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Amanpour
Interview With Ukrainian Deputy Minister Of Foreign Affairs Emine Dzhaparova; Interview With Historian And Great-Granddaughter Of Nikita Khrushchev Nina Khrushcheva; Interview With Grammy Award-Winning Jazz Singer Samara Joy. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired February 24, 2023 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to AMANPOUR live from the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv. Here's what's
coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: (Speaking in a foreign language).
CROWD: (Speaking in a foreign language).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A somber mood across Ukraine as it marks the first anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion. And President Zelenskyy vows a victory
this year. I'm joined by Ukraine's Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. Then, what the war says about Russian society with Nina Khrushcheva,
historian, and descendant of the former soviet beat leaner, Nikita Khrushchev. Also, ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMARA JOY, SINGER: Guess who I saw today, my dear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The best new artist at this year's Grammy's, jazz singer, Samara Joy, tells Michel Martin about her journey to this breakthrough moment.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Kyiv, Ukraine.
One year ago today, the world really changed when Russia marched across the border into Ukraine for its full-scale war. On February 24th, 2022, many
thought Kyiv, this capital, will fall in a matter of days. But 365 days later, Kyiv still stands and it is still free. Autocracy has been weakened,
democracy stands stronger, and the NATO alliance is more united than it ever was.
Even the United Nations, where Russia has allowed voice with its seat on the security council, has rallied against the invasion. The general
assembly has voted again to condemn Putin's war. Today, Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy visited injured soldiers in the hospital,
and he addressed his troops, telling them that over the next year he wants victory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): A fierce year of invincibility, its main conclusion is that we have survived. We
have not been defeated and we will do everything to win this year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It is, of course, a lofty goal. But President Zelenskyy received a major boost on this anniversary from the Polish Prime Minister who
arrived with Ukraine's first Leopard tanks, only a few, but it is symbolically important. Just hours ago, President Zelenskyy held a press
conference, and I asked him about the staying power of his allies, and Russia, and of course, of his own forces.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, I'm interested in the timeline, today on the anniversary, you spoke to your own forces and you called for victory within
this year. You have heard the western friends, your partners, talk about as long as it takes. You know that the Russian leader believes that time is on
his side. Why do you think that it's possible by the end of the year, and how do you assess the meaning of, as long as it takes, from your Ukrainian
perspective?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Thank you for the question. Indeed, I want to, very much. If each of us, each partner, and we in our country, if we
stay as one fist, one strong fist and work towards victory, this is a victory of values. If they stick to their words, to their terms, and it's
not just blah, blah, blah, I believe in it. We have been partners, strong partners, and there is evidence to that. If we all do our important
homework, victory will be inevitable. I am certain, there will be victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, to dig deeper, now joining me is Emine Dzhaparova. She is Ukraine's deputy minister of foreign affairs. Welcome.
EMINE DZHAPAROVA, UKRAINIAN DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: My pleasure to be here.
AMANPOUR: One of the things that was so, I guess, moving was when a journalist asked the president in his press conference, what was the most
difficult moment of this entire year. And he said, the most frightening, the most awful, was Bucha, when he went to visit and saw what he saw. I
want to ask you, what was the most difficult moment? Was it the day the war started?
[13:05:00]
DZHAPAROVA: No, it was two weeks after. When -- actually, when I left the capital, the first day of -- together with a part of the government, we
were evacuated at the western part the country and then I had only my handbag with me. No -- nothing, no clothes, nothing.
And one of my friends collected my things, my belongings to a suitcase and brought it to Ivano-Frankivsk. And when I touch my belongings, I actually
burst into tears. This was the first time when I allowed myself to cry. It was in two weeks after the beginning of the war. And this was the moment
when my psycho -- when I understood what happened to my country.
AMANPOUR: And when did you come back to take park in government?
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, so I was there together with the part of the government and in a month after. So, at the end of March, at the beginning of April, I
went back to Kyiv. And you know, a very personal reflection, I was so happy to see a traffic jam, and I also cried. And I never thought that I would be
the happiest person ever to see a traffic jam in Kyiv in the middle of April.
AMANPOUR: And it's because, at the time, your forces repelled the Russians from the siege that they were trying to lay to this capital.
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, absolutely.
AMANPOUR: Did you believe that? I mean so many people outside just did not think Ukraine would last even a few days or weeks.
DZHAPAROVA: Look. I mean, even though we have not won yet, but I think Russia has already lost it. And a year ago, we were desperate and we were
scared. But today, we have no fear and we are hopeful because -- I mean, never -- nobody thought that we could resist that long.
So, when the question is asked, how long we would resist? I think it's not an option of choice. I mean, we never chose this war. We are the most
interested country of having the peace. But I think that the most amazing thing happened that actually we understood that we can resist and it's an
existential issue of survival.
AMANPOUR: I do find it extraordinary from so many of you who say that you're optimistic, you have no more fear. I remember once asking the
president, he has no fear in what I call, poking the bear. He's constantly trolling Putin, along with your other officials, and doing things that
maybe others outside might think would cause Putin to react. But he said, we have no choice. We have to go all the way.
