopards
then then we can start any other discussion about Abrams, about any other equipment. Even the, you know, the American tanks. But having a mind of how
far the America is from the Ukrainian border, it could take much more time to provide those tanks on the Ukrainian battlefield. With Leopards in
Poland and other countries, it would be much, much easier.
AMANPOUR: And we understand there's some 2,000m around. Now, the Polish -- sorry, the German foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, says that they will
not stand in the way of countries like you if you want to send your Leopard tanks. Have you requested? Have you made the formal request, to send them?
PRZYDACZ: First, we need to be 100 percent sure that the German government would agree on that as a producer of this -- of those tanks. But we welcome
very much the statement of Madame Baerbock, the Foreign Minister of Germany. The question is whether the chancellor of Germany, Mr. Scholz,
agrees on that because there is a coalition.
Madame Baerbock is from the Greens. He is from SPD. So, social Democrats. It is kind of a steps forward in a position of Germany. But we just want to
be 100 percent sure that they agree on that fully, both, the chancellor and the foreign minister.
AMANPOUR: He -- we've just heard tonight that the Ukrainian foreign minister says he believes the negotiations for these tanks are, and his
words, in the -- at the final stage. He says, I have no doubts that the Leopards will reach us, this is Mr. Kuleba. He also said a little bit, like
what you said, you know, every day of discussions in their offices, he's telling his German counterparts, is a day a real battle and blood on the
front line.
So, how do you view this so-called window of opportunity. There seems to be certain allies, yourself amongst them, that says that we need to do
everything that we can right now before the spring to try to put ourselves in a position for Ukraine to be able to score some real victories, you
know, through the Russian front lines.
PRZYDACZ: Well, I fully agree with what you said. What we need to do is take this decision right now and right there on the -- there was an
opportunity in Ramstein, a couple of days ago. Unfortunately, some of our allies missed this opportunity, but better late than never. So, what we
need to do now is to exert a bit of kind of diplomatic nice pressure on some of those allies. Trying to encourage them. Trying to convince them
that this is the right thing to do. And the diplomatic talks should go on.
We are very much as Poland involved in those diplomatic talks. I do hope, and I am pretty sure that Washington is also very much involved in
encouraging them. But the public opinion has an immense role to play. A lot of positive things happened throughout the last couple of months because of
the pressure of media and the public opinion. That is why we need to work together. Politicians, diplomats, and the journalists, public -- the
representatives of the public opinion, we have all job to do.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh. Let me ask you about these combat aircraft. Now, it's well-known that at the very beginning of the war, Poland wanted to send
combat aircraft to Ukraine and was told no by the United States.
[13:30:00]
Now, we understand the Netherlands will send you eight F-35 fighter jets. What is this for?
PRZYDACZ: Well, I don't want to go into details in the talks about NATO allies. I mean, don't forget, we as the eastern flank member, Poland, one
of the biggest countries down here, need to be also ready to deter. I mean, we need to strengthen our presence -- NATO presence on the Polish side in
order to secure the entire alliance, the entire NATO. So, we are also encouraging our allies, Dutch, Brits, British, American, to step up with
regard to their presence -- military presence on the Polish soil.
When it comes to the aircraft, yes, you're right. We've been -- there was a proposal that our post-Soviet needs could be transferred to Ukraine. At
that time, some of our allies were very much afraid of the possible escalation. I think we have this discussion already gone, somehow done. And
there's fear for escalation is very much limited. But many of our partners understood how important is this support.
And not only humanitarian or financial support for Ukraine, but military- wise, it should be very much strengthened. I mean, those -- this support. That's why maybe one day will come back to this discussion about aircrafts.
But first of all, I will talk about it in Washington or in London, and later on, of course, I will be pleased to inform you about the outcome of
these talks.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's interesting because clearly when you say, later on, we'll come back to this. Obviously, the Ukrainians want aircraft to
respond to the fact that Russians use aircrafts against their troops. And they want to have the opportunity to do that as well. Are you saying that
these F-35s that the Netherlands give you could free up some of your jets now to send to Ukraine?
