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Interview With Former Rep. William Hurd (R-TX); Interview With Les Centres GHESKIO Director And Founder Dr. Jean Pape; Interview With Musician Rufus Wainwright. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 07, 2023 - 13:00:00   ET



BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to AMANPOUR. Here's what's coming up.


MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can turn this country around. But different times call for different



GOLODRYGA: Out to beat his old boss. Former Vice President Mike Pence makes it official with the splashy vision of America under his leadership. I ask

former GOP representative, Will Hurd, if anyone has a shot at beating Donald Trump to the Republican nomination.

Also, ahead --


DAN RAPAPORT, GOLF JOURNALIST, BARSTOOL SPORTS: Just how fast and how stark the 180 happened is definitely shocking. And the fact that nobody knew this

was coming.


GOLODRYGA: -- the PGA Tour is accused of sacrificing morals for money, as it merges with Saudi-backed LIV Golf.

Then --


DR. JEAN PAPE, DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, LES CENTRES GHESKIO: We are not at war with any country. We are at war with ourselves.


GOLODRYGA: Situation critical. The top doctor at Haiti's largest hospital system tells Michel Martin why the country is on the brink of civil war and

how foreign governments should help.

And --




GOLODRYGA: -- the stars come out for Rufus Wainwright's new album. I ask the renowned singer, songwriter and composer about his modern take on some

folk classics.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Former Vice President Mike Pence has officially launched his presidential campaign, pitching him against his former boss, Donald Trump.


MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Every time our nation has produced leadership that has called upon its

country to do hard things, the American people have always risen to the challenge, and we will again. We just need government as good as our people

to do it.

I believe in the American people. And I have faith. God is not done with America yet. And together, we could bring this country back, and the best

days for the greatest nation of earth are yet to come.


GOLODRYGA: Pence joins a growing field of contenders now vying for the Republican nomination, and hoping to lead their party to victory in the

2024 election. Trump, however, remains the candidates to beat. Republican voters apparently willing to look past his false claims about the last

election being stolen, and the flurry of criminal investigations he and businesses are embroiled in currently.

There is some hope for his opponents, however. A CNN poll last month showed even though Trump leads the primary field, more than eight in 10 say they

were open to considering Ex-Vice President Pence and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

Meantime, Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie kicked off his second run at the White House yesterday with a blistering attack on Donald Trump.


FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lonely, self-consumed, self-serving, mirror hog is not a leader. So, now,

we have pretenders all around us who wants to tell you, pick me because I'm kind of like what you picked before, but not quite as crazy.


GOLODRYGA: The former prosecutor not mincing words there. Well, former Republican congressman and one-time CIA agent, Will Hurd, has been an

outspoken critic of Former President Trump and he's called the idea of a Biden Trump repeat in 2024 the "rematch from hell." And he joins us now

from san Antonio, Texas. Great to see you.

So, first, let's start off with where you currently stand and what you're thinking. We've had a long list of people throw their names into the ring

here. You were mulling it at one point. Any news you want to make with us today?

FMR. REP. WILL HURD (R-TX): No news to make today, but if I have the opportunity and a pathway to help my country again, then I will evaluate

that. And I've got to make a final decision sometime soon.

GOLODRYGA: So, what would that pathway look like and what are some of the things you are mulling over right now?

HURD: Look, here's the real question that Republican voters are going to have to ask, do we want four more years of Joe Biden? Because if we elect -

- excuse, me if we elect Donald Trump as the Republican nominee, then we are willingly letting Joe Biden win again. And that's a simple fact.


We need to be thinking who can the Republican Party elect that can win in November? If we want to see inflation reduced, if we want to deal with our

national debt, if we want to address the crisis at the border, if we want to win the new cold war with the Chinese government, then we have to win in

November, and we need a candidate that can do that.

We know that Donald Trump is a proven loser. And the election is not today, the election is months away, and even those Republican primary voters who

like Donald Trump know his record of losing. We know how we lost the House in 2018. We know how we lost the White House and the Senate in 2020, and

failed to prevent a red wave in 2022, which should have happened.

And the reality is, independents and conservative Democrats want something different. Now, that's why I called this rematch between Joe Biden and

Donald Trump, the rematch -- because nobody wants that. And that's opportunity, but we have to nominate someone who can win in November.

GOLODRYGA: So currently, there are nine candidates who think that they can beat Donald Trump. And you just listed a lot of examples there as two

things that have been learned by the party, by Americans, by voters over the past two years, and what they've learned from a Trump presidency. That

having been said, there are quite a few similarities to what we've seen in elections of the past, including the fact that we have a number of

candidates once again vying for the nomination. That is exactly what we saw in 2015 and 2016.

So, what leads you to believe that these candidates have learned their lesson?

HURD: I don't know if all the candidates have learned their lesson, but at least there's a few that are trying to learn that lesson. And the thing is

that you can't say anything. You know, the reason so many people lost in 2016 if they were afraid to take on Donald Trump, and that has to change in

this upcoming election cycle.

