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Interview With American Enterprise Institute And Former U.S. State Department Official Kori Schake; Interview With "The Listener" Director Steve Buscemi; Interview With Psychologist Dr. Barbara Van Dahlen; Interview With "Who Cares: The Hidden Crisis Of Caregiving And How We Solve It" Author Emily Kenway; Interview With Chicago White Sox Baseball Player Liam Hendriks; Interview With Wife Of Baseball Player Liam Hendriks, Kristi Hendriks. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 05, 2023 - 13:00:00   ET




PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and a warm welcome to AMANPOUR. Here's what's coming up.


GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, U.S. JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I think the Ukrainians are very well prepared. As you know, very well, the United

States and other allied countries in Europe and, really, around the world had provided training and ammunition and advice.


NEWTON: America's top generals says, Ukraine is ready to roll as both sides contest whether a large-scale offensive has begun. Defense policy expert,

Kori Schake, helps a spear through the fog of war.

Then --


TESSA THOMPSON, ACTRESS, "THE LISTENER": The fact is I'm just hearing their stories, they're the ones living them. So, for me to cry, it feels like --

I don't know, a bit of a self-indulgence.


NEWTON: "The Listener", a new film directed by Steve Buscemi, looks at America's mental health crisis through the eyes and ears of one helpline


And "Who Cares" for the caregivers? Michel Martin speaks with author Emily Kenway on the hidden costs to those looking after our loved ones.

Plus --



NEWTON: A picture notches a win against cancer. I speak was Liam and Kristi Hendriks about his emotional journey back to the mound.

And welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Paula Newton in Atlanta, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Russia's defense ministry claims Ukraine's much anticipated counteroffensive has begun. In Moscow, meantime, the ministry of defense

says, without evidence I'll add, that it's warded a large-scale attack by Ukrainian forces attempting to breakthrough Russian defenses in southern


Kyiv acknowledges, in its words, switching to offensive actions in some directions, but claims Russia is spreading news of a counteroffensive to

distract from military challenges elsewhere. In fact, for now, Kyiv's message is, mum's the word. Here's a video showing Ukrainian soldiers

calling for operational silence around any new offensive.

So, what is actually happening on the battlefield of eastern Ukraine? Defense analyst Kori Schake has worked on security policy, both inside and

outside the U.S. government, including a stint (ph) as senior adviser to John McCain's presidential campaign. She joins me now from Washington,

where she is director of defense policy studies at the influential conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute.

It's good to have you on board for this, especially as you've just been on the ground in Ukraine. And let's start with that fog of war, which I'm

hoping you can clear for us. It's impossible, really, for any of us to really know exactly what's going on in the battlefield and really put any

kind of evidence to what Russians are claiming. They say that they thwarted a Ukrainian attack. On the other hand, we've heard now that the Ukrainians

are denying it.

Why has this war pivoted so much on propaganda and perception rather than what we see happening on the battlefield?

KORI SCHAKE, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, FORMER U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Because there's some advantage in creating a sense of momentum

around one side or the another. This is modern warfare. All of us are paying attention in real-time or watching videos in real-time, which means

there is advantage to whichever side proves good at it. And the Ukrainians have proven incredibly good at information operations and shaping how we

think about the war.

NEWTON: Yes, the little video of silence there was quite cheeky, I will add, and that's followed up by a high production value video they put out a

couple of weeks ago. In terms of consequential input from the United States here, the U.S. top General Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark

Milley talk to CNN exclusively today about what's at stake. Let's listen in.


GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, U.S. JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: So, I think it's too early to tell what outcomes are going to happen. I think the Ukrainians

are very well prepared. As you know, very well, the United States and other allied countries in Europe and, really, around the world had provided

training and then munition, and advice, and intelligence, et cetera to the Ukrainians. We're supporting them. They're in a war, that's an existential

threat for the very survival of Ukraine. And it has greater meaning to the rest of the world, for Europe, really, for the United States, but also for

the globe.


NEWTON: Now, I will add to what General Milley said there that U.S. Defense Secretary Austin said he hoped the counteroffensive would change. In his

words, the dynamic of this conflict.


What are both of these military leaders getting at? I mean, can we assume Ukraine has the weapons and the manpower to mount a successful


SCHAKE: Well, again, as General Milley said, it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell whether an operation can succeed. It's hard to know -- it's

entirely possible that the Russian military has become so brittle that when hit with a hammer of an offensive, they may crack. We just don't know until

it starts. But I agree that Ukraine is incredibly well-prepared for this. We have been helping other NATO countries, other western countries,

including Japan, have been providing really important assistance to Ukraine.

So, they will have every possible advantage and they will need it because looking out into the future, the Biden administration, the president

himself, has committed that we will give Ukraine all the support they need for as long as it takes for them to reclaim their internationally

recognized territory. Allowing Russia to freeze this conflict, while remaining on Ukrainian territory would be an incredible danger to the

people of Ukraine. And also, unjust in payment for the terrors that Russia has unleashed.

NEWTON: Yes. In fact, President Zelenskyy warned of the dangers of having a so-called frozen conflict. I want to pick up on something else you said

there though, the U.S. believes the Ukrainian counteroffensive will, in fact, help Kyiv take back, in their words, strategically significant

territory. Let's listen now to President Biden's National Security Adviser, Jake Sullivan, speaking to CNN.


JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: What we want to do is support Ukraine to make as much progress as possible on the battlefield so

that it is in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table. And we do believe that this counteroffensive will allow Ukraine to take

strategically significant territory back from Russia, areas occupied by Russia that are rightfully sovereign Ukrainian territory. Exactly how much,

in what places, that will be up to developments on the ground as the Ukrainians get this counteroffensive underway. But we believe that the

Ukrainians will meet with success in this counteroffensive.


NEWTON: You know, Kori, you've been listening to commanders, Ukrainian commanders, on the ground. Do they believe that -- they're kind of

handicapped now. That they'd be in a stronger position if they had those F- 16 fighter jets?

SCHAKE: Well, yes, of course, they would be in a stronger position if they had the ability to prevent Russia from posing an air threat attacks on

Ukrainian civilians throughout the country, for example. But I want to pick up on a point Jake Sullivan said there because he sounds very conditional.

You know, that the military operations are a preparation for negotiations.

And I think that's a mistake in frame of reference for this conflict. No Ukrainian government could consent to leave Ukrainians or Ukrainian

territory in Russian hands, given the war crimes that Russia has perpetrated there. And so, military force is going to solve this problem,

one way or another. Either in Ukraine's favor or Russia's favor, because neither side is going to negotiate what they cannot hold by force of arms.

NEWTON: Yes, you're saying that in terms of shaping the peace table that perhaps the U.S. and its allies have it all wrong. What's interesting here,

too, given you were on the ground, you had a very provocative, in fact, headline in the Atlantic. And your quote is basically, "Biden is more

fearful than the Ukrainians are." What did you mean by that?

SCHAKE: Well, it's not surprising President Biden is more fearful than the Ukrainians are, because they are already at war. They are already

experiencing bombardment and depredation. And the -- President Biden is right to be concerned about American involvement. But the policy choices

he's making about that concern are actually increasingly the incentives to Russia to threaten us with nuclear blackmail. It's increasing the value of

having nuclear weapons for threshold states.

Instead of expressing our concern about escalation, we should be confidently trying to shape how the Russians think about escalating. By

stressing the damage that will come to Russia if they make that kind of choice.

NEWTON: Yes, and you have a completely different take than others have, I will note. I do want to get to some of CNN's exclusive reporting. Multiple

sources familiar with U.S. intelligence tell us that Ukraine has, what we are calling, a network of saboteurs inside Russia who are carrying out

drone attacks. They are the same, you know, sabotage Asians believed to have attacked the Kremlin in that very news making way. Is there a

precedent for this kind of warfare? And how effective do you think this is?


SCHAKE: I think it's very effective for shattering the Russian conception that their territory is a sanctuary from which they can prosecute attacks

on Ukraine with no fear of reprisals. The U.S. and other NATO countries have handcuffed Ukraine to not formally retaliating in Russian territory.

But Russians fighting on Ukrainians side can do that. We used to call this political warfare or, you know, the work of intelligence agencies.

So, it's not at all surprising that Ukraine, who has been so creative, so innovative, so adaptive, to the constraints they are fighting this war

under, has found a way to encourage Russians to take Ukraine's side in the war and to perpetrate acts of sabotage, that's pretty common in warfare.

NEWTON: Yes, and given the realities of the ground, the fraternal relationship between Ukrainians and Russian, not surprising that they would

have people willing and able to carry this out. I really want to turn, as well though, to China in this entire equation. Ukrainian President

Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in an interview with "The Wall Street Journal", it was a blockbuster interview, by the way, that China could play an important

role in bringing peace.

And he really leaned into Chinese President Xi really having to step things up. I want you to listen now to what he says about China's involvement.



SULLIVAN: Well, we believe that China should play a constructive role in helping bringing about an end to the war in Ukraine. It really is up to

China to make its determination as to whether it's going to lean in here to support that principle of sovereignty and indicate to Russia that it will

stand behind an outcome in which you can gets its sovereignty back.


NEWTON: You know, I'm really curious to get your -- that was Jake Sullivan, of course, again with CNN. I'm really interested to get your take on this.

Do you think that is wishful really thinking? That China shows no signs of being able to be constructive in this conflict?

SCHAKE: I do. I think the administration is right to try and corral China into playing a constructive role. But it sounds like a lot like the way we

always try to corral China into playing a constructive role in restraining North Korea's nuclear proliferation. I mean, China doesn't want its close

ally, Russia, to fail at this, but they also don't want to look like they're not upholding the U.N. Charter. So, they talk nonsense about, you

know, the state sovereignty without criticizing Russia's attacks on the sovereignty of Ukraine.

So, I don't think it's likely the Chinese are going to be helpful. China's peace proposal would essentially see Ukraine ceding territory and

population to reward Russia's aggression. And I don't this Ukrainian government wants to do that. I don't think Ukrainians want to do that. And

I don't think the Ukrainian government could stay in power if it did.

NEWTON: Yes, that is a sobering assessment, truly, in what China could bring to bear in any kind of peace plan. Kore Schake for us, thanks so

much. Really appreciate your time.

SCHAKE: Thank you, Paula.