PRZYDACZ: Well, I would say that the Russian -- Russians are shelling not only Ukrainian troop. Unfortunately they are attacking also civilian
infrastructure, critical infrastructure for the Ukrainian economy, for Ukrainian state. We've seen a lot of pictures and, you know, videos of
ordinary people suffering because of those attacks. That's why Ukraine needs also the anti-air system. I mean, to defend themselves. Anti-aircraft
is part of this -- it could be part of this system.
So, whenever Russians would be attacking again civilian infrastructure again, mothers and kids will be killed in Ukraine. Then we, as the
collective west, we need to think about what to do with regard to this. The donation of Patriot System was a good decision. Maybe there will be a means
to step up with regards to the other kinds of equipment.
I cannot exclude any scenario at this very moment. But I don't want to confirm what our -- the plans of all of us. Of course, the needs of
Ukrainians are quite high. There is a question, what can we, as the western partners and allies, grow -- offer them and how can we provide our
assistance?
AMANPOUR: As you know, countries like yourself, the Baltics and others, are believed that if you just step up we are talking about right now, there
could be a major victory, or at least, you know, something that would make Putin come to the negotiating table. On the other hand, the Americans,
you've heard the Chairman of the Joint Chief, Milley, say that they don't think that will happen this year. What do you think when you see the
battlefield, when you've seen what's happened over nearly a year?
PRZYDACZ: Well, what I'm 100 percent sure, of is that the Ukrainian army had enough equipment, and this highly advanced -- technologically advanced
equipment, that would be doing much better -- on the frontline and maybe we would already be in a different position and a different situation. We are
pretty sure that what can make Mr. Putin think about real, sincere negotiations is the defeat of Russia.
They need to somehow understand that they are losing this war, that could be the very beginning of the diplomatic talks. Any premature diplomatic
time or diplomatic talks could be perceived by this former KGB officer with a very possessive (ph) menttlity as a sign of weakness of the west, od the
U.S., or all of us. So, we need to make sure that they do not miscalculate. I mean, the Russians, they do not miscalculate our position.
[13:35:00]
So, first help Ukraine. Then, make him understand that he is losing and then can start any possible talks, how can he withdraw from the independent
territory -- of the southern territory of Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: And finally, they have said in -- from the Kremlin today, that this -- whatever you want to call it, disagreement spat between NATO over
tanks shows the nervousness of NATO. In other were, they see and smell a split in the alliance. Is that correct?
PRZYDACZ: No, I wouldn't say there is -- they should not be so satisfied. There is no satisfaction for the Kremlin because in Ramstein, there were a
very -- they were taking very potent decision when it came to ammunition, Patriot Systems, anti-air defense systems. A lot of good things happen
during this meeting. A lot of good decisions taken.
There is only one still decision, which is this Leopard thing. But don't worry, we will succeed in this. We will find a common solution, both
Poland, Germany, U.S., will absolutely will be on the same -- the side on - - the side of the democratic values -- of the values which unites us.
AMANPOUR: All right. Thank you so much, indeed, Mr. Przydacz. Thank you very much indeed.
PRZYDACZ: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Now, a second chance at life is something many people would like but very few people get. Delia Ephron is the screenwriter behind
blockbuster rom-com's like, "You've Got Mail", directed by her late sister, Norah Ephron.
In her memoir, "Left on Tenth", Delia details how her life has, at time, felt like one of those films. It's about finding love after loss and
exploring this love during her treatment for leukemia. Delia, who is in remission, tells Walter Isaacson what she has learned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTER ISAACSON, CNN HOST: Thank, you Christiane. And Delia Ephron, welcome to the show.
DELIA EPHRON, AUTHOR, "LEFT ON TENTH": Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
ISAACSON: Your book coming out in paperback now, it begins almost like one of the screenplays you did. Sort of a big thing, but also how it becomes
personal. Your husband died and then you have to try to disconnect his phone line. Tell me about that.
EPHRON: Well, I called up Verizon because I needed to disconnect his landline and they disconnected my internet by accident. And then I spent
days, nights, on the phone begging them to fix it. And they couldn't just fix it. So, I'm in this rage. And what I always do when I get angry as I
write about it and I try to make it funny. So, I wrote this piece sort of about Verizon and also losing my husband.