And so, those that are trying to be a clone of Donald Trump are not going to be successful, because again, people recognize and the voters ultimately

recognize and are concerned with the baggage that Donald Trump has, and they recognize that if we want to solve some of these big problems, we need

something different.

And here is -- you know, we need people that are actually looking forward, not looking backwards, right? When you look at the complicated times we

live in, when you look at the challenges that we have in foreign policy, when you look at the Chinese government doing things like working with the

Saudis and the Iranians to cause (INAUDIBLE), all of that impacts us here in the United States.

Making sure technology -- we can take advantage of technology before it takes advantage of us, making sure our kids are ready, these are the

questions and the concerns that voters really care about. And when you have someone that articulates a plan on how to address that future, then I think

that's the kind of person that's going to be able to build momentum on going into the first primaries.

GOLODRYGA: So, who among these nine nominees do you view as a clone of Donald Trump?

HURD: Well, many of the people that are running have served in his administration. Many of the people that are running talk similar as Donald

Trump and are afraid of questioning him and taking and challenging him.

You know, you say at the top of this conversation, you know, I've been pretty frank and pretty honest from day one, I was one of the few people

that recognize Donald Trump's problems back in 2015.


HURD: And so, what the public wants is someone who has been consistent on - - in those views. So, I think you're going to see a lot of people changing their positions over the next couple of months. But I actually believe the

number of people in the race is a good thing.

The Republican Party should not be a party that's focused on group thing. I think having debates are good things. I think having conversations and

different opinions is a good thing. And ultimately, that the party benefits from having a diversity of voices.

GOLODRYGA: So, if I can --

HURD: And we just need to make sure that we have a modern party. Yes?

GOLODRYGA: Yes. If I can interrupt you, among these nine potential candidates now who have made it official that they are running for the

nomination, you say that that's a good thing, but that also appears to be a good thing from Trump's perspective as well, because that helped him steal

the nomination last time. What makes this time different?

HURD: Well, I think this time what's different is you have a decent amount of -- you know, 20 percent of the electorate that is not going to vote for

anybody like Donald Trump or for Donald Trump. And then -- let's say, you know, on a conservative estimate, 27 to 32 percent of people that are going

to vote for Donald Trump, there's a lot in the middle of that can be one.


And let's also be honest, voters are not paying attention to this election yet, just because those of us that are involved in politics and cover this

in the news are looking at every single thing. A lot can happen between now and January when the first primaries happen.

And look, the other difference with this group of candidates is that a lot of them already have the very high name I.D. and, you know, voters are

looking for something a little bit different. So, you know, yes, the size is going to potentially be similar to 2016 but there's a different variety

of candidates in this election.

GOLODRYGA: Well, let's talk about the candidate that arguably has the most voter recognition, if for no other reason than his alliance with Former

President Trump, and that is Former Vice President Mike Pence. It's the first time in history that you are having a vice president take on a

president that actually put him on his own ticket, and the two now running against each other. But obviously, January 6th changed all of that.

Let's listen to the former vice president on CNN and his thoughts on why he's running when he was asked.


PENCE: But frankly, when I saw those images and when I read a tweet that President Trump issued saying that I lacked courage in that moment, it

angered me greatly. But to be honest with you, I didn't have time for it. The president had decided in that moment to be a part of the problem. I

decided and was determined to be part of the solution.


GOLODRYGA: So, Pence deserves kudos for doing the right thing at the right time. He is the most conservative candidates in that running right now, but

he draws about 4 percent of polling from voters, even in heavily evangelical Iowa. What does that say to you about the chances of his


HURD: That says he has a narrow pathway in being successful. I would agree with you that Mike Pence is indeed a staunch conservative. I enjoyed

working with Mike Pence when he was vice president. But his pathway is very narrow and partly because his name I.D. is particularly high. And I think

that's a sign, again, with voters, like Mike Pence absolutely did the right thing on January 6th. There is no question about that. I've been very clear

about that over the years.

But ultimately, the voters -- you know, there's four years of entanglement with Donald Trump and things that Donald Trump did in office that Mike

Pence is also going to have to answer to. And so, when you have both sections of the party, those that are pro Trump and those that are not, are

not liking you or are upset with you, that's a very narrow path, ultimately, for victory.

But I go back to this notion, like we need to win in November and we have that opportunity if we pick the right candidate. President Biden's approval

numbers our super low. People want to see something different, and that's the opportunities for Republicans to take advantage of come November.

GOLODRYGA: Is this an opportunity, in your view, for Former Jersey Governor Chris Christie? Because he has not held back, as we heard in the intro

there, and from other comments that he's made recently, before ultimately announcing, and fighting words against Former President Trump. Let's just

give you another sample here.


CHRISTIE: A lonely, self-consumed, self-serving mirror hog is not a leader.

The reason I'm going after Trump is twofold. One, he deserves it. And two, it's the way to win.