NEWTON: Next, to an emergency of a different kind, 90 percent, 90, of American adults believe the U.S. is facing a mental health crisis, I know

many of you can relate. And that's according to a survey by CNN and the Kaiser Family Foundation. So, what is it like for the first responders

trying to help? And it's the question at the heart of "The Listener". A new film following a helpline volunteer played, I will say, impeccably, by

Tessa Thompson as she answers calls through the night. Here's a clip.


REBECCA HALL, ACTRESS, "THE LISTENER": Does it make you cry?

TESSA THOMPSON, ACTRESS, "THE LISTENER": Sometimes. But the fact is, I'm just hearing their stories, they're the ones living them. So, for me to

cry, it feels like -- I don't know, a bit of a self-indulgence. It isn't about me, I'm just here to listen.


NEWTON: Riveting performance there. This is directed by award-winning actor and director Steve Buscemi, known for his memorable roles, of course, in

everything from Quentin Tarantino's "Reservoir Dogs" to, of course, "The Sopranos". Now, earlier, I spoke with Steve, alongside psychologist Dr.

Barbara Van Dahlen who was behind the first national public health campaign focused on suicide prevention.



NEWTON: And a warm welcome to the program for both of you.

Steve, I want to start with you. This film, a single character sketch, the supporting cast, audio only. And of course, there is a dog. But audio only.

That's played by Tessa Thompson. You know, she's not in the mold of a protagonist plot formula. You must have known the risk involved here. Why

did you decide to direct this film?

STEVE BUSCEMI, DIRECTOR, "THE LISTENER": Well, yes, I did understand the risk, but it was also just a wonderful challenge. And, you know, the

writing was just so powerful and moving. The script was written by Alessandro Camon, and it was just all there on the page.

And, yes, I would occasionally, you know, wake up in the middle of the night and go, how am I going to do this, you know? But then I would always

go back to the script and just, you know, the power of the characters. Yes, and you know -- I mean, understanding that Tessa's character is the only

one that you see on screen. You know, we had just a wonderful cast of actors who are the colors and you hear their voices and, you know, our goal

was to make it as cinematic as possible.

And we were able to do that because you work from home and -- so that she's not tethered to, you know, one spot. You know, in front of her computer

screen. She was able to move around her place and even go outside. So, we had a lot of, you know, tools that, you know, we could use to make it as

cinematic as possible.

NEWTON: Dr. Van Dahlen, as a mental health professional, you know, you worked tirelessly to help create the first national public health campaign

on suicide prevention. Specifically, though, what does "The Listener" convey to us about your real-world experience, right? The fact that these

helplines are a lifeline. Do they truly make a difference in mental health?

DR. BARBARA VAN DAHLEN, PSYCHOLOGIST: They absolutely make a difference. We know that healthy relationships are key for our well-being, our mental

health. We know that social connection, peer relations, these kinds of warmlines, hotlines, they absolutely make a difference. They give people an

opportunity to share, to connect with others who have resources, but mostly who want to listen, who are there helping them in a time of crisis.

What we also know is that the challenge that we have is that "The Listener" conveys to us, provides this window into what the reality is, which is

there are so many people suffering and struggling across the country. And that what we need to do is think about, OK. The lifelines are critical,

warmlines, hotlines, but beyond that, there's so much more that we need to do.

We're making progress. But we need to have these conversations because there's a lot that each of us can actually do to really address this

crisis, this growing crisis. So, yes, these lines are critical. Listening is critical. Mental health professionals, treatment, all those words. But

there's so much more that we could do. And that, to me, is the important message that's in "The Listener".

NEWTON: Yes, and it is difficult not to be overwhelmed by everything we hear and see in this film.

Steve, as a viewer, I have to say, I found myself dreading each and every call. All I was doing was watching this film. The despair on the other end

of the line, you know, so difficult to hear. And yet, the character, Beth, right, played by Tessa Thompson? She didn't want people to hang up. You

know, let's listen now to Beth played impeccably, I will say by Tessa Thompson, opening up to a caller voiced by Rebecca Hall. Let's listen to

that now.


HALL: Is it hard? I don't mean difficult, I mean -- well you know what I mean.

THOMPSON: Yes, sometimes.

HALL: What's the hardest thing about it?

THOMPSON: When the collar hangs up. Not always, but sometimes you just wanted to keep talking and you can't call them back. So, you just wonder,

did I upset them? Did I fail them?

HALL: But they were already hurting.


HALL: So, it was already hard.



NEWTON: She just wanted to keep talking. Steve, that is definitely a pivotal point in this field, "The Listener". Is it -- did you want to make

clear to the audience that that's mental health hangs in the balance there as well?


BUSCEMI: Well, yes. I just also want to just clarify that with Beth, you know, she works for warmline, meaning that people can call and just talk.

If she senses that they are in real trouble, then she will, you know, try to get them to call an emergency line or a crisis hotline or, you know, get

somebody to that person.

This call that she gets, Rebecca Hall, she senses that Rebecca's character is she's in trouble. She's talking about ending her life, but more in a

theoretical way. And, you know, just because she does not want to, you know, sometimes, you don't want to call a crisis hotline. So, Beth is a

volunteer and she's been through it herself. And in this particular phone call, she is -- she decides to, sort of, break protocol and give

information about herself that she normally wouldn't do on a call. But for Beth, this was important that she reach her and make that connection and

keep her on the line to keep talking.