DZHAPAROVA: Do you know what he says when, actually, different officials come to see him, he says, I don't have time. I have to be honest. I have to
be frank. And I -- and he usually speaks straight to the point, he always says what he thinks because he is a president at war. So, he really has to
push, and I think he's brilliant in doing so because without his leadership, he wouldn't have this support, I'm sure.
AMANPOUR: So, what do you think then, has he pushed enough for enough weaponry to actually get you over that line? Because right now, it appears
that there's -- you know, stasis. I mean, it's bad on the eastern front.
DZHAPAROVA: Let me quote him, once again. He says that enough is when the war is over. Until it's not over, it's not enough. So of course, he will
keep on pushing because I think, as he just said during the press conference, he said, the only thing that we can do is actually demonstrate
unity.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
DZHAPAROVA: Because if you compare Russian and Ukraine, I mean, we are talking about nuclear power country. We're talking about the second largest
army in the world, and I think that Ukraine has destroyed this myth about Russia being the second largest army in the world. And this is amazing
because no one knew, no one thought that we would resist that long.
But if we look in the future, we have to be also honest because our future depends on us. We are making this future. And if we're not able to unite
this and we are -- we're not able to continue this war here in Ukraine, I'm sure that it will become bigger.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
DZHAPAROVA: Because the nature of aggression is always the same, when it's not stopped, it becomes bigger.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to talk to you in a minute about that because you are a Crimean Tatar. You essentially were invaded and annexed in 2014.
We'll get to that. But on this issue of Putin and the nuclear, and this and that. Even Prime Minister Orban of Hungary, I mean, normally he is a member
of the E.U, a member of NATO, and he has said that one has to be careful not to corner a nuclear arms nation. And yes, the invasion is bad, but do
you worry that some countries may -- more and more countries maybe -- may come to fear that?
DZHAPAROVA: Well, I think that the only thing and the tactics of Russia, which is very natural for the country that projects fear and it's very
natural to blackmail other countries. And unfortunately, we still have some countries who fear. Because I'm sure that if we follow this fear, we will
lose.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
DZHAPAROVA: So, as I said, we don't have this fear anymore. We had it a year ago, but today you hardly can find someone who is scared. So, the only
option, actually, is not to have fear because otherwise if you fear it means that Putin wins.
AMANPOUR: He believes, Putin, and that time is on his side. That he will outlast the -- what he believes is a weak and eventually, you know,
disunited Europe and NATO. Do you think time is on your side or on his side?
[13:10:00]
DZHAPAROVA: I think that we should not speak about time because -- I mean, of course, the sooner we end this war is better for my country because we
are dying and the war is taking place on Ukrainian soil.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DZHAPAROVA: But I think that our advantage is unity and this is what also Putin underestimated. Because when they invaded my country, they really
thought that they would take control of Kyiv in three days or seven days.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
DZHAPAROVA: But what they have seen instead, is not only the resistance of my country, but also this huge and tremendous unity of the world. So, this
is the only way how it should work.
AMANPOUR: Talking about speed, I do actually want to play a little bit of an interview that I did with your boss, the Foreign Minister Kuleba, when
essentially President Zelenskyy, in Munich had portrayed this as David versus Goliath, and asked for speed, hurry, hurry up, he said to the world.
You know, we need to strengthen David's sling. And this is what the foreign minister told me too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: If the word of 2022 for us was weapons, the words for 2023 are speed, speed of deliver, and
sustainability. Everything that has been pledged has to arrive on time to be relevant. It's important, you know, it has to be relevant. Relevant for
the purposes of our victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Do you share that concern that, actually, they need to get these things here really rapidly now? That speed is this year's word?
DZHAPAROVA: He's my boss, of course I do.
AMANPOUR: Right. OK. Silly question. But let me ask you this then, this way, because President Zelenskyy mentioned it in his press and actually the
western leaders are also concerned about it. And that is, there are important countries, who are not on board with the narrative. Yes, they all
vote against the invasion. But no, they don't believe in necessarily what is happening here.
So, you know, South Africa is currently conducting naval exercises with China and with, you know, and with Russia. African countries, you know,
look at the west and say, are you being a little hypocritical here? And your president did discuss that more work needs to be done on getting more
on board. Tell me about that. How will you do that?
DZHAPAROVA: You know, we are guided by one simple motto. Actually, something that our president gave us. He says, we are living in
extraordinary times and these extraordinary times need extraordinary decisions, and nothing is impossible.
AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.
DZHAPAROVA: So, when we started the anti-Putin coalition, we never thought that we would have one third of the globe in that coalition. We never
thought that we could suspend Russia from council of Europe or from the Human Rights Council. So, we are -- we witnessed something that we never
had in our history. So, when we speak about a possibility and a chance to get more and more countries on board, it means that we have to be more
active in our communication.
By the way, President Zelenskyy made a priority for Ukraine in diplomacy, global south. Meaning that we have to be much more present in Africa, in
Asia, in Latin America.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DZHAPAROVA: Because before that, we were in line -- I mean, our foreign policy was, in many ways, dependent on Russia. I mean, before 2014, we had
the spirit (ph) of time in Russia really impacted it. So, Russia was never interested in us being a strong country, in us being or having independent
foreign policy. So today, we are going and, you know, taking business takes, and changing them, and shaping a new policy.
