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Interview with Council of Foreign Relations Senior Fellow for Korea Studies and Former CIA Senior Analyst Sue Mi Terry; Interview with Equal Justice Initiative Executive Director Bryan Stevenson; Interview with James Beard Award-Winning Chef and "Black Food" Author Bryant Terry. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 19, 2024 - 13:00:00   ET



BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.


VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Both countries denounce politically motivated sanctions and restrictions, which only

destabilize the global political and economic system.


GOLODRYGA: A meeting of despots and an anti-West axis. Analysis as Putin and Kim strike a defense deal.

Then --


BRYAN STEVENSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EQUAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE: And I continue to believe that there is something that feels more like freedom,

more like equality, more like justice, and I think it's waiting for us.


GOLODRYGA: Juneteenth, as America celebrates the end of slavery, the ongoing struggle for racial justice. Christiane speaks to civil rights

lawyer and activist, Bryan Stevenson.

Plus --


BRYANT TERRY, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND AUTHOR, "BLACK FOOD": We know that food has always played a central role in culture expression,

community building, and survival.


GOLODRYGA: -- the evolution and diversity of African American cuisine with the award-winning chef, Bryan Terry.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

A pact between dictators. Vladimir Putin has wrapped up his trip to North Korea, where he was greeted with much fanfare. There, he signed a

comprehensive defense deal with Kim Jong Un. Speaking after lengthy talks, Putin did not rule out "the provision of mutual assistance in the event of

aggression against one of the parties to this agreement." Here's the Russian president.


VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Today, we held substantive negotiations on a whole range of practical cooperation. This

includes political, trade, investment, cultural spheres, and the security sphere as well. I agree that this is truly a breakthrough document

reflecting the desire of both countries not to stop at their achievements, but to raise our achievements at a qualitative new level.


GOLODRYGA: Kim said the eyes of the world were on Pyongyang, stating, I stand with Russian comrades, vowing his full support for Putin's illegal

war in Ukraine. And Putin certainly wants arms from North Korea. The question is what he is willing to give in return. And what does this

strengthening of an anti-West axis mean for America and its allies?

First, let's bring in Correspondent Mike Valerio from Seoul in South Korea for more on this visit. Mike, I'm going to ask you about how this was all

viewed from Seoul in just a minute, but first lay out what we saw the first time that Russian President Putin visited Pyongyang in 24 years. A lot of

pomp in these past 48 hours.

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Absolutely, Bianna. I think really there was an indelible image and an indelible policy moment that followed a

couple hours after that pomp and circumstance really started to play out in the central square, Kim Il Sung Square of Pyongyang that could hold a

hundred thousand people.

So, the indelible image is really conveying that these two leaders of sanctioned countries, countries that are under heavy U.N. and Western

sanctions, can go their own way, survive on their own. And we're talking about Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin in an open air, sleek black limo to the

throngs of thousands of people watching in Kim Il Sung Square, trying to project this image that yes, you know what? We got this. We're standing

stronger together and we can go our own way as equal partners in this new alliance that Kim Jong Un used that pointed word of alliance later on in

the day when this meeting was all said and done. So, that is the visual that we have here.

And then they go and meet behind closed doors for about three and a half hours. And Vladimir Putin comes out, Bianna, and says, you know, we've made

progress on economic, trade, people to people issues, but we also have made progress in the sphere of mutual defense. Saying that there is a provision

of mutual assistance in the event of aggression.

So, we're all standing here as observers and people in diplomatic quarters saying, OK, what exactly does that mean, mutual assistance in moments of

aggression? And of course, we have a 1961 treaty, no longer in effect clearly, between the USSR and North Korea, signed by Kim Il Sung and

Khrushchev in July 1st of 1961, saying that if either country was to come under attack, that both would have immediate military assistance.


The language here does not seem to be as strong, but we don't have the full text of this agreement. And perhaps, Bianna, that is the point, to be

incredibly vague about this, to shake things up, creating, you know, a path to this new world order that Russia wants to shape, to counter the existing

rules-based, laws-based order that the United States and the West are the vanguards of.

So, that's where we find ourselves right now. We're going to watch this space because there is supposedly another meeting summit of some sort in a

similar vein happening in Moscow and the not-too-distant future, but, you know, the ramifications, the implications here are, will we start to see

military drills, military cooperation, as you mentioned in the introduction to the segment, between Russia and North Korea, perhaps drills near some of

these disputed islands on the border of North and South Korea?

So, this is just the first chapter of this new closer relationship, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: And how is this all being consumed in South Korea, Mike, where we've seen an increase in provocations via balloons between these two

sides, South Korea had been sending balloons into the north with anti-North Korea leaflets and then in response, we saw South Korea -- North Korea,

over the past few weeks, sending garbage filled balloons, about 1,000 of them to the South?

VALERIO: You know, I think that people are over the balloons. You know, don't even get me started on that subject, but I think when we're talking

about the diplomacy and Russia entering the chat of this conversation, it's being met with deep concern. That is the exact verbiage that South Korean

security officials are lending to this topic of conversation when they were meeting with their Chinese counterparts yesterday to discuss their

collective security concerns that affects both China and South Korea.