And by the end of that call, she does make that connection. And I think provides a lot of relief to Rebecca's character. And, you know, and it just

opens up this dialogue. And I think, a lot of times, people just want to be heard. They really just want somebody to listen and talk with them, and

sometimes that's all they need, you know, to get them through the night. And Beth works at night because this is when most of the dire phone calls

come in. And she --

NEWTON: Yes, and that's made clear, it's when the loneliness is most profound.

Dr. Van Dahlen what's your reaction to the vulnerability that we see there in Beth? And a specific question for me is, it is difficult, obviously, for

these volunteers to deal with these calls, no matter how well trained they are. I know during the pandemic, everyone was at home, whether it was a

volunteer or not. But do you think it's better that we have a more traditional set up in some of these places where the people having to deal

with these phone calls are not alone themselves. Can get support and can get training, and perhaps, in that way, give, you know, give some better

help along the way, along the line?

DR. VAN DAHLEN: Well, I do think it's a really interesting part of this story, Beth. And she lets us know at the beginning that she needs to take a

break. And so, you're right. Regardless of what the setting, whether it's someone in their home or because you can also, as you can well imagine,

taking on these issues, having these conversations, you can be in a room full of other operators and be alone with it.

So, what's key is how those organizations and many of them do amazing work, providing support, recognizing the need to support the workers, the

volunteers. You know, and we hear, in these stories, as she is taking these calls, you know, that some of the material that's coming in is graphic,

it's painful, it's troubling. We know the impact that has on all of us.

In fact, that in and of itself can cause trauma, you know, additional trauma from what she has already clearly experience in her life. So, it's

important to have the whole spectrum of offerings, if you will, so that people find, on both sides of this equation, what works best for them when

they are in need of help, calling a warmline, getting in to see a therapist, getting into a peer support group. And also, what's most helpful

to all of these helping professionals to make sure that they get the support that they need to keep doing what literally is lifesaving work.

NEWTON: And I'm glad you make a fine point to that in the sense that in many cases, as you said, it is lifesaving work.

I mean, Steve, in rendering this film, you clearly hope to installations a sense of understanding in all of us and a sense of hope. Can you bring us

to those final scenes in "The Listener" and what you were trying to convey there because there seemed to be a sense of relief there.

BUSCEMI: Well, in the phone call that I just mention that we talked about with Rebecca Hall, but there's another phone call that comes in the middle

of the film, voiced by Alia Shawkat. And she is struggling with being bipolar. She is, you know, manic in the middle of the night, and she calls.

And Beth is somehow able to tap into her creativity, Tessa's character Beth. And she consults the phone, Alia's character, but then calls back

later, and this sometimes happens.

And that's, you know, you can do this with a warmline. You can -- if you talk with a volunteer that you like, you can request them by name later.


And she calls back and her -- Tessa's character, it is so moving that Alia's character calls back because she was inspired by something that

Texas character said to her. And it opened up this creative outlet within her.

So, I think that phone call, along with Rebecca's phone call, I think she feels a real sense of accomplishment that she really -- she was really

helping, you know. And that's not true with every phone call. You know, sometimes she gets frustrated because she can't keep the person on the

line, or she feels she didn't get enough, you know, or that she didn't -- you know, she wasn't on her A game, you know. But there are those phone

calls where she felt -- feels like I didn't make a connection and what I did truly mattered.

NEWTON: Yes, and it certainly shows us how important even one connection at the right time during a mental health crisis can really make a difference.

We'll have to leave it there, Steve Buscemi, and Dr. Van Dahlen, thank you so much for what is certainly a mental health crisis that infects as all.

Appreciate you both.

DR. VAN DAHLEN: Thank you.

BUSCEMI: Thank you. I really appreciate it.


NEWTON: And so, "The Listener" is screening at the Tribeca Film Festival on Sunday. And now, for international resources, like those we were just

discussing, you can visit the International Association for Suicide Prevention. And in the United States, you can call 9-8-8, that's 9-8-8 to

reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

Now, looking after loved ones in need may seem like a simple decision, but caregiving, as so many of you know is no small task. And those that do it,

yes, are usually women and are often forced to make major life changes with very little support. Now, in her new book, "Who Cares: The Hidden Crisis of

Caregiving and How We Solve It", author Emily Kenway shares her experiences, the sole caretaker for her mother who was diagnosed with

cancer. And she joins Michel Martin to discuss why governments need to better value this kind of vital work.


MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Emily Kenway, thank you so much for joining us.


MARTIN: You know, I have to say that a number of colleagues of mine read your book. And we all had the same reaction which was we all found

ourselves having to take breaks because it was just too real. If it's not too painful, even now, what -- tell us your personal story, if you don't

mind, as briefly as you can.

KENWAY: Yes. So, my mom, she got cancer, and she had that, kind of, classic experience of feeling more and more tired, you know. At that time, she was

a, kind of, powerful, busy, independent woman, around 60. And unfortunately, yes, she had leukemia and lymphoma.

And so, she was extremely unwell for three or four years. And in amongst all of this, you know, she had many types of chemotherapy. She had a stem

cell transplant, like, all sorts of things happened. And because she was single, and because my sister has little children, and I don't have

children yet, I was her primary caregiver. And you know, it just turned my life upside down.