AMANPOUR: China has now entered the fray. We don't know whether it's going to, actually, deliver weapons to Russia. The American say they don't know
yet. What are your thoughts about that? I know you engaged with the Chinese. And again, President Zelenskyy talked about, you know, I've seen
this peace plan. On one hand it's good because they're talking about Ukraine, they voted against, you know, the invasion -- well, they declared
they're against, you know, invasions of territory and territorial integrity. What do you think about what China has just put out into the
public?
DZHAPAROVA: Information about the weapon supply to Russia is a rumor as of now. So, we rely on official communication that we have, and we have
assurances from the Chinese side that they will not supply weapons to Russia. So, this is the position and this is our stance.
Second, it's not a piece plan, unfortunately. It's just a position of China with 12 points, kind of, shaping some general things which is -- which we
are -- which we do agree to a certain extent, but sometimes, and I think the most tricky issue is that there is something that might seem as
appeasement. Because when you speak about peace, it should be a fair peace, not appeasement if. Because if we speak about ceasefire, we should not deal
ceasefire on the coast of merit or interest of my country. And it should be the basis that territorial integrity and sovereignty should be respected
properly.
AMANPOUR: So not on the cost of --
DZHAPAROVA: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: -- your sovereignty of territory.
DZHAPAROVA: This is what the Ukrainian leadership is very clear about, as well as our president.
AMANPOUR: OK.
DZHAPAROVA: And by the way, he also performed a 10-peace formula, right?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
[13:15:00]
DZHAPAROVA: These are 10 simple points that are about peace.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And his 10 simple points are very maximalist because they include the removal of all Russian forces from all territory, including
Crimea and what was taken in 2014. So, take us back to that moment, were you there when the Russians came in and annexed and what was it like for a
minority like the Tatars there?
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, I was there. I witnessed the occupation. And you know, two reflections. The first one is that I understood that President Putin
lies, because when he was asked at a press conference if this was a Russian army, he said, no. These are local people. These are self-defense guys who
can go and buy the military uniform in a shop. Just go and buy. So, I thought -- because we knew exactly who were these fully equipped men.
And the second, as a journalist, I traveled Crimea back and forth and I saw with my own eyes what happened the peninsula. And there was a very small
press conference room where the occupants have already informed us about the results of so cold, referendum. And one man with this -- with a T-shirt
name Russia, he came, he just put his tripod and camera on the top and started filming. And another journalist came up, hardly speaking Russian,
he said, could you please remove your tripod because you obstacle the moment. And in a very brutal way he said, this is my homeland now. And
don't you dare tell me where can I film and where I cannot.
AMANPOUR: A Russian said that to a Crimean?
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, and I was just in a meter and silently witnessing that I know it was real. And in that very moment, I understood what happened to my
homeland. And unfortunately, Crimean Tatars is an indigenous population. They suffer the most because of Crimean Tatars physically exist, it kills
the main myth about Crimea that is a sacred land of Russia. It's not.
AMANPOUR: Crimean Tatars belie that --
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, because --
AMANPOUR: -- that myth of Russians.
DZHAPAROVA: We were born as a nation on the Ukrainian soil, and all of our history is actually for the last several centuries when Catherine II
annexed Crimea in 18th century, what she did, the first thing, she started oppressing Crimean Tatars. And in 100 years after, one-third of the
population left the peninsula. And then Stalin continued in 1944 with his exile, when every second Crimean Tatar die, it was a genocide. And then in
2014, Putin continued this oppressive force. So, of course, when we speak Crimean Tatars, it's important to know the history.
AMANPOUR: And we are going to actually, you know, in a moment, we're going to have a report on cultural identity here and that they have tried to
crush it from the very beginning. Putin said Ukraine does not exist. And obviously, this year has proved completely the opposite.
DZHAPAROVA: Yes, and I think what's most important that Ukrainians have a belief into Ukrainian, this is probably what we did not expect from
ourselves. We really became a nation. So, I think this is what makes a big difference between us and Russia. And this perverted way of thinking when
President Putin questions the very existence of my country, the language, the history, this is a very classic, imperialistic, and chauvinistic
approach.
AMANPOUR: Emine Dzhaparova, Deputy Foreign Minister, thank you very much - -
DZHAPAROVA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: -- for being with us on this day.
Now, for a whole year, Russia has tried to not only break Ukraine as a nation, but as we were just discussing, to also try to crush its identity.
But underestimated was the grit, the determination, the patriotism of the Ukrainian people who simply refused to give up their borders or their
culture.
Today, Slava Ukraini is reflecting a rallying cry for that resistance. Now, it's spoken and known all over the world. Here in Kyiv, I visited the war
insulation and the national history museum. And I looked at how the people have given their all to stay strong and proud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Perhaps there is no more powerful sense of belonging than this. Yaryna and Sviatoslav deciding marry in their orthodox church,
the very day Russia invaded and tried to claim their national identity. Instead of a honeymoon, they joined the territorial defense against the
siege of their capital Kyiv. Today, looking over the year of living dangerously, the young couple takes stock.