GOLODRYGA: Let's not forget thought that he was the first candidate back in 2016 to endorsed Former President Trump. He also helped former president

during his debate, and ultimately, caught COVID from that administration's lax policies with regards to masking. So, your views on this turnaround

that we've seen from him, and will this help him, potentially, with Republican voters?

HURD: Well, I think having someone as firm as Governor Christie reminding folks about Donald Trump's foibles is a good thing. But ultimately, he's --

you know, Governor Christie is going to have to answer for those changes of opinions at a time when we already knew what Donald Trump's shortcomings

ultimately were. And so, that's going to probably plague him as he goes through and continues the campaign.


Here's what I have learned at my time in politics. I'm a black Republican that represent 72 percent Latino district. Nobody thought I could

potentially win, and when you represent a district that's 50/50, 50 percent Republican and 50 percent Democrat, people are always upset with -- half

the district is upset with you with what you're doing. But what I've learned from that experience is people expect ideological consistency.

Be the saint, when your team is in power and then when your team is out of power. And I think that's why government in general has such low numbers --

approval numbers is because the population is sick and tired of people saying one thing and doing something else, and then doing something even

different when a different person is in office. And so, I think that strategy for success, it's worked for me and I think it's going to work for


GOLODRYGA: There is a black candidate, a Republican candidate in the running right now, and that South Carolina Senator Tim Scott. He is very

well liked in the party. "Politico" called him a happy warrior. And it speaks to a trend, a small trend, I don't want to overstate it, that we

have seen though, and that is an increase in the number of black male voters that voted for Donald Trump last time is when I believe is at 5 or 6

percent. In similar figures for Hispanics. Hispanic women who voted Republican, who voted for Donald Trump in the past.

Do you see that trend continuing, and perhaps, could it be Tim Scott who continues to see that trend move north?

HURD: Well, that trend for Republicans to win the black and brown vote is significant if we talk about issues that those communities ultimately care

about. And look, there is a math problem, ultimately, in primaries. The Democrats have it, Republicans have it, only 23 percent of the population

actually votes in primaries. That's a fraction of the country, obviously. And when you look at general elections, depending on the, year, you have

about 67 percent of the population vote.

And so, there's a lot of, why are those people not voting in primaries? It's because they may not like who the candidates are and people aren't

talking about those issues. But again, do Republicans have an opportunity to -- within one of the three largest growing group of voters, and those

are young folks, women with a college degree that live in the suburbs, and minority communities? We do have an opportunity, but that's going to

require people talking to them.

And I think, you know, Tim is an example, I'm an example. You have a number of examples of people that know how to do that. And, again, it's an upside,

but got to be talking about how are we preparing our kids for jobs of the future? They have to deal with A.I. and quantum computing. How do we make

sure that our teachers have the tools that they need in order to educate our kids? You know, how are we going to deal with crime in our cities that

are increasing?


HURD: These are all the things that folks in those communities care about, and we need to be talking about those things.

GOLODRYGA: Well, some of the issues -- and in just a few moments that we have left, some of the issues that you have not raced are culture wars and

abortion rights in this country and how they apply to Republican voters in mass, and that brings me to Ron DeSantis, another candidate in the race.

Many believed him to be the one, the strongest candidate to take on Donald Trump. He has, so far, not been able to do that. But as you rightly noted,

it is still early.

Do you think part of the problem lies in the policies that he has chosen to focus on?

HURD: Sure. And also, right -- you know, look, Cinderella is not the biggest threat to the United States of America right now. And that was a

trip up, not recognizing and understanding the role that America plays in the rest of the world in defending Ukraine. We need Ukraine to win, period,

full stop. And Ukraine winning means pushing the Russians out of all of Ukraine, to include Crimea, and folks that don't understand that realize

this hurts the United States. We have built an international order that has benefited the U.S., and when we don't defend that order, that's ultimately

going to hurt us.

And so, again, voters recognize and understand that, and these are the existential issues that are impacting our quality of life and our way of

life. The number of people that think that our best days are behind us, not ahead of us are worrying because we don't have enough people thinking about

the future and where the country should go.


GOLODRYGA: Well, Will Hurd, as you are coming to a decision as to what your future looks like, please don't be shy, reach out to us if there's any news

you'd like to make as well on that front. Thank you for your time, in the meantime.

HURD: Always a pleasure to be on with you.

GOLODRYGA: Take care. Well, today, that PGA Tour stands accused of selling out, putting money over morals by merging with its once sworn rival, LIV

Golf. LIV Golf is backed my money from Saudi Arabia, which the U.S. blames for murdering and dismembering a journalist, Jamal Khashoggi. It was also

home to most of the 9/11 hijackers, and it has an appalling track record on human rights, especially in the treatment of women.

Today, PGA Tour commissioner, Jay Monahan, is facing mounting pressure to resign, and the hypocrisy of the decision isn't lost, even on him.


JAY MONAHAN, PGA TOUR COMMISSIONER: I recognize that people are going to call me a hypocrite. And anytime I've said anything I said it with the

information I had at that moment, and I said it based on someone that's trying to compete for the PGA Tour and our players. And so, I accept those

criticisms, but circumstances do change.