So, you know, interestingly enough, we have President Yoon Suk Yeol who was asked at a May 9th news conference what he would do, how he would feel if

Vladimir Putin visited Pyongyang and had this bromance moment with North Korea's leader Kim Jong Un? And he was very careful. He said that South

Korea actually, in the relative scheme of things, has pretty good relations with Russia. And Russia, in fact, says that, of all the not so friendly

nations, South Korea is one of the best. South Korea, notably, is not sending lethal munitions to Ukraine. Vladimir Putin went out of his way

last week to say that just -- make it known that he appreciates South Korea not sending those lethal munitions.

So, long story long, Yoon Suk Yeol, the president here in South Korea, is trying to walk a fine line. He's saying that a lot of these Russian moves

are making him uncomfortable. They're going to try to work with Russia in areas where they can cooperate. So, a lot of deep concern, a lot of

tightrope walking. We're waiting for the dust to settle for perhaps some more clarity on whether or not this is a new autocratic version of NATO

Article 5. And we're just going to have to wait over the next 24 hours how this is officially received.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Mike Valerio in Seoul for us, thanks for joining us and making clear that we are over balloon gate there. For a deeper dive now

on the ramifications of the strategic partnership, let's bring in Sue Mi Terry. She worked on the issue of North Korea within the U.S. government

first for the CIA and then for the National Security Council, and she's now a senior fellow for Korea Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Sue Mi Terry, thank you so much for joining us. First, just your response to this visit, in some sense, a historic one, given that it's been 24 years

since Vladimir Putin has visited the hermit state. And yet, we have no readout of what this mutual defense pledge really entails. There have been

several past iterations of a similar type of pledge, the most recent in 2000, and that one, the only clause was that they would be calling each

other and contacting each other in certain emergency situations. Talk about what you make of what we saw signed today.


Putin visiting North Korea is significant. This burgeoning military alliance between Russia and North Korea is significant.

You know, this shows that Putin is very desperate, and he has now abandoned all hopes of or any kind of -- you know, if there's no more joining the

West and wants to go out of his way to make sure that the U.S.-led international order collapses. It's a very concerning development.


We've had North Koreans sending munitions, artillery shells, and other military equipment to -- for Russia's war effort in Ukraine. We have some

10,000 containers of, you know, equipment that Russia -- the North Koreans have sent to Russia. But the key question always was, how much is -- you

know, how much willing is Putin able, you know, in terms of helping North Korea? What was he going to help North Korea with military sensitive

technologies that's going to help North Korea's WMD program?

And now, with this security clause, it's now very concerning that their relationship is no longer just marriage of, you know, convenience for a

little bit where Putin is just relying on some equipment coming to Ukraine. Now, they're bigger concern in terms of how much Russia can help North

Korea on North Korea's WMD program.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, it does appear that Vladimir Putin has crossed the Rubicon here and trying to rehabilitate himself ever. The global stage years to

come whenever the war with Ukraine does end. And given this new alliance with North Korea, as you mentioned, some 10,000 containers of munitions

have been transferred already, ballistic missiles also.

And as you note, that the real concern here is, yes, that is a short-term benefit for Vladimir Putin now on the battlefield. But longer-term, do you

think, at this point, at this stage, Vladimir Putin is willing to transfer technological insight and know-how to North Korea?

North Korea right now is in the process of developing hypersonic missiles as well. That's something that Russia has already boasted of achieving

before. Is this something that should be concerning for Washington?

S. TERRY: I think the Washington -- the Biden administration is very concerned about this as the South Korean government, the Yoon Suk Yeol

administration. You know, they're all questions about how much really can - - you know, what can -- what Putin was willing to do. And there are some arguments against that, right?

The munitions, the artillery shells that North Korea is providing Russia are -- they're archaic. They're not the most sophisticated kind of shells.

So, is Putin really willing to, you know, go as far as providing military technology, sensitive technologies to North Korea in return for this? But

it's increasingly looking like -- increasingly it looks like he's desperate. And so, we cannot rule it out.

And if you remember, if you recall, after Kim Jong Un visited Russia and met with Putin in September of last year, only two months later, North

Korea successfully launched a satellite when North Korea failed to do so the previous two times in the past year. So, even if Russians did not

directly help with technology, they were certainly involved in terms of giving guidance and advice and sharing their know-how.

So, this is a definitely a concern. I think it was intentional that the Russians and North Koreans have not explicitly stated exactly what kind of

help and aid that they're talking about or transfer of technology, but Putin himself said it's -- you know, they will share military technology. I

think he's -- that was his phrase.

Well, the question is, how sensitive? What kind of sensitive technology? But it is definitely a concern, and I'm sure the Biden administration is --

you know, this is one of the top concerns right now.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And Putin's aerospace chief accompanied him on this visit, as did his energy minister as well. I'm curious, Sue Mi, what does China

feel about this visit? How closely is Beijing watching? Because there wasn't -- there was a time not so long ago where not only China, but Russia

too, was working with the United States hoping to contain North Korea to some degree in their nuclear program. Obviously, things have changed

drastically here. But how is China watching all of this and interpreting it?

S. TERRY: China is watching this very warily. They have -- they're very conflicted about this. There's also loose alignment between China, Russia,

North Korea, and even Iran. But from China's perspective, one hand, it's OK for North Korea to get some economic aid and so on from Russia because

China is literally the only remaining patron. 90 percent of North Korea's trade is with China.

So, it could use -- you know, Russia could help North Korea stabilize North Korea and help bring it up economically. And because definitely China does

not want instability of the Korean Peninsula or a collapse of the Kim regime. But China is definitely concerned about this burgeoning military

alliance between Russia and North Korea.