I was living just a classic young adult's life, you know, in London, out and about, building a career in something I felt really passionate about.

And suddenly, it was effectively like I became a parent overnight, but apparent in a very sad situation. And it completely changed how I thought

about the world, and also made realized, this is happening everywhere and no one is talking about it.

MARTIN: I think there are those who would say, why don't you just pay somebody to take care of your mom in those years when she was really


KENWAY: Yes, so it's actually a very common assumption that you can address the care of your loved ones by paying someone, by outsourcing it, yes. And

one of the things I'm very clear about in the book is why this is a complete misunderstanding of care.

So, my mom's illness is a classic example where I say she had cancer and it sounds like one event. And it changed every week, every month, you know.

There are infections, there are rejections of treatment, you know, there's depression, there's sudden bodily bits not functioning, or something

changes. Also, lots of people who need care prefer to have family members do it, right, or they might say they'd like paid care workers. But they

pretend that they don't need care for a really long stretch of time. They don't want to admit to their vulnerability, which means you do actually

have to do it while you wait for them to come to terms with their own vulnerability.


Lots of people who need care can't speak for themselves, either literally can't speak or have cognitive impairment, right? Strokes and dementia and

so on. So, you do actually need to do quite a lot of work. Navigating systems for them, checking that things have been done for them, and so on.

And the final reason is love, right? Like, yes, I loved my mom, profoundly. And so, I would have wanted to be with her more supported than I was, but I

absolutely wouldn't have foregone it.

MARTIN: And one of the things that I think you capture so well in your book is how -- and in other writings, is how your world gets so small. You know,

it's from the bedroom to the bathroom.


MARTIN: It's from the house to the doctor, or to the hospital. I just wonder how you realized that? Was it when it was over or while it was going


KENWAY: It was definitely while it was going on because, you know, I, sort of, very aware that friends were living normal lives and I wasn't. And

there were, you know, a couple of times I'd arranged to go on holidays with friends, you know, climbing in Scottish mountains and things like that and

then wasn't able to go because my mom had a turn for the worse, or I couldn't get someone to cover me to look after her.

And so, it was very apparent in a very practical, very physical way, that my -- the dimensions of my life had shrunk and changed. And I think this is

why caregivers end up so isolated, right, because the shape of our lives is just so different to what is considered the norm. We almost don't even know

anymore how to talk to people about what our daily life looks like.

MARTIN: As we mentioned, the title of your book is "Who Cares". Who are we speaking about here? When you talk about caregiving, who were you talking

about and what are you talking about? And how many people are we talking about?

KENWAY: The caregiving I'm talking about is people who are caring for loved ones who are long-term unwell, disabled, or frail and elderly, basically.

And actually, historically, this has been a kind of smaller proportion of caregiving than parenting which might be part of the reason why we're much

more used to hearing about parenting.

Nowadays, with medicine the way it is, with longevity increasing, aging populations. It's becoming much more prevalent and indeed people are caring

for sick and elderly loved ones for longer than they cared for their children now. You know, people are living with advanced dementia for 20

years or so now. So, the scales are kind of swinging in the other direction and we haven't caught up with it. We're talking about millions of people in

each country. 56 million, roughly, in the USA, about 6 million in my U.K.

And also, the answer to your question, "Who Cares", you know, who are we talking about is women, right? A friend joked I should subtitle the book,

"Women", because it is still women all around the world who were doing the majority of this kind of care, as well as of course, often, parenting. And

that's also true in countries like Sweden where they have very high rates of gender equality by other measures. So, like, in the boardroom, for

example. It's still women who are doing most of this kind of care.

So, it's definitely an issue that is both of, kind of, feminism and of politics more broadly. And it's very related to the childcare issues that

we have, you know. That we have government policies in the U.K. as much as in many other countries, which seemed to pretend that childcare doesn't

need to happen. You know, this idea that we need an income, and we have people we need to look after. We have not managed to, you know, sort that

equation out at all even though it's fundamental to the smooth running of our societies.

MARTIN: Why do you think it is that we have not figured this out, especially countries that are wealthy, in, sort of, global terms? What's

your theory about why it is that it's so much -- so little a part of our understanding of our society?

KENWAY: There are a few reasons why we're completely failing on it. And one of them is the type of capitalism that we have today. So, economists would

say that capitalism, as we've currently constituted it, works on the basis of outsourcing the things that are needed to keep reproducing and taking

care of life, right? To not cost in those things, and we can see that very, very clearly in our working policies, you know.

If we don't have paid leave to take care of children or paid caregivers leave for sick loved ones, that's brilliant for business ostensibly, right?

Because they're not having to price in the costs of that. So, profit is able to be made without having to pay heed to that.


Now, actually, thankfully, there are voices in business spaces that are kind of seeing the light. Perhaps because they're having experiences in

their own worlds that are telling them this is untenable. Perhaps because there are women leaders more and more. But also, because there is now

analysis that says, actually it's good business sense to have proper care policies, you know, from a turnover and productivity perspective and so on.

So, there are kind of glimmers of hope there. As you say, there's also the problem that we have a very gendered perspective on this. Of who ought to

be providing care in society. Now, it's not for me to say what is the right thing for someone to do with their life or not, and I certainly would never

have wanted not to care for my mom. I wish she hadn't been sick, obviously, but it was not something that I would ever have, sort of, given someone

else to do.