GOLODRYGA: 9/11 justice calls it a betrayal, accusing the PGA Tour of "spineless money grab."


TERRY STRADA, CHAIR, 9/11 FAMILIES UNITED: He sold out every single one of us. He turned his back on the 9/11 community, and he sold out his players,

his fans, the golf base, the American people, and for what? What changed that he decided to do this and take a stand with the Kingdom and against

the 9/11 families?


GOLODRYGA: Brian Todd explains how we got to this stunning about turn.


BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): A mega business deal that surprised everyone but tightest power circles in the sport of golf. The

U.S.-based PGA Tour announces it will partner with the rival tour it's been trying to fight off for a year, Saudi-backed LIV Golf.

DAN RAPAPORT, GOLF JOURNALIST, BARSTOOL SPORTS: Just how fast and how stark the 180 happened is definitely shocking and the fact that nobody knew that

this was coming?

TODD (voiceover): Last year, LIV Golf succeeded in luring away top PGA players like Phil Mickelson, Bryson DeChambeau, and Dustin Johnson. It

reportedly offered superstar Tiger Woods between $700 and $800 million to join, which Woods turned down.

The PGA Tour fought tooth and nail to stem LIV Golf's momentum, barring defecting players from competing in some PGA Tour events, engaging in legal

disputes with the Saudi tour. What changed?

RAPAPORT: The money went out in the end. The Saudis had way more money for the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour, I guess, came to a conclusion that they

couldn't continue to fight this fight. They didn't have the resources to continue.

TODD (voiceover): Now, one of America's most iconic sports entities teams up with a tour backed by a wealth fund chaired Mohammed bin Salman, known

as MBS, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, the man who U.S. intelligence said approved the of the operation which led to the murder and

dismemberment of "Washington Post" columnist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018, which bin Salman has denied.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Basically, the headline is, never mind. Everything we talked about, the outrage of the PGA Tour, how they

spoke about the 9/11 families and their concern about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, that's all out the window. The PGA Tour has wimped out, let's

just say what it is.

TODD (voiceover): A year ago, PGA commissioner Jay Monahan told CBS this about the Saudi golf tour.

MONAHAN: As it relates to the families of 9/11, I have two families that are close to me that lost loved ones. And so, my heart goes out to them.

And I would ask, you know, any player that has left, or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a

member of the PGA Tour?

TODD (voiceover): This is what Monahan says now about the murder to CNBC.

MONAHAN: We've recognized that together we can have a far greater impact on this game than we can working apart.

TODD (voiceover): Analysts say that the new deal gives the Saudis power that they haven't had before in the world of sports.

BRENNAN: They are leaping for joy. They are dancing through the streets because they have won.


GOLODRYGA: Well, now turning to Haiti, a nation reeling from yesterday's deadly earthquake that killed at least four people. Just after the

devastating floods, which left thousands homeless and over 40 dead. These disasters only add to the suffering in a country already plagued by gang

violence and government instability.

Our next guest, Dr. Jean Pape says, without international help, the country could descend into a civil war. And here he is speaking with Michele



MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Dr. Jean Pape, thank you so much for joining us.


MARTIN: We have a number of things to talk with you about, but how are things now? I understand that there was very serious flooding just within

the last couple of days. How are you? How are things?


DR. PAPE: Well, we're OK. You know, June 1st, start of hurricane season, and Haiti is one of the most fragile countries in the world. So, on June

1st, we have very, very bad weather that led to flooding where we are, including in my own office.

But the country suffered the most. We have 42 deaths, unfortunately, and 11 people have disappeared. We have not seen any sign of them. And 10 of

thousands of people who are homeless. We also have an earthquake yesterday in the south of the country that killed four people. So, that's the

situation. The country is very fragile.

MARTIN: For people who have ever been to Haiti or who have done work there, who have visited, they are well aware that your clinic, GHESKIO, has never

shut down before. Are you able to treat people at the moment?

DR. PAPE: Oh, yes. Since yesterday, we were fully operational. Because we work this past Sunday to clean the place and things are good, we are

completely operational.

MARTIN: That's good to hear. Well, you wrote a very powerful and, frankly, very alarming piece for "The New York Times," I guest essay saying that

things are really dire, and you said this was the first time you really feel that Haiti needs outside help? Why did you say that? Why do you say


DR. PAPE: Well, this is correct. As you know, we've lived through political instability, 23 governments since 1986. We've lived through major

hurricanes. We had two major earthquakes, 2010 in particular was devastating. But what's particularly hard now is that we have a perfect

storm. Because the political crisis as (INAUDIBLE), we had a president was elected, but this president had an opposition even before he got into


With the country is being locked, that is closed for three months by the opposition at the time, where schools, even in the country, where 50

percent of people are illiterate, schools were forced to close, business is close, et cetera. So, this was very, very damaging to the country that

could be related (ph) with assassination of the president this past to July 2021. And since that time, we have no elected person in government. So,

this is the political part.