And it's not in China's interest for North Korea to really advance their WMD capability and perfect their weapons, because look what's happening in

the region. Right now, we have South Korea, Japan, United States strengthening their trilateral relationship, right?


South Korea and Japan had always historically had very difficult and troubled relationship. But right now, they're working very closely

together. The Yoon Suk Yeol administration, the Kishida administration, and the Biden administration. And for -- from China's perspective, that's also

not a good development.

So, I think there's -- it's a very complicated mixed picture. China and North Korea relationship itself is complicated. Even though China is North

Korea's main ally and patron, it's not like there's a love affair there either. There is a lot of suspicion and mutual distrust. So, I think it's a

very complicated picture for China and they're watching it very, very closely.

GOLODRYGA: As you noted, Seoul is watching this closely as well. It was just last year that a new nuclear deterrents agreement was signed between

Seoul and the Biden administration. So, South Korea, not for lack of technology, but has not pursued a nuclear weapons program. Are they going

to be thinking twice about that and questioning real security promises from the United States if we do see further development and alignment between

Russia and North Korea on this front?

S. TERRY: You're absolutely right. There's already been a talk, increasing talk about whether South Korea need to develop their nuclear weapons too,

or at least bring tactical nuclear weapons back to South Korea. There are conservatives, there are hawks, there are people who are very concerned

about that, because North Korea's WMD threat has been growing in the past few years.

Ever since the collapse of the Hanoi Summit, North Korea has not been interested in returning to dialogue, and they've been advancing,

modernizing, diversifying their missile capability, and so on. Now, you add this development between Russia and North Korea, and now let's add another

development in November, this year, there's a presidential election in the United States.


S. TERRY: And if we have a different president, South Koreans are very concerned. We -- you know, Former President Trump often talked about the

need to have U.S. forces in South Korea, or need to reduce our troop presence in South Korea, it's too expensive to keep them there, and so on.

He made over 120 times since his 1990 Playboy interview when he talked about potentially reducing troops or, you know, our troops presence in

South Korea.

So, I think South Koreans are very nervous for a whole host of reasons, and it has to be in the back of their mind, even though there is -- you know,

they say for now that they're not going to pursue their own nuclear weapons capability, this is something that has to be on the table for the South

Korean government.

GOLODRYGA: This is a common thing we hear now, obviously, in Asia. We focus a lot about this same concern about trying to Trump-proof U.S. policy

with regards to alliances in NATO, specifically as it relates to Ukraine as well. You brought up Donald Trump. I want to play sound from you from his

national security adviser who spoke with Christiane yesterday, who was really promoting the strength that Trump brought to this issue, in his

view, and sitting down with Kim Jong Un, viewing that as a positive. Here's what he said.


ROBERT O'BRIEN, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: They changed tax and then we had some cordial diplomacy with them. And keep in mind, they

promised to denuclearize, they promised to end their nuclear program on the peninsula. Now, that did in fact end up happening and President Trump had

to walk away from the Hanoi Summit when Kim Jong Un tried to, you know, go back on that deal. But -- so we didn't have much progress after that.

But keep in mind, there was no nuclear testing during the entire Trump administration because we showed strength coupled with some tough



GOLODRYGA: What do you make of his comments?

S. TERRY: I would say the Trump administration showed strength in 2017 when he was pursuing maximum pressure policy, and we actually got China and

Russia to implement sanctions in 2017. But North Korea never agreed to denuclearize. They talked about the Singapore Summit, this aspirational

statement where North Korea said they would work towards denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. They're also talking about South Korea to not

giving up their nuclear program.

And in any case, the whole thing fell apart. You know, they were wildly misunderstanding ending each other. And when they showed up at the Hanoi

Summit, remember that whole thing fell apart. There was no deal to be had. And since then, North Korea has been just advancing their program.

And now, 2024 is not 2017 where we pursued maximum pressure policy. It's not even 2018 with summitry and diplomacy. It's a very different era,

different period, external environment. Now, this whole geopolitical environment is favorable for North Korea because China, Russia, you know,

they're not helping United States, certainly, curb North Korea's WMD program.


And Russia, by the way, just even recently -- even China and Russia, they couldn't even condemn intercontinental ballistic missile launch at the

United Nations. So, now, we have a complete impasse at United Nations as well.


S. TERRY: So, this geopolitical environment is very concerning for -- you know, for all of us, obviously.

GOLODRYGA: And it's a reminder that President Barack Obama, before he left office, and his words that he had advice to Donald Trump said that North

Korea is what's going to likely be keeping you up at night. Obviously, there are two hot wars that President Biden is focused on now, in Ukraine

and in Gaza. But another reminder of just how the dynamics have changed and perhaps, to some degree, to North Korea's favor in their pursuit of nuclear


Sue Mi Terry, thank you so much for joining the program. We really appreciate your expertise.

S. TERRY: Thank you for having me.

GOLODRYGA: Turning now to the United States, where people are celebrating Juneteenth, a day marking the end of slavery. And while it's ultimately a

time of celebration, it also gives us a chance to reflect on the ongoing fight for racial justice and equality in this country.

Christiane sat down with acclaimed civil rights lawyer and activist Bryan Stevenson. He's the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice

Initiative, and he joined Christiane from Montgomery, Alabama.