However, we do need to understand that people providing care in the home, that's not without a cost, right? There's a cost there and it's a cost

being borne silently by women around the world. You know, it strips us of income, it strips all the women of pension savings. So, we are going to

have a lot of very elderly women who are absolutely impoverish just because they cared for someone they love.

MARTIN: I am -- I was struck by the reporting you did all over around the world with people who are in this circumstance all over the world. And I

just wondered if you would share just a couple of stories that really struck you.

KENWAY: Yes, thank you. It was a very important thing. I felt to do a global portrayal of it. And so, one of the people I encountered was a young

woman called Ayisha (ph). We're about the same age, which was quite beautiful. She is in Kathmandu in Nepal, and I, at that time was all the

way in London.

So, you know, completely different worlds, different cultures, thousands of miles apart. Ayisha (ph) had helped her mom care for her dad who had

cancer, and then her mom had cancer shortly after that, and she had been her mom's primary caregiver. So, we sort of had similar paths thousands of

miles apart. Ayisha (ph) had originally been midway through an environmental economics degree and had left that and had never been able to

go back because of these caring responsibilities.

So, you know, like many caregivers, she lost a dream that she had. And that is, you know, one of the major effects of our failure to really support

caregivers. She also had had major, kind of, physical repercussions, from extreme stress she was under. So, she had a brain aneurysm a year after

caring for her mom. And she was in a country where there's even less, kind of, government provided services than the U.K. or the U.S., you know. So,

it really had been completely engulfing for her.

And she was on her way out of that when we met. And, you know, it's my great hope that many of the people I spoke to around the world have, kind

of, different futures coming down the line.

MARTIN: What would it look like if understanding that care is going to be part of your life at some point, were normal and were understood. What

would that look like?

KENWAY: Yes. Well -- so, I think there's layers to this. And on -- so, on the most, kind of, day-to-day personal level, it would look like having

really strong bonds with people around you who may or may not be your biological family, right? As we know, we're getting smaller families,

people are living further apart. So, we need to start cultivating the art of creating bonds with people who are around us and who can step in and

support us. But of course, in to amount of time and attention, or energy, right? And we don't have that if we're all working all the time.

And so, one of the really key parts of this is to rebalance work and care, right, to dethrone work from its primacy in our lives. And to say, you are

human. You love people and those people have breakable bodies. This means you cannot work all the hours and days of your life, because you're going

to need to do things for those people, right? Whether they're babies or just a kid with the flu for the week or a grumpy teenager, or a parent with

dementia, you know. It's all through our lives.

So, we have to rebalance this. I read a report from the U.N. that talked about how many workdays I lost to care worldwide each year. Well, how many

care days are lost to work, right? But coming back to your point, there are trials of four-day working weeks that involve the same amount of pay as

people had for five days, so no loss in pay. And they are taking place around the world. And they are working really well because people work

better when they work for fewer hours. And there are lots of businesses now deliberately putting that in place as a policy.


We also need to have caregivers' income, right? It's whole crazy that if your loved one needs care, the only way you can get paid properly to look

after them is if you went and enrolled in a care agency and became, you know, a home health aide, and then they happened to contract to you. That

makes no sense. We have to have a government supported program of income for people who need to provide care.

Now, we are seeing in the U.S. more and more states introducing paid leave from jobs for caregivers, which is really exciting. There's a man in the

book called Eric who cared for his husband in Minnesota, who passed away of cancer. And Eric e-mailed me just a three days ago saying, Emily, we've won

paid caregivers leave here in Minnesota, and I had to tell you. You know, it happening. It's happening there. It's happening in lots of states. And

so, I think these things are possible, but they will not be possible unless we all shout for them, basically.

And the people who need to shout the most are the tiredest, right, they are the caregivers. So, we kind of need everyone else to be doing it as well so

that it's not all on those who are already being broken by the system that we have today.

MARTIN: You know, I don't want to go into all of the details but, you know, watching someone you love wither away is so hard. And, you know, you were

there 24 hours a day, seven days a week for years. And I just wondered why is it that you didn't just want to walk away from it? What made you want to

write this book and, basically, go back into this life with other people who are living it right now?

KENWAY: You know, I think that, for me it felt like a moral obligation. I am much younger than the norm for caregivers. And so, I felt like can I use

some of my, kind of, life force, you know. I don't have children yet. I have this, kind of, space and energy where I could do this thing. And, you

know, could I help make a difference?

I couldn't switch off the knowledge that in every street, in every neighborhood, in every workplace and community there's someone right now

going through what I was going through, you know. And that felt, to me, like I have to write about this. I have to put this in people's faces

because that pain is so real to me. It would have felt like an immoral act not to do so.

MARTIN: What was the hardest part of it?

KENWAY: The hardest part of my experience was watching how hard it was for my mom, if that makes sense. So, you know, watching her be so desperately

unhappy to be dying. You know, she got sick. She worked very long hours her whole life, you know. Sometimes six days a week, work, work, work, work,

work. She got sick just as she was at retirement age.