Now, if you look at the economy, four the last few years the economy has been negative, just like the economies -- or country at war. We are not at

war with any country. We are at war with ourselves. That's a problem. And, you know, the inflation is 47 percent, the local currency has been

devaluated 50 percent in the last three years.

Now, with this situation, we have a huge humanitarian crisis, because the price of food has increased a lot. But something new happened, and this is

perhaps the most severe, the fact that gangs have taken control of the entry to the capital, both south and north. And because of that, you have

crops being produced by (INAUDIBLE) in the countryside that are being rotten because they cannot bring them to the capital. So, that has also

increased the price of food. And as a result, we have over 50 percent of people living in food insecurity.

In our own center, as we are seeing more and more children, we've (INAUDIBLE) severe dehydration and severe malnutrition. With severe

malnutrition, it's associated with all kinds of infectious diseases. So, this is horrible. This is something that we don't want.

MARTIN: Talk to me about but the gangs. I mean, is there any leadership among them? I mean, surely, some of their own members of these gangs are

also experiencing these conditions.

DR. PAPE: Well, you know, I'm not an expert on gangs. I don't work with gangs and I have not studied gang. But what I've seen basically is the fact

that they have evolved essentially in a vacuum, because when we are occupied by the U.N. forces from 2004 to 2017, 14 years, the country was

very stable, because at one point, they had the force of 9,000 people, mostly military people, with -- very well equipped with tanks, et cetera,

the country was very stable. There was nothing going on.


But unfortunately, they didn't train their replacements. For some reason, the U.S. decided to deactivate the Haitian army, and the Haitian army is

the one that was in charge previously of doing everything, police and army.

And then, they created -- France, the U.S. and Canada, created these new police force. At one point, they were strong of 13,000, which was still

much too little for a country of over 11 million. But now, at most, they are 4,000 fighting gates (ph). But they were never trained to do that. They

don't even have one tank. We don't have one tank in our country. Can you believe that? And they struggle to get those armed vehicles that they are

using now. And that the gangs are actually burning with Molotov cocktails.

So, they are not as equipped as the gangs. And at the same time, there was an embargo for the Haitian government to purchase guns by the U.S., while

actually 90 percent of the gangs, that's what is being reported, the guns are coming from the U.S. So, this is kind of absurd.

So, basically, there was never a large program for the youths, which are mostly unemployed. So, gang attraction became something very, very

interesting because they were paid also. They were paid by the gangs to join them, and the gangs we're making a lot of money. They kidnapped the

poorest to the richest.

MARTIN: What is day to day life like for you and for the people who work with you? Can you just sort of describe what it takes to get through the


DR. PAPE: Well, I can tell you, we are resilient. We are motivated. We are optimist. So, we wake up in the morning with the idea that we could be

kidnapped or killed, but we come in a convoy. We also leave in a convoy, because we feel we are stronger when we are together.

But when we are here, you may -- during our interview here some gunfire, because it's usually unusual when you don't hear them. They are all around

us. And it's been difficult because we have, on four occasions, members of our staff kidnapped. The pressure we put on the gangs is that we close the

centers. When we close the center, from where I'm talking to you now, it's in downtown Port-au-Prince, that has been abandoned by the U.S., by

friends, nobody stays downtown, because it has never been rebuilt, it was destroyed by the earthquake. But we are close to the poor people, and they

asked us to stay, and we stayed with them.

When we close here, it's a disaster. Because we receive on a daily basis 2,000 people get free care. So, even --

MARTIN: Two thousand people a day?

DR. PAPE: Yes, who get free care.

MARTIN: Every day.

DR. PAPE: So, the street merchants don't even come home we close. So, the gangs released our staff without a ransom. We never paid ransom. But, you

know, it's still a huge traumatic experience, even if you are kidnapped for an hour or a minute, because it's your freedom that's taken off from you.

MARTIN: Yes. And we've heard of these really gruesome attacks on what police remain, and have members of your staff left the country just because

it's just too much, it's just more than they can tolerate?

DR. PAPE: It's not just members of our staff. There is a huge exodus. The largest ever, because of insecurity. The majority of them have left for the

U.S. or Canada, Canada mostly. But, now, with the opening through the Biden offering, we have more people leaving, including policemen.

Now, to understand, we have a staff of 600. We lost 200 of the best and brightest. So, this is the situation we're in now, it's desperate.

MARTIN: If this continues, would do you say that it is likely you will have to shut down, that you cannot continue under these circumstances? Is that a

realistic possibility?

DR. PAPE: Yes. If this continues, we'll have to shut down the downtown center, because where we are, it's the most interesting part. Nobody wants

to come down here. And for about 20 years, it's been called the red zone.

MARTIN: If you were to close down there, what do you think the result would be?


DR. PAPE: Well, you know, it would have three impacts, because our mission is one of patient care. We are the largest center for HIV and tuberculosis

in the Americas, one of the largest. So, that, we suffer a lot. And we also have a large center for cardiovascular disease, because this has become the

number one killer (INAUDIBLE). So, we opened a center for that. And it's really at the downtown site where I am right now.