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Bryan Stevenson, welcome back to the program.


AMANPOUR: So, on this day, I just want to ask you the significance of where you are, because you've created a lot of important space, public,

memorial. Where are you now? What does it mean?

STEVENSON: Well, I'm in Montgomery, Alabama, at the original Legacy Museum, which is a space we created in 2018 to honor and acknowledge the

legacy of slavery. This space I'm in is on the site of a warehouse where enslaved people were held before they would be taken up the street and sold

in auctions.

And I do think it's been great to have Juneteenth help us begin to reckon with this long history that has so profoundly shaped America. I see

Juneteenth as sitting between two other American holidays, Memorial Day and Independence Day. And for me, Juneteenth is an opportunity to remember and

honor the 10 million black people who were enslaved in this country between 1619 and 1865 and to also celebrate the emancipation of 4 million people

who finally won freedom following the civil war.

There's so much we have to reckon with about this history that we really haven't done in the United States. And so, I'm thrilled to have spaces like

this to help begin that process.

AMANPOUR: And just tell us and lay it out for those who might not know, particularly for our international audience, what is the significance of

Juneteenth and the fact that enslaved people were still enslaved even after -- you know, after the end of the civil war in Texas?

STEVENSON: Sure. So, in 1863, Abraham Lincoln announced the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed enslaved people in the United States, but only in

the rebelling states of the Confederacy. And of course, because these states were at war with the United States, most of the 4 million people who

were impacted by the Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually get free. They were behind enemy lines. They were still captive by those trying to

preserve slavery.

After the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation should have taken effect all over the country. The passage of the 13th Amendment further confined

that, but there were still places in this country where enslavers refused to tell enslaved people that they were free. When federal troops got to

Texas, the word finally got out and people celebrated their freedom, even though it was months after the war had ended and almost two years after the

Emancipation Proclamation had been declared.

The term Juneteenth became a way of celebrating that belated announcement, that delayed announcement of freedom, and I think in the African American

community, it has become a day of remembrance for emancipation, not just for those who got the word late in Texas, but for all of the nearly 4

million people who had been held in bondage, who had suffered in these forced labor camps, who had been constrained and abused by slavery, to now

finally have an opportunity to move towards something that could be identified as freedom.

AMANPOUR: And of course, it was only after the murder of George Floyd that the government then finally created Juneteenth as a federal holiday, right?

But I want to bring back or refer back to what you just said. You know, you see it in the pantheon of great American national holidays.


Can I just read to you what Jelani Cobb wrote in "The New Yorker"? He's of course now the dean of the Columbia Journalism School, but he wrote,

"Juneteenth exists as a counterpoint to the 4th of July, the latter heralds the arrival of American ideals and the former stresses just how hard it has

been to live up to them."

What do you make of that? Is he right? And therefore, is Juneteenth something to celebrate or still be troubled by?

STEVENSON: I actually think it is a time to reflect on the tragic and painful history of slavery in America. We had 246 years in this country

where people were held in bondage, they were subjected to unbelievable abuse and degradation. We created narratives about enslaved black people,

where we said that black people aren't as good as white people. We created a narrative of racial hierarchy in this country that was defined by


Slavery in the United States was a permanent, hereditary condition, and that's something to mourn. Six million black people died enslaved. They

never had the opportunity to be free like other immigrants that came to this country. That's something to mourn. The abuse, the selling of half of

all enslaved people from their families. The sexual violence, the humiliation, the horrific physical violence, all of that is something to


But emancipation was something to celebrate. That 4 million people persevered despite the hardship of slavery, that 4 million people found

faith and joy in the midst of so much agony is an incredible legacy. And then the most important thing is that enslaved people in this country

learned to love in the midst of sorrow. And despite the horrors of enslavement, created generations of family and kinship.

I'm the descendant of enslaved people. I would not be here if my great grandparents hadn't found a way to love despite all of the horrors of

slavery and create a new generation. And we are the heirs of, yes, a lot of that trauma and abuse and degradation, but we also are the heirs of people

who learned to persevere, people who were resilient, people who found a way to resist, people who knew their humanity and their dignity despite what

the law said about them. And that is something to celebrate.

The strength and power of enslaved people, I feel, empowers me, energizes me. And I think both of those realities can be contained within this

holiday. The grief, the mourning of people who were treated horrifically, abused, and denied freedom, but also the power, the capacity of people to

love despite all of those hurdles, that's something to celebrate.

AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about more hurdles. To be -- I mean, just rushing to get put up by the Supreme Court votes by, you know, certainly under the

Trump administration. So, if Congress won't pass voting rights legislation, Supreme Court won't uphold current laws, well, obviously there's been

progress, but there seems to be so much pushback.

STEVENSON: No, you're absolutely right. We are still in the middle of a really important narrative struggle in the United States for what it means

to actually achieve freedom. And I do think the historical context is important.

After emancipation, our Congress passed the 14th Amendment, which guaranteed equal protection to formerly enslaved people. They passed the

15th Amendment, which guaranteed the right to vote. But those rights were not enforced because we were more committed in America to maintaining

racial hierarchy, to maintaining white supremacy than enforcing the rule of law.

And so, we've known for a very long time that law alone will not achieve the kind of justice -- the kind of equality that we seek in this country.

It took 100 years. Between the late 1860s until that horrific and challenging but triumphant struggle in the 1960s to create a Voting Rights

Act, another law designed to enforce these rights. But that narrative of maintaining racial hierarchy, it was still with us.