So, it was sort of sad and funny, and it was in "The New York Times". And it gotten -- it turns out everyone hates their phone company. So, I got
just a ton of mail, just unbelievable amount of mail. And then a few months later I got an e-mail from Peter. And Peter is a union analyst psychiatrist
living in the bay area, in Marin County and -- just north of San Francisco. And he said we had two dates 54 years ago. OK. I was almost 18 years old,
right? So, I did not remember him. At all.
But this letter was so charming. So, we started -- and he lost his life, recently. And we started to communicate by e-mail. So, it was -- I'm
embarrassed to say, I actually did think I had fallen into my own romantic comedy because that is what they do when "You've Got Mail", right? They're
in love in -- on e-mail and they don't know each other. Well, they do know each, they hate each other. But either -- we didn't have that part. But,
anyway -- so, we just began to e-mail constantly about everything. And all day and all night and we just fell in love.
ISAACSON: You know, you're right. It's like one of the romantic comedies that you and your late sister, Nora Ephron, wrote like "You've Got Mail".
And one of the things that she has written, and it, sort of, comes across in your book is one way to control some processing of pain or anything else
is to control the narrative. To write about it. How does that help you process what you go through in life?
EPHRON: It get -- it means I get in control. It is my story now. You are not doing it to me. It's my story now. And that, of course. became the most
important thing to me because after I met Peter and fell madly in love with him, I got leukemia.
[13:40:00]
And it was -- I mean, this book of mine, "Left on Tenth" is a collision of love and illness. And amazingly, here I am. I survived it. But it was so
traumatic, the entire process of trying to get well, that getting to write about it was the most marvelous thing in the world. I thought it was --
everyone kept saying, wasn't it awful to have to revisit it? No. It was so powerful to get to sit down and make it my story.
ISAACSON: You were diagnosed with leukemia and it's the same type of leukemia, I think, that afflicted your sister, Nora --
EPHRON: Yes.
ISAACSON: -- and she died from. And in the book too, you say, I am not my sister. Tell me how you wrestled with that connection.
EPHRON: You know, I was a second born, all right. And Nora was, like, a shot out of a cannon. And she was going around the track so fast. I mean, I
couldn't keep up even though I was trying. And I realized when I got older, you know, especially when you become a writer, you have to differentiate
your writing is your fingerprint.
And so, I had spent my life, even though we collaborated, I wrote my own books. I wrote novels. I did all sorts of things. As well as live my life,
that was mine. And then when I got the same illness she did, I -- it felt like not being like her was betrayal. It just flipped on me. And my doctors
all knew that this was a problem. That they were the ones who said to me, you are not your sister. I didn't say to myself. They said, you are not
your sister. You can have a different outcome. They felt I needed to believe that in order to survive.
And it was very -- my doctors were so smart with me, psychologically. Because, of course, I was in the same hospital she was in. They would never
put me in the same room. They were very -- they -- they knew we were so tight and they knew that I needed that to make it.
ISAACSON: You kept your diagnosis secret, which your sister Nora also did, famously. Kept it a secret. And yet in the book, you talk about how secrets
can eat you up. Tell me why you kept it secret and what it did to you?
EPHRON: I kept it secret in the beginning because I thought if it got out, people were going to, say oh, her sister died, she is dying too. So, I just
did it to protect my hope. And it didn't suit me. I mean, you know, one of that -- I am not my sister, she could do that for years. You know, she kept
her illness secret. I -- it -- I could go out to lunch with friends and I felt like I wasn't being honest.
So, when I went into remission the first time, I told everybody. And I actually wrote it in a "New York Times" piece in order that everyone got
the same story. And I -- it didn't -- if it was going to be out there in some way on the web, it would be out there my way. I was very aware of
that. And then I never kept it a secret, and I was so relieved.
One of the things about being a patient is that you are still that same person. You will be who you are when you are sick. Don't fight that, you
know. I knew I had great friends. I knew I had to pick which ones were the best to take the journey with me. I knew I had Peter who was a doctor.
ISAACSON: The book is very much about friendship and about friends.
EPHRON: Yes.
ISAACSON: Is there any secret you can give us about friendship?