In terms of training, we are the largest postgraduate training center in Haiti. We also have the first master of public health program and nurse

practitioner program with Quisqueya University. And also, a large community health program.

And then, for research, we've published over 300 papers, and some of them have changed the guidelines for WHO on HIV, tuberculosis, cholera, and now

cardiovascular disease. So, this is the impact that it would have.

MARTIN: One of the things you were telling us earlier is that the gangs have controlled -- at least at certain point, they controlled access not

just to, you know, major -- of entire neighborhoods, but an access to the fuel depot and access to the airport. So, how are you even getting your

supplies at this point?

DR. PAPE: From us, it's a huge problem. The gangs, in fact, they had kidnapped a container that contain two extra machines that were going to be

delivered to our site. When they learned it was for us, they let it go. So, I cannot complain about that for the downtown center. But for the rest of

the country, it's terrible.

For a business person to have a container leaving customs, it's a nightmare. So, the country -- the entire country is in agony. I don't know

how long we can sustain this.

MARTIN: You said in your piece that you have never before called for international intervention, and you also made the point that, you know, no

country would want that. No country wants, you know, foreign soldiers on their soil. But at this point, you feel that there is no other choice. What

would that look like? What do you think would help the most at this point?

DR. PAPE: Well, honestly, what we need, we need a support to the national police, because they are fighting alone. They don't have the proper guns.

They don't have the numbers but the population is helping them, because I think that the population alone has been now so desperate that they are

ready to defend themselves, with whatever they have. Unfortunately, it's not a solution either because innocent people could also perish in this.

But the reality is that they've been so abandoned by the international community and the government cannot protect them, that now they have formed

brigades in many neighborhoods where they are defending themselves to make sure that they are not the victims of gangs anymore. But this will not

solve the issue. We need to bring back law and order. We need justice.

MARTIN: Do you have a message for particularly people in the United States and perhaps Canada or perhaps France who may be listening to this

conversation and might be wondering what they can do to support you and your colleagues, and anyone who wishes to see stability and frankly,

humanity returned to Haiti, because as you pointed out, that no one wants to live like this?

DR. PAPE: Yes. I think that an unstable Haiti is not good for anybody. It's not good for a neighborhood, the Dominican Republic, it's not good for the

journalists, it's not good for the United States. I think that France -- we have strong ties with France, I think they can also help.

I understand that there are some French and American trainers who come in Haiti to train the national police. We need a leaderboard in that. We need

people on the ground that can direct operations. And we also need some support to invest in the youths.

It's not normal the youth has no future. That the only thing that they can think of is leaving the country. It's not good for anybody. And I think

that they are amazing, because what we offer them training ourselves in our vocational school, and it's amazing to see what they can do.

We also have the school here, on the premises from where I'm talking to you. And you should see how kids are eager to learn. So, we need to change

the dynamic. For once, give Haiti a good chance. We never have that.


MARTIN: Before we let you go, and I don't want to offend with this question, but I do think there are those who will be listening to our

conversation who might wonder with your training, your international relationships, and the respect that you have, you know, around the world, I

think there are those who wonder why you stay? Why do you stay?

DR. PAPE: You know, I've built with my colleagues this center. It's unique in many ways. I'm an infectious disease person, that's my specialty. But we

have also set up a cardiovascular center, because this is the number one killer in the country.

Here, we are making a difference. We've seen AIDS being the number one cause of death for treating (ph) kids, now it's a (ph) seventh cause of

death. Cardiovascular disease is the new challenge, and we are tackling that. And at the same time, when things are desperate, we are operational,

we are going to present our results, the results of over core (ph) of 3,000 people that we followed for five years, we are going to follow them to 10


So, at the same time, the country is not working, we are fully functional. So, essentially, it would be a shame to leave all that we've built. And I

think it would be a waste for the country. I don't want to do that. It's my legacy to my country.

MARTIN: Dr. Jean Pape, thank you so much for speaking with us.

DR. PAPE: My pleasure.


GOLODRYGA: Well, up next, to say his back catalog is eclectic would be an understatement. From studio albums to soundtracks, classical operas and

interpretations of Shakespeare sonnets, Rufus Wainwright has been very busy since he was named Rolling Stones best new artist of the year back in 1998.

Well, now, he's setting out on a new world tour of the back of his new album, called "Folkocracy." He says it's like a recording birthday party

for his 50th, and it's packed with other artists like Sheryl Crow, Chaka Khan and John Legend. Here's a flavor of his new work. The song is called

"Down in the Willow Garden," and it's a traditional Appalachian ballet about a man accused of murdering his lover.


RUFUS WAINWRIGHT, MUSICIAN: Down in the willow garden. Where me and my love did meet. As we set a courting, my love fell off to sleep.


GOLODRYGA: And Canadian American singer, songwriter and composer, Rufus Wainwright, joins us live from of Los Angeles. What a pleasure and delight

to have you on with us, Rufus.