And the only time when she was well enough during her illness to potentially go out and about was a couple of months which overlapped with

the same time as the first U.K. lockdown, so nothing was open. And so, I witnessed a kind of depth of suffering that taught me a lot, I would say,

about how I intend to live my life. And how I hope and able to look back on my life if and when I come to a place where I am having to witness my own

incapacitation in that way.

MARTIN: So, before we let you go, there is one thing that I think you say over and over again in the book which is that, if you think this doesn't

apply to you, you're wrong. Everyone is going to live this story at some point, you know. Everyone. And I wonder who do you have in mind here when

you say that?

KENWAY: Yes, a friend of mine described the book in an early stage as a confrontation, and it is. Because I encountered, and still every day

encounter people who think that this is an issue that is about other people, you know. That this is something about geriatrics or, you know,

just people who aren't them. And I just want to shake them and say, for their own good, you know, this is coming to you.

If you think you're free today, if you think you're independent in some kind of grand way, you're not. If you love anyone and they are in a human

body, you should expect to provide care. And if you don't pay attention now to what care looks like, you're going to have the most horrific struggle

when it does come. So, please listen to us and that's what I'm trying to do in the book. I'm saying, listen to us. Please make the change that we need.


MARTIN: Emily Kenway, thank you so much for talking with us.

KENWAY: Thank you.


NEWTON: And finally, while caring for a loved one, as we just heard, and crisis is always stressful. We, right now, are going to celebrate a much

happier outcome. Chicago White Sox Pitcher Liam Hendriks notched a big win, Sunday. But you know, this was no ordinary win. It was, in fact, a life

victory for someone who only, six months ago, think about that, was diagnosed with cancer. The crowd went wild as they should, when Hendriks

first came back to the mound last week, two months after his final treatment for stage four non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

The 34-year-old Australian posted a video ringing the victory bell, you see it there.



NEWTON: That was in April, just April, after a battle which he says changed his life forever. We can only imagine, Liam Hendriks, and his wife Kristi

join me now from New York. So good to have you.

Liam, I have to tell you, I watched the highlights of the win on Sunday, the look on your face, unmistakable. You know, you looked every inch, the

determined competitor that you are. A big congrats to you. It gave me chills. Tell us, what were you feeling, you know, less than six months

after being diagnosed with cancer?

LIAM HENDRIKS, CHICAGO WHITE SOX BASEBALL PLAYER: Yes, it was a quick little turn around. But, you know, for me, I got back into my little angry

face. I think it's -- it works better for me. I got -- when I came back on -- was it Tuesday? Monday?


L. HENDRIKS: Monday. And there were a lot of emotions. It was really hard to get myself back into my, kind of, frame of mind on the mound. But Sunday

was great. I was back in my normal, kind of, element in the ninth inning, in a tied game, and I was able to let those emotions out because I just,

for whatever reason, I pitched better angry.

NEWTON: But -- and that's all -- you want to pitch better, right? You want to be done with cancer, and pitch better. And yet, this was a win for the

history books. It was like a fairytale. I mean, you notched that win on National Cancer Survivors Day. You had everything to play for, and now

you've won. Has that accomplishment sunk in?

L. HENDRIKS: Not really. I don't think so. I bet -- at the end of the day, my big thing now is I'm just trying to give everybody an opportunity for

hope. Like, it's -- there's a lot of people going through this that may not have the support system that I have. There's a lot of people going through

this that may not have, kind of, the -- kind of, home system and everything in this. But as -- if I can give them any little semblance of hope, that's

all I can do. And anything that I look, it kept me in the pants a little bit getting diagnosed.

But at the end of the day, the only thing we can do is try and spin and make a positive out of this, and that's through raising awareness and

funding and making sure that people going through this have someone to hopefully, potentially look towards and see that this is doable.

NEWTON: Yes. And you and Kristi continued your efforts to fundraise.

Kristi, I want to turn to you. You know, you've been at Liam's side through all of this. You know, more specifically, at his bedside, right? Through

diagnosis, treatment, recovery. Can you explain what the last few months have been like for both of you?

K. HENDRIKS: Well, I always say that chemotherapy is like 10 years, but also 10 minutes. While you're going through it, it seems so long. But then

on the other side of it, it's just this elation that you have that nobody can understand. And I'm so proud of him. It was such an incredible moment

when we got the PET scan results back and he just, you know, was clear.

We ended up still doing another round of chemotherapy as an insurance policy, but we couldn't be happier. We're so grateful to be back. And I

cannot thank the doctors and team at Mayo Clinic enough for prolonging my husband's life.

NEWTON: Yes, they really do seem like miracle workers there. Kristi, I want to ask you about his determination to return to baseball. I'm sure that

unlike Liam, and maybe I'm wrong, but I put myself in your shoes, and I think, you know what? I don't care about baseball, Liam, right. This needs

to be a lifesaving treatment and that's what we should concentrate on.

Did you have any reservations about all of the adversity he was taking on and trying to get to that, you know, high level of play in such an -- a

compressed timeline?

K. HENDRIKS: I think, for me, baseball became Liam's saving grace. I think it gave him something to look forward to during treatment and after

treatment. You know, it was great for me too because there were extra eyes on him. There was this incredible training staff that was looking after

him, and I could trust that he was in his happy place.

And for me I feel like going through anything, any type of trial, you know, you want to be a great mindset. And I think mindset truly changes

everything. So, being able to be out there, having a goal in mind, just really, kind of, turned the page for him.