And even though we passed the civil rights laws in 1964 and the voting rights laws in 1965, there were a lot of people in this country that

resisted and rejected the idea that black people should be equal to white people. And that's why I think the great challenge we face in this country

is a narrative challenge.

Yes, we have to have the rule of law, but we also have to push back against these ideas we have inherited that somehow black people are not as good as

white people, that black people are less capable, less worthy, less trustworthy. And that's the fundamental challenge that I believe we have to

approach. We never really had the transitional justice that other countries that deal with horrific human rights abuses have had.


In South Africa, there was a process of truth and reconciliation after apartheid collapse. They gave voice to the victims of apartheid to speak to

their harm and their injury. And the perpetrators had an opportunity to give voice to their wrongdoing. In Berlin, in Germany, you see a country

and a city that engaged in transitional justice.

Now in Berlin, you can't go 200 meters without seeing markers and stones placed next to the homes of people who were killed during the Holocaust.

There's a landscape that is trying to reckon with the horrors of that. Every student in Germany is required to study the Holocaust. You can't

graduate without that. But here in the United States, we have states passing laws trying to make it illegal, impermissible for people to study

these histories, and that just speaks to the challenge that we face.

And so, we are in the middle of it, and we have a lot of work to do, which is why I am persuaded that we need an era of truth and justice, truth and

repair, truth and restoration, truth telling about this history.

AMANPOUR: And also, on the campaign trail, this is an election year, Donald Trump is desperately trying to court the black vote, and he keeps

saying that he was and he will be much better for African-Americans than Biden. Biden and Kamala Harris got 92 percent of the black vote nationally

back in 2020. But as you know, these figures have been slipping dramatically.

What is going to happen? Talking about the narrative.

STEVENSON: Yes. Well, I mean, I'm not sure I embrace that framing, because I think, you know, if a candidate gets 92 percent of the black vote, a

whole community of people from different perspectives. I mean, you know, the black community is much more diverse than it's ever been in the history

of this country. We have black immigrants from Africa. We have people from the West Indies. We have people in different economic situations.

And so, if a candidate gets 92 percent of that vote, you'd have to say that candidate is doing very well with that community. I can't think of a white

community -- a white candidate that could claim that kind of success with any other community -- ethnic community in this country. There is shifting

because I think the community is shifting. We have more people who are African-American who are affluent.

But I'm still actually pretty amazed that the African-American community still votes with largely one voice. There is an alignment with the values

and the norms that emphasize equality and freedom and opportunity. There is still a really powerful instinct in the black community in this country to

help the poor, to help those who are marginalized, to respond to the challenges that we face when we throw people away. And I think that's the

really overwhelming narrative.

There is some movement, I don't disagree with that. And I think what any candidate has to do to maintain support, to get support from the African-

American community, and again, it's not a single perspective, is to reinforce these values and norms that we talk so much about.

We're still not free yet. There's a presumption of dangerousness and guilt that gets assigned to black and brown people. And it doesn't matter how

wealthy you are or how kind you are or how talented you are, you can go places where you have to navigate a presumption of dangerousness and guilt.

And our political and elected officials need to help us eradicate, eliminate that burden because it's unfair.

I'm a lawyer. I'm a middle-aged black man. I've got all of these degrees. I've won cases at the Supreme Court, and I still go to places where I'm

viewed as less than, where I'm presumed to be the defendant or presumed to be dangerous just because of the way I appear, and that's a heavy burden. I

can tell you because I'm getting older that when you're constantly navigating these presumptions of dangerousness and guilt, it's exhausting.


STEVENSON: And we want something better. And I continue to believe that there is something that feels more like freedom, more like equality, more

like justice. And I think it's waiting for us. And so, we want candidates that are going to help us advance that.

And to be honest, I haven't heard much, frankly from Donald Trump and many others in that camp that speaks to that history. So, we'll see what happens

in the election. But I frankly think we've got a lot of critical issues in this country and I don't see the dynamic around who champions those issues

shifting very much over the next six months.

AMANPOUR: And just a final personal question. You mentioned you're a lawyer and you've done so much in the legal field. You've also, since 2018,

stepped out into the public art and, you know, public memorial space. What has inspired you to do that? Do you think you now can accomplish more doing

that kind of thing than, you know, trying to litigate in the courts?

STEVENSON: Yes, I definitely now believe that it's going to require both activity in the law. I still believe in the rule of law and advancing the

rule of law, creating rights for people who have been disfavored and marginalized. That's still really important to me. I'm a product of Brown

versus Board of Education. The Supreme Court decision that struck down segregation in education.


But I have become worried that we might not be able to win Brown versus Board of Education today because this narrative has emerged that equality

isn't that important. Eliminating racial bias and addressing the legacy of slavery isn't that important. And that's where I think the arts and truth

telling has become so important. That's why we've created these legacy sites, the legacy museum, The National Memorial for Peace and Justice,

which documents the lynching of thousands of black people who were pulled out of their homes and tortured and beaten and killed.

Our new freedom monument sculpture park, which tries to address the legacy of slavery. These things are important to me now, because I think it's

going to take that narrative work to move us forward. When you're enslaved, you have to focus on freedom. You have to focus on emancipation. When

you're dealing with terror violence and lynching, you have to focus on security. When you're disenfranchised and excluded, you have to focus on

civil rights.