First of all, congratulations on this latest album, and it coincides with the 25th anniversary of the last album that you released. So, my first

question is, how do you view your music having grown and evolved over the past quarter of a century?

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT, MUSICIAN: Yes. Well, I -- yes. It's all very odd because none of this was planned. I also turned 50 this year. So, I will be -- so,

there's this odd sort of kind of cosmic situation going on.

But, no, I guess, as most people who when they approach the middle of their life, they do start to look back, you know, at the beginning and at their

childhood. And so, yes, this is -- yes, I'm starting to get a lot of perspective here, and I'm just sharing that with the public.

GOLODRYGA: And perhaps, still at the height of your career, because I do want to read for you what one reviewer described of the album. And here's

what he said, you have never sung better on record. For once, the advanced P.R. is correct, the album sounds like a party to which the birthday boy

invited his favorite people, a newly jazz Wainwright has learned from the company he keeps. "Folkocracy" is as generous as a utopia.

I would imagine you love hearing reviews like that.

WAINWRIGHT: Yes, yes, yes. No, I mean, I've always been very respected by, you know, the press and I have a wonderful audience that has supported me

through the years. But let's just say that, you know, I've done well. But really, when the critics enjoy my work, that's kind of the top -- the heap

for me because I don't -- I'm not in this for the money. I'm not in this to be, you know, a commercial, you know, superstar. But I am in it for the

music. So, yes. So, when I get that kind of appreciation, it does mean a lot.


GOLODRYGA: Appreciation from fans and critics, I mean, that is a rare feat.


GOLODRYGA: And something that is well deserved for you. Let's talk about that song that we played in the intro.


GOLODRYGA: "Down in the Willow Garden."


GOLODRYGA: It is a beautiful song. And then, you start listening to the lyrics. And boy, those are some dark lyrics.


GOLODRYGA: I mean, the singer poisoned a dear little girl down by willow garden. Here's what you said about the song. You said, the song is so

blatantly brittle and masochistic that I had to sing it with a woman, Brandi Carlile. Sadly, we still live in a violent world.


GOLODRYGA: What does it say to you that this is the sort of song that continues to get passed down through generations via folk music?

WAINWRIGHT: Yes. I mean, for better or for worse, I mean, folk music reflects the reality of humanity of which there's a lot of violence, you

know, in the world. So, folk music, you know, tackles that.

I do feel though that in reinterpreting a lot of these classics, you do have to be more sensitive and more -- and you have to -- you know, it has

to advance to our present time. So, I felt with this it was necessary to do it with a woman. I don't think you could sing this song with two men

anymore. It would just be too much. But with a woman, it's -- you know, more 21st century, for sure.

GOLODRYGA: Well, music and folk music is literally in your DNA. Your mother was the beloved Canadian folk icon, Kate McGarrigle, and your father is the

singer-songwriter, Loudon Wainwright III. And yet, this is your first real folk album.


GOLODRYGA: Does it -- thinking back, I mean, is there a reason why you think you may have waited so long?

WAINWRIGHT: You know, that's an interesting question. I mean, I grew up in the folk world, going to festivals and singing with my parents and my

family, and I always adored it. I will say though, I felt a little bit different from most because I am an out gay man and I knew that very early

on in my life and that wasn't necessarily an avenue that was so obvious in that environment.

So, when I discovered opera and Broadway, and Julie Garland stuff, I kind of went my own direction. And -- but as I've gotten older, I realized that

that -- you know, that education, that foundation and folk music has always stayed with me and has always given me, you know, a really solid, you know,

musical voice. So, I have come back, yes, I've come back.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. It's taken you a few decades to explore other avenues --


GOLODRYGA: -- and be successful in them.


GOLODRYGA: We should note. To come back to your roots.


GOLODRYGA: Your mother passed away in 2010.


GOLODRYGA: How did her musical legacy influence you?

WAINWRIGHT: Well, my mother was an incredible musician and also, an incredible teacher. Both my sister, Martha Wainwright and I, we're really

trained by her from a very, very young age just to sing harmonies and play instruments, and she just never let up, you know. And it wasn't always

easy, but it paid off, obviously. And we miss her dearly.

And what's really nice is that the last song on this album, it's called "Wild Mountain Thyme," and you can see it there, he plays the banjo a lot,

and we actually used her actual banjo on the recording. So, the very last note on the album is my mother's banjo, played by Chaim Tannenbaum, our

friend. So, it was really good to get that in there.

GOLODRYGA: I imagine that was a really emotional thing to add as well for you and personal.

WAINWRIGHT: Yes. Oh, yes.

GOLODRYGA: Has your father given you any feedback on this album?

WAINWRIGHT: You know --

GOLODRYGA: Do ask for any?

WAINWRIGHT: Not yet. But I'm expecting I will get some. And, you know, I -- look, I think the thing with my dad and I is that, you know, we get along

well now. It's been rocky here and there. But we're so -- we look so similar and we sound so similar. We're kind of this slightly carbon copy of

each other. So, I think, if anything, we kind of freak each other out because we're so similar.