NEWTON: Yes, and it's insightful that you can really read that, given that, I'm sure you were first and foremost concerned just what his life would

look like in the coming months.


Liam, your charitable work, your devotion to community endeavors over the years, it is part of your DNA. And yet now, it's at a whole other level,

right? You saw that support coming back to you, what does that feel like, and what do you want cancer patients and survivors to take from your

experience? Because, you know, it's going to be difficult. It's not like they can relate to, as you said, having that incredible support system

behind them, and yet you want them to take something from this. What is it?

L. HENDRIKS: The biggest thing is hope. The biggest thing is I want them to take away hope. It's the fact that this does affect everyone. Like everyone

-- was one in two people that will experience something to do with cancer in their lives? That is something that is kind of keeping you on moving

forward. But the big thing I want them to hope -- focus on is hope, and that's something that -- it's easy to get to. As long as you can look at

the positive spins on everything, like, yes, we get diagnosed. But the big thing was, what can we do to make this a positive? How can we turn the

silver lining out of this?

And the one thing we want to do is raise awareness and funding. And be as - - for me, I don't want to ever consider myself as a symbol or anything like that, but I want to just -- people to look at the story and be like, OK.

Well, he's gone through this. He's done it this way. And I know I can get through this the same way.

NEWTON: And Kristi and Liam, if you can take us down to the more difficult points, because, you know, at this very hour there will be people

struggling with a new cancer diagnosis. What do you tell people about those dark times? I mean, we see your triumph right now and everything that's

gone on, but you couldn't have been all that confident at times.

K. HENDRIKS: I think for me, watching him go through it was very hard, as a control freak that I am. I just really wanted to take that pain from him.

Seeing him sick. But he is such a positive person, and he actually helped me in my caretaker's role become positive as well. And I think knowing that

there is always light after dark is such an incredible hope to live by.

NEWTON: Liam, what would you say? Did you have any dark moments? I mean, when people see your extraordinary progression through baseball, even, they

kind of assume that you're pretty much are a super athlete and a superman. Is that true? I mean, is that kind of how you had to persevere?

L. HENDRIKS: Perseverance is one of my gifts, I think. Also, just the mentality behind pushing through no matter what. Like, I don't think I

would be in the position I am on the baseball field without having a mentality of being able to push through the days where I'm not feeling

great. The days where I'm a little sore. The days where I don't think I can throw at all.

It's the mentality of, like, no, this is my job. This is what I came to do. But I think I take that, kind of, same approach with the cancer diagnosis

of, look, there's nothing I can do to change this right now. All I can do is get on with it and put in the best -- like, the most positive mindset I

can have so that way we can -- I can give myself the best hope, because at the end of the day, everyone talking to anyone who ever gone through this.

And hope is such a big thing. It's those little text messages from people completely out of the blue, I think that one is one thing I stressed to --

absolutely anybody who knows someone going through something. Whether it be cancer, whether it be depression, or anxiety, or anything that is, kind of,

any sort of affliction is reach out.

Don't be afraid. If you're thinking about it, just shoot them a text. Be like, hey. How you doing? Because those little messages right there, they

can completely change your entire day, which could be the -- really, one of the most pivotal moments of your entire diagnosis or anything that you're

going through.

NEWTON: Yes, and it's an important thing to remember as we hear "Close Out Cancer" now. I only have time for a quick question, Liam, but we're going

to bring it back to baseball. I understand you are a chirper. I think you're guilty as charged. I'm going to ask you all about the rule changes

in the game. We've got this new pitch clock, apparently the reviews have been good, it amps up the pressure. What do you think, because I know

you're going to give it to me straight, what is your opinion on the rule changes?

L. HENDRIKS: Well, I'm a guy who usually comes out in the fourth inning. So, I actually have to really rapidly get through all my pregame stuff now,

because the games are going a little quicker. But I never worked too slowly. So, I didn't mind it too much. I -- there are sometimes where I

felt like there's a couple little tweaks that I feel like we could make where, like, the other day I had to tie my shoe. And the catcher had to

come out to give me time because there was nobody on. And there was that going on.

So, little things like that. But, you know, the -- I think it's great for the game because it shortens it up. And I get more of a chance to knock it

home at 12:00 at night and have to be ready for a day game the next day. But I think they're trying, and that's the big thing, it's we're trying to

make it to more of an entertainment value, and get more family and young kids involved in the game because that's what's going to spoon it forward.

NEWTON: Yes, I mean, it's been interesting just to see how that all evolved. And I will say again, relief pitcher, right? It is a big relief.

I'm sure they had a big relief on Sunday night to see you on the mound and see you, literally, bring it home, live it all in the field. We will

continue to watch your career. And Kristi and Liam, we will continue to see your accomplishments on what is an incredibly worthy endeavor, given so

many of us are touched by cancer. I thank you both for your time. Really appreciate it.

L. HENDRIKS: Thank you for having us.

K. HENDRIKS: Thank you so much.

L. HENDRIKS: We appreciate it.


NEWTON: And that is it for now. Now, if you ever missed a show, remember you can always catch us online at Facebook, Twitter and Instagram or you

can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. I want to thank you for watching. I'm Paula Newton in for Christiane Amanpour.

Goodbye from Atlanta.