Now, in the 21st century, I think we have to focus on this narrative struggle, lifting up these ideas of equality and freedom and making them

meaningful to everyone. Pushing back against this idea that stratification has any place in a society that claims to be the leader of the free world,

and I'm hoping these sites can play a critical role in that.

And, you know, as the great-grandson of people who were enslaved, my great- grandfather was enslaved in Caroline County, Virginia. There were anti- literacy laws that prohibited him from learning to read or write, but he wasn't defined by that. He learned to read or write. And when emancipation

came, he read the newspaper to people who didn't know how to read. He taught my grandmother, who worked as a domestic her whole life, to value

reading and education. She gave that to my mother. We grew up poor in a racially segregated community, but my mom bought us books so we could see a

bigger world.

And I am the heir of a community of people who believe in fighting for justice, pushing past these things. And whether that's in court, with the

law, or in these narrative spaces, I think the goal is the same, which is to let truth and justice really finally be seen in this country, because I

think it's the path to liberation, it's the path to the kind of society most of us want to live in.

AMANPOUR: Bryan Stevenson, thank you so much for being with us for Juneteenth.

STEVENSON: My pleasure.


GOLODRYGA: And a last note on Bryan Stevenson's focus on historical narrative, The Equal Justice Initiative's Legacy Sites Program -- Project

continues to grow with the opening of the Freedom Monument Sculpture Park in Montgomery this spring.

Well, we turn now to another celebration of African-American culture. This time through food. Bryant Terry is an award-winning vegan chef and author

of six books, including "Black Food: Stories, Art, and Recipes from Across the African Diaspora." In honor of Juneteenth, he joins Michel Martin to

discuss the evolution of his ancestor's cuisine through the lens of migration, identity, and resilience.


MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Bryant Terry, thank you so much for joining us.

BRYANT TERRY, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND AUTHOR, "BLACK FOOD": Thank you so much for having me on, Michel. It's great to see you again.

MARTIN: It's great to see you. You are an award-winning chef, author, cookbook author, you know, activist. And one of your signatures is to kind

of connect the food, not just with health and with enjoyment, but with the culture.

Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery and more broadly, kind of African- American resilience and resistance. How do you think food fits into that?

B. TERRY: Yes, that's a great question. So, as you mentioned, we know that Juneteenth commemorates the ending of slavery in the United States, and it

has a specific geographic context in Texas, but it's moved beyond there. And since it's a national holiday now it has evolved into a day of

reflection, celebration, and education about black history and culture.

And, you know, because of the work that I do around health, food, and farming issues, and because I just love to eat, I'm always thinking about

different cultural holidays. Our cultural holidays through the lens of food. And we know that food has always played a central role in cultural

expression, community building, and survival in the black community. We can go back to the civil rights movement. We think about, you know, so many of

the restaurants and home cooks who supported black activists.

In fact, so many of the -- so much of the strategizing and organizing happen in home kitchens. We think about someone like Fannie Lou Hamer, who,

you know, we often associate with electoral politics and a lot of people aren't aware that Fannie Lou Hamer started the Freedom Farm in Mississippi,

which had over 600 acres of land. They had affordable housing, acres and acres of farmland and educational workshops to empower the community.


You know, but I want to just mention one of my biggest inspirations, and that was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, colloquially known as

the Black Panthers. And, you know, while the popular media often paints them as kind of angry militants, they had a number of meaningful and

powerful programs that were aimed at meeting the basic needs and communities. And a number of them looked at health, specifically food,

their grocery giveaways and their free breakfast for children program in which they were feeding children, hot, nourishing breakfasts every single


And so, you know, when I think about this -- all these things that predates the type of activism that I currently do around these issues, it only makes

sense that, you know, we think about Juneteenth and just all the connections with the kind of transfer of ingredients from the African

continent to the new world as well as cooking techniques. So, I use it as a time to celebrate food.

MARTIN: You know, people often think of African-American cuisine or traditional African-American cuisine as slave food, right? What was created

from the remnants, the leftover, the least desirable portions, as it were. You really -- talk about resistance, you really resist that narrative. You

want to say more about that? Why you think that that's not really quite right and why you push hard against that?

B. TERRY: Well, I think in general, in the popular imagination, there are these very reductive ways that we think about black food, specifically food

in, you know, the United States. And so, as you mentioned, there are kind of these two strains that I've seen people talk about. They even talk about

the antebellum survival food, upon which many enslaved Africans relied. And, you know, people often talk disparagingly about that food. You know,

I've heard it referred to a slave food.

And as you mentioned, there are -- this kind of history of often plantation owners giving enslaved Africans, the worst parts of the animals, the animal

viscera, or the discarded parts of the vegetable. And one, you know, let's not mention the fact that there were free black people, every Black person

in the United States, a person of African descent, wasn't enslaved. But the other thing is that the institution of slavery wasn't a monolith. So, maybe

in the Deep South, the Black Belt it was more of a paternalistic system in which every need of enslaved Africans was provided by plantation owners.

But it -- you know, the institution of slavery looked different the way that enslaved Africans might grow food, cook it, and eat it in the Coastal

Carolinas, look different than it did in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennessee, and that look different than it did in Louisiana, and that

looked different than it did in Bahia, Brazil.