SVIATOSLAV FURSIN, FORMER TERRITORIAL DEFENSE VOLUNTEER: Only when you see death, you understand the value of life and in my case, it's totally 100
percent.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): This war is a tale of epic resistance by a whole nation and the civilians who became overnight soldiers.
YARYNA ARIEVA, FORMER TERRITORIAL DEFENSE VOLUNTEER: This one year of the war, it really feels like 40 years of life. I don't feel myself so young
again, anymore, just because of the -- all experience, of all the things you have seen.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): They remind us just how much has been lost. Everyone has family, friends, killed or wounded. When Ukraine broke that long siege
around Kyiv, revealing unimaginable horrors and crimes against humanity in Bucha, it stiffened, not softened the peoples' resistance on their resolve.
[13:20:00]
Any peace negotiations would now have to include prosecutions and justice. And an end to any Russian claims on their territory or their identity. When
we visited the newly-liberated suburb of Borodyanka last April, even monuments to Ukrainian art, and literature weren't spared. We witnessed the
deliberate assault on their cultural heritage.
AMANPOUR (on camera): So, this Is Vladimir Putin's idea of liberating a fraternal brotherly nation. So, either he's doing all this because he loves
Ukrainians, or as many believe, because he's motivated by a rising hatred, and anger at their westward loving democracy, at their resistance, and at
the refusal to come under Russian control.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): From Kharkiv to Kherson, Odessa to Donbas, museums, opera houses, and art have been targeted, looted, and destroyed. And yet a
heroic effort to save and protect this heritage has been underway since the first missile struck. Here, at the national museum of the history of
Ukraine, an exhibit on this past year of war. And especially reminders that so many Russian targets were clearly marked, children, people live here.
Former deputy culture minister, Olesia Ostrovska-Liuta tells us that across the country, many curators took shelter inside, with their collections.
OLESIA OSTROVSKA-LIUTA, FORMER UKRAINIAN DEPUTY CULTURE MINISTER: That's the situation of, virtually, every Ukrainian museum. You can't have objects
from the collection, museum objects on display. They have to be secured. They have to be cared for.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): The installation hanging in this stairwell reminds us the war actually began in 2014 with Putin's annexation of Crimea,
invasion of Donbas, an attempt to crush an independent nation calling this russkiy mir, greater Russia. Olesia calls that absurd.
OSTROVSKA-LIUTA: I don't think this is Ukrainian identity. There is a problem at all in this war, it's Russia's identity. If Russian identity is
imperial, Ukraine is essential part of it.
AMANPOUR: Right.
OSTROVSKA-LIUTA: But if you rethink Russian identity as a non-imperial identity, then you do not need Ukraine, Poland, Baltic states within your
realm (ph).
AMANPOUR (voiceover): That of course is the point of Putin's war, to crush this democracy, whose now world-famous flag was first publicly raised in
1990, just ahead of independence. Before that, the soviets would've jailed anyone caught carrying it. Today, Olesia says, it remains a symbol of
courage, resistance, and statehood.
AMANPOUR (on camera): Nobody, a year ago, thought that this country would still be standing. I mean, we thought that that flag would not exist
anymore. That this would be Russia again.
OSTROVSKA-LIUTA: We didn't think that, at all. At all.
ARIEVA: I remember that --
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Like, Ukrainians across this country, newlyweds, Yaryna and Sviatoslav will mark this dark year of war and their own first
anniversary, remembering why they struggled and what they stand for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, Russians are also suffering as President Putin wages war on Ukraine. The country's economy has been savaged by nine rounds of sanction
over the past year, with another on the way. And across Russia, sons, fathers, brothers are coming home in body bags. Sacrificed for Putin's war
on its neighbor.
Historian, Nina Khrushcheva is also a direct descendant, the great granddaughter of the Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, and she's joining me
now from New York.
NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, HISTORIAN AND GREAT-GRANDDAUGHTER OF NIKITA KHRUSHCHEV: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Nina Khrushcheva welcome back to our program --
KHRUSHCHEVA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: -- where you have always given us, you know, such an importantly historical context. So, I want to start by asking you on this anniversary,
just what your thoughts are. And the word anniversary is inappropriate, but what your thoughts are, what your country has done to this one.
KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, thank you. The word anniversary is inappropriate. So, it's a year marking the special military operation it's called in Moscow,
in Russia, the war in Ukraine. What I'm thinking, I think the day began, it was hard to believe that it was happening, that in fact Russia is bombing
the nation the Putin himself called brotherly and very close. So, that was inconceivable.
And today, we are waking up thinking that our worst nightmare has materialized. So, we though that one day or soon enough, somehow, it's
going to be over and we'll wake up and turn out to be a horrible dream. It's not a horrible dream. I mean, it is a horrible thing, but it's not a
horrible dream. It's reality. And doesn't seem like it's going to stop anytime soon.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, that was, obviously, going to be part of my next question. And of course, you're in New York now but you spent months of this war in
Moscow, in your home there. And you were able to, you know talk to people, see people, take the pulse and see how it's affecting Russian people. So,
tell me now what it's doing to Russians, good, bad, evil, indifferent. What is it doing to the people there?
KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, I mean, I think we already spoke about this. I don't want to repeat myself but something that I was thinking how to phrase it
today, and it does seem that Russia is in a state of suspension of sorts, sort of. It's -- and especially Putin spoke about the war, not today,
interestingly they chose to be silent, but about the war in the 21st to his address to the federation council.
And he spoke about it as, you know, every Russian supports it. It's menacing west. We are going to prevail because they want the Russian not to
exist. But he didn't really offer any promise or any solution. He just said it's going to be better. It's going to be great when we win. When we win,
how we win, what's going to be better, being cut off from the rest of the world today.
As -- yesterday was the declaration of United Nations' resolution, 141 countries. So, it's -- what, two -- no three-fourth of the United Nations
voted against it. So, Russians are suspended in their despair and fear. But also, the human rights problems are traumatic, are horrible. And it's -- in
a year, say, Russia had human rights pulled back to 90 percent. Now, it's 99.5, everything, every outlet is closed. And as Dmitry Muratov, the Nobel
Peace Prize winner, the editor of Novaya Gazeta, also now close says, Russian media now is VPN because that's the only way you can get access to
the rest of the world.
AMANPOUR: I want -- because I have you here and you're the great- granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, I think you were born just a couple years after the Cuban missile crisis. But, look, he was a real-life nuclear
crisis in the middle of the cold war between the United States and the Soviet Union, and yet there was the ability to convince, at least the U.S.,
convinced your great-grandfather that moving the missiles would be better for him than leaving them there. Can you see any possibility, in today's
history, today's moment of some kind of conversation between American authorities and Russian authorities now about this?
KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, it seems that today they just want too far. But also, let's remember that both John Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev were officers
during World War II, so, they actually knew what the war was. And when Kennedy convinced Khrushchev that getting rockets out of Cuba would be
better for him, Khrushchev also was able to convince Kennedy. Let's not forget that for parity, it's important that American rockets would get out
of Turkey. So, they actually both, in some ways, got what they wanted.
It seems that today, the rhetoric is being scaled, and once again in Putin's speech on the 21st, he said that Russia was withdrawing from -- not
withdrawing, sorry. It's important, Russia is suspending its participation for now until America behaves better, or has better relationship with
Russia. Better attitude towards Russia in the nuclear treaty.
So, it does seem that even if Russia always tells us, at least Putin tells us that he's not going to use nuclear weapons first, that whole nuclear
sable rattling is not off the table. And it really gives me pause, every time the nuclear topic, the nuclear conversation comes in. And I do hope
the Russians will reconsider no matter how the continuation of the war in Ukraine continues.
AMANPOUR: And the historian in my report at the museum here, basically said that the -- you know, the identity question is Russia's problem. That
there would be no problem right now if Russia didn't have that expansionist, imperialistic view of itself under Putin. Again, in context,
or rather, yes, in historical context, is there -- does that surprise you that he's even more expansionist and imperialist than many predecessors?
KHRUSHCHEVA: It does. It did, because it does seem -- I mean, once again, and Joe Biden talks about it all the time, this is 2023, this is 21st
century. If we are going to exert influence over somebody, it's always soft -- with soft power.
[13:30:00]
And Russians actually have developed some great soft power under Putin. And suddenly, it's the same tanks and the same hardwire -- hardware things and
-- in territory that becomes -- and people in fatigues is something that is the stamp of Russian identity.
I think it is a very valid point that what it is about Russian identity that it has to prove itself by expansion. And even more so fascinating is
that while Ukraine is strengthening its identity, Russia has been lost, Russia has lost about, I would say at least 1 percent. And it's not those
dead in the war, it's those who chose to flee Russia, to get out of Russia, that Russia that Putin says is going to be wonderful in historical terms.
That it has future in historical terms, which by the way, is an oxymoron.
So, Russian identity is now spread all over the world. What kind of Russian identity, what kind of militant Russian identity we have that is going to
have a better Russia in the future?
AMANPOUR: And as you know, this week, President Putin had speeches and concerts, and plenty of public appearances. And in one of them he talked
about the fact that this was a war for Russia's historic borders for the Russian people. And I wonder whether you think, you know, most of the
Russian people believe that.
But let me just first read you what Fiona Hill said in that regard, in that context, and of course, she's the Russia expert at the National Security
Council under President Trump. She's just written a paper which says, the way to look at this is to try to create the circumstances for a real
negotiation, not a capitulation. I don't think we're going to have an absolute victory over Russia. But, look, it only ends when Russia's only
and want to extend territory in an imperial fashion. Leadership matters a lot here.
So, she's talking about the end game. And you've heard Ukrainians, you just heard the deputy foreign minister, Crimean Tatar, who says, like the
president, that we are going to get everything back, including Crimea.
KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, I mean, who am I to argue with them. But I do want to point out that it's always when you start negotiations, people always put
the absolute on the table, and then conversation goes and you have -- you give in, you give up, you take in, and so on and so forth. So, in some
ways, it's understandable that they say they are going to get everything. Whether they do or not, it's a different question.