So, it's -- in fact, someone the other day said, I know your son, to me, I don't have a son. And I said, no, you know me. You think that I'm --

whatever, it's complicated.


WAINWRIGHT: But yes, my father and I are becoming the same person.

GOLODRYGA: I think that this all goes back to the world you describe about turning 50, and something in the constellations there. Now, all of a

sudden, people are thinking that you are your father.


GOLODRYGA: That is a compliment though. I do have to say.

WAINWRIGHT: Yes. It is, it is. Yes, yes.

GOLODRYGA: Given both of your talents.


GOLODRYGA: Let's play some more from the album. This is "Harvest." Let's listen to this song. You're joined by singer-songwriter, Andrew Bird.


GOLODRYGA: And this is by Neil Young, obviously. Let's listen.






GOLODRYGA: Is it difficult to collaborate with others? I mean, is this one of these cases where you have to check your ego at the door? Is 50/50 type

of partnership that you view it as? Talk about the process that you go through.

WAINWRIGHT: Yes, yes. I would say in most cases, it's a joy. There are occasions where it can be tough. But with Andrew Bird and also, Chris

Stills, I should mention, in there who sings on that, it's thrilling. And I have to say, you know, that's one of the main messages of this album, is

for people to return a little bit more to that idea of everybody getting together in the same room and creating music in real-time, you know,

without too many computers or devices, and it's just being about like playing an instrument or harmonizing.

Because, yes, in most cases, it's probably one of the most thrilling things on the planet when you really, you know, do it. So -- and it really works.

So -- and with these folks on, it's very possible. You know, these songs are meant to be shared and to be -- you know, and to, you know, bring joy.

So, I -- you know, that's the message behind this record.

GOLODRYGA: And watching the filming there, obviously, COVID plays a role too.


GOLODRYGA: How does that impacted your work?

WAINWRIGHT: Yes, yes. No, well, I mean, I -- look, COVID in general, obviously, was a terrible thing. But as a touring musician who is on the

road all the time and working so hard, I needed a break from being on a plane. So, I took full advantage of that period and wrote a lot of songs

and really, folk -- got to focus, you know, just what my desires were artistically moving forward.

So, in a lot of ways, I would say this album, it springs from that because I was able to just stop and think about, you know, what matters to me and

musically and folk music, you know, arose as a feeling I had to follow.

GOLODRYGA: Well, you don't escape politics in this album as well.


GOLODRYGA: In fact, one of the most political songs on the album is one of yours, "Going to a Town."


GOLODRYGA: And you recorded that with singer-songwriter, Anohni.


GOLODRYGA: And the two of you, as you've said, an open gay man and a trans woman saying --


GOLODRYGA: -- "Tell me, do really think you'd go to hell for having loved? And I'm so tired of you, America."

WAINWRIGHT: Yes, yes, yes.

GOLODRYGA: Give us the background of this song.

WAINWRIGHT: Yes. I mean, I wrote this song many years ago around the time of the invasion of Iraq. So, during the Bush years. And sadly, this song

has become a kind of traditional that I could sing every few years, considering what's happened in this country.

I do think it's a love song, you know. It's very critical, but it is a piece of music that I feel could be written for a person that you have a

lot of emotions for and that you really care about and that you're very, you know, disappointed in but also believe that, you know, you can tell

them the truth because they can get better. Because there are moments when this country is great. And we do fluctuate so much. So, it is not a total

negative song about the U.S., but it is critical. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: And change in growth, as you note, is always possible in this country as well.


GOLODRYGA: Quickly, we have 30 seconds left. I'm going to ask you a question you're not going to like. Any of these collaborators, which one is

your favorite, because it really is an embarrassment of riches?

WAINWRIGHT: Oh, God. Well, certainly, I sing Chaka Khan on the record. And having, you know, Chaka Khan actually sing with Rufus, me, was kind of

thrilling, for those of you who know her history, because she was in a band called Rufus. So, that was really fun. And -- but at the end, I have to say

my family, you know, because we end with "Wild Mountain Thyme," and that's always the most deep and the most beautiful.

GOLODRYGA: I did love your version of "Cotton Eyed Joe" with Chaka Khan as well.

WAINWRIGHT: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: It is a beautiful album. Congratulations. Please don't wait another 25 for your next one.. And happy birthday.

WAINWRIGHT: OK. Thank you. Bye.

GOLODRYGA: Good to see you, Rufus.

And finally. Who doesn't love a swim in the sunshine? Certainly, these Sumatran tiger cubs in London Zoo do, here, as you see in this video. I'm a

little tongue-tied here. They are enjoying their first swim ever actually. Even for the big cats like these, going into the water can be a little

scary at first. But it wasn't long until they were up and playing around in their new pond. These cubs are the rare species of tiger and critically

endangered. They're only 300 left in the wild, sadly.


The zoo says the new additions who arrive last year are a great boost to the conservation and it seems they passed their first swimming lesson with

flying colors. It isn't easy, but look, they've mastered it well.

Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from New York.