And so, to reduce it to just slave foods, you know, erases this history of enslaved Africans, maybe having a garden in which they could grow their own

food for their families or having a day off where they can hunt for protein. But the other strand that I see are the kind of big flavored meats

that we might find in a soul food restaurant or the, you know, sugary desserts or overcooked vegetables.

And here's the thing. I'm not denying any of those things. Chitlins and pig's feet and red velvet cake and macaroni and cheese, all these things

are part of this very diverse cuisine that we have. But when I think about the type of food that my grandfather and his parents and, you know, so many

of our ancestors, they were growing and eating things like nutrient rich collards, mustards, turnips, kale, dandelions, sugar snap peas, pole beans,

sweet potatoes, black eyed peas. These are the type of foods, Michel, as you know, that any Western trained physician or, you know, dietitian or

nutritionist would say we should all eat.

And so, I simply want to uplift and highlight those nutrient rich, healthful foods that are part of our tradition so that we have a more

holistic understanding of the type of foods that we've grown and eaten historically.

MARTIN: How did it start for you?

B. TERRY: Well, I can tell you about the period when I -- you know, there is a stereotype, Michel. I'm sure you've kind of heard or seen the

stereotype of the self-righteous, dogmatic, judgmental vegans, right? The people that are wagging their finger at you because you're not eating a

vegan diet, even though they just converted to veganism like the week before. So, that was me in high school.

And, you know, one of the powerful things that really helped transform my habits and attitudes and politics regarding food was a hip hop song. The

song "Beef" by the hip hop group Boogie Down Productions, one of the seminal hip hop groups.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beef, what a relief. When will this poisonous product cease? This is another public service announcement. You can believe it, or

you can doubt it. Let us begin now with the power --


B. TERRY: It just really blew me away and just transformed everything for me because they were talking about factory farming. I had no idea that

animals in our industrialized food system had to endure so much violence. And as a young person, you know, it had such an impact on me.

And you know, the thing is, I always talk about just that kind of like abrasive period that I went through, and I think it's just natural for a

young person to have a shift in worldview and to feel very zealous about, you know, trying to change the world.


But once again, you know, what I've seen is that rather than proselytizing, the most powerful way that I've engaged people is by doing practical

things, teaching people cooking skills, writing cookbooks, providing people with delicious food. And then, that is such a powerful way to kind of

transform people's hearts, minds, and spirits.

MARTIN: What made you become a chef?

B. TERRY: It was really the politics of food that moved me towards, you know, just going to culinary school and thinking about using food as a kind

of transformative tool. And it started when I was a doctoral student in history at NYU, when I was doing research on the Black Panthers.

They were, you know, doing all these programs around health, like addressing medical apartheid and doing -- testing for sickle cell anemia.

But the one that transformed me the most was their free breakfast for children program This was started in 1969 in January of that year. And by

the end of the year, it had spread to every major city that had a Black Panther chapter, and they were feeding over 10,000 children every single


And I just remember this kind of, like, moment of clarity. I was on the subway one morning going to the village to teach a class and I saw these

kids on the subway eating red hot Cheetos and candy bars and sugary donuts and they were drinking sodas and energy drinks. And I realized that these

kids, as my mentor, Raj Patel would say, they're being stuffed and starved. They're eating a lot, but they're empty calories.

And I realized that the type of -- the spirit of the activism back in the '60s and the '70s, we needed it now. And so, I want it to be a food justice

activist to make an intervention. But I didn't want to just, you know, be in the realm of like ideas and politics. I wanted to do something that felt

practical, that felt immediate, that felt like it was giving young people skills.

And so, I started an organization be healthy that use cooking as a way to wake up these young people to the realities of our food system, but also

give them the skills so that when they were adults, they would actually be able to make meals from themselves, go shopping, prepare the food, and

then, you know, really have this kind of sustenance-based approach to taking care of their -- themselves and their families.

MARTIN: Have you seen a change over the time that since you've been working as a chef and also as a cookbook author? Have you seen a change? I

know, like, thinking about, like, one of your first books, "Afro-Vegan," you know, a lot of people, I think, might have been surprised that somebody

like you even exists.

B. TERRY: That book was published a decade ago. We just celebrated the 10- year anniversary. And it's been so encouraging, I have to say, to see so many people who are, I'll say, open to eating more plant-based foods, even

people who aren't necessarily trying to embrace a full-on vegan or plant- based diet. What I've seen are people are open to doing meatless Mondays, or people are open to doing, you know, one meal a day that has, you know, a

vegan meal and no animal products.

And what that says to me is that more people understand the -- I mean, look, the data is out. We know that having a more plant centered diet, it's

more nutrient dense, it tends to be more helpful and people just feel lighter.

And that's -- you know, Michel, you've seen me on this journey for a decade. And I just want to say that that has been my approach. You can

start with the heady intellectual ideas or the politics, but a lot of times when you start there, people run away. But my approach has been starting

with the food, because I think a lot of people have these negative perceptions of what plant-based cuisine is. And what I've seen is when you

serve people delicious food, that's devoid of animal products, they're often surprised and it makes them more open to eating this type of food.

I will say that one thing that has been a little frustrating to me is that it seems that a lot of people feel like, you know, spending their dollars

in alignment with their values is enough. You know, if I just go to the big corporate market and I buy all this, you know, vegan and organic food, then

I'm doing my job. And I think that is important to spend our dollars in alignment with our values. But I also think that we need to think about the

larger structural reasons that many communities don't have access to healthy, fresh food. They don't have access to supermarkets.