EPHRON: You know, no. I think it's like a talent or something. I mean, I think it's something that you either have a -- I mean, I think women are
better at it than men. They are more intimate. It is about sharing, I think. But, you know, I always say to people, be careful who you take on a
journey with you when you get sick. I'm just fanatic about this. Because you know which friends are going to be wonderful to you in that hospital
and you know which are going to bring in trouble. So, it's not a party. You know, be careful who you invite to go with you on that trip.
ISAACSON: The bone marrow transplant you had was a real scientific breakthrough. Something new. To what extent did you try to understand it?
And did you -- you kept in touch with one of the bone marrow donors, right? What was that about?
EPHRON: Yes, if you have a bone marrow transplant and you have it from a donor who is alive, you can get it from cord blood which a mother donates
when she gives birth. By the way, please donate your cord blood. It's otherwise thrown in the trash and it can save a life, or you can get it
from an adult donor. And I had a very sophisticated cutting-edge transplant.
[13:45:00]
I had two donors. I had an adult donor and the cord blood from a birth. And I was allowed to contact my donor, my adult donor, Casey -- which she
doesn't like me to use her last name. She's quite modest about it.
ISAACSON: And when you asked Casey why did she do, it what did she say?
EPHRON: Her mother was a nurse and she told her about it. And she was -- you know, it's better the younger your transplant, the better your odds.
The stem cells are richer when you're younger, their stem cells are richer. So, she said her mother told her about it and she said to me, I think
everyone should do it.
And so, she registered. I was just stunned, really, because I was thinking, you know, being that young, did she -- you know, how could she know that
the feelings of mortality that somebody I've -- you know, something that I feel in my 70s. You know, that there are -- she's such -- must be such a
compassionate person. I mean, she's just simply charming, we text and everything, but it seems so wise and thoughtful.
It's not, you know, getting one, receiving a transplant is grueling. But giving is nothing, it's very little. She had to have a checkup. She had
some shots before, the week before. She was told not to eat certain things. And she went to the hospital and she is hooked up to a machine for five
hours that takes her blood out, takes the stem cells, harvest them, and puts her blood back in. It's like a transfusion that goes, you know, out
and in.
ISAACSON: If people want to do this, what do they do? Go online and look for what?
EPHRON: Yes, just -- you go to -- if you're in -- the states -- just got to be a match. They'll send you a kit, you swab the inside of your mouth,
send it back, and you are register. And one day, maybe, with thrilling unexpectedness, you will get a phone call saying that there is someone out
there whose life you can save. And that -- and you may never get the call. I mean, the odds are not that high. But if you do, I mean, thank God,
Casey, she was thrilled. She's -- I mean, I think she said it was one of the most wonderful things she'd ever done. I mean, how fabulous?
ISAACSON: You were so sick at one point that you asked the people around you to help you die. You asked your doctor that. You write about telling
your doctor, here are your words, I want out. I can't take another pill. I can't take another pill. I can take another pill. I say that over and over.
I want to die. What I am saying sounds strong, but I am nearly a skeleton, limp as a rag, on oxygen, unable to stand up without help, hardly able to
sit up, my voice barely over a whisper. Tell us about that time and how your doctor responded to you.
EPHRON: Well, I was -- I mean, it was grueling, all right. I was in the hospital 100 days. I was extremely sick with what this thing called Graft
vs. Host Disease which means that your body is attacking the transplant, it doesn't want it to work. And so, what they need to do is get you through
that time. And I got immensely depressed.
I mean, I am not a depressive. So, I did not know about that. You know, I have friends who've had depressive episodes and -- but this -- it's
stunning to be so dark. It really is. I mean, I was begging everyone to let me go. And my doctor, I texted my doctor and I said, you know, I want to
die, please just let me go. And she came in and, you know, she said, I don't think this is that time. But I said, please, please. And she said,
give me 48 hours. And if I get somewhere, give me another 48.
And I thought, I -- at -- I thought hope in an endgame in one sentence. I mean, how brilliant was that? And she didn't say, in six months you're
going to be feeling fabulous, you're going to be so glad. She knew I needed something small. I needed an immediate thing. And so, she said give me 48
hours. And about 48 hours later I was of oxygen, and my counts got better.