But that -- I have to say, I actually got -- I paused. I was listening to Putin very carefully, and when he said about -- he said something about
historical -- (speaking in a foreign language), the historical territories, the historical borders that Russia had. Like, what historical borders? In
which universe we are talking about this and why, when you actually have all of this other potential for soft power and that kind of expansion?
Expansion through capitalism, expansion through talent. But instead, they just gave away all this talent themselves.
They're not celebrating their normal Nobel prize winners, they closed memorials, the human rights organization that began Andandre Sacreb (ph),
they got Nobel prize but now, they kicked out and they get meetings in Madrid or elsewhere.
So, yes, I think the leadership matters and we can go back. And Fiona and I actually spoke about it quite a bit, we can go back to the Stalin times.
When Stalin died, Stalin has died with him. That Stalinism. And Stalinism continues, but that Stalinism, that absolutely unforgiving killing machine
died with him. And Khrushchev in -- after a few years, replaced him and then, we got at least some liberalization, some reform.
And that's what most of us really hope, whether we get it or not, that's probably the conversation in another year or so.
AMANPOUR: So, from Khrushchev then on to the other Soviet leaders, and eventually to Gorbachev and the collapse of the Soviet Union, you know, it
reminded me when I was in that museum and saw the flag and read that it would -- you know, the Ukrainian flag had first been hoisted publicly and
safely in 1990. And I remember that it was Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, of course, Yeltsin was president then, who called for this independence.
Russia was part of this move for independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia itself.
What -- remind us what Putin thought of that moment? I mean, he wasn't obviously president then, long -- you know, that was way before. But did he
always oppose that, do you think?
[13:35:00]
KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, he was a Yeltsin man. I mean, Yeltsin brought him in and it made him -- he made Putin his successor for which, by the way, even
those who like Yeltsin and think he was a reformer and was very important for that stage of Russian development, we kind of look back and thinking,
well, then we have other candidates. So, did you have other candidates there?
So, that gives us a pause. And let's remember that Yeltsin at the time was saying have as much independence that you possibly would like to have. So,
he was a very big on this formula for independence that everybody should become free to choose their way with life, to return to their own origin.
In fact, that was also Mikhail Gorbachev's point, which is more important.
So, Putin seemed to be on board for many, many years. And suddenly, in recent years, he started saying that the collapse of the Soviet Union began
the end of history. So, for him, that is the end of history because all the history that was before suddenly got squandered by that signature of an
agreement in Belarus that took place then.
So, Putin evolved in this matter. But, unfortunately, not towards the opening but, in fact, towards more closing and all this sort of historical
revanchism that now is very prominent in Russia.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you finally, some of the progress that Russia is making on the battlefield is from, not the military apparently, but from
these Wagner militants, the militias. And we've heard stories, people have been reporting and talking to them, many of them are criminals, as we know,
who've been recruited, who've been giving pardons for a lengthy jail cells, for some of the worst kind of crimes. Many of them are going back in body
bags, but those who don't, and who go back to claim their place in society, what kind of effect is that going to have on Russian society?
KHRUSHCHEVA: And that is -- I mean, all these things -- and maybe I already mentioned it, but I always -- when I look at this, when I look at
speeches and what's going on, this is -- I mean, George Orwell couldn't have made this up, he couldn't have imagined that. And we live in Georgia
Orwell. That's what I felt when I was there for six months. It was just George Orwell, 2022.
In fact, Prigozhin that you mentioned, the Wagner Group, today or yesterday he said when he was critical of the governors who, in fact, asked this
question, what it is -- you know, how are we going to celebrate those former criminals who, yes, they did go to the front, but did they really
stop becoming criminals? And so, Prigozhin insulted those governors and told them that in Stalin's times they would be killed for that.
So, can you imagine publicly, the country true that repented Stalinism, the country that said never again suddenly now Stalinism is an official, almost
official role model for those who fight in this war.
AMANPOUR: Wow. Nina Khrushcheva, that is a very sobering note on which to end on this one-year mark of this full-scale invasion of the country. Thank
you so much for joining us.
KHRUSHCHEVA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And next, we turn to the music of resistance, and that is jazz. The genre, of course, has historically been protest music and it's enjoying
a resurgence, thanks to artists like our next guest, the jazz singer, Samara Joy, who won Best New Artist and Jazz Vocal Album at this year's
Grammy's.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And Joy now joins Michel Martin to discuss the revival of jazz in modern pop music.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thank, Christiane. Samara Joy, thank you so much for joining us
SAMARA JOY, GRAMMY AWARD-WINNING JAZZ SINGER: Thank you so much for having me.
MARTIN: Well, those of us who watch the Grammys saw that magnificent moment when you were named best new artist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Samara Joy.
MARTIN: Just can you reminders like of like, do you remember, like, what was going through your mind when you heard your name called?
JOY: Oh, I'm pretty sure I kind of spaced out a little bit, because I couldn't -- I just -- I couldn't believe that it was happening to me, it
was already a surreal moment of like seeing Beyonce, and seeing, you know, Adele, and seeing Lizzo, and seeing all -- you know, Mary J. Blige and
Lizzo in their performances and stuff, that big 50 years of hip-hop tribute. So, me and my little brother were just having a great time.
[13:40:00]
And when the category came up, you know, me and all the nominees were sitting in the same area, and we were having fun, I was like geeking out
that I was meeting them in the first place. But when the Grammy goes to a moment came, I close my eyes and I held my little brother's hand. And then,
the camera caught me opening my eyes and my jaw-dropping just as that moment came, and I couldn't believe it was happening to me. That arena was
huge.
Like I'm pretty sure that's the most -- like that's a biggest mount of people I've had to talk to at one time. It was surreal. I don't know what
was going through my head. I was like, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. What am I going to say? What am I going to say? What am I going to say?
MARTIN: It's a rare moment, I mean, I can't imagine. I don't think most of us can't imagine having to, you know, address what -- you know, see that
many people at, you know, once, let alone be so coherent. So, kudos, you know, for that.
Is there a before and after? What's the next day feel like and the day after that?
JOY: I woke up the next day with my family. We stayed in an Airbnb in Bel- Air, which was really, really cool. But I woke up the next day and was just kind of like still thinking about, still in disbelief. Then I got back to
New York, and it was just like nothing had changed. I'm still running the subway, although, I probably shouldn't tell people that I do that.
They'll be looking for me on there. But, yes, I'm definitely -- I'm aware of all of the new opportunities and kind of eyes on me now as -- after the
fact. But I'm also grateful for my slice of normalcy, being home.
MARTIN: So, let's go back and talk about just how did you realize you could sing to begin with? I understand that your family is musical, like
most members of your family, your parents, grandparents, you know, all have some connection to music and musical performance, but how did you realize
that you could sing?
JOY: I realized I could sing when I was in middle school. I was in six grade and I was doing a musical called "Once on This Island." And I had the
lead role, you know, and my teacher at the time was like, hmm. It was like, taking like notes and like giving other people notes but kind of like leave
me alone. I was like, maybe I got something here, I don't know.
But -- and actually, my dad found a cassette tape of me singing Usher when I was like four years old. I guess I always -- I guess it was always known
but I didn't realize that until I, you know, started participating more in school.
MARTIN: Really? So, your parents didn't have you in like vocal training or chorus or choir as a little kid? It wasn't one of those stories? Wow.
That's amazing.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
MELVIN: And what about jazz? You know, it's a little bit of a cliche, but we don't really associate people of your age -- I don't mean to age you,
you know, but of sort of being attracted to that particular art form. Obviously, a lot of people are. Like, I'm thinking of Jon Baptiste, I'm
thinking about, of course, you know, all the Marcellos (ph) all had been playing it a very young, you know, age to performing. But do you remember
like how you were exposed to that particular art form and how you knew it was for you?
JOY: I didn't start listening to jazz seriously until college. I was exposed to it towards the end of high school. I was participating with the
big band at the school, at my high school, and the teacher, at the time, she allowed me to do a couple of songs with the band for shows, you know,
in school and cool concerts and things like that.
And those were the songs -- the songs that I learned with that band is what I used to audition for SUNY Purchase, the Jazz Studies Program, because I
just -- I wanted to sing but I knew that I couldn't go to any of the big schools for financial reasons. And so, SUNY Purchase was close by. I had
financial aid and, you know, all the instate tuition. So, I was like, I'm going to give it a try.
I don't really know anything about jazz. That was like when I heard Sarah Vaughan for the first time, I was like, I don't -- I'm new to it but I feel
like it's a great place to be in because I can be a sponge. I don't have any -- you know, any background that's going to like hinder my learning or
anything like that, it's just I'm open. It's like I'm taking all of the information in. So --
MARTIN: I just want to mention that unlike a number of people who are making a name for themselves in jazz, you didn't go to one of the, you
know, conservatories that you went, as you just said, to state university, you were at Purchase and then, you were in the Jazz Studies Program there.
[13:45:00]
You know, one of your college professors, John Status (ph), spoke in a previous interview, and he talked about an assignment that he gave you
where you had to add words to an instrumental solo of a jazz song and you chose a 1957 trumpet solo by Fats Navarro, to add in the song "nostalgia,"
which is it is on your album.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
MARTIN: Could you just talk a little bit about just, you know, your process? Like, how you picked that and why it suited your voice? Just tell
us a little bit about it.
JOY: It was really special for me hearing that song because I think for most instrumental -- or just most jazz albums that you here, they are like
multiple soloists and, you know, the songs tend to be a bit longer, which - - you know, which is amazing.
But with that song, it's like a melody. One trumpet solo, that was like the definitive -- you know, the definite voice -- improvisational voice on the
song and then, you know, the ending. So, it was a really -- it was a real highlight of, you know, Fats Navarro's mastery on the trumpet. And so, I
wanted to use lyrics, you know, to highlight it even more and bring out, I guess, the story that was already being told.
And as far as the process, you know, at first, I was like, I don't know if I can do this. You know, maybe it's going to be corny. But it is an
assignment. And so, that's all the motivation that I need. So, Monday, it's assigned. Thursday, it's due. So, I want to -- you know, that pushed me to
like, you know, try to think about -- think a little bit more intently about the background behind the lyrics that I would like, you know, talking
about maybe what would he have said if he had experienced life beyond 26 years old, because that's unfortunately. So --
MARTIN: The thing that people have noted about you, though you're only 23, is that you sound as if you've been singing for decades. I mean, do you
know what I mean? I know this isn't the first time you've heard this, I mean, the texture of your voice, the interpretation, your delivery, it just
brings up images of the jazz greats. I mean, you know Regina King. You know Regina King, the queen, she said, it seems like Sarah Vaughan and Ella
Fitzgerald were both living in your body. Where do you think that comes from?
JOY: Well, I think part of it definitely comes from my background in music to begin with, as far as like listening to whatever my parents, you know,
were listening to or would put on. They were both born in the '60s. And so, they got -- they gave me definitely a rich musical education of all of the
famous (INAUDIBLE) growing up as far as groups like The Chi-Lites or, you know, Heatwave and Isley Brothers and Motown, and the banjos (ph), that
kind of thing.
But I think it was a combination of immersing myself in that music and in gospel, as well as immersing myself in jazz. I want to know what it sounded
like and really have it in my head so that whatever came out whenever I sang was real.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
MARTIN: You know, it's funny, people forget that jazz -- you know, this is even before my time -- that jazz was pop music, you know, back in the day.
Jazz was dance music. People did go to like, you know, The Speakeasies' and dance halls and listen to jazz. It wasn't just something you sit, you know,
quietly and, you know, it was the pop music of the time, at least for the people that, you know, have listened to it.
And I just wonder as, you know, being so young, do you ever worry that the art form itself has not -- it does not hold the place in the culture that
it used to?
JOY: I'm not worried because I think that the nature of it -- the nature of the music, I mean, is to progress through the artist who contribute
their musicality. And so, I think that it stood the test of time so far and there are many artists kind of behind the scenes, although, I -- you know,
I know them, you know, because the jazz community is very -- even though it's widespread, you know, around the world, it's very small and everybody
knows everybody.
[13:50:00]
So, yes, I think it's bound to continue. I think, you know, being on platforms like Instagram and TikTok will definitely help to share and
connect my peer with it hopefully. But it's like, I'm not feeling any sort of pressure to like make sure it doesn't die. It's like, it was here long
before I was, and it's going to continue, hopefully, long after I'm gone.
MARTIN: Samara, you said that you don't feel pressure to save jazz, but even if you don't feel it, do you think it's still there?
JOY: Yes, I think it's there. It's there in the funding of, you know, jazz programs and state schools, you know, who don't get enough money for, you
know, instruments and, you know, scholarships to give musicians to go to school in the first place and opportunities as far as jazz clubs and places
to play.
But I'm feeling -- and this is not just because of me -- but a bit of a resurgence and more attention paid to jazz and to like live music in
general, you know? And I think that as long as there continues to be efforts to -- whether it's like host, you know, festivals or fundraising
opportunities, or things like that, where we can provide music and provide musicians with opportunities, and the love of music is still -- you know,
is there, you know, amongst musicians, then I think -- I mean, all of this is going to be fine. I don't know. It's like -- not cautiously optimistic,
but I'm optimistic regardless of the circumstances.
MARTIN: So, what's next for you? Is there some hill left to climb for you?
JOY: Always. I think that as long as my focus is not only on, you know, being on tour and sharing music and all of that good stuff but like
overcoming, you know, things that I want to get better at and continuing to grow as an artist and be inspired by the musicians and singers who, you
know, broke barriers and who, you know, realized the fullness of their potential and of their voices and their purposes through their gifts, then,
yes, there's always -- it's always like, OK, maybe doing a family album, you know, a family album or family tour or going into the studio and
arranging or writing my own songs or collaborating with my peers and, you know, bringing that project to the schools that went to in the Bronx and
like, you know, exposing -- because like -- I don't know.
I want to make sure that it's accessible to everybody. It's not just like people who can afford jazz and then, everybody else. I want to make sure
that everybody gets to enjoy this music that I love so much. So, there's always something next, there's always some hill to climb.
MARTIN: Samara, I can't -- I'm try to work up to how I can ask you, would you just give us a couple of bars of something? Please. Just a little bit,
please, please.
JOY: They say into your early life romance came. And in this heart of yours burned a flame, a flame that flickered one day and died away.
MARTIN: I'm done. I'm done now. I'm just -- I'm done. Samara McLendon, known as Samara Joy professionally, thank you so much for talking with us
today. And congratulations and we're wishing you every good thing and a successful and safe and meaningful tour.
JONES: Thank you so much for this time. It was a pleasure
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And what a voice. Well done, Michel, for getting her to sing.
And finally, tonight, many countries, the friends of Ukraine are awash with blue and yellow in a show of solidarity. From the Eiffel Tower in Paris, to
the Empire State Building in New York, major landmarks across the globe are lit up with the colors of the Ukrainian flag. And vast crowds are attending
candlelight vigils. In Estonia, NATO and E.U. leaders observe a minute of silence with the British prime minister in London, Rishi Sunak, doing the
same at Downing Street to mark this somber year.
[13:55:00]
That is it for now. Remember, you can always catch us online, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and, of course, on our podcast. Thank you for
watching and goodnight from Kyiv.
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