So, I always encourage people to think about, well, how can you get involved with your community to ensure that everyone has a human right to

healthy, fresh, affordable, and, you know, plant centered food?

MARTIN: Do you feel like you're making headway?

B. TERRY: Oh, for sure. You know the thing that lets me know that I'm making headway is this generation of young cookbook authors and chefs and

food justice activists who are in the streets doing it big.

I turn 50 this year. So, I'm an old man now. And just as I'm standing on the shoulders of so many of my ancestors who come before me, whether it's

Fannie Lou Hamer, or, you know, activists like Dick Gregory, or the, you know, MC Cara (ph) is one, Vertamae Smart-Grosvenor, the anthropologist and

cookbook writer.


I hope that many of this younger generation see themselves standing on my shoulders. And I, you know, imagine that they're going to take this so much

further than I could ever imagine. So, I'm hopeful. I'm so hopeful.

MARTIN: One of your latest books, your 2021 book called "Black Food: Stories, Art, and Recipes from Across the African Diaspora" won a bunch of

awards. It was hailed as one of the most critically acclaimed American cookbooks that year. Are there one or two stories or essays that really

stands out to you or recipes for that matter that really stands out to you?

B. TERRY: We put that book together in nine months. And we started working on it in 2020 when the -- U.S. was kind of reckoning with the ways in which

we've treated African-Americans historically and contemporaneously. I knew that I saw an anthology like black food that brought together scholars and

chefs and artists and activists from around the globe as something that I do later in my career.

But in that moment, I realized that there was a sense of urgency to do it then because it was revealed there was a lot of racism within the

publishing industry. And, you know, there was a lot of highlighting of the ways in which, you know, authors of color and black authors were having a

harder time getting their work published.

And so, I just felt like this was the moment and I reached out to friends around the globe to be a part of this book and I couldn't be more proud. My

favorite aspect of the book is the artwork. Every chapter starts with a piece of art that I got permission or either had artists kind of create our

original piece that really encapsulated the ideas and the content within.

And, you know, I just -- as an educator, I'm always thinking about the multiple ways that people learn. Some people who've been formally educated

there, they can dig deeply into, you know, a heady intellectual essay, but then some people might be more moved by an image that really just speaks

to, you know, these issues that we're covering. Some people might be moved by the poetry in the book. Others are just going to see it as a book that

they use in their kitchen.

So, when I wrote the book or when I conceived of it, I said, I want this to book -- be a book that moved from one's kitchen to their nightstand, to

their coffee table. And the response has been so tremendous. And you know, here we are, what, three years later after book is being published, and

we're still talking about it, and I hope that we're still talking about it 30 years from now.

MARTIN: OK. Well, for the moment though, some people do want those recipes. So, while people are planning their Juneteenth get togethers, what

do you recommend? Any recommendations?

B. TERRY: Oh, my gosh. My favorite recipe in the book, forks down, is this blueberry vegan cheesecake by this brilliant pastry chef, Malcolm

Livingston. And to be clear, this recipe -- this cookbook has, you know, dozens of recipes, but they aren't all vegan. And it was a decision I had

to make as an editor to really give the contributors a space to, you know, write or contribute the recipe that made sense for them or told their

family's story.

I love Nicole Taylor, a good friend of mine who actually has a book about Juneteenth that's brilliant, "Watermelon and Red Birds." She does this

cocoa baked fish recipe and people would think cocoa and fish, but it's absolutely brilliant and scrumptious. There are a lot of good, you know,

drink recipes, Toni Tipton-Martin, the cookbook author and editor does a recipe. I think it's a whiskey sour.

So, there's just so many great recipes in there. And you know, I think in terms of menu planning for Juneteenth or otherwise, this is a powerful


MARTIN: This will help you out. All right. Before we let you go, I have to put you on the spot. What is your celebration food? What is your kind of

go-to for a get together day like Juneteenth?

B. TERRY: If I have to make a dish, if it's just like one thing that's emblematic of my love, it's Hoppin' John. Black-eyed peas, rice, that, you

know, rich tomato sauce. That's hands down my favorite dish today.

MARTIN: That's got to be there.

B. TERRY: Yes.

MARTIN: All right. Bryant Terry, thank you so much for talking with us and happy Juneteenth.

B. TERRY: Happy Juneteenth. Thank you so much, Michel.


GOLODRYGA: And finally, we remember a giant in more than one way. Hall of Fame baseball player Willie Mays has died at 93 years old. Known as the Say

Hey Kid for the way he enthusiastically greeted others, he was among the first generation of African-American players in Major League Baseball. He

dominated the game for decades, playing 23 seasons, mostly for the New York, then San Francisco Giants.


His famous over the shoulder catch during the World Series in 1954, remains one of the most iconic moments ever seen in baseball. Finishing with 660

career home runs and winning 12 Gold Glove Awards, he was a force, both at bat and in the field. Here he tells Larry King how he overcame prejudice

with his talent for the game.


WILLIE MAYS, BASEBALL LEGEND: The only town I had a problem with was Hagerstown, Maryland. I had a very, very (INAUDIBLE). I started on a Friday

afternoon, and they called me all kinds of names there. But by Sunday, there was all clapping because --


GOLODRYGA: Mays' legacy on and off the field inspired generations and will continue to do so.

And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, remember, you can catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.

Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.