But I -- to this day, I think, how brilliant she was to understand that I just needed -- she knew I needed a little hope. But she didn't make it. She
just knew how to give it to me. I mean, she was a -- she's an amazing doctor, this is Dr. Gail Roboz at Weill Cornell in New York City. I think
she's a genius. And that's one reason I'm here. Oh, also, my other doctor, Dr. Koen van Besien who is a transplant doctor.
ISAACSON: These types of things can be really tough on relationships. Tell me how you and Peter held it together.
[13:50:00]
EPHRON: We had just fallen in love. So, we were in the height of that heavy thing that happens. It wasn't any different at 72 than it had been at
32 when I had fallen in love with Jerry. It was so -- we got married in the hospital, which was few friends came and it was pretty amazing and also
sad.
And the thing about Peter was, he had lost his mother when he was seven. He was playing outside and his mother was out there with him and she crossed
the street and was hit by a car. And so, he -- I think had trauma from such a young age that he had learned -- I mean, he is now a psychiatrist. I
think he really learned to take care of himself and of other people.
And so, in the hospital, he was so constant and so present. I mean, he was remarkable. The odd thing is then you sort of have to -- when you get well,
you sort of, have to put a normal relationship back together. So, I was very surprised when we began to have arguments and things like normal
couples. But in the hospital, he was phenomenal.
And it's important to have someone with you, I think, if you can have it. I think COVID has made all of these treatments much harder because there was
a period where you had to get a bone marrow transplant during COVID, you could not have anybody with you. I don't know how you would survive it.
ISAACSON: You're collaborating on something called the Empathy Project. Tell me about that.
EPHRON: The Empathy Project is a project which creates films to teach empathy to doctors. If you've -- I don't know if you have ever had episodes
with doctors where you felt ignored, not heard, misunderstood, or -- it's - - I had this one doctor when I was sick who walked into the room and said, you might be immune to this drug, CPX-351. I knew if I was immune to this
drug I was going to die, because I needed to be put into remission, and I knew this drug was the one that could do it.
Why did that doctor say that to me? There I was, feeling completely vulnerable. I went crazy with rage. I just -- and I -- and you know, you're
just sitting there in the hospital, center of attention, no power. And this doctor has just said something really stupid to you. And it gets into your
head. And we've all -- we're all patients at one time or another.
We all have our doctor stories, good and bad. And if I can put some films out into the world that help medical students become better doctors, and
that's what they are. It's a brainchild of a doctor called Dr. Jon LaPook, who is the CBS Chief Medical Correspondent, as well as a practicing
physician. And he's passionate about it and so am I.
I mean -- and last year we did this wonderful film about implicit bias, just an eight-minute animated film about trying to help doctors understand
what their biases are and what the patient feels like in that room. So, that is with the Empathy Project does. I'm very happy to be involved in it.
I think it's a wonderful project.
ISAACSON: And in some ways, your book is sort of an empathy project.
EPHRON: Yes, it is. It definitely is.
ISAACSON: It teaches people empathy. Tell me what you learned about empathy.
EPHRON: I suppose I had empathy for myself in a way because I knew that by -- look, it you go through trauma like this that I did, it was a year of my
life and it was frightening. I got to write it. And if you write it, it becomes yours. And if there is anything you can do with the trauma, if you
can dance it, draw it, paint it, write it, do an oral history of it, anything that helps you get control of something that you went through. I
think it makes you process it better.
ISAACSON: Delia Ephron, think you so much for joining us.
EPHRON: Thank you. I am delighted. It was wonderful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Empathy and an education from Delia Ephron.
And finally, tonight, a historical homecoming. 60 looted antiquities have been returned to Italy by the United States. They date as far back as the
first century A.D. And include the marble head of Athena which has been on display in New York's the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
This is happening more and more now as countries try to reckon with their colonial past. One of the most contentious disputes is over the British
museum's collection of the Parthenon marbles, stripped from the Parthenon in the early 19th century and long sought by Greece. They're properly known
as the Elgin Marbles, both sides confirmed discussions are underway. Tough though.
[13:55:00]
That's it for now. You can always catch us online, on our podcast, and across social